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Now that I have almost all parts for my first direct die, it's time to start realy thinking about the rigth length for cap tube.
I'm gona use R290 and 1/5 HP compressor(If I cant find anything better). Cap tube that I have is 0.031 inch and I calculated that I would need 3.8m of it for roughly 165w of heat. Does this seem correct? I'm pretty sure that my CPU won't produce that much heat but I used that wattage just as a some starting point for my calculations.
I calculate 153.6" for 165w with 0.031 cap. That is 3.9m. Using Gary's instructions here So sounds like you got it down.
you using BBQ R290
Well either BBQ grade or the one used in fork lifts as fuel...Not sure yet wich one. What kind of connector does a r134a botles have? Is it like a shraeder valve or is it like in normal gas botles? Im pretty sure I can braze an adapter if I need to tough...
Quote:
Originally posted by hatemi
Well either BBQ grade or the one used in fork lifts as fuel...Not sure yet wich one. What kind of connector does a r134a botles have? Is it like a shraeder valve or is it like in normal gas botles? Im pretty sure I can braze an adapter if I need to tough...
I think you have the same bottles in Finland as we have here? Do you BBQ grade Propane have the name Gasol there? I took a brass connection and brazed a schrader into it, works really great :). I have pic if you want. Btw, the BBQ and the ones used in fork lifts, i think they are the same.
The BBQ gases has inpurities in them. The odor, some butane( les than 2% acording to AGA) and there might be some other inpurities aswell. The fuel propane does not have the odor in them but the botles also have slightly different connectors:( I was also planing on brazing a shraeder valve on a gas botle valve to connect it to the gauges.
Here is a picture of the differnt connectors in torch botles that I can get ahold of and in BBQ botles:
The Pic of the valve you used would be nice to see tough:)
Both will have a certain amount of impurities. I don't know how much, it would depend on how well they refine it in your area. I know in Canada where I am BBQ propane has methane, butane, isobutane, propene and all kinds of other crap in it. Other than the methane, I wouldn't be worried too much about the other impurities, although they do add to the overall flamability of the gas. I'm sure they are trace amounts anyhow. You should check into getting some refrigerant grade propane, it may be possible without a licsence. I don't know for sure, I've never come across R290 down here. I know that in the northern part of my province they use propane almost exclusively for a refrigerant. In the cottages and stuff.
Looking at the pictures you showed, it looks like the torch valve would be easier to modify anyway.
I think the torch botles are the ones that I'm going to use as I can get ahold of it easily (Im pretty sure I can borrow some at my dads firm) and I can get the valves there too... butane(R600) doesn't consern me in the system even tough it might slightly affect the overall preformace of the system. Now I need to go to the AC guy and ask him if I could borrow his servicing station( not sure if it's the correct term) for maybe next weekend and try to get the system filled:) I still need another 2m of cap tube, litle oil and a shreder valve but other than that my system seems to be rady for assemby... And I need to borrow a propper A/O torch too. I actually found one shop that sells very small A/O torc and botles kits for 200€ but with 20€ that I have for the end of this month I just can't afford one:(
Here's a list of the impurities in Gasol (bbq grade propane in sweden) : http://www.airliquide.se/en/business...blad/gasol.pdf
(Hope you know some swedish, if not just look at "2", there it says :))
hatemi: im going to take som pics of my connection in a few mins (when it stops raining).
im using bbq grade R290 and i god to -43 C using it at just under 0PSI LOW for a chillier
i think that i can get good temps better that r134a by far maybe equal to r22 which i think is ok for a refrigerant that doenst require a license and is cheap as chips.
in about a month i will have completed my first direct die phase system
Thanks Pandrone.Im going to look for the same table from AGA site but if memory serves it said it was 98% pure propane. My swedish is not that good( barely passing the courses has been good enough for me;) ) even tough it is demanditory subject in finnish schools from seventh grade, but I got the main points from the PDF nonetheless:)
Just to let you know:165 watts is alot less than a high clocked A64 or preshott puts out...
Yup. But it will be enough for my northwood tough:) And I'm still planing my system so I can still easily change the captube length.
I found out that the AGA liquidgas ie. propane contains aprox 98% of pure propane and 2% of butane so it is pure enough for me:)
PS. Pandrone, it rains (more like poors)here too. Few hours ago the thunder was right above me but I cant her the banging anymore tough.maybe if I turned the volume down;)...
Northwood puts out a lot more then any of the A64/FX chips though. How do people come up with these heat estimates anyway? Take the manufactor's numbers and double them ? :)
Damn, this took a long time (didn't find any upload service). Anyway, here's the pics :
The schradervalve is brazed onto a gas-connection that you can buy at your local a/c shop:
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfold...n_schrader.JPG
This is the propanebottle i use with it's regulator (that gives out 30mbar) :
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfold...opane_tank.JPG
Just a pic to show where i connect those two (i'm lazy so you get a pic showing the bbq grill too :D):
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfold...ll_fitting.JPG
And the last pic is showing the thingy in use (poor quality pic) :
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfold...oad6/ready.JPG
Thanks Pandrone:) Now I get the idea on how to connect the botle to the gauges.
BTW i noticed your grill has warnings in finnish too;)
Pandrone what percent solder did you use to braze copper to brass
I think it was 40% silver the one used there. (the rods wasnt labeled in the store, more than the name silversolder).Quote:
Originally posted by kayl
Pandrone what percent solder did you use to braze copper to brass
Did you have to remove the regulator on the propane, or can you just feed into the low side and have the compressor pressurize it?
Vacuum the system that's getting filled, let the system fill itself to 1bar. And then start the compressor and let it suck the gas from the lowside acess port. So the answer is yes, i have the regulator left when filling :).Quote:
Originally posted by saratoga
Did you have to remove the regulator on the propane, or can you just feed into the low side and have the compressor pressurize it?
Thats what i assumed, just don't want to make mistakes with propane :)
Plans tend to change and this is my curent :
Got Danfoss sc10d compressor(R22 HBP) so the 1/5hp Aspera got ditched:) 1/2 vs 1/5hp so easy desicion. I needed a flashlight and some serious stealth skills to get this compressor;)
The whole system is mounted on a fiberboard and brazed together. All I need to braze now is drier and evap/hose and it's ready for some R290. Im not pleased on my evap tough...Melted the cap when brazing so I made hole on the top of my evap and brazed the cap there, but now I can't run it inside the suctionhose (automotive hose made from rubber so wrapping it around it won't help that much). I might still change the evap so I can run it inside the suctionhose for better effiency, but for now I cant do so because My neighbours O/A torch run out of oxygen:( The service tech that is going to help me fill the system has small A/O setup so I can change the captube before putting all together.
I decided to go for 2.4m of 0.031 for 210w load. I will post pics as soon I get everything ready:)
You do that mate, really looking forward to seeing this (making a propane system myself) :)Quote:
Originally posted by hatemi
I decided to go for 2.4m of 0.031 for 210w load. I will post pics as soon I get everything ready:)
I can post some pics of the system on the back of my ex(yes she is so grate!) GF's car, but they aren't so grate... I take care of her dog and I can drive her car for 5 days! Tomorrow I will discuss the proper way of filling the comp with my AC tech...I sure hope he borrows me the gauges and vacume pump for a couple of days since I know he can't get the charge right...CPU does have a different load as a refridgerator! and you can't charge one from a PDF from Danfoss or Electrolux! trial and error...All It really takes...and more trial
I cant make my mind on wether I should use this evap made from SK6 and 50mm copper tube that has plenty of surface area inside or mod my first maze waterblock to be used as an evap. The WB has roughly 12mm x 10mm chanels and 7mm bottom plate. If I use the WB I will drill some holes in the bottom of the chanels roughly 4mm deep to ad turbulance and surfaew area. Wich one would be better way to proceed?
I will post a pic of the evap in a minute if I can find it:)
The WB in process:
WB after soldered:
The new evap:
And from a different angle:
I will post some pictures of the insides of the evap maeby this evening after I get them from my parents computer.
This is the evap before brazing. You can see the insides very well:
Wich one would work better?The maze or the heat sink one? Comments and improvements are welcome
And this is what the whole system looks like::D
Any comments anyone? Wich would work better?
The sk6 for sure, the fins and the base are one piece, heat transfer will be better than a maze made it by two diferent pieces of copper and soldered together, solder is bad for heat transfer beetwin, if you at least make some kind of you holes "a la #rotor" it would be better transfer. You only make the gas to run slowly with the maze but not improving your disipating power if you dont have any turbulences in the evap base.
(I know, my english sucks, but you can understand my point isn't it? :( )
Well actually I found out that the SK6 finns are soldered to the base:( If I had known it before I ordered it I would have gotten some other heatsink...I drilled some holes for more turbulence on the bottom of the SK6 evap also... now I'm leaning towards the SK6 evap but not sure wich would actually preform better...
Monday is the day I'm going to get my system filled:) yesterday I tried to work on some insulation stuff but I lost my nerves and put everything together with aircooling and some vaseline in the socet and now my CPU temp reads 16c with stock cooler! Weird stuff but other than that everything seems to work fine...
Now, if I got the filling proces correct it goes like this(correct me if I'm wrong):
1: Evacuate from highside. The service tech said all he uesually does is evac for 15 minutes and fill the sytem after that...not good enough for us;)
2:brake the vacume from low side with R290.
3:evac from low side and brake the vacume from high side.
4:evac from highside and fill the system to 100PSI(~7bar)
5:get the comp running and see what happens:)
6:fill the system with more refridgerant in small increasements and see when the most lowest temp is reached.
7:get the evap under load and star filling with small adjustments till the temps wont get any better...
What I'm not sure are how the temps ant evap and 3 inches from comp should be...
Any comments? Did I forget anything? The service tech has got no clue on how to tune all for maximum preformance so I'm on my own on this. He has filling stations for R134a and R600. The R134 thingy had 3 gauges on it ,a vacumepump some cylinder for refridgerant and just one hose comming out...I didn't see the R600 station but he said it had only the gauges and hoses and a seperate vacumepump. Not sure wich is the one we are going to use but nonetheless we are going to need make an converter for propaine botle to shraedervalve.
The vaseline insulates your temp sensor. You might have even pushed it down a bit putting the vaseline in the socket (I don't know what kind of sensor is on a IC7), so it does not has good contact with your processor anymore. That would explain the high processor temps you've measured before too.Quote:
Originally posted by hatemi
Monday is the day I'm going to get my system filled:) yesterday I tried to work on some insulation stuff but I lost my nerves and put everything together with aircooling and some vaseline in the socet and now my CPU temp reads 16c with stock cooler! Weird stuff but other than that everything seems to work fine...
Solder's not going to make a difference. Conductivity should be somewhere between 20 and 100 w/mk. Copper is just 400 w/mk.
Since the thickness of the solder is < 1/1000 of a meter, even at the worst case the difference is extremely small (<< then one degree).
I thought Intel chips had an on die sensor and not one of those in socket sensors that Athlon boards have...MBM reads case 28c,cpu23c, and pwm34c. I'm not used to such a low PWM temp because I have never ever run this board at deffault voltages and speeds;)
Can't wait for tomorrow... Getting so exited:)
I got an idea that maybe We should overcharge it and then wehen I get it home I could let some gas go and finetune it here under load. We dont have anything to load it there and I dont want to mount it on my CPU without proper insulation. Any tips? How should we do it?
Look what I got today:)
Quote:
Originally posted by hatemi
Look what I got today:)
Ahh, nice bottle you have there :). A bottle of "Nestekaasu" or?
some people use tec, but i guess thats useless if u need it rite away, lol, good luck!
This is what it says on the botle:
Probably the same as in sweden (Gasol) a blend that consists of atleast 95% propane :). Wonder why it's name is "Nestekaasu", that could be just about any gas ::cool:Quote:
Originally posted by hatemi
This is what it says on the botle:
This is what the base looks after some lapping...It stillis dity and needs to be polished with cloth, but it is good enough I gues:
i like
how did you go about getting it that smooth
what sand paper did you start and finish with?
someone told me once you get it to this stage use some brasso
to polish it up
I used Wet and dry sand paper starting with 240 grit, then 400,800 and 1200. The trick to get it smooth is to sand the final paper long enough so it is full of copper dust and is actually more like 2000grit:) And do all the strokes in the same direction up/down and not in circular moves. Then when you change the paper you change the direction(twist the block 90 degrees). The base looked actually better once in the process but I got Exited and used circular moves and it got it to matte finish and had to start the polishing all again.
sounds like a planQuote:
Originally posted by hatemi
Can't wait for tomorrow... Getting so exited:)
I got an idea that maybe We should overcharge it and then wehen I get it home I could let some gas go and finetune it here under load. We dont have anything to load it there and I dont want to mount it on my CPU without proper insulation. Any tips? How should we do it?
just remember that its very easy to let too much out.
have a pressure chart handy when charging, pressure on gauges should be similar to evap temps, its fascinating i think
it gives you an idea on whats going on.
low side pressure is roughly what the temp of the evap will be.
if you charge it so ya get a tad of frost forming on the suction line as it goes into the compressor.
then when you get home use a pen or something to slowly let the gas out high side under load. but dont let too much gas out as loose temps quick
running about 5 to 0psig is good if you let too much out past here the compressor quickly looses capacity, when normally you would just add a little more and keep tweaking, in you case you cant, so better off not going fo max cooling yet.
Ps thanxs for that info on sanding.
some pics from the process...It wasnt leakproof at first try...and not at the second time but after testing for leaks with R134a wi got it to hold preasure.
:)
The frost was all the way to the compressor on the suctionline:) This is what the fluke said:
I had some troubles mounting the evap on my board so no loaded temps yet, but insulated evaporator went down to -37c acording to my cheap as hell thermometer:) Then ice started building up on the suctionside of the compressor and the temps didn't get any lower.
Tomorrow I will get some bolts that are long enough to get this mounted to my mobo. It ain't gonna be my 24/7 cooling as it is louder than my threshold of noise, but it will get me some nice benches as soon I get it mounted properly. I hate insulating and condensation profing my mobo. Lots of vaseline and armaflex and duct tape will have to do it for now:)
-42c broken without load:D Seems that my temp probe reports lower temps when the block is on its side rather than mounted on a mobo...might be beacause now it's on the lowest side->wet surface. But now I have to go to work. WIll update when I get back home.
nice work
so did ya charge with r290 in the end, or r134a
It is filled with propaine:) Too much actually, but now I got bolts that are long enough and a huge tube of vaseline so I'll be back in busines just after I take a long shower and have something to eat...
-32 on the evap with 2.4 northwood@1.825(1.75 real) under full load(prome small ftts and superpi 32M)
For some reason my AI7 can't read my cpu temps properly when socet is full of vaseline even tough it should read from the internal sensor and not from the socket...
The compressor is running wery hot and making a weird noise(hig frequency noise) so maeby I will need to let some more gas out... I just hope I dont need to ad some oil to it because I don't have any compressor oils.
the compressor is ment to run hot
can you hold you hand on it for a few seconds, i think they are ment to run 60c plus (not sure exact temp which is ok, maybe someone else could post operating temp of compressors?)
before you said that the system was making too much noise for your liking ie running 24/7, you said that its a 1/5 HR compressor whats it out of.
is it the fans that are making too much noise?
well done anyways. that direct dire block seems to be doing the job
The compressor is 1/2hp Danfoss SC10D..Ment to be oil cooled but it never has been cooled that way. It is definantely running hotter than 60c. but I will have to stop for now. I will continnue when I get back.
i have a air cooled compressor i think that is only used when they run static condensors to help keep the oil from burning
did you buy it new/secondhand or get it out of something
hey you got some more pics of the system all finished
I took it from an old freeser that shops use to store ther icecreams etc... I didn't notice any waird noises coming from it when I tested it to see if it works, but it was on for only few seconds so I could be wrong...The thremometer says-34c at this moment @1.825v and 3300mhz on full load. Wait it dropped to -35 for a second:) Ambient temp is 22c. Too bad my CPU temp still says 0c...I will just have to hope the sensor will start working again. I will post some pics if I find anything usable since I dont have any camera at the moment.
Here's one:
And heres a better one.Still without the insulations tough:
It would apear that I have a leak somewhere in the sytem:(
This morning it was doing -33c at full load but when I got back home from work I put the compressor running and waited untill it went to -30c and fired everything up. while I was browsing the web, I noticed that my evap temp had gone up to -14c! And that was with only folding@home running in the background and at 50%load...
The project is now on hold untill I get my first paycheck(maybe in a month or so) and then I get proper gauges and start really troubleshoot and finetune the system. I might end up changing allmost everything in the system if I get the inspiration. Actually I wasn't even satisfied on how this compressor preformed and the noiselevel and weird noises it made got me thinking on getting a better one. I still have the 1/5hp aspera that didnt make any funny noises so I might test how well it preforms or just use both of these as a vacumepump...
Well this was my first try at phase change so I can be quite pleased on the results I got.Better luck next time:)
It's great what you have done on your own, I'm sure that your next proyect will be better than this with the experience you had gained.
Thanks:)
I might try to make a very samall direct die system out of the 1/5hp aspera that I could fit in a small case like a prommy... Or another powerfull system If I can find a suitable compressor somewhere:)
hatemi..if ur cpu was at -15 with cpu at 50%...im think its pretty justifiable, nyways..awsome project
im guessing its leaking from the hoses where it screws onto the schaeder valve.
put the hole evap into a bucket of water so it covers the evap plus hose fitting.
i found that mine was leaking there the other day.
the other end of the hose was a little harder to tell if leaking though.
Soap+Water is the way to go when searching leaks :).
http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfold...apy_water_.JPG
Ill have to test with soap water but it's going to be in next week because I'm going to a festival this weekend to see bands and get very very drunk. Hey what else did you expect? i'm finnish after all... First things first;)
I'll post some pictures of the system as it is at the moment. This is picture of the evap base after I took it apart. Contact was quite nice:)
And this is what the insulation looked like:
I found the leak. I tried soapwater in every possible place in the system, The connectors, brawed joints, even the valves but I needed to rip the insulation fromm my evap and sink it in a bucket. It was leaking a small buble every five seconds or so:( I will propably make another evap with somewhat similar design as the baker block has. and I have an idea of a small and easily made evap for gpu too:) I will post the design if I can get it done with cad.
what did you use as a hold down when mounting to the mother board.
I used a 2cm thick plywood plate as a hold down. It looks ugly but gets the job done I suppose:) On the back of the mobo I used vasoline, armaflex and 4mm thick plastick plate and I could see the ice forming on the plastick...
u could prob use some foam before the plastic
thanx hatemi.
i had a go at trying to make a hold down on the week end, it was much harder than i though it was, i didnt succeed, have to do a little more thinking/planning and try again
also what is better for insulating (best insulator)
neoprene or white foam
Polyurethane is one of the best insulators and with some practice and carfull planing you can use it to insulate the whole evap assy:) I actually tried to use PU foam and molded my whole evap in it but I wasnt very satisified with the results so I tore it apart and used armalfex as an temporary insulation.
Regular styrofoam is usable insulation but its too fragile and soft. I am propably gona use Finnfoam ( http://www.finnfoam.fi/ ) wich is heated and tightly compressed insulation foam. It is propably made from the same material as regular styrofoam but its denser and and therefore better in this particular use. I think I will just cut it to proper dimensions and heat the evap so hot it will start to melt the foam and just press the evap in the foam making a really tight fit:)
I will post some pictures of my first attempt with PU foam in a minute. And after that I 'm getting in bed really freaking fast because today I did a 16 hour day at work and that is quite hard when you have been drunk for three days and barely slept in the whole weekend! Thank god I didn't have hangover taday or else I would have quitted the job...
I used some small pieces of styrofoam on the top of the evap just to keep the hold down at right position before the urethane was dry but it didnt work as planned...This is what it looked like before I sprayed it full with foam:
And here you can see how the foam expands and starts comming out fromm small holes. If the mold is too tight and the foam can't get out, it will brake the whole mold. It expands up to 50% of it's original volume, and it has so much forde it can twist walls and brake window and door frames if applied carelessly. I have even seen it used to lift the foundations of an old house that had silghtly collapsed from one corner!
Wow. I can't wait to see that mounted.
nice stuff i have to find some
dont know where though
oh, lol, very sweet, but how are u gonna mount it?
You can get the polyurethane foam from your local home improvement store i guess.
The mounting is just the regular screws and bolts kinda thing but I will need to get it better and fix the leaking evap. I might aswell just try how well the aspera compressor preforms because I dont trust this Danfoss. I Can hear the valves clicking when its running and it runs so dam hot you cant hold your hand on it even for a second! I'm not sure if it has the propper ammount of Oil in it but as I dont have any oil to add in I cant try. Im going to get some POE oil next month when I get my paycheck so I might aswell trie to change the oil fromm mineral to POE and see If it helps.