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Hi everyone,
I am in need of a small quantity (5 lbs or less) of Refrigerant Grade R600a (isobutane), and have been searching for several days to find it available in a small disposable cylinder heare in the United States. Obviously I haven't had any luck doing so.
If I lived in Europe this would be a no brainier.
So does anyone kwow of a good source here in the US?
Matheson Trigas, but they are jerks and have constant billing issues that they'll blame on you. If it's a disposable though, then no rent.
Hi Michael,
I bought iso-butane from Matheson, but I wish I hadn't. They are just the middle-man and marked up the price significantly. I would try this source next (have never used them but they carry small cylinders.
http://www.advgas.com/readyshippurities.aspx
http://www.advgas.com/readyshipcontainers.aspx
Kevin
I just sent off an inquiry to Advanced Gas Technologies and I'll be sure to post how this all goes. Thanks for the link Kevin.
I know about the middle man factor with the normal gas suppliers in my area, as well as the problem with getting very small sample amounts. Even when dealing with large amounts of refrigerants you really have to be careful. As an example one distributor I got a quote from had R14 going for $40/lb whereas another one had it at $18/lb. This was in a 70lb cylinder in both cases. Go figure?
Well I got a quote for the smallest amount...
Isobutane grade 2.5 (R600A) 5lbs $75.00
Fuel surcharge: $19.95
Hazmat fee: $14.95
Invoice Fee $3.00
Shipping from Palm, PA to CA $160.00
Plus State Sales Tax (if applicable)
Lead Time: 5 weeks
Cylinder rental: Approximately $0.76/day
Or you can purchase the cylinder (does not include gas) $140.00
So it looks like it would be $272 not counting the tank rental or purchase. Obviously the tank rental is out of the question because you'd have to pay return shipping as well. So purchasing the tank would make the most sense.
Grand total would be $412 or in other words $82/lb :eek::shocked::confused:
Pretty much blew me away! I've asked if they have disposable cylinders, but at this point I seriously doubt I'll be going this route.
The sad thing is I only need about 2-3 ounces for a couple of tests. Heck 1lb would be way more than enough.
I'm not that far from Palm, PA
I emailed them for a quote as well. If its a tiny 7lb tank we could arrange a better shipping situation.
Did you ask about larger quantities? The price per scaling at least with Matheson was often that a small cylinder was 5x the price of a larger one. I bought 20lbs of r1150 for the price they quoted me for 5lbs.
I really don't want a huge amount on hand, and as I said, all I need is a pound or less for prototype testing. So if you plan on buying some anyway, perhaps you can fill up something like an accumulator with a schrader valve on it and PM me a price.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Wow Michael, sorry about all the add on fees. I bought 15-lbs of iso-butane from Matheson and it cost me $495. I also bought 5-gallons of iso-pentane from South Hampton (in Texas). The product cost $110, but the shipping was $140! It really sucks when it costs more to ship something than what you are buying.
Kevin
Yeah tell me about it :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Hotton
I'll see if I can do pickup.
Just for grins I decided to check the UK, and here is what I found...
A place called DIYTools.co.uk located in Liverpool England.
Attachment 125401
They sell 420 Gram disposable cans of R600A refrigerant for 14.39 GBP (22.86 USD), and will ship to the United States as well as other countries. After adding in the shipping, the total cost to my location in California was 34 USD (seems too good to be true). So I ordered 1 bottle which will give me about 10 charges for my application.
When I get a tracking number, I'll find out how long it'll take to get here (can't be much worse than that other place I got a quote from). I'll be the guinea pig on this one, to see if this actually happens or not.
Heh I've seen those; but was trying to avoid international shipping on a flammable. I guess it will depend on what topper is on the can.
Well like I said, after I entered my address and entered United States from the drop-down selection box, my total came to $34 including shipping. Then I selected PayPal as my payment method, and everything went through without a hitch. So I guess I'll see if this really happens without getting kicked back.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
The top appears to be made just like an R134a can, and apparently uses the same tap valve (they sell this as well, and from what I could see in the picture, it looks the same as a tap valve I use).
Can that be purged and such to maintain purity? Those style toppers and such just seem to scare me.
Yep I know what you mean. So I'll be transferring it immediately to another tank with a good valve on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
@mytekcontrols, Over the last year or so i've ordered 3 cans from DIYtools. Yes i am in the UK, but had no probs with delivery or the valve either.
Would be interesting to see how it works out from them from your side of the "Pond".
Thanks for the heads up. Good to hear that they are a reputable company.Quote:
Originally Posted by kitfit1
Ugh crap.
AVgas is Matheson in another name.
Well the DIYTools transaction just cleared my PayPal account yesterday, 10 days after my initial on-line order was submitted. So I guess that means the R600a is on it's way without any last minute price changes. Now I'm just wondering how long it'll be to get from there to here.
I can hardly wait :slobber:
Well I knew it was too good to be true. Today DIYTools did a full refund to my PayPal account, with no explanation given. I'm thankful that I didn't loose the money, but sad that I am once again left looking for an inexpensive source for R600a.
So the search goes on.
Hi Michael,
Sorry to hear they cancelled your R600a order. My experience has been this: I first bought 15-lbs of "instrument grade" 99.5% purity from Matheson for $495 (I get to keep the cylinder). I am now trying AirGas. They have quoted $280 for the same amount and grade. I have ordered it and should receive it in a couple weeks.
Kevin
$280 for 15-lbs ($18.66/lb) sounds fairly reasonable. Does the AirGas price include the cylinder, or are you renting it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Hotton
Renting I believe, but is normally very cheap and reasonable thru AirGas vs Matheson.
2008 price national welders:
17lbs instrument grade +tank= $365
Item number O82542
Thank you Britt :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
I am also pursuing some of those other leads you gave me by PM... Scott Medical Gases did not have iso-Butane, but they do have High Purity Propane available in 14 Oz quantities (have to call for pricing). Aldrich Chemistry has it by the name 2-Methylpropane in 100 Gram (SKU 295450-100G) and 350 Gram (SKU 295450-350G) amounts, for $110.00 and $143.50 respectively, both shipping from Milwaukee. And last but not least, I have requested a quote from United Refrigeration who are a distributer for National Refrigerants, and they have P/N 016R600A listed as 16 Oz. R600a.
Until I hear back from United Refrigeration, Aldrich looks pretty good for my small quantity requirement. Their 350 gram option would provide me with enough to do just over 15 CryoBUG test charges (more than enough for my proof of concept needs).
I'll keep you guys posted as to what I decide to do, and with any other sources and pricing I find.
Edit: Price update. If I order 350 grams of R600a from Aldrich using FedEx ground, the total cost comes out to $186.00 (includes Hazard fee, shipping, and CA sales tax). It appears that the order can be placed by registering at their site, answering a bunch of questions, and then submitting an online order. First time may take several days to be approved based on the information you submitted during the registration process.
Have you checked here?
http://www.mesagas.com/Instrument%20...re%20Gases.htm
They are in Cali.
It appears that they have iso-Butane as part of their offerings so I sent them an email to ask for amounts and pricing. Hopefully they'll do a better job at responding then United Refrigeration (I sent those guys an email and two messages through their online contact form with no response).Quote:
Originally Posted by ultralo1
Let me get to the shop tomorrow. I have national refrigerants number. They have a great refrigerant engineer there. He is very helpful and is very conversational with refrigerants. We had a great discussion about a month ago about the different properties of 508b and 23.
Got a reply from Mesa Specialty Gas, and here is what they have for iso-Butane (R600a)...
Attachment 126854
Shipping depends on the cylinder size, but would be in the range of $10-$35 + $35.00 dg fee paid to the carrier.
This makes them slightly more expensive than Sigma Aldrich, which had 350 grams for $140.00
Britt, I first contacted National Refrigerants, and it was them that directed me to United Refrigeration as their wholesaler. I haven't actually called them on the phone, just been getting no response via email or their contact form. So I'll probably try and give them a call.
Any results?
To me I'd have gotten the 5lber and sold it off after getting what you wanted out of it. Or splitting it with someone :waves:
It just pisses me off that I can't get a small amount at a reasonable price. It just seems like everyone's got their hands in the pot with all the :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: extra charges.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
i do understand what you are saying about splitting the cost, but I am still holding out for a while longer to see if I can find someone in the US that has one of those disposables they want to get rid of for a good price. In the meantime I have plenty of other aspects of the project to work on to keep me busy.
Thanks to Adam for steering me in the right direction, I finally got pure iso-Butane at a reasonable cost.
As it turns out there is a company called Wall Lenk that makes a laboratory butane burner, mainly used by small dental offices for sterilizing instruments. The fuel that they provide turns out to be pure iso-Butane (see MSDS), and is packaged in 5.5oz disposable cylinders. The manufacturer doesn't sell these items to the public, and I soon found out that their normal distributors don't either (gotta be a Dentist or work in a Dental Office).
Anyway I ended up buying 4 cylinders for $11.79 each from an Ebay company called Med-Supply-Online.
Here's my Wall Lenk iso-Butane stash (with one more on it's way)...
Attachment 128312
Not knowing exactly what kind of piercing adapter would be required, I ordered only the fuel to begin with, hoping that my R-134a adapter might work. After the fuel arrived, I could see that my my adapter was just not going to hack it, so I ordered one of the Wall Lenk lab burners which I'm sure can be adapted to my needs.
Wall Lenk #65 Lab Burner...
Attachment 128313
I spoke with the owner of Med-Supply-Online about his stocking situation for this product, and if it would be ok to post a link in these forums. He said that they would have this product available in an ongoing capacity, and would offer discounted shipping dependent on how many are ordered at one time. So here are the links...
Store front: Med-Supply-Online
Fuel: Wall Lenk #65F 5.5oz iso-Butane
Burner: Wall Lenk #65 Lab Burner Head
Burner Complete: Wall Lenk #65 Lab Burner Head and 5.5oz iso-Butane Fuel
I made two separate orders (one for 4 cylinders of fuel, and the other for the Burner Complete package, thus giving me a total of 5 fuel cylinders) so I ended up paying a bit more for shipping, but even so the total came out to $113.00. Not bad considering that the best alternative deal I could find would have cost me $140.00 for 350 grams, and I ended up with over twice that amount (780 grams).
I'll be transferring all of the iso-Butane into a standard 15lb refrigerant recovery tank having a dip tube. Thus making it easier then using it directly from the bottles and more accurate when weighing it into my units.
Good to hear a start to a success story.
Wall Lenk #65 Burner Head arrived today.
Attachment 128584
Here it is disassembled.
Attachment 128585
And here it is modified to accept standard 1/4" refrigeration hose.
Attachment 128586
What I did was re-thread the burner to 5/16"-24, and drill and tap a standard 1/8" NPT-1/4" Male Flare fitting the same. I then used some rectorseal on the threads, and assembled my new adapter.
It works great :up:
Edit: I noticed a small amount of butane leaking, so I cleaned off the Rectorseal, fluxed it up, and silver soldered it. Now it really works.
Edit: Just transferred all 5 bottles into a recovery tank. I now have 27 ounces of Iso-Butane for my CryoBUG experiments :yepp:
Awesome. Glad to see this worked out.
Yeah so am I.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Unlike a piercing valve situation, where once you screw in the pressure tap you are committed to extract the contents before the adapter can be removed. These bottles have a built-in depression valve that allows you to remove the burner head/refrigerant adapter anytime without loosing any gas (kinda like the ones on the green camping butane bottles).
Now I have to find some!
Check out those links I gave a few posts back. Med-Supply-Online still has both the fuel and the burner in stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
Nice to hear that you finally found some at a reasonable price. Here in Norway, "normal" refrigerants like R134a, R507, R410 and so on come with "environment taxes" which are almost 150% of the gas price itself! 1kg of say R507 is 120-140$, so basically 10 times (!) the price of what I believe you pay.
I repair appliances for a living, and we're just now starting to do refrigeration work - that is, change compressors, charge gas and so forth. Haven't had the tools or capacity thus far... Here, all freezers and refrigerators use R600a, apart from side-by-side types (which conveniently are called "american refrigerators"). We can get these small 55g containers for about $16.
May I ask what you needed the isobutane for?
Autocascade stage0 aux condenser refrigerant :)
Aha..! Yes, I have some vague memories from my past years here, where I learned that you could use a refrigerant which has a relatively low "saturation point" (better term?) in order to more easily condense the "tougher" refrigerants in an autocascade.
Is it like that, or am I remembering it all wrong?
[hijack]
I was really off with my estimate above. After checking an updated pricelist, I found that the taxes are between 136%-323% (!!!) on "normal" refrigerants. If I were to legally buy 1kg of R507 (which I reckon is not attainable, and I'll need to buy a minimum of 5-10kg), it would cost me $160.... Add another $170 in deposit for the container. Norway just isn't cut out for hobby-refrigeration... Oh well, guess I'll have to resort to BBQ-gas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big SturL
[/hijack]
Adam thanks for answering this question, I've been off in my own world lately and haven't checked back in for awhile. And yes the isobutane is being used as the warmest boiling refrigerant in a blend with 3 other gases to power a small autocascade system I am developing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big SturL
The source I mentioned on EBay dried up for a bit, so I ended up buying some more through IQ Dental Supply. After factoring in a qty discount for six cans + Hazmat Fee + Shipping, it ended up being $15 per 5.5 oz can (155 grams). Suprizingly much cheaper then what you get it for. Although the stuff I'm buying wasn't intended to be used for refrigeration (high purity fuel for a dentist's sterilizing burner).
Shoot they are all sold out heck even the burners are sold out.Quote:
Originally Posted by mytekcontrols
Was wondering if anyone tried ordering either of these of the internet and had them shipped here:
Ebay
Amazon:
Well I bought it from Amazon for approx 11.00 for 210 grams and paid 29.00 for 1 to 3 day shipping...
Scott that Ebay source looks interesting, but I'm wondering how much the shipping would add. Glad to see you found some locally.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdumper
I would expect that we should start seeing this stuff more readily available over here since EPA gave their seal of approval about a year ago. It'll just take a little while before R600a refrigerators become more common place in the states. And when that happens, the replacement refrigerant will be soon to follow.
Well I finally got around to trying to buy some to mix with some r14 and I cant find it anywhere :(
Does anyone have any updated info for Med Supply Online or another reasonable US source for r600a?
Air gas was willing to sell me "some". A "small" bottle. A "quaint" amount....
I had to buy 200 lbs.
200lbs are you kidding me :(
I really don't like Airgas...
I'm waiting on a response on a supplier for isobutane though of 10kg quantities. I'll let you know what I turn up.
Thanks again Adam!!
Hi Scott, here is where I get it now: IQ DentalQuote:
Originally Posted by sdumper
Keep in mind that there is a HazMat fee involved (I think this was $20) so buying in quantity is probably best to offset this. I usually buy 6 cans which is a case, and you get a slight discount as well.
Thanks a million the order went through very smoothly :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mytekcontrols
Item Qty Brief Description Rate Amount
WLC-65F 6 Lenk Butane Refill HZ Ea/5.5oz $9.26 $55.56
SHHZ 1 Hazmat Charges $27.50 $27.50
Total $83.06
Yeah that's the other source.
Just not very fun vs a nice big tank.
Im also wondering how to tap those cans to get the stuff out??
I doubt it fits a standard hose.
Try a side can tap, the kind that clamps around the can.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdumper
I also purchased one of their Dental Burners and converted it into a tap by removing the burner head and silver soldering in a 1/4" brass male flare fitting. But what Crabby is suggesting will probably work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby
However the nice thing about using the burner/tap is that you can remove it without loosing gas (top can tap is self sealing). You also get controllable on/off valving as well.
Bought the burner...is the burner assembly steel? If so couldn't i simply braze a shraeder to it?
It's steel, so you'll have to use silver solder and flux (I'm talking about real silver solder, not that cheap :banana: silver bearing solder).Quote:
Originally Posted by sdumper
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/~...=ffffff&mw=150http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/~...=ffffff&mw=150
I was using the can type style on isobutane refill sets that were marked as 99.5% purity isobutane.
It works.
But it feels terribly dangerous and you have no control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytekcontrols
Gotcha now I understand...when you said solder I had visions of a solder Iron :)
Should be able to do it like a normal copper to steel joint Scott. Do you have 45% silver sticks and flux? Just steel wool both sides first, make the fit perfectly snug, and only heat the copper. Ron taught me how to do it properly forever ago and it can be tough to get right.
Good to know thanks Adam.
Bump for another buy from the dental place.
Good store and Airgas just told me to go @$!# myself about any hydrocarbons due to flammability... then sold me a refill on my acetylene and oxygen. (D'OH!)
It seems like it's hard to find little bottle in the US ... I'm in France and doesn't have any issue about ordering a twelve pack of pure R290 and R600a. I can also purchase some R600. Around 6 € here ( 7,5 $ ) per bottle of 420 gr ( 15 oz ).
I got them on eBay.
On the other side, HFC gas like R134a and R404A are really expensive here, and I'm happy to deal with hydrocarbon to make such small circuit as fridge or little water chiller !
They made them legal then made them impossible to get. Gotta love it.