Little River "White Water" - Micro-channel jet-impingement water-block

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11-17-2002, 04:08 AM
Cathar

Little River "White Water" - Micro-channel jet-impingement water-block

Hi All,

Just discovered these forums. Many names here familiar to me. I thought I'd share this water-block that I've been developing here with you guys.

A while ago I developed a concept prototype block that focused on merging the concepts of jet-impingement, micro-channels, and ultra-thin bases, that focussed purely on cooling CPU dies of the P4/AMD size, and making no concessions for peltier cooling performance. That is, I wanted to see if water-block performance had reached a peak since all the current designs are performing roughly the same, or if there was more to be gained.

The "journey" is detailed in a monster thread over at Overclocker's Australia here.

After much research, and development with a very friendly batch of machinists, the near-final blocks look like this:

http://www.employees.org/~slf/concept/prod2.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~slf/concept/prod3.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~slf/concept/prod1.jpg

Note that in this picture the nozzle in the central plate differs slightly from the final design. We've just moved house and I've packed up my digital camera so a more up to date picture will have to wait.

The top plate uses 3 x 1/2" barbs (with 3/8" BSP/NPT threads - meaning that if you wanted to fit 5/8" barbs this would not be a problem), 1 inlet in the middle, through the nozzle in the middle plate jetting down and impinging directly over the CPU core area, then splitting out to the two outlets. The two outlets are merged back together again by an external Y-piece.

The total block dimensions are 80mm x 50mm x 12.5mm (not including the barbs) and will fit a Socket A motherboard through the 4 mounting holes. An additional aluminium mounting plate with longer clamping screws is an optional extra for Intel P4 Socket 478 mounting.

So how does it perform?

Performance of the final design is slightly better than the prototype that I demonstated in the OCAU thread mentioned above. For an AthlonXP @ 1925MHz/2.15v I'm seeing >5C better full load on-die temperatures on my motherboard than with either a properly lapped and mounted Silverprop Cyclone 5, or a properly lapped and mounted Maze 3 (both of which perform about the same being within 0.5C of each other). For a Duron @ 1200MHz/2.15v the difference is 3C, for a P4 @ 2.6GHz/1.8v the difference is also 3C. For me, a better overclock of the CPU was achieved in all cases.

People who have gotten a block off me have reported performance increases ranging from 4-6C over their old waterblocks, which have included Maze 3, Silverprop Cyclone 5, DTek TC-4, Swiftech MCW462-UH for Athlons, and a 3-5C gain vs the Maze 3 on P4 systems.

I've since had a batch of blocks made up and a few people have acquired some from me. There's a results comparison thread over here which seems to back up my own research:

http://forums.overclockers.com.au/sh...hreadid=109948

Basically the block was designed on a thermal simulator I wrote, and I then tweaked it through several revisions via a very tolerant group of excellent machinists who made the block up for me. The size of the cooling performance really surprised me. I had begun to think there for a while that we really had reached a peak in block performance.

Cheers.
11-17-2002, 02:29 PM
docah

I love your block man. As things stand right now i have 2 danger den maze 2's so i'm not in need of a new one. That block is truly something innovative and i look foreward to seeing more from you in the future!
11-17-2002, 03:06 PM
N8

Cathar,

Welcome to Xtreme :)

Glad you found your way here, I am SLO_N8 @ O/C.

This block rocks, guys...I'm seriously thinking of getting one myself :D
11-19-2002, 07:56 PM
Crazymofo

Cather, Love the block, I suspect you'll be having a lot of these made, no? I really hope I can get one!

:toast:
11-20-2002, 02:40 AM
Cathar

Quote:

Originally posted by Crazymofo
Cather, Love the block, I suspect you'll be having a lot of these made, no? I really hope I can get one!

I had a batch of 50 made and can supply one to anyone world-wide. Just email or PM me. Presently it's a non-profit thing and the price reflects all my initial overhead and investments in getting the block designed and made, divided by the 50 blocks I had made in the batch. The response so far has been very good though, so much so that I'm in the process of forming a small company to make these things plus GPU and peltier blocks.
11-20-2002, 06:08 AM
Torinalth

please let me know when you are going with a peltier block.... I'd love to try one for my p4.

Torinalth
11-20-2002, 07:31 AM
N8

I've still yet to read anything bad about Cathar's block. All praises so far :D
11-20-2002, 09:04 AM
sjohnson

Any hopes these will scale (and be produced :) ) for GPU and/or NB cooling?

Really like the reviews and looks of that block!
11-20-2002, 02:58 PM
Cathar

Quote:

Originally posted by sjohnson
Any hopes these will scale (and be produced :) ) for GPU and/or NB cooling?

Really like the reviews and looks of that block!

GPU block is on the way. ETA - 2nd week of December.
11-22-2002, 02:12 AM
Hua Luo Han

Nice work Cather, heard alot about your design and how they're being "copied", really looking forward to own one of your master piece......Cheers !!!
11-22-2002, 05:51 AM
N8

Hua Luo Han,

Welcome to Xtreme :)

Cathar,

Anxious to see some pics of that GPU block ;)
11-23-2002, 12:29 AM
MCWB

Ahhh this block is AWESOME!! :D

3.5°C better than my old C5, and holds my XP1700 Prime stable at 2028 MHz.

http://members.optushome.com.au/mcwb...-2028-2.06.gif

With the C5, it would fail at 2028 after about 2 min. A higher OC and 3.5°C cooler? I'm allergic to bananas, but what the hell! :p :banana: :banana: :banana:

Great stuff Cathar! :toast:
11-23-2002, 01:14 AM
seversphere

the inside of the bottom part - is it rough or is that just the angle of the metal to the flash making it look that light?
11-23-2002, 01:29 AM
MCWB

I'm not sure if it's what you mean, but there are small thin walls on the baseplate. This is looking down the middle barb of my block:

http://members.optushome.com.au/mcwb/microchannels.jpg
11-23-2002, 01:43 AM
seversphere

from the little bit I could see it doesn't look roughed up. Roughed up meaning 60grit sandpaper to rough up the surface.

I would really like to see a test block of the same design but with the bottom part "roughed" up. Maybe not as rough at 60 grit . . .
but where ever you can especially in the micro channels.

I'm mainly interested in whether you lose performance or if there is no gain.
11-23-2002, 02:42 AM
Cathar

The internals of the blocks and channels are bead blasted. It looks like 80-grit sandpaper.
11-23-2002, 05:03 AM
seversphere

so it does help to create lots of vortex/turbulence thus improve heat transfer . . .

:banana:
11-25-2002, 05:32 AM
Tweaked!

Cathar, Hua Luo Han, MCWB,

Welcome to Xtreme!:D

Cather, love your design. :)
11-25-2002, 09:50 AM
zippyc

Waiting with interest....

I ordered a block from Cathgar on Friday. I'm looking forward to comparing it against my geminicool.com hi-flo spiral. Will post results here if ya'll would like (yup, I am a Texan.)

Zippyc
11-25-2002, 12:49 PM
Cathar

Re: Waiting with interest....

Quote:

Originally posted by zippyc
I ordered a block from Cathgar on Friday. I'm looking forward to comparing it against my geminicool.com hi-flo spiral. Will post results here if ya'll would like (yup, I am a Texan.)

Zippyc

Shipping out this morning....
11-27-2002, 06:36 AM
SuperFreak

This is what you can expect to recieve from Cathar when ordering his block.

http://www.thesuperfreak.com/images/white_water01.jpg

http://www.thesuperfreak.com/images/white_water02.jpg

http://www.thesuperfreak.com/images/white_water03.jpg

This thing is a work of art I should have it up and running later today when my new mobo arrives and I will then post results between my current D-Tek Spir@l and this White Water.
11-27-2002, 07:15 AM
N8

SuperFreak,

Welcome to Xtreme :)

Great first post ;)

I have that same D-Tek Spir@l & I'm very anxious to see your results :D
11-29-2002, 01:22 PM
SuperFreak

N8, you have to get one of these things it owns my spir@al

I have it up and running now and I must say it is everything he says it is. The following results are from a xp1600+ @ 1900, 1.85v
The temps are taken from an inline temp probe for the water and and external probe placed on the cpu as close to the core as possible.
Idle temps obtained by surfing the web and load temps obtained by running BurnK7 for 45 minutes.

Idle temps

D-Tek Spir@l:
water temp - 25c
cpu - 35c

White Water:
water temp - 26c
cpu - 31c

Load temps

D-Tek Spir@l
water temp - 28c
cpu - 41c

White Water:
water temp - 29c
cpu - 35c
11-29-2002, 02:49 PM
KnightElite

Awesome results SuperFreak... I can't wait for the TEC version of this bad boy. Excellent work on the block Cathar.
11-30-2002, 12:35 PM
charlie

Does it mount directly into the 4 holes in the P4 motherboard?
(the holes for the oem retention clips)
Then how does it mount to AMD? Very cool! Have any more left? A website?
C
11-30-2002, 02:58 PM
Cathar

Quote:

Originally posted by charlie
Does it mount directly into the 4 holes in the P4 motherboard?
(the holes for the oem retention clips)
Then how does it mount to AMD? Very cool! Have any more left? A website?
C

It mounts directly into the 4 Socket A (AMD) holes.

For P4/Hammer there is an additional aluminium mounting place that fits over the barbs and clamps the block together. The one plate allows mounting through either the 4 P4 mounting holes, or the two Hammer mounting holes.

The stock Socket A block looks like the following:

http://www.employees.org/~slf/concept/shiny2.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~slf/concept/shiny3.jpg

...and borrowing from a customer's image, here what it looks like with the P4 mounting plate in place:

http://home.attbi.com/~rbmccall2000/...8/site1204.JPG

Note that in this picture the plate does not have the additional Hammer mounting holes which will be present in plates shipped in the coming week.
12-02-2002, 05:58 AM
Crazymofo

Cather, Man every time I see this block I just start foaming at the mouth. Just wondering how production is working out, like is there any shortages? I'm going to be ordering after the first of the year due to the holidays and all. Also wondering what the ETA is on production of a radeon 9700 block or Geforce 4 will be?

Superfreak is absolutely correct when he says this thing is a work of art.

Cant wait to get mine!!
12-02-2002, 02:08 PM
Cathar

Quote:

Originally posted by Crazymofo
Just wondering how production is working out, like is there any shortages? I'm going to be ordering after the first of the year due to the holidays and all. Also wondering what the ETA is on production of a radeon 9700 block or Geforce 4 will be?

Production is working out just fine. My machining shop (like all others) is flat out pre-Christmas but I have enough of a batch made up to last me through to the New Year - I hope.

I've got to submit some plans for the GPU blocks to the machine shop but haven't been in a rush because they don't have the time to do it presently. I'm also waiting for final confirmation that the new GF-FX video cards have the same mounting as the GF4Ti's. I had originally planned to have the GPU blocks out pre-Christmas but it doesn't look like that will happen, but not such a bad thing as it means the GPU block will have a confirm greater model compatibility.
12-29-2002, 07:51 AM
gurdas

hi cathar, i signed up primarily to say hello to you and just to say that i think that is a fantastic design. im building a watercooling box at the moment and was going to go for a maze 3 block, but after seeing this i want one!

if you could email me at gurdas.sidhu@ntlworld.com with pricing and shipping pricing to the UK. i will defintily spread the word to the uk overclockers over here. im a member of overclockers.co.uk am im sure they will like this very much.

thanks
looking forward to your email
01-07-2003, 07:29 AM
Gruvin2

I have been reading for a week now on every site i can find on watercooling ..and Cathar's block is the current leader. I'm hopeing to get one myself by end of month for my setup. Here is a link to the "White Water" block. Cathar i hope there will be one left for me! :) Oh and Gurdas, your best bet is to Email him for a faster response, as im sure he is busy.

http://www.teamster469.com/lr_rapids.htm
01-07-2003, 08:06 PM
Cathar

Gurdas and I have already been in contact.

I'll be making these blocks as long as there is demand.
01-10-2003, 08:21 PM
Kunaak

I know this is must be very elementry, but how does the waterblock work, do you have pictures of it set up?
I'd like to see that.

I am most curious about your GPU block, my current Dangerden one is well enough, but the design leaves alot to be desired in my opinion, it's alittle ugly.

if your GPU block has the same sort of innovation and clean solid design, then it should be a winner as well.

you should get something to protect your designs, it's kinda common to see something here, then a month later see it as a mass produced WC part...

(no names, don't wanna start wars, but plenty of people know the feeling of watching thier designs get snapped up from here)
01-12-2003, 05:47 PM
Crazymofo

Hey Cather, hope you're still watching this thead? I was wondering something, is this guy http://jpiperformance.com/ legit?? If he is are you going to be supplying him with blocks for awhile?
01-12-2003, 06:07 PM
Cathar

Yes, JPI Performance is definitely legitimate. We're old buddies.

Still, I make the blocks and whether you buy from him or direct from me, the issue for me is that I still have to make enough blocks. He has limited stock currently and I won't be able to start to make any more blocks until the 27th of January as I'll be out of the country on a business trip.

ie. once JPI runs out, there'll be no more blocks until about the 30th (once I crank a few more out) and probably until the 2nd week of Feb for JPI (until I can crank a few more out and send off to him).
01-12-2003, 09:02 PM
Radea

Hehe, JP. He makes the best Rad's there are. Ive got my eye set on a monolith...or at least a XLR120+scoop :).
01-13-2003, 12:02 PM
Crazymofo

Thanks Cather since he is in the states I figured the shipping would be less, he is in the states isn't he? Thanks for the info on the blocks I hope to get one soon!
01-25-2003, 10:35 PM
Craig

Any plans to send a block to Bill Adams for bench testing?
01-25-2003, 11:30 PM
Cathar

Just got back into Australia today. Very tired after the 20 hours of travel...

Bill Adams has reviewed the block. His review will be posted at overclockers.com on Monday (I think - I don't have any control over that).
01-26-2003, 09:36 AM
Craig

That is great CAthar, I hope your block does well.

Sales still moving well for you? Yourself and JP should do well in the states. His rad & your block should be a hot kit that none of the other kits out now can touch. Be a good deal for you both.
01-29-2003, 09:38 PM
Hua Luo Han

:thumbsup: Well done !!! Ordering soon :toast:
01-29-2003, 10:58 PM
Craig

:toast: Did great. :toast:
02-15-2003, 03:07 AM
Cathar

Overclocking the TBred

Well I decided to do a little "max overclock" of my XP2100+

This is all I managed to get it too. ;)

http://www.employees.org/~slf/images/2766.jpg

Not bad for a water-cooled $90 CPU eh?
02-15-2003, 07:57 AM
SuperFreak

Nice work Cathar!!!

Hows your Hydra block coming along? I am sure all the pelt users will be glad to see it.
02-19-2003, 05:18 PM
Craig

Pretty hot and high O/C Cathar.

Your should get it posted at VR-Zone it would be one of two in the first 3 pages done with water.

www.vr-zone.com/guides/AMD/TBred

edit: Should have said without TEC's. :D
02-19-2003, 05:31 PM
Craig

By the way how is the GPU block coming along?
02-20-2003, 07:53 AM
Sproket

HEY CAthER

I would like one of your block for my 2100+ throughbred

you can email me at sproket@prowestfilms.com or post reply here.

I can paypal you the $$.

or whatever.

Thanks
Sproket
02-20-2003, 08:46 AM
Sproket

Does anyone know how to get a hold of Cather? Email address?

Thanks
02-21-2003, 06:58 PM
SuperFreak

Cathars email to order his block direct from him - slf@connect.com.au

Or for of of the USA people you can save on shipping costs by ordering from http://www.jpiperformance.com he carries Cathars block also along with some nice radiators and shrouds.
02-21-2003, 10:55 PM
Hua Luo Han

Just arrived. :slobber:

http://hlh1.netfirms.com/LRWB.jpg

:toast:
02-22-2003, 11:01 AM
Sproket

Hua Luo Han

What did you get a block w/ 3/8 and the other 1/2" Barbs?

Why may I ask.
02-22-2003, 01:33 PM
WS_JP

Those are just gorgeous!

Nice choice, too!
02-23-2003, 03:49 AM
Hua Luo Han

Quote:

Originally posted by Sproket
Hua Luo Han

What did you get a block w/ 3/8 and the other 1/2" Barbs?

Why may I ask.

:D to test out their performance diff, if any ...... :rolleyes:
02-23-2003, 05:38 AM
wymjym

and will you please let us know what you determine?
wj
02-23-2003, 12:12 PM
Sproket

I was getting ready to order the white water 1/2"

Hope thats my best bet.

Yes please let us know your findings.
Thanks
02-23-2003, 03:55 PM
Cathar

Due to the White Water's nozzle plate which adds in an artificial restriction, any performance difference will purely be a function of the final flow-rate, and not the barb configuration. The larger 1/2" barbs (and 1/2" tubing) offer less pressure-drop resistance against the pump, and so given the same pump, the 1/2" system will yield higher flow rates, and therefore better performance. The difference however may be so small that it will be hard to pickup using anything less than Bill Adams' testbed, and one must always be careful of mounting variations, which can always swings results by up to 2C (and sometimes worse for a really botched installation).
02-24-2003, 02:18 AM
Friar Tuck

Well....finished my initial testing of one Cathar White Water waterblock.

Results: Outstanding performance, the best I have ever seen.

Test results posted soon.

FT.
02-26-2003, 06:56 AM
tediber

i got a question ?? would it be easier to "cast" a block ..... i have this crazy idea to get a jeweller melt some silver and cast it in the shape of the microchannels ..... just the middle portion then fuse it to a hollow chamber or block ..... i mean bore a hole in a 1/8" or 3/16"copper block elongated hole where the silver would be placed. just an idea
02-27-2003, 02:56 AM
Cathar

I investigated casting quite extensively. While it is potentially possible to get the block cast in silver, due to silver having such nice properties for casting, for pure copper it is a total nightmare. Anything less than 3-4mm distance between major deflections (which in this case would be the channels themselves) will result in malformed casting results. It is possible, but not using any of the more common cheaper techniques. You'd need some form of vacuum based centrifugal casting to get copper to flow into the fine channels in any reliable fashion, or at least that was what was explained to me by a very large professional casting firm here in Australia. At that stage, I gave up and went off looking for conventional machining possibilities.
02-27-2003, 06:39 AM
tediber

oh thanks cathar. i was thinking of just the middle portion would be silver ..... just slightly bigger than the CPU die area ...... after which it could just be bonded to a conventional block with a hole in the middle for the silver block
03-01-2003, 01:59 AM
Obitus

I just ordered mine as part of one of JPs great kits. Can't wait to get it all hooked up!
04-19-2003, 07:45 AM
Rub87

Yu

Were can i buy sugh a perfect water block?
04-19-2003, 09:04 AM
antipop

Quote:

Originally posted by Rub87
Yu

Were can i buy sugh a perfect water block?

You can't for the moment, Cathar has stopped producing them but i've read in another thread that it'll soon be sold by Dtek, so you'll have to wait before getting one of them
04-19-2003, 09:05 AM
Rub87

Ok thx:D
04-21-2003, 07:07 AM
AMD Engineer

I just send him an email, so i guess I´ll know pretty soon if I am gonna have one of these in my rig!
04-21-2003, 08:00 AM
antipop

Tell me if he's still producing them, even if i doubt it
04-21-2003, 07:14 PM
LikwidKool

I sent an email around 2 weeks ago and still haven't gotten a reply. I guess he is busy.
04-21-2003, 09:14 PM
LiquidRulez

Yep hes busy.
That and the fact that he frequents every watercooling forum on the internet! I geuss it takes a while to make his rounds!

Your best bet in catching him is over at http://forums.overclockers.com.au/fo...?s=&forumid=24

Hes an Admin over there
04-22-2003, 12:08 AM
AMD Engineer

Thx Liquid, guess I´ll go there and tell him: You got mail ;)

Edit: I´ll post if I get a hold of him, or I can confirm that production is halted.
04-22-2003, 05:20 AM
SuperFreak

Yes, it is halted. Cathar is not making them anymore himself because they were to time consuming due to the amount of hand work he put into them. The good news is that Cathar worked out a deal with D-Tek and D-Tek will be mass producing the block soon.

This is not a rumor but fact. look here for some comments from Cathar on it
04-22-2003, 01:34 PM
AMD Engineer

Oh man, I really liked the design of the original one.

Anyone have one for sale? U can PM me :)
04-22-2003, 06:25 PM
Ragnarok

AMD Engineer - they are rare enough as it is in Aus! at least hte original hand lapped WW :(
04-27-2003, 12:12 AM
GeniusLoci

That's mine http://www.hardwarebg.com/reviews/wt01/wt11.html
04-27-2003, 02:14 AM
antipop

Quote:

Originally posted by GeniusLoci
That's mine http://www.hardwarebg.com/reviews/wt01/wt11.html

I can't read russian but to me it looks like the innovatek kit with a plexi mod
04-27-2003, 08:03 AM
AMD Engineer

It dosnt look like WW tho :)
04-27-2003, 11:51 PM
mattah

If you are interested in getting a LRWW I would suggest registering at the OCAU forums (www.overclockers.com.au). This is where Cathar hangs out alot of the time, and where alot of the early blocks went. (I've got #10 sitting at home in its box still .. *blush*)

Anyway, I've seen at least two LRWW on the for sale boards there in the past couple of months. The last one went for about 150-160, and the current one (#65) is sitting at 135 (these are Australian dollars). You have to wait a few months before you can visit the for sale forums, but if you register now there might be a few popping up sometime later in the year you can get in on.

Hope I've helped...
04-28-2003, 12:18 AM
Ragnarok

oi!, i am bidding for it right now

SSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH......
04-28-2003, 09:35 AM
AMD Engineer

Oh man, ive only been a member at ocau for a week or two :(

Mattah is it possible for you to buy one, witch I can buy from u?

/Steffan

Ill pm u as well
04-29-2003, 01:30 AM
Hua Luo Han

1 Attachment(s)

Dtek version of LRWW ? :slobber:
04-29-2003, 02:38 AM
SuperFreak

Quote:

I've just given the green light from my end, so it's basically now in the manufacturing stage.

The above quote is from Cathar

Here are some more pics :slobber:

http://www.employees.org/~slf/mprod/ww2.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~slf/mprod/ww3.jpg

http://www.employees.org/~slf/mprod/ww4.jpg
04-29-2003, 05:36 AM
Craig

Very nice so far.

Price?
04-30-2003, 03:18 AM
Ragnarok

well cathar said it will be up to D-Tek, but expects it to be very competitive compared to the current blocks on the market...

but then price i dont think is a factor ;) it is the BEST u can get..
04-30-2003, 04:17 AM
Cathar

I don't know the final price myself so I can't comment.
04-30-2003, 05:17 AM
TheReaper

Why does D-Tek insist on using aluminum for their top plate on waterblocks? Will their be a problem with using two different metals even if it's anodized? Still looks like it's top quality though! I'll be ordering one when they become available.
04-30-2003, 03:52 PM
AMD Engineer

It looks much better than i had expected!

Looking forward to order one, thats for sure
04-30-2003, 11:12 PM
antipop

Quote:

Originally posted by TheReaper
Why does D-Tek insist on using aluminum for their top plate on waterblocks? Will their be a problem with using two different metals even if it's anodized? Still looks like it's top quality though! I'll be ordering one when they become available.

If it's well anodized there should be no problem, i've heard the job of anodizing was very good
Cathar it's good to see you back :)
05-01-2003, 10:37 AM
SuperFreak

Here is a link with some good info on Cathar's Hydra Block :slobber:

I know I will be getting one for my video card.:slobber:

More info and some pics of a Hydra proto here