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I'm getting a jump on that auto cascade contest ;) I did my discharge desuperheater real late at night and brazed in my filter/drier to start everything look Okay? Tommorrow I'm making my oil sep, interstage HX, and phase sep and gonna see if I can get at least the piping done by this weekend. I'll also add a steriotypical picture of all the current parts I have for the project.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19697&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19696&stc=1
Nice to see the madness is starting :D
I will startmaking mine as soon as i pass a exam over @ college.
cool cant wait to see it in the making.
word of though though ya should of brazed those driers in just before ya vacuum the system not to spoil it.
Could you please save the proces of making it for later use so no one will copy your ideas :>
Show us the ready finished project :D
Be creative guys :D
Well I want to show everyone just so
1. People who don't know how can learn and enter
2. So I can do mine right
3. So I can tweak it for the best temps possible
@kayl I know I'm suppose to put the filter drier in at the last moment, but I had to do some piping with it so it was necessary. Besides I'm going to quadruple evac the system once it's done. I made alot of progress today, upload pics in a min.
Please carry on explaining and posting bh2k,
We all want to learn, a competition shouldnt stop us sharing ideas, should it?
Regards
John.
The heatexchanger is pretty ghetto and messed up, but it should get me going got a start. I cut myself very badly putting the 1/4 inside the 1/2 so I didn't take time to bend it real well.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19736&stc=1
I did take the time to braze the edit real well so as to avoid any possible leaks.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19737&stc=1
The phase sep is a very simple design and I modeled it just like chilly1's drawing which is a pipe in side of a pipe the outer pipe will be for the 2nd stage gas and the 1st stage gas will probably flow in the middle.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19738&stc=1
The Oil sep is done as well, but I'm letting it cool for now since I just brazed it. I'm also letting my batteries charge so I'll be posting my Oil sep info later. The compressor is mounted on the wood and I'm going to try and get as much piping and such done as I can tommorrow with the little oxy I have left. More updates tonight and later tommorrow ;)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19746&stc=1
Oil sep is packed with steel wool to catch the oil. Entrace is at the top refridgerent exits at the first pipe and oil returns to the compressor via second one.
How do you control the flow of the oil back to the compressor? If the oil separator returns oil through the service port (secondary suction on compressor) how will you prevent it from acting to bypass the low and high sides?Quote:
Originally Posted by bh2k
By the way you can turn your condenser into a phase-separator by having the entrance half way down, that way the stage 1 gas condenses and goes out the bottom and the stage 2 gas exits the top still as gas.
hey man... the steel wool idea is really cool....
why don't you just have the oil catch on the wool and go through the 1st stage lines? Seems like less work eh?
I've been told that some oil could potentially end up in the 2nd stage lines and "log" in the evap... Any ideas? or do you think that the phase seperator will do the job?
@ Gkiing I'm splitting the condenser, but the one up top is used to kind of subcool the 2nd stage gas before it gets to the interstage HX The vapor that doesn't condense in the condenser rises to the top and goes to this through the ones in the side and out the bottom so it's cooled by the suction line going back to the compressor through the middle of it. Also could you explain what you mean by how I could control it's flow back in to the compressor? The drawing I have has nothing on it, but a strait line back to the compressor. Is there something i'm missing in my creation?
Dunno why but i like the classic idea with the separator after the condenser more...
In chilly1's drawing it just shows the oil that has accumulated in the oil separator going straight back to the service port on the compressor, but doing this would mean that you are in fact making a connection between the low and high sides, which means that the compressor would have a hard time maintaining the pressure difference on the two. Maybe you need to use a small 3/16 line or some captube for oil return but im not sure.
ohhhh, I know what you mean, yea, I'm using a small open shut valve to let the oil back in whenever I want, but keep it closed to maintain pressures.
This is my autocascade drawing that I'm using for the piping
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19764&stc=1
The thing between the compressor service valve and the oil sep is the cutoff switch I'm using so I can open it at well to let the oil back in to the system.
Could you label those parts for me, if you have time? Some of that is confusing me.
Regards
John.
What you have labeled as a phase-separator/subcooling is actually a suction line heat exchanger, it does not separate the two gases. It just subcools the second stage gas which has already been separated by the condenser. Also I think that the coil before the oil separator is the desuperheater.
indeed you hooked up your phase sep to your suction line. That's a bit weird.
ohh okay, lol I'm sorry I mixed my terminology up. Yea that is the phase subcooler. I'm using a split condenser as my phase sep then.
Sorry about the word mixup.
can't wait to see it in action! Where are you getting your CO2 from? I'm still trying to locate a source around here so I can start my cascade. AirLiquide will only sell me a 13kg cylinder which is way more than eneough.
a welding related shop will be your best bet
Yes that's exactly what AirLiquide does they supply industrial and welding gases but they will only sell it in very large quantities, do you know of any way to obtain a small quantity of CO2? I was thinking of making some kind of container to hold dry ice and then vacuum it and pump the CO2 vapour into a tank with a compressor. Would that be a feasable idea?
The only other source I found was a paintball tank of compressed Co2 but I'm not sure of the purity and it may be difficult to fashion a proper adapter and valve for it.
I'm pretty sure the 5kg and 13kg af CO2 cost pretty much the same. At least last week when I called around for N2 theys aid it was the same price for 5l and 10l containers since the cost was comming mainly from shipping:)
[QUOTE=bh2k]The heatexchanger is pretty ghetto and messed up, but it should get me going got a start. I cut myself very badly putting the 1/4 inside the 1/2 so I didn't take time to bend it real well.
ouch i did the exact same thing piped me thumb and got a big flap of skin, it throbs for days and bleeds heaps.
also i love ya avatar.
keep it up, i am having the same problem.
co2 fire extinguisher a though, make a valve and put some into a 9kg gas bottle and keep filling that, or get a regulator.
Dude, according to that drawing there is no way you know how a auto-cascade works..... Sorry if I sound harsh but you should not play around if you dont know how the thing works. Autocascades can be more dangerous than cascades due to all the refrigerant being in one system so be safe and figure out how it works.
a diy shop or motorfactors mabey? they usually sell small disposable CO2 tanks for welding. i get large tanks of CO2 for my welder, i think they are 9Kg? not really sure, will check sometime, costs me £10 a time for a refil, just take it ot the shop and hand over the tank and a £10 note and get a nice new tank full of CO2 in return. the little disposeable tanks cost about £12 here and only have less than 1Kg in if i remember correctly. shop arroudn and im sure you will find somewhere. :) or ask around your friends, im sure someone will have or know someone who has a mig welder, ask them where they get their gas or if you can pinch a bit ;-)
owen
I'll start with the filter dryer. Thats in the wrong place. You need one in each liquid line. Phase separator shouldn't be a tube in tube. It needs one inlet and two out lets. Oil separator---refrigerant needs to enter at the pipe second from bottom and exit at top, bottom pipe is oil return to compressor, needs a valve to open to allow oil to return to compressor.
Major rethink on your plumbing required here mate. Do you understand how an autocascade works? Thats not a put down, by the way, just a genuine inquiry.
Regards
John.
What safety precautions are necessary on an autocascade? Ive been asking and asking but nobody will point them out to me. I for one dont want to start before I know I can build one that will be safe. Is it a good idea to use an expansion tank like on the low stage of a regular cascade? What about a high pressure cutoff to bridge the low and high side when the high side pressure is > 400psi. Do these sound like good ideas?
PcIce?
Chilly1?
i was going to make a flex hose like i use for suction line attach that to 9kg gas bottle and fill that. disconnect fire extinguisher and connect gauges to 9kg bottle and then fill.
then repeat untill i get enough co2 into system.
i remember ppl doing it with ethylene or something, as they didnt have a regulator.
have to be very careful, high pressure gass is cold and can rip flesh off bones .
ouch.
www.sodaclub.com they rent bottles for their small soda makers 33 0z. in a bottle or 930 or so grams and they are apparently worldwide...Quote:
Originally Posted by gkiing
Sorry I edited my last post but I know what you mean, use a buffer tank to regulate the pressure contained in the extinguisher.
uhh...if my drawing threw you off I'm using this one.
http://www.blairwing.com/images/autocascade/4.jpg
Oh and I think pythag if right, I don't know where I remembered reading about it coming in the top and exiting there..oh well guess i got it backwords. Thanks, I'll change it. I also mentioned my terminology was messed up my phase sep is actually a condenser where the refridgerent enters in the middle vapor goes to the top and condensesables go to the bottom where the cap tube meters it to the HX where it comes back out through the suction line. The top vapor goes through the phase sub cooler and then in to the interstage where it's condensed by the first stage gas and metered in to the evap by cap tub. The suction from there connects with the one from the first stage and goes back to the compressor. I honestly think I am capable of doing this, I just messed a few terms up on what they are called and maybe some of my piping is a bit off.
thats cool, i plan to use HPCO to 450PSI on the dischargeQuote:
Originally Posted by gkiing
can order them of chilly1, thats what im doing
also NitroRat thats a cool link and there are shops near me :toast:
http://www.sodastream.com.au/retail/...name=Cylinders
its ALco2 though is that co2?
[QUOTE=kayl]thats cool, i plan to use HPCO to 450PSI on the discharge
can order them of chilly1, thats what im doingQUOTE]
Just after the discharge on the high and just before the suction on the low? Is it a digital one or a non-settable copper one?
non settleable one thts about all i know about it
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
Yeah, their cheaper and easier to use for our purposes i guess. I think that they open at 450psig and close at 350psig.
Where's it going to go?
If you looking for a supplier for CO2, just look for "Paintball" under the yellow pages and look for a supplier that will sell & fill a paintball canister. Get a few of the paintball connector valves to mount to the tank and you should get good to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gkiing
not exactly sure on that.
i have never seen one and never used one, i just cant wait to get me stuff
i think they are perfect for nebies to autocascades though
For mine i was thiinking of making a box and hot glueing it air tight and puting dry ice in it with a shrader, don't know if it will work though.
if the shrader stayed closed for a minute or two, the box would explode, or spring a leakQuote:
Originally Posted by bh2k
http://www.growhere.com/atmospheric/grnairco2bottle.htm
not really sure if that is any good, it is near imposible to find online suppliers for CO2 over there..lol.. must have found a few hunred supliers over here in the uk when i was searching but thats the only one i came up with over there, their cylinder deposit seems a little on the high side though (im just comparing to prices over here though)
owen
www.airliquide.com
they supply industrial and welding gases all over the world. You can get an online quote from them go to their e-shop page and choose gases --> co2 --> research gas and you can get a 5lb tank of CO2 which is about the smallest they carry, although it is a bit expensive.
Yes, and you run a risk trying to compress it back into a cylinder at room temperature.. you need about 850PSI to do that if I remember correctly (@30C).Quote:
Originally Posted by blinky
Just find a paintball store and buy a 12oz tank of co2, thats what I'm planning to do.
yea, like I said it sounded okay in theory, but I pretty much figured the pressure wouldn't make it work. Anyways, I have a quick question. Does my oil sep have to be upwards or can I have it in any position?
Yeah it does. The refrigerant/oil mix travels up through the oil separator and the oil droplets are caught by the steel wool and are fed back to the compressor, gravity helps out here.Quote:
Originally Posted by bh2k
For the Filter if you have a few passes of hte discharge go through the condenser then through the filter drier you can put it there so all the refrigerant gets filtered.Quote:
Originally Posted by pythagoras
I'll probably put one on the top coming out of condenser just for access and probably one on the bottom for access as well. It kinda helps too I guess just to make sure the condenser doesn't have anything in it and saves me the time of figuring out access. Speaking of the HX I'm going to start off using R290 for the 1stage and I wanted to ask about sizing my captube. Im going to start with C02 and later switch to R22/R23 since it's colder, but about how much should I start with for captube to the HX? I was gonna use about 9 1/2 feet just to start and monitor and test from there.
How long is your tube in tube hx bh2k?
Well it was a 10feet coil of 1/2 and 1/4 inside of it. I cut about a foot off so it's about 9ft of 1/4 inside of 1/2. I planned 1/2 to be evaping and 1/4 to be condensing.
Any ideas?
9 1/2 captube is about right if your planning to use .028"
Only stuff I have is .052 ID Captube. Can you convert it?
that is too large to be used on this type of system.. even if you converted it and used a very long lenth.Quote:
Originally Posted by bh2k
You need some .026", .028", .031", .036", or .039" at the very largest.
hmmm I see. Well I can it at the very earliest probably monday guess I'll have to work up to until I need cap tube.
Made progress and basically worked up until I needed to do the evap and suction line.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19928&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=19929&stc=1
Captube is 9 1/2 feet of .028 captube just to test for a start.
sorry dude, its as i thought. you built it wrong. the condensor comes before the phase sep so the hight stage refrigerant can condense. I would suggest not building a autocascade so early.
uhhh...that pipe is the oil sep. The condenser is the phase sep dude. The high stage gas condenses and goes to the bottom where the low stage vapor goes to the top and comes out the top to the phase subcooler.
Hi,
Could you get closer shots of everything, i.e. oil seperator and all the connections to pipes and components. And whats that tube thats lieing horizontal? (not the HX)
Thanks
John.
Lying horizontal is the phase sub cooler. I don't think it has to be verticle does it? I'll take some more now. Im open to any suggestions to make it work better, but this was my first Ideas I had to solve problems. Actually nm I have to step out for a movie, I'll take some when I get back.
yah im pretty sure u have it right.
u forgot to connect up the output of the low stage subcooler, to the condensing inlet of the main HX. that u can do without suction line, cap tube, evap etc. just some quick tubing.
one question, what gas goes through the other part of the low stage subcooler? is it the suction line of the low "stage"?
ok so you are not going to blow yourself up :) . YOu should have a filter dryer at each liquid line not at the outlet of the compressor. Could you post some details ln that condensor it looks like a dual outlet. The phaseseo should be verticle b/c there is probobly not enough space for the liquid to completely fall to the bottom so it wont seperate that well. Also why do you have the cap tube comming out of the condensor? It should come out of the phase sep. Sorry for screaming at u, jsut dont want anyone getting hurt or ruining their equip.
As chilly1 mentioned before, it is OK to put a filter drier at the compressor discharge so that you can filter all the refrigerant with only one drier. The captube coming out of the condenser is likely for the high (first) stage refrigerant which is travelling to the heat exchanger to evaporate. Once again THE CONDENSER IS THE PHASE SEPARATOR! I think bh2k will appreciate my emphasizing this, other people don't seem to get it.
BH2k is the inlet to your condenser at teh bottom? It should be halfway up.
I get all of it ;) Just would like a closer look at the plumbing.
But on the filter dryer, if its important to have it pointing down to get a liquid seal, how does it work in the position its in??
Regards
John.
Thanks guys, I know sometimes I seem like I have no idea what I'm doing, but I have all you here to help so I'm confident in my ability. JSU is correct the inlet to the condenser is a dual and is 2 1/4 pipes inside a 1/2 pipe. I have filters on the discharge before the oil sep. Out of the bottom of the condenser. Finally one will be put after the phase sub cooler to filter out anything in the phase subcooler. I still have to do the oil intake back to the compressor and the overall suction to the compressor. If you've noticed in the pics I did braze access right before the compressor to make up for my service port being used for oil return.
http://www.brainwashstudios.com/stev...edoverview.jpg
http://www.brainwashstudios.com/stev...scade/side.jpg
Finished all the piping and basic assembly today for this thing. Im sure there are leaks everywhere, but I haven't even tryed to charge it as i want to make sure it's all looking good first. Give me some feedback. Coil with captube around it is the temporary evap until I finish mine.
lookin good, cant wait till you get it finish, really, i love your work, you are a real inspiration to me, and probaply many others.
My biggest concern is the ghetto phase-sep/condensor and the homemade oil-sep, but it seems like you know what youre doing.
Im thinking of building something similar to your system, so i am following your work closely ;)
btw, why is it necessary with a device that can control the amount of oil returning to the compressor, shouldnt that happen automatically, so no user input is needed?
good going. i hope ya get an evap soon.
one thing i think you have the HX up side down.
need to evaporate at the bottom of the hx up.
i think thats what i see (last photo)
have you sourced co2 yet.
your making me want to start brazing autocascade.
in the last photo that little red tape is oil return. turn it on few hours to suck oil out back to compresser.Quote:
Originally Posted by floshey
awwww, look at all the little lovehearts on the bench
Why use an oil seperator? The phase seperator would return the oil with the first stage refrigerant anyways.
Your drawing I used had one in it so I made one before anyone said it wasn't necessary ;) Oh well, can't hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by chilly1
Just a little extra bit of assurance. If anything it will lengthen the life of the cascade, or at least make it 99.999% sure that you wont get oil lodged in the evap.Quote:
Originally Posted by bh2k
yea, and I just realized I didn't hook up the phase sub cooler from the 1st stage suction :doh: oh well one more thing to do. I did a little leak testing anyways just to make everything all good. Can never hurt. Anyone got an idea how much dry nitrogen would cost me to use to pressurize?
Yeah i know that, but it is necessary, shouldnt the oil return by itself? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
oil will return but i guess ppl unsure weather co2 carriers oil or not, ie clogging captube/evap
will but normally a oil seperator has a float that returns oil automactically.
we do it manually, basically ya putting a path disharge oil sep to suction so only want it open for a short peirod of time untill needed again.
ah, so the valve won't be needed with a commercial oil-sep?Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
I will let you get back to your work now, hope you can find some nitrogen for pressure test.
hihihih, this is one beautiful phase! Do you want to test your performace?
Tnks
so, does it work ? :)
I haven't tested it been hella busy. I also need more oxy. Damn oxy tourch is so expensive to use at 8 bucks for a bottle that lasts for 20 mins. so frustrating sometimes. I did get a c02 source though. Apparently my boss uses it for the beer freezer in the resturant I work in so I'm gonna get a little from there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by berkut
I want to view this phase working eheheh.. so, i'm brazilian man, my english is very poorly :cry: :(
tnks
It's okay mod_evil welcome to XS bud.
what load temps are you aiming for? i think your 3.0c will like it if 4.1ghz was on water, im seeing maybe 4.6ghz if cold enough
Yuppo, 4.1 was on water. I can perdict 4.6 maybe, I don't know depends if I can get the time to get this thing up and running. That would technically make my cpu @ 300fsb which would be a nice thing. Currently does 271 unmodded ;)
buy a big oxy bottle 10Liter for example. It will pay off eventually :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by bh2k
For a cheap source of C02 you can buy a 20g bottle (for paintball, $30) and get it filled for around $4.
that is cheap, i wish it was that much for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by wr0x2
ya just need a fitting and then you can attach you regulator to the bottle and charge
Exactly, but I dont think such a fitting exists :(Quote:
Originally Posted by kayl
i think you have to get it make up (adaptor fitting, it also needs a needle in it to depress the valve in the paintball cylinder), thats why im gonna use beer gas.
jsu got one made, i know that bowman also uses pinball co2 as well.
nothing is easy hehe
i think the same is with the c02 regulators and using a refrigerant gauges ya need a fitting as well to screw yellow hose on to regulator, haven’t got that far yet.
January though i will find out exactly what i need.