ATI On The Rebound: 6800nu and GT Dethroned !!

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11-23-2004, 05:45 AM
perkam

ATI Answers back: X800 Standard and X800XL on 110nm platform !!!

For all those ppl that switched over to Nvidia 'cause they didnt have a competitor to the 6800 GT, I hope you kept your receipts :p: :p: :p:

No joke though, X800 plain for $249 and 9000 '03 marks is nothing to scoff at.

Honestly though, I have always wanted an X800 but but settled for the X700XT because I dont want to pay $499 for one, so I'm quite excited about the X800XL for $349 with 12000 '03 score . :) :p: :D

http://www.theinquirer.net/images/articles/X800XL.jpg
ATI's 110nm Revolution has arrived !!

Perkam
11-23-2004, 05:56 AM
Gk22CoE

pcie only

leaves many of us in the dust
11-23-2004, 06:15 AM
perkam

For now, I agree, but I think a couple of months down the road we should stop whining about he PCIe/AGP thing considering no one says anything about SLI BEING PCIE ONLY !!!!!!!

Seriously, seems like that has become an excuse for putting down even the newer more powerful X850. Do you really believe you'll get a 6900 with AGP version, C'mon, the vga manufacturers want to move on to PCIe just as much as the chipset and mobo manufacturers want too - its merely the evolution of the technology, not an alternative to AGP.

Perkam
11-23-2004, 06:29 AM
zakelwe

If the X800XL is a lower clocked 16 pipe X800XT then that sounds a good card and should be available in good numbers, what memory does it have ?

I know you like ATi Perkham so I shall not mention the X850XT card which seems to use unsold FX 5800 dustbuster cooling and takes up two slots for a 20Mhz increase in speed over the XT PE. :p

It's certainly getting a crowded market now that both are chucking out 0.11micron Taiwan made chips.

Regards

Andy
11-23-2004, 08:58 AM
perkam

" I know you like ATi Perkham so I shall not mention the X850XT card which seems to use unsold FX 5800 dustbuster cooling and takes up two slots for a 20Mhz increase in speed over the XT PE. :p "

I cant even say myself that I'm not marginally inclined towards ATI, but I'm sure that the company with the largest market in the video card industry right now must have done SOME research in using the dustbuster technology in their high-end graphics products :p: :p: :p: .

Though, I doubt anyone's gonna buy an X850 But the numbers will the story, not the Mhz rating. Again, lets not forget the R350 and the R360 and the number of ppl that would trade the first for the latter in the blink of an eye - even today.

PhaseNos :D
11-23-2004, 09:03 AM
Geforce4ti4200

do you mean x800se? its 8 pipes and higher clocks than 9800xt but 128mb ram I think. Pci-e versons near $300 with the agp costing a bit more. I totally understand about people moving on to pci-e I will do the same in like a year or maybe two once I am done using agp. I have too many agp cards to abandon agp so fast
11-23-2004, 09:05 AM
perkam

If ATI releases an AGP version of the R520 somewhere in Septermber 2005, then you have reason to keep your AGP cards lying around. But if it doesnt, then it will be a sign of the obsoletion of AGP, for sure.

Perkam
11-23-2004, 12:04 PM
pik-ard v1.1

geforce, what do you mean x800se? we're talking about the x800, and x800xl.

jebus, someone needs to make a nice easy chart showing how many pipes, how much ram, if they are agp or pci-e, and at what clocks all of these x800's are running at...

x800, x800se, x800xl, x800pro, x800xt, x800xt pe.

and a few might come in 128mb and 256mb versions... jesus... and some come in both agp and pci-e... :eek:
11-23-2004, 12:09 PM
perkam

how do u post charts here anyway (other than image files i mean)

Perkam
11-23-2004, 12:33 PM
quicksilverXP

Honestly... performance is the same for everything.... I honestly don't care anymore since there are too many variants coming out... all I know is that the deciding factor is SLI... and Nvidia has that now.

However, for 249 dollars... why not just spend an extra 30 dollars more an find an EVGA 6800 Limited Edition?
11-23-2004, 02:11 PM
Geforce4ti4200

the 6800 limited edition is sold out. so what is the x800xl like for $250? is it just another name for x800se? as for agp, ati said they wont be making any agp cards higher than x800xt. no point since all the fast mobos and cpus will be pci-e making an agp r520 would mean people with bartons and old a64s/p4 might use it and itll be such a bad waste of a bottleneck.
11-23-2004, 03:05 PM
st0nedpenguin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven

Lol dethroning their own X800pro you mean...competition between their own cards ....Nice and very nice about the numbers and results...easy for competition to make a winner .
..

You mean like NVIDIA did with the 5800 > 5900, 5600 > 5700, etc, popping out a replacement for a current card during the lifetime of the original card?
11-23-2004, 03:55 PM
perkam

Quote:

Originally Posted by quicksilverXP

Honestly... performance is the same for everything.... I honestly don't care anymore since there are too many variants coming out... all I know is that the deciding factor is SLI... and Nvidia has that now.
However, for 249 dollars... why not just spend an extra 30 dollars more an find an EVGA 6800 Limited Edition?

WOW...For a name like quicksilver, u sure aint that quick in gettin this stuff. :p:

Firstly, the deciding factor is SLI which, BTW:

**********SLI REQUIRES PCIE VIDEO CARDS

AND !!!

**********SLI REQUIRES PCIE MOBO

There, now hopefully it'll get in ppl's heads, Sheesh. First off, anyone that believes that SLI has given Nvidia an edge but at the same time criticizes ATI's move to PCIe has one-tenth my IQ (and my IQ aint that high).

Secondly, the cards in discussion here are the X800 Standard with 12 pipes, 128MB ram but 256-bit memory for $249. The X800XL, for $349, has 16 pipes, 256MB Ram and 256-bit memory.

Lastly, lets not forget something that the R430 (X800Standard,X800XL) has that even the XT PE does not have: its based on the 110 nm architecture, so that means less power requirement and higher OCs (hopefully).

The X850 is merely a re-hashed version of the same 130nm XT in PRO and XT variations, but it could have potential.

Frankly, Nvidia had 6800 variants coming out of its #$@%& !!! and no-one seemed to notice. And now that ATI has more variants at different (lower) price points, everyone's all confused. To those ppl i say: Take a pill if you have a headache with all this, but ATI isnt relinquishing its authority over the graphics market for some time to come.

Perkam
11-23-2004, 04:05 PM
DrJay

Is there a point to this thread??
11-23-2004, 04:20 PM
perkam

Yes, to gather info on the launch of the 110nm X800s in December.

BTW, the actual launch is in Muenchen Germany (where Macci is right now) so I guess it must be important. :)

Perkam
11-23-2004, 05:42 PM
texuspete00

Dude, you sound seriously bias and this has very little to do with 3dmark. Intelligent people don't like all this OMG propaganda. Being an ass to everybody who opposes your view is not appreciated.
11-23-2004, 06:48 PM
pik-ard v1.1

http://members.lycos.co.uk/pikardv1/files/x800.htm

ok, i've consolidated all the information i could gather on the x800 and x850 series. couldnt find a MSRP price on the x800se though.

sorry bout the adds, but if you use firefox, you dont see them. :D
11-23-2004, 07:02 PM
perkam

Quote:

Originally Posted by texuspete2k2

Dude, you sound seriously bias and this has very little to do with 3dmark. Intelligent people don't like all this OMG propaganda. Being an ass to everybody who opposes your view is not appreciated.

Hmmm....Even if I was being an a$% to everybody, I took the time to write down how and why I was doing so. You couldnt even justify your accusations.

Pikard, thats a very good table on such short notice. Oh and the most recent msrp of X800se due to their rarity is $299 USD which sucks cause the X800 Standard is gonna kick its a$% at $249 but its still VERY hard to find.

Perkam
11-23-2004, 07:10 PM
pik-ard v1.1

thanks, got that added in now.

any other features i should add in that is different between the different cards?
11-23-2004, 08:04 PM
quicksilverXP

Based on the "Dethroned" aspect of this thread I came in here expecting a logical explanation for ATI dethroning Nvidia. However, it is exactly the opposite here. It is entirely speculation and worse, a display of typical idiotic fanboyism.

I'd be fine with simple information regarding existing or upcoming videocards... but look at the title of the thread.... give me a break.

P.S. I could care less about AGP or PCI-E... when the hardware is out and if the performance is there.... then I'll trade my stuff now and pay the margin and buy it. Right now there is no single card that ATI or Nvidia will release shortly that can warrant any kinda of dethroning to existing cards now (I can understand a 5950 to an X800... but certainly not a 6800GT to an X800XL)... SLI is the only thing that exists that has the right of dethronement to any card. I can tell you right now that 2 6600 GTs (little less than 380 if you look right) is sweeter than any 380 dollar card on the market right now.... but until it is released to other people... just go ahead and speculate.

And if you wanna keep discussing 3DMarks... go ahead and run a 9600 Pro against a 5950 Ultra in 3DMark 05... and we'll see exactly how much 3DMark means...then you can go ahead and start another thread that says "9600 Pro dethrones 5950 Ultra in 3dMarks"...please....

I'm glad ATI is releasing products that will cater to the mid range and also have somewhat close performance to the high end... but I see no dethroning there and no need for a misleading thread... I think you should just change the thread to "ATI releases a new product line" or something like that...
11-23-2004, 08:25 PM
pik-ard v1.1

i'd just like to see all variations of the x800 and x850 lines put through all the popular benchmarks...

there, now you dont have to keep editing, to keep from double posting. :D
11-23-2004, 08:28 PM
perkam

Quote:

I think you should just change the thread to "ATI releases a new product line" or something like that...

That I cant disgree with. I had no intention of comparing any cards here, rather, my purpose with the "Dethroned" aspect was that the 6800 GT now has some thing to compete with, and is NOT the King of Mid-High-End anymore. Before the X800XL, the X800 Pro was more expensive but a tad less powerful and the X800 XT was much more expensive but with the same 16 pipes.

So the 6800 GT was the only practical card out there until now - thats my point. Sure, if I had said "ATI releases a new product line" it would have been more to the point, but with Nvidia fanboys (not that I'm accusing you of being one) going around telling ppl that the 6800 GT has no competitor and that the X800 PRo sucks, I just thought it'd be appropriate to qwell their overly enthusiastic miconceptions..

In addition, ATI seems to coming out on top on MOST of the synthetic benchmarks out there and you CANT deny that advantage. Nvidia may be suitable NOW for games like Doom 3 and Far Cry, but Futuremark makes software which measures the card's potential to remain competitive in the face of more graphically intensive games using newer technologies for the future, instead of current ones.

Perkam
11-24-2004, 12:05 AM
Mini

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geforce4ti4200

the 6800 limited edition is sold out. so what is the x800xl like for $250? is it just another name for x800se? as for agp, ati said they wont be making any agp cards higher than x800xt. no point since all the fast mobos and cpus will be pci-e making an agp r520 would mean people with bartons and old a64s/p4 might use it and itll be such a bad waste of a bottleneck.

You think that a A64 is a bottleneck for R520??

I doubt it... FX-55 is still AGP ;)

So is A64 4000+...

So is the P4 3.4 and 3.4EE...

So i dont see why they will be bottlenecks ;)

For X800XT-PE firing squad said that you had a VERY small bottleneck with a 2500+...

So thats not so bad...

Bottlenecks in system are only in 3dmark01 ;)

Not in stuff that actually is up to date ;)
11-24-2004, 12:44 AM
STEvil

If that were true UT2K4 would run the same on an A64 as it does on a 2500+.

That is not the case, and neither is it the case for Doom 3, Half-Life 2 and quite a few others.

Ti4200 still isnt correct though, either. You're just both wrong is all ;)
11-24-2004, 01:28 AM
DudeMiester

So you're saying that the 6800GT now has a valid contender for the high-mid-high end coming from ATI's X800 xt or se or le or eb or xtpe or abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz?

Sometimes things get to the point where you just don't care anymore. This has reached that point. All I know is that a 6800GT is damn fast, and you won't be lost in a maze or marketing when you try to buy one.
11-24-2004, 02:52 AM
zakelwe

Quote:

Originally Posted by perkam

Lastly, lets not forget something that the R430 (X800Standard,X800XL) has that even the XT PE does not have: its based on the 110 nm architecture, so that means less power requirement and higher OCs (hopefully).

Perkam

It's not low K so will probably be as hot, just like the X700 is pretty hot and that does not overclock very well, 50Mhz being a standard while the 6600GT starts off at 500 and adds 75-100 to that.

Regards

Andy
11-24-2004, 07:29 AM
perkam

Quote:

So you're saying that the 6800GT now has a valid contender for the high-mid-high end coming from ATI's X800 xt or se or le or eb or xtpe or abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz?
Sometimes things get to the point where you just don't care anymore.

Seriously, its not up to use to decide when that point comes along because of the FX-5xxx fiasco with Nvidia's xt, se, le, ultra, etc, ATI would have to release an X900 se, xt, le, etc to match Nvidia's debocle.

AGAIN MY POINT, its getting so easy to spot Nv fanboyism when you see ppl getting annoyed by the fact that ATI has more competitors in the market now that Nvidia ---> WHICH WAS NVIDIA's POSITION A MONTH AGO, and no one complained then for some odd reason *rollz eyes*

Quote:

X700 is pretty hot and that does not overclock very well,

Low-K has always been an advance in technology, even at stock if you get the same perf as a 6600GT with 130-nm on an X700XT. In addition, you seem to be talking about the "X700" which , with the lack of a PRO or XT in front of it, only suggests you are talkinga bout he X700 Standard - the most overclockable low-mid-range card there is. It puts the 6600-non-GT to shame and can easily operate stable at XT speeds for a measly $149.

Perkam
11-24-2004, 07:37 AM
quicksilverXP

Quote:

Originally Posted by perkam

That I cant disgree with. I had no intention of comparing any cards here, rather, my purpose with the "Dethroned" aspect was that the 6800 GT now has some thing to compete with, and is NOT the King of Mid-High-End anymore. Before the X800XL, the X800 Pro was more expensive but a tad less powerful and the X800 XT was much more expensive but with the same 16 pipes.

So the 6800 GT was the only practical card out there until now - thats my point. Sure, if I had said "ATI releases a new product line" it would have been more to the point, but with Nvidia fanboys (not that I'm accusing you of being one) going around telling ppl that the 6800 GT has no competitor and that the X800 PRo sucks, I just thought it'd be appropriate to qwell their overly enthusiastic miconceptions..

In addition, ATI seems to coming out on top on MOST of the synthetic benchmarks out there and you CANT deny that advantage. Nvidia may be suitable NOW for games like Doom 3 and Far Cry, but Futuremark makes software which measures the card's potential to remain competitive in the face of more graphically intensive games using newer technologies for the future, instead of current ones.

Perkam

I somehow doubt that correlation at all. 3dMarks are synthetic.. plain and simple and will never be reflective of actual gaming. It's been this way ever since the videocard contraversy started. The ATI and Nvidia cards I have are to similar in gaming performance... and am I suppose to assume (something you love to do) that because the synthetic benchmarks of old performed better on ATI.. that now ATI should perform well on current videgames now? I don't see that at all.

I'm not a fanboy... I'm not defending Nvidia or ATI.. I have both cards and have owned both for a very long time. I do however defend the ill assumptions that fanboys make... and for you perkam it seems a trend in all the threads I have read. And I think most people can agree on this.... constructive criticism is best.... but not wishful thinking...
11-24-2004, 07:52 AM
perkam

Quote:

that now ATI should perform well on current videgames now? I don't see that at all.

I didnt say that at all, all i said was that there is no plausible explanation for why Nvidia's cards do so badly in synthetic benchmarks.

In addiion, "Wishful Thinking" is my word, so stop using it :p:

Perkam
11-24-2004, 11:32 AM
zakelwe

Quote:

Originally Posted by perkam

Low-K has always been an advance in technology, even at stock if you get the same perf as a 6600GT with 130-nm on an X700XT.
Perkam

Both X700 series and 6600 series are 110nm. Neither use low K.

The X700 series runs fairly hot and up to now has not overclocked well compared to 6600 series.Check out the 3dmark05 scores for X700 series and 6600GT and tell me who is overclocking better.

Regards

Andy
11-24-2004, 11:42 AM
perkam

I thought you meant the X700 Standard, which overclocks quite high. The X700XT may suck and I dont have a problem with that. Its the X700 Pro 128 MB that can operate at XT speeds and beyond but at $20 - $30 cheapter than the 600 GT. As a matter of fact, many that reviewed the X700 PRO 256 MB noted that it actually tries to compete with the 6600 GT, even though it is supposed to be slower.

Nvidia may have the 6600 GT, and with SLI support, it has more going for it than the X700 XT - Even I KNOW THAT. My comments were about low-mid-end graphics market with the X700 PRO 128mb and X700 Standard 128 MB, for $179 and $149 respectively.

Though for anyone not looking at SLI, not looking at OCing, and wanting something that goes head-to-head with the 6600 GT, the X700 XT is a good choice.

Perkam
11-24-2004, 12:44 PM
DudeMiester

Well Nvidia learned their lesson last time around, hopefully the same will happen to ATI. If they really must have so many products then why don't they just number them all from 1 to 25, where 25 is the most powerful, and 1 the least. I think just calling then X1, X2, X3, ... X25, would be much simpler.