Auto-Cascade plan

I'm planning to start with an autocascade so would like some views from the vets regarding my plan. Here's a rough sketch:

http://bravo.ausgamers.com/lardarse/lard/autocas1.JPG

Basically I plan to use a 1 HP Med temp Rotary R22 compressor that are commonly used in window A/Cs. I will use R22 and R1150. Mineral oil will be used and should travel with the R22 nicely and the R1150 should be pretty oil free.
The phase-seperator will be the condenser which will have 2 "T"s piped upwards for the vapour R1150. I saw a small nice condenser that will do this job at the shop just the other day.
Something like this will work?

http://bravo.ausgamers.com/lardarse/lard/autocond1.JPG

The HX will be a compact liquid/gas HX which should have enough surface area I hope.
I added in a hand-valve at the liquid line of the R1150 which will be opened during start up to reduce the pressure especially when the HX is not down to temp. This will be closed when HX is down to temp. I do not know if this works at all?
Both stages will be cap tubed, I was thinking of using something close to what my 2 compressor R22/R1150 cascade used. 1.5m of 0.031 for R22 first stage worked good on my cascade but I don't know if such an unrestrictive cap tube would have a much higher % of R22 in gaseous form which will then be traveling with the R1150 to the HX?

Cool!!! Another project.;)

I'm new to Auto Cascade, so I'll watch closely. Maybe I'll learn something ..

I'm sure you'll do a "Bang Up" job. LardArse;) Good Luck

Arghhhhh, damn high school exams... if it wasnt for them.... !

What is the hand valve for ?

Thx Runmc, I'm also very new to this, so I'm lookin for views from the vets such as Gary and Chilly1.
Berkut, what I intend for the hand valve to do is to reduce the head pressure during startup before the HX goes cold. This will be opened until the HX gets cold and then closed. I do not know if this will work?
Since they share the same suction, if the evap ends up at -80+C, low side at about 10 PSI or so, condensing temp will be ~ -30C with R22. That will make high side pressure ~ 300 PSI, pretty scary for me. Too bad I do not have R507 or R404A.

What about this?

or this

Thx Chilly, that last pic seems close to what I plan. What is the rectangle just out from the discharge? Is there a need for the desuperheater?

Compressor/oilseperstor/filterdrier/phase seperating condensor/suction desuperheater/interstage condenser/evap/pressure expansion valve/ And capillary tubes, the CPEV is to adjust and maintain the delta P between the condensers. If needed the CPEV can be put in the other suction line.. And I would use R507...

The oil cooler/ oilseperator/ filterdrier are nessassary in that order the filter is there and will be fine as the oil cooler drops the temperature enough to cool it below where it will burn the oil/ filter medium.

Hi LardArse ....
First of all deepest respect to you and your work. I have followed your previos cascade very closely ... Also, good thing you didn't kill yourself with that ethylene bottle... :toast:

Congratulations also to your decision to now try an auto-cascade!!! :banana:

I am currently in the planing and testing phase of my first cascade system. Once that is up and running I will also modify it and try to auto-cascade it :cool: :cool: :cool:

Your drawing and the one's from chilly look very good ...

What do you think about using SWEP plate heat exchangers???

Keep us up to date ... :D

Chilly:
Wich Program are you using for thosse images (if made by yourself)?

to my knowledge anigma and myself are the only to build a fuctioning autocascade. in my opinion, its not worth the headache if you are just going for cold. they can only do as well as a 2 stage classic cascade anyway without adding phase seps and heatexchangers. and seriouse mental breakdown of course :D

love the drawing LardArse
the laws of physics i just love it

Quote:

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Originally posted by LardArse
Thx Chilly, that last pic seems close to what I plan. What is the rectangle just out from the discharge? Is there a need for the desuperheater?

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The desuperheater will help prevent slugging but isn't nessassary use a suction accumulator...

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Originally posted by captaincascade
to my knowledge anigma and myself are the only to build a fuctioning autocascade. in my opinion, its not worth the headache if you are just going for cold. they can only do as well as a 2 stage classic cascade anyway without adding phase seps and heatexchangers. and seriouse mental breakdown of course :D

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Yes, I know its easier to do it dual compressors, but I want to try it for the fun of it, plus I want to try to make a compactised rig that will be displayed outside a shopfront/office. I'm still deciding whether it will be cooler to have an autocascade display or a dual evap display rig. Its even harder with R22, but the price of it just sways me too much :) I want to add R290 to lower condensing pressure of R1150 but with the autocascade it will probably "distilate".

Thx placebo, the plate exchangers I havent even seen one before and they are not available to me without some import. But the gurus have good things to say about these.

Chilly, I making it with intention of compactising it so i'm trying to cut down on the unnecessary baggage. I'll see how it goes if I really start on it.

Well I've kick started the project, but now am leaning towards the dual evap as most people I've asked said that it would draw more attention than an autocas at a shopfront to the main public.
But of course an autocas would be mouch more fun for me.

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/1.JPG

1HP R22 hi-temp Compressor
I'll try to work out dual evap cap tube length and see if it is acceptable to the gurus such as Chilly and Gary :) I'll be using a R22/R290/R410 blend which gave nice results but I expect condensing pressure to be ~ R507 or a bit above with my ambient. ~ 220 PSI at load I would believe.

You'll probably need a new filter as you uncapped thet one and humidity spoiled it

That doesn't look like a filter/drier. It looks like a strainer.

Looks Like a strainer/distributor...

Quote:

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Originally posted by LardArse
Yes, I know its easier to do it dual compressors, but I want to try it for the fun of it, plus I want to try to make a compactised rig that will be displayed outside a shopfront/office. I'm still deciding whether it will be cooler to have an autocascade display or a dual evap display rig. Its even harder with R22, but the price of it just sways me too much :) I want to add R290 to lower condensing pressure of R1150 but with the autocascade it will probably "distilate".

Thx placebo, the plate exchangers I havent even seen one before and they are not available to me without some import. But the gurus have good things to say about these.

Chilly, I making it with intention of compactising it so i'm trying to cut down on the unnecessary baggage. I'll see how it goes if I really start on it.

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If you add R290 to lower the condensing pressure install another phase seperator and heat exchanger to take advantage of it to cool your r1150 so you cool it in three steps instead of 2 this will reduce you head and increase your COP.
I can get stainless plate HX's for you they cost around 200US

Thx for the info chilly. I guess autocas will be for next time as I have decided on dual evap first.

Just did a bit of piping and brazing:

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/2.JPG

I'll be trying out another type of simple evap design such that I don't really need to drill much. Much easier to make, I dont mind losing 2-3C.

1.5M of 0.031 fof GPU and 1M of 0.031 for CPU is this ok?

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Thx for the info chilly. I guess autocas will be for next time as I have decided on dual evap first.

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That is very, very sad ... :mad: :mad: :mad:

I was hoping so much for the autocascade. I know that it is extremely difficult to do but on the other hand it is very, very cool.

And as far as I am concerned I would imagine that people would be more impressed when looking at a refrigeration system using one compressor with 2 different refrigerants. (But I guess that is just my personal opinion).

Nonetheless, I am sure that you will get an awesome system up and running and I am already looking forward to watch it closely.

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to my knowledge anigma and myself are the only to build a fuctioning autocascade. in my opinion, its not worth the headache if you are just going for cold. they can only do as well as a 2 stage classic cascade anyway without adding phase seps and heatexchangers. and seriouse mental breakdown of course

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What refrigerants did aenigma and captaincascade use in their auto-cascades? I would also be very interested to know the ratio! :slobber:

Have a good weekend .. :D

Actually the ratio of refrigerants is easy to calculate you want balance so base calculations on the enthalpy of the refrigerants this will give you the approxmatley the ratio you will need to tune it based on the effeciency of your HX's and the phase seperator you use. Also the metering devices will need to be proportional.. If you use CPEV's and an epr you could dial it in and use a common pressurs and temperature to calculate. For a more accurate also take into the change in density versus temperature and compare the refrigerants at different points in the system...

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Actually the ratio of refrigerants is easy to calculate you want balance so base calculations on the enthalpy of the refrigerants this will give you the approxmatley the ratio you will need to tune it based on the effeciency of your HX's and the phase seperator you use. Also the metering devices will need to be proportional.. If you use CPEV's and an epr you could dial it in and use a common pressurs and temperature to calculate. For a more accurate also take into the change in density versus temperature and compare the refrigerants at different points in the system...

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Thanks for that answer chilly, that makes perfect sense....

I am currently planing on using Propylene for the High Stage and Ethylene as the low stage refrigerant. I will try to use the same refrigerants in the traditional cascade first to gain experience. However, since there are only a handful of people and companies out there that have succesfully finished such a system, I'd really like to know what you guys have used and/or would use.

I already have some Dupont Suva 95 (R508b) ... however, I am not sure if it would be a good idea and/or what to mix it with in an autocascade.
Discharge temperature, pressures etc. are a major concern (which kinda is the problem using R1150, I know that R508b would have a lot lower discharge temperature, but what does that mix with? :confused:...

Goal for the final system is it to "chill" a heat transfer fluid down to -80°C (which will probably require an evap. temperature on the low stage of around -100°C).
For testing purposes I have already obtained some Dynalene MV fluid, you can find informations at www.dynalene.com ...
I have two USG of this stuff, it is very smelly and will be replaced with a Hydro-Fluoro-Ether solution later on.

I am happy for every piece of qualified information that I can get at the moment. This should limit the mistakes I will make and the $$$ I will have to waste before I can get it right ...
:D :D :D

Chilly and LardArse ....

I am pretty sure you know these already (But I thought I'd post them anyway since it kinda fits in :) ... ---> http://www.revco-sci.com/ &
http://www.revco-sci.com/literature/...20Freezers.pdf

I spoke with Revco and they told me that they are utilizing a 5 stage Autocascade to reach -150°C . The technician I spoke with also said something about using a slightly modified 1HP Copeland compressor to handle the task. :D

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Originally posted by chilly1
Actually the ratio of refrigerants is easy to calculate you want balance so base calculations on the enthalpy of the refrigerants this will give you the approxmatley the ratio you will need to tune it based on the effeciency of your HX's and the phase seperator you use. Also the metering devices will need to be proportional.. If you use CPEV's and an epr you could dial it in and use a common pressurs and temperature to calculate. For a more accurate also take into the change in density versus temperature and compare the refrigerants at different points in the system...

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I dont know if this sounds dumb. But do many people in your trade measure refrigerant using weight? My dad was a heat transfer engineer for 20 years and according to him in the industry the system is set on a system of precise scales and the refrigerant is filled according to weight.

at the factory he worked at it took them 60 seconds to pull a vacume and fill the system with refrigerant. why do amatures use pressure?

please try to go easy on me if i sound like a moron for asking.

These systems have only about 2 ozs in them and when we mod them, we have no real idea where the charge will land so the only way to charge is superheat, temperature and subcolling, The refrence to temperature at a specific ambient is to base line an unknown system to get you near the desired performance. Weight when measure into these systems is less than your hoses connected hold so it is nearly impossiable to weigh it in unless you have a pressure graduated cylinder and then temperature needs to be taken into account. As to pulling a vacume in 60 seconds that is impossiable with the portable equipment we use and a 60 second vacume on a system that has been previosly charged it will take a lot more time than 60 seconds.

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Originally posted by chilly1
As to pulling a vacume in 60 seconds that is impossiable with the portable equipment we use and a 60 second vacume on a system that has been previosly charged it will take a lot more time than 60 seconds.

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oh i know that. i just mentioned it because i thought it was amazing how quickly they could vacume and charge a system. its not a small group of people doing it. a multimillion dollar company does it.

Condensing unit is done just waiting for my stainless steel hoses to arrive.

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/3.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/4.JPG

Planning to put it behind a case:

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/12.JPG

Here's the evaporaotr for the GPU. I would have wanted to dimple the base but its only 3mm thick, from a spare copper plate I have.

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/5.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/6.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/7.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/8.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/9.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/10.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/11.JPG

Stainless Steel; hoses finally arrived.

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/14.JPG

GPU evap

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/15.JPG

CPU Evap:

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/16.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/17.JPG

Original cap tube that ran through suction hose is brazed shut somewhere in the brazing process so I had to drill a hole to fit in another cap tube. Not so sure how the refrigerant will flow now, hope it works ok.

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/18.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/19.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/20.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/21.JPG

Time to vaccuum :)

i love it

WOW!!

Lardarse you have really got the hang of this. Your mind picked it up so quickly. I just wish I could get a handle on it like you have.

Truely amazing!!:D

Heheh thx guys :D
I hope it works well, should at least give me -30+C loaded I hope :)
Problem is I ain't got heatload nor the hardware to test it out yet. :(

Congrats LardArse!!!

Can't wait to see the first resultts ... :D

well done love the evap design's too

Love the setup. I'm wondering how you finally decided to calculate the cap tube lenght for each evaperator?

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Originally posted by zabomb4163
oh i know that. i just mentioned it because i thought it was amazing how quickly they could vacume and charge a system. its not a small group of people doing it. a multimillion dollar company does it.

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Probably had huge vacume tanks with chilled percititors and cold traps.... like four or five 100hp vacume pumps.

GOOD JOB... cool design can't wait to see the loaded temps...

Hey Chilly,
Am dropping off a 190# toy at Overnite Freight dock tommorrow :D

C

cool... may be a few days till I can look at it.... I almost cut my finger clean off... it is also broke... cut 3/4 the way through my ring finger and broke th bone under the nail.... 10 days off....

wow chilly....
that's immensely SCARY!
Take Care!!!

C

Woah Chilly careful there! Don't lose your fingers before you get --150C :)

Need to shorten the CPU cap tube or lengthen the GPU cap tube it seems the GPU evap is getting the lion's share. I followed Chilly's cap tube reccomendation roughly but I've cut the cap tubes a few times so my tube length is a lil off.

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/22.JPG

Niow I do not know whether to shorten CPU cap tube or lengthen GPU cap tube, floodback occurs pretty fast from the GPU side. The CPU takes about a minute + longer to frost back.

Ouch... Having almost lost a finger to an ice machine auger, I know what you are going through, Chilly1. Take care of those fingers. You are going to need them. Be careful, take it easy, and get well soon.

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Niow I do not know whether to shorten CPU cap tube or lengthen GPU cap tube, floodback occurs pretty fast from the GPU side. The CPU takes about a minute + longer to frost back.

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Cap tubes are sized for a specific heat load. You can't tell if they are right or not until the evaps are fully loaded, not to mention insulated.

You do have the longer cap tube on the GPU evap, right?

Quote:

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Originally posted by zabomb4163
I dont know if this sounds dumb. But do many people in your trade measure refrigerant using weight? My dad was a heat transfer engineer for 20 years and according to him in the industry the system is set on a system of precise scales and the refrigerant is filled according to weight.

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Someone at the factory has gone to a great deal of trouble to tweak a typical system using subcooling and superheat, etc., under tightly controlled conditions, in order to determine the ideal refrigerant charge (by weight). It is then printed on the label, so that all systems of that model can be easily and quickly charged, the assumption being that they are all identical. Of course, no two systems are exactly alike, but this gets the (mass produced) system in the ballpark, and it works, saving a great deal of time and money.

Tweaking is more accurate. :D

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Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
Cap tubes are sized for a specific heat load. You can't tell if they are right or not until the evaps are fully loaded, not to mention insulated.

You do have the longer cap tube on the GPU evap, right?

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Yes I do think so, but I've cut bits when testing after brazing so now its a bit of a ?. I've put in a bit extra to account for the cutting, I intended the GPU to have 0.2M of 0.026 longer, but I think now they're quite close in lengths. Think I'll shorten the CPU cap length.

im finishing my high school exams next week so soon ill be back in buisness

very nice system

i think the floodback occurs faster on the gpou evap as it works upside down

I went through a good deal of trouble to find the ideal static charge of the MachI and machII and this still only gets me in the ball park to where I can measure and tweak ...

Thats a very nice Cascade you have there Lardarse, and its a wee bit smaller than your other :D

Infact, that other cascade of yours is so bulky, huge, and takes alot of juice, you should probably just freight it to me overnight, i dont mind :D

The second system is not a cascade setup, it's a single stage dual evaperator system

Nice system. I didn't understand how a dual evap would work before this.

Anyone done a triple evap?

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Originally posted by pippin88
Nice system. I didn't understand how a dual evap would work before this.

Anyone done a triple evap?

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LardArse, Nice Work! Luv that piping! :)

Bowman played around with a triple evap and eventually discarded the thing. It's in the "Modshop thread" somewhere, iirc.

sorry, thought it was an autocascade. Even though it isnt, its still awesome. I want to learn more about the whole dual evap thing because i plan on doing a dual evap eventually. Is there a way you can use a short piece of cap tube, and have a valve at the end that can be turned to restrict more/less, to give the same effect of a longer cap tube without having to go through the hassle of re-charging the system?

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sorry, thought it was an autocascade. Even though it isnt, its still awesome. I want to learn more about the whole dual evap thing because i plan on doing a dual evap eventually. Is there a way you can use a short piece of cap tube, and have a valve at the end that can be turned to restrict more/less, to give the same effect of a longer cap tube without having to go through the hassle of re-charging the system?

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Good question ... I believe that when we went through planing and testing we were using a hand valve as well. If I remember correctly it worked quiet well! :D

Quote:

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Originally posted by pippin88
Nice system. I didn't understand how a dual evap would work before this.

Anyone done a triple evap?

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Yea bowman has. It didnt work to well. Hard to tune and -40C directly on the NB made condensation issues galore.

hmmm...

I wonder if you could take a piece copper pipe, and run the cap-tube in it with a nut/bolt inside, and have a magnet outside to turn the bolt, to keep the entire valve inclosed. It could also be made fairly small too...

AHHH, i need to draw a picture!

Insulation:

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/23.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/24.JPG

Foam tape looks so much classier than duct tape.

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/25.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/26.JPG

Quote:

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Originally posted by someone
hmmm...

I wonder if you could take a piece copper pipe, and run the cap-tube in it with a nut/bolt inside, and have a magnet outside to turn the bolt, to keep the entire valve inclosed. It could also be made fairly small too...

AHHH, i need to draw a picture!

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not sure if it would work need a really, really strong magnet
chech this out if you interested in not using cap tube and want an adjustable one (by berkut)

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...threadid=35262

God, I'm so out of my depth with this stuff it isn't even funny :(

Finishing her up:

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/27.JPG


http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/28.JPG


http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/29.JPG

Blend's giving me -59C @ 8" HG, High side 230 PSI, can go up to 240+ PSI

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/30.JPG

A lil sad that the 1HP rotary sounds like what it should sound, not silent.

Nice LardArse :). Wish i had those refrigerants you have :D. Or atleast that R22.

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Originally posted by pc ice
no i dont think so.no magnet will be strong enough.

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Theres no way it will work, it simply wont turn the screw, even if you'd use one from a tokamak (nuclear fustion reactor- they use it to hold and compress plazma consisted of heavy hydrogene)

Blend ? You mixed R22 with R410 ?

I think they won't blend azeotrpically on their own? I have R290 + R22 + R410 -> few gushes For the rest of the top up if charge not enough I will use R22.

Trying out the orientation on an ancient casing:

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/31.JPG

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/32.JPG

Hi LardArse...

Congratulations on your new beauty. She really turned out wonderful. :banana:

I also "hope" that this cleares the road for your autocascade project ... :D

However, I did have a question also ... I am currently designing a chiller which will operate at around -80°C ... I have the heat transfer fluids, special pumps, stainless steel hoses, etc ...

However, I still need a "Chiller-Block" for the liquid to circulate through. This needs to have connection for the stainless steel hoses ... Also .. whoever builds this one for me should also take care of the insulation and "case" with the mounting holes etc....

Can you or anyone reading this help me out?

Awesome work :D

To bad your not in the states and able to mass produce them :p:

I hope you plan on puting it in a MAC!

J/K


Very nice, keep up the good work LardArse. :banana:

Big mac attack>>>> OC a G5 and then run super PI????

Thx guys, still waiting for the hardware and casing for this cooler. Probably an A64 3400+ with Albatron mobo and a 9800 series card.
Placebo, you can get the stainless steel hoses made to end with a copper pipe or swivel nut like these:

http://www.vr-zone.com.sg/Shamino/dualevap/pics/14.JPG

I would suggest copper pipe ends which you can braze onto your block like in my pics.

Or you can have a pipe with a flare end and a flare nut to connect to the hose through a flare connector like this:

http://www.vr-zone.com/Shamino/cascade/casartpic78.JPG

But of course you will need 3/8" or bigger pipes for good flow of liquid. I still don't see the advantgae of chilled liquid, only more work and trouble.

I'd much prefer a brazed connection myself especially on a part where temperature will fluctuate.

First of all thanks for your response.

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Placebo, you can get the stainless steel hoses made to end with a copper pipe or swivel nut like these:

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I have considered both, the nut and braze on solution for the stainless steel hosing. I haven't decided which one to use yet.
The one problem I am still having, is that all stainless steel hoses I have looked at, had a "rubber" hose in them (mostly teflon PTFE) ...
PTFE does not widthstand temperatures of -100°C (at least I don't think it will) ...
Also ... what would you recommend as a sealant when using the "skrew/nut" connections? Viton?
So my question is ... what type of hoses do you use ... e.g. in your ethylene cascade?

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But of course you will need 3/8" or bigger pipes for good flow of liquid. I still don't see the advantgae of chilled liquid, only more work and trouble.

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I guess this is all a personal taste ... I like the idea of having an autocascade chilling a liquid which will than cool CPU, NB and a Video Card ...
Personally I have not seen this done at a temperature range of -90°C - So I figured ... why not?

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Probably an A64 3400+ with Albatron mobo and a 9800 series card.

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That sounds like a winner to me ... And I have always liked the AMD performance in 3D Games (perfect to show off :D )
Don't forget to get some decent memory ... My favorites at the moment are the OCZ EL's ...

One last question ... are you still planing on realizing that auto-cascade?

Good Luck!

You would wanna use Stainless steel inner also. Copper washers and leak lock as sealant will be fine as suggested by Chilly. I'm using telfon hoses ATM on my cascades, slow leak through these, will be switching to full stainless steel when my copper washers arrive.
Autocascade, yes, why not, it will be very fun :)