New to liquid cooling -- need suggestions - Money is no object :)

Well, I've been using air cooling on my home-built systems since as far back as I can remember with the pinnacle now being a Thermalright Silver Arrow with 3 fans. Well, it's upgrade time, and every time I've upgraded I've told myself "next time I'm going to water cooling." Well, this time I am.

I have a $2000-$3000 system counting individual parts ( Actually $3800 as I just dropped ~$800 on a Corsair 32GB kit of 1.5v DDR3-1866 , this is also not counting the new motherboard I bought -- Asus Crosshair V Formula/Thunderbolt -- plus an AMD FX-8150 processor which adds up to $570 ) so money is no object. I plan on customizing a Mountain Mods case and setting up a custom water cooling system but I'm unsure what to buy in terms of the "best of the best."

Certainly I will be using a high end water block similar in quality to a Swiftech Apogee HD or XTL. Also, something along the lines of high end Eheim pump. For the radiator something along the lines of the highest end Black Ice, XSPC or perhaps an Aqua Computer Airplex. I have no idea of what brand and/or item to use for the reservoir. Also, I need advice on a full board ASUS Crosshair V Formula waterblock ( if one exists ) and the best waterblock for a GTX 580 ( I have 2 ).

So, if money is no object and price has no limit, what would you guys recommend for the ultimate water cooling component setup?

Thanks,

jdb2

what are your goals with watercooling this rig? specifically, what temp deltas are you hoping for, do you want any semblance of quiet, what sort of overclocks (if any) are you shooting for, etc, and any other goals you feel like mentioning.

do you understand that even going watercooling, your overclock potential isn't that much better than you'd get from a good air cooling setup?

Ultimate would be entire custom design, but if you just want to buy MM CYO model (just preconfigured), I would go for extended ascension (huge case, make sure you have room for it).
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9615/lc:banana::banana::banana::banana:.jpg
I would use two 1080 (360x360) radiators, each with 4x180mm fans. Sure these fans are not as good as best 120mm, but to get to similar frontal area of radiators you would need 6 360 radiators, and at least 18 fans. Either setup is overkill, but the one with 180mm fans will be really quiet. All components in one simple loop, your water will have nearly ambient temperature no matter how many waterblocks you actually throw in. To properly mount these radiators, order 15mm vertical and horizontal spacing for vent holes on front and top panels.
This will not be even that expensive, relatively simple design, radiators are much cheaper than many smaller ones, you save on fans as well. This would be quiet performance monster. More expensive not always means better. Sure you can order 10 normal rads, put 50 fans into that setup, will cost lot more, but will be loud as hell too.

Also there is another alternative, what you mean by best setup. Is it only about huge case and performance, or exceptional build quality and design, then look for example for murdermod. It easily handles some regular sli setup, but is infinity times more refined than MM box.

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Originally Posted by defect9

what are your goals with watercooling this rig? specifically, what temp deltas are you hoping for, do you want any semblance of quiet, what sort of overclocks (if any) are you shooting for, etc, and any other goals you feel like mentioning.

do you understand that even going watercooling, your overclock potential isn't that much better than you'd get from a good air cooling setup?

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In terms of noise, 25dB or below would be nice. As for overclocking, I'm shooting for perhaps 5-5.5GHz for the processor. ( greater than 5GHz might only be achievable with a chiller ) Also, perhaps a 158Mhz overclock on both video cards' core clocks. ( eg. 797MHz -> 955Mhz) In addition, perhaps an overclock to 2000MHz on the RAM although I've heard that this ram can be pushed up to 2400MHz but I don't think that the processor's IMC could handle it.

I'd also like cooling on the chipset ( NB & SB ) plus the VRM ( eg. MOSFETs ) and my massive stack of hard drives.

jdb2

I guess I just need to shop around at Performance-Pcs or FrozenCpu to get an idea of what's "high end" and what I really need for my specific needs. There's so much stuff on the market it's hard to sort out. I think I just need to familiarize myself with the various brands and terminology.

jdb2

EDIT : I admit that this post was a dumb question.

This is Xtreme Systems and all, but how about sending a hundred bucks to a nearby children's orphanage or St Judes Children's Hospital, as a first step?

Now, with the unlimited remaining money you have, you can get something that does an excellent job like:

CPU - XSPC Raystorm or Swiftech Apogee HD
Board - You dont need a board block, unless you truly wish to flush the money down the toilet, only for bling. It does not get that hot
RAM - See board
GPUs - Two decent full cover blocks from EK or Swiftech should be great
Pump - One or two Swiftech 655/D5/Koolance 450
Tubing - Good ole Masterkleer works awesome and resists stains. The sweet spot is 7/16 inch inner diameter or 3/8 ID. The 1/2 inch by 3/4 OD stuff is hard to route in a case.
Radiators - Two or three XSPC RX 360s or 480s. (In a MM case, you can mount these easily, say two for the CPU and one for the GPUs)
Fans -Scythe S-Flex E models (less electronic squeal than the highly touted Gentle Typhoons)
Reservoirs - Regular tube reservoir mounted internally. Do not purchase a Koolance 452 or 402 dual reservoir unless you which to harm yourself mentally.

If you really like low temps and low noise, run the cpu on one loop and the gpus on another loop with fans set at about 1000 rpms. Very cool and very quiet.

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Originally Posted by jdb2

I guess I just need to shop around at Performance-Pcs or FrozenCpu to get an idea of what's "high end" and what I really need for my specific needs. There's so much stuff on the market it's hard to sort out. I think I just need to familiarize myself with the various brands and terminology.

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you'd be better off looking at tests and comparisons instead of looking at manufacturer numbers.

http://skinneelabs.com/
http://martinsliquidlab.org/
the stickies

spend a couple of weeks digging in and asking questions before buying anything.

I can make your "no limit" turn into OMFG WTF NO WAY!?!?!?!? in a matter of seconds., just from bitspower fittings.

its best you set a budget on lc... typically if u want a monster setup, u should start at 700 dollars just for the LC part.

Hmmm, extreme if money was no object...
3 loops, cpu, gpu's and board/ram
Lets go for a tested pump with redundancy - 6 DDC Pumps with dual tops - $600
Lets go with shiny res's - 3 FrozenQ Helix res's (different colors for each loop) - $300
Hmm, a 4 x 120 rad for each loop - 3 XSPC RX480's - $390
CPU block of choice - $80
Ram block - $70
Mb block - $120+
Full cover GPU blocks, SLI/Crossfire right? - $300+
12 san ace fans - $240+

Okay, we're up to $2100... since you have such an extreme setup, you'll probably want to get some nice bitspower fittings and some other bling, so lets put a $500+ budget for fittings, tubing and dye/fluid (if you don't want distilled + silver)

We can probably find some more cool stuff if money really isn't an object....

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Originally Posted by Panthols

Hmmm, extreme if money was no object...
3 loops, cpu, gpu's and board/ram
Lets go for a tested pump with redundancy - 6 DDC Pumps with dual tops - $600
Lets go with shiny res's - 3 FrozenQ Helix res's (different colors for each loop) - $300
Hmm, a 4 x 120 rad for each loop - 3 XSPC RX480's - $390
CPU block of choice - $80
Ram block - $70
Mb block - $120+
Full cover GPU blocks, SLI/Crossfire right? - $300+
12 san ace fans - $240+

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lulz.... are u reading one of the monster lc project worklogs?

or is this your dream setup?

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

lulz.... are u reading one of the monster lc project worklogs?

or is this your dream setup?

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Nah, that was just something I figured would well for him if he had an unlimited budget...

My planned setup is something much more extravagant but I haven't had the time. Maybe when I finish med school and residency I'll consider actually building it, but who knows how things will be in 6 years. For now it's just throwing everything into my old Mountain Mods cube (origional w/ non-removable front and back) and doing quick and dirty installs. I just don't want to drop that kind of money on the system I want when I'll be able to spend one or two hours a week messing with it.

Pffft i laugh at 2100 dollars for cooling, if watercooling is your main hobby you will just like me, spend alot more on it.

Actually, your question should be something else. If the money isnt a problem. Where can i find somebody who can advise me, mod for me and build for me the ultimate rig?

Or if you want to do it yourself, just start buying and testing and enjoy the full glory of getting what you want and spend :banana::banana::banana::banana:loads of money (road i took, its fun)

ps.: dont forget to buy all the tools required for making such a case! You will spend alot more on this then on your actual cooling or pc in the long run ;)
ps2.: If you take the long ass road, which is the fun road if this is your hobby, it will take years to find what you want. Nobody can give you a list on a forum and make you happy with it. The choise in IT is always 0 or 1. Pick one and have fun!

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Originally Posted by Panthols

Hmmm, extreme if money was no object...
3 loops, cpu, gpu's and board/ram
Lets go for a tested pump with redundancy - 6 DDC Pumps with dual tops - $600
Lets go with shiny res's - 3 FrozenQ Helix res's (different colors for each loop) - $300
Hmm, a 4 x 120 rad for each loop - 3 XSPC RX480's - $390
CPU block of choice - $80
Ram block - $70
Mb block - $120+
Full cover GPU blocks, SLI/Crossfire right? - $300+
12 san ace fans - $240+

Okay, we're up to $2100... since you have such an extreme setup, you'll probably want to get some nice bitspower fittings and some other bling, so lets put a $500+ budget for fittings, tubing and dye/fluid (if you don't want distilled + silver)

We can probably find some more cool stuff if money really isn't an object....

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OK. Well, that's a little too extreme for me :P . I should have phrased this post as a hypothetical question because I plan on building in steps in hopes of reaching my "ultimate" goal.

I've already decided on a case, namely a Mountain Mods Extended Ascension. I want the radiator(s) to fit at the top of the case so I need advice as whether to purchase a MO-RA3, 3x XSPC RX360s, or 3x Aqua Computer Airplex triples.
I haven't seen a review with all three radiators together which is why I'm asking.

I'd be getting a Swiftech Apogee HD waterblock for the cpu -- I'm not dealing with the video cards or MB/ram at first.

For the pump, I was going to go for a high end Eheim or derivative because of the high flow rates. ( eg. 1200 l/h ) But the Laing DDC pumps are "frictionless" so would it be better to use one of those due to the noise?


Right now, I'm looking at perhaps a $1000 budget with the aim of sustaining a 5+GHz overclock on my CPU. ( FX-8150 ) Do you have any other suggestions relating to the above?


Thanks,

jdb2

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Originally Posted by neonatas

Pffft i laugh at 2100 dollars for cooling, if watercooling is your main hobby you will just like me, spend alot more on it.

Actually, your question should be something else. If the money isnt a problem. Where can i find somebody who can advise me, mod for me and build for me the ultimate rig?

Or if you want to do it yourself, just start buying and testing and enjoy the full glory of getting what you want and spend :banana::banana::banana::banana:loads of money (road i took, its fun)

ps.: dont forget to buy all the tools required for making such a case! You will spend alot more on this then on your actual cooling or pc in the long run ;)
ps2.: If you take the long ass road, which is the fun road if this is your hobby, it will take years to find what you want. Nobody can give you a list on a forum and make you happy with it. The choise in IT is always 0 or 1. Pick one and have fun!

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The problem is that I'm a perfectionist. Up to now I've been able to determine, with great confidence, what components are the "best" or at least the "best for me/my-budget." With water cooling there's so much to choose from that I'm suffering from a kind of mental overload. Hence the reason for my original impulse driven post.

jdb2

Maybe I should just stick with my current air cooling setup. I'm in over my head. Oh well. :/

jdb2

Don't worry about being in over your head, that's what the forums are for. Just be a little specific about your budget next time :). I'd recommend going with a basic setup and expanding from there.

If you start with a CPU only loop, just go with one 120 x 3 radiator for now and plan to possibly expand from there later. There will be a decent investment at first but it will allow you to get your feet wet (hopefully not literally) and decide if you really want to pursue this hobby.

Swiftech Apogee HD - $75
Swiftech MCR320 - $65
EK DDC Pump top with res & pump - $145
15' Masterkleer tubing - $10
Basic fittings (non-compression) - $20
3 Yate Loon 120mm fans - $15

Total - $330

You will get great temps with almost no noise. This won't look as amazing as some of the builds you see but it is a good starting point. As far as pumps go, it's pressure over flow as long as you stay over 1 gpm, this is why the Eheim pumps aren't too common anymore. Just start off small and build on that, if you encounter any problems there are tons of great people here to help. Just remember to have fun with it!

Edit: The thing to remember, is a lot of people here might say which rad is best or which cpu block, but your looking at most 1-2c difference between blocks. Rads don't really matter as long as you don't go beyond their cooling capacity and everything else is just personal preference. So look around, read the stickies and consider our advice, but if you can't decide on a component just pick which one you think looks best. If you take a build that was only the best performing components vs the best looking, you'd be lucky to find a 3 - 4c difference.

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Originally Posted by jdb2

Maybe I should just stick with my current air cooling setup. I'm in over my head. Oh well. :/

jdb2

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Every single one us felt very similar to how you do now when we started as well, stick with it and it'll get easier with time, patience and research. :up: ;)

yeah, like waterlogged says, we all been there. It took me 2 years of off-and-on research before I was willing to take the plunge.

personally, i like the Swiftech MCP 35x pump. for a CPU only loop, it's got more than enough pressure/flow - and it even comes with a decent res/top as well as being PWM. just my 2cp.

as far as being in over your head - sometimes you just gotta take that leap into the deep end, and learn to swim as you go. eventually, you'll figure out for yourself what you want and how you want to get there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

lulz.... are u reading one of the monster lc project worklogs?

or is this your dream setup?

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I think he's reading the specs of one of your systems? :rofl:

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Originally Posted by jdb2

So, if money is no object and price has no limit, what would you guys recommend for the ultimate water cooling component setup?

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So....I'll just say it: If money is no object, what the heck are you doing with an 8150? And why advertise you have gobs of money while seeking help from a community populated with people who've worked very hard on their passions...many of whom are repressed into frugality by this nasty little recession we're in?

My point? I think you'll get more attention on this site without flashing your cash around...this isn't a strip club after all (insert club music unn-shh-unn-shh). I can bench press 400+ lbs, but I don't go :banana::banana::banana:ging around in a "smedium" t-shirt with flashing neon statistics, rubbing people's noses in it. A little modesty will take you much farther here IMO.

Now...ahem...if what you say is true, here's my recommendation:

1. Case: You need a big one. MM makes some killer cases, but the options can be a bit overwhelming to a noob. Have you seen the The Little Devil LD PC-V8 HPTX? It is huge, attractive, and can accommodate your needs, all while containing 3 very large radiators. I have some experience with this one. The red is more a of a maroon color / not the Crayola red of your ASUS components...so I'd stick to black of I were you. If you get the case first, it will be much easier to see what it is that you need. Get your hardware mounted, start measuring / planning. There is only so much you can prospect from the website's pictures.

2. Your 8150 (I'm an AMD fan BTW) is currently getting its rear end handed to it by even the i52500k. Not a good choice if money is no object. If the $ is there, get either the Intel i7-3960x, or the i7-3930k (Both are futureproof with the LGA 2011 socket / Ivy Bridge ready along with pcie 3.0 among other bleeding edge developments). Of course, there is always the EVGA SR-2...if you want to run dual CPUs...this is all up to you.

3. Next step...figure out which motherboard supports your needs, but ensure someone is making waterblocks for it. Check EK's website...they announce manufacturing plans from time to time.

4. Your PSU needs some beef...and it had better be a really good quality one...your 1K is not up to the task....recommend 1300w minimum.

5. GFX Cards: Same as the motherboard, see if there are waterblocks available for them. If I were you, I'd wait for the pcie 3.0 AMD 7xxx or Nvidia 6xx to hit retail first. Since $ is no object...go quad SLI with whichever card is the most expensive. If you're BSing or are actually economically minded, do your research first and check to see how they scale. For instance...there are plenty of situations where 3x GTX 580s are actually detrimental to performance. Tri SLI is a waste of $. Up to you.

6. Pumps, fittings, radiators, tubing, reservior, fan & pump controller: This is where you can go absolutely nuts with the options out there. There is NO definitive path here...you must choose what you want. Look at it as being fun, but realize there are many, MANY options. For you, I'd run a single loop with two 655 pumps for redundancy. For your fittings & tubing , the appearance is whatever you want, but the best flow / volume is going to be (Tubing) 1/2" ID 3/4" OD, and (Fittings) G 1/4. You can use either barbed fittings or compression fittings...the compressions are by far the most expensive and best-looking. When you order a compression fitting, make sure it is for your 1/2" ID / 3/4" OD tubing. I personally cut through the BS and use only Tygon lab tubing (Get around 20 feet or so).

7. I'm out of time...When you get everything together, post a worklog and keep soliciting people for help. Just be sure to return the favor once you've harvested some free hard-earned knowledge from this place.

Good luck, and happy spending

Josh

yeah... op... the moment u came in with money is no object, that tend to set yourself up for a bullzeye...

typically unless u have post count like mine... and u known to splurg big time... a project which says money is no limit is tended to get hit by the fire squad.

OP as i have said.. we can and will scare ya on the price for a topic header like this... the best thing to do is set a finite budget... assume u may exceed it by 25%... that is typically a good point....

25%? Come on, most of us have gone to 100%+ of our original budgets. My budget was 1500 and I think I've spent that on my pump case and radiator.

So, if money is no object and price has no limit then why go AMD?

Just sayin....

^hahaha. /Agree

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Originally Posted by Eeeaugheeeaugh!

I can bench press 400+ lbs

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Dude, rly? Only 400lbs? Is that all? (JK, but hypocritical much?)

@OP: Don't freak out, take a deep breath, and just scale back your goals for your first water cooled rig. It's your first water cooled rig, so just remember that you don't have to build a dream rig and win the grand prize at a national LAN party with your first attempt. You are guaranteed to make some mistakes, and you will definitely buy the wrong thing, and/or change your mind half-way through the build, and/or ruin components/ parts/ the rug, but w/e, you will definitely learn a few things. (And hopefully this forum can help you prevent catastrophic loss, like a leak that ruins your whole computer.) The only way to really learn this hobby is to jump right in and start doing it. Trial by fire. Learn by doing. Or insert w/e cliche you like better. Anyway there ain't no shame in being a noob, everybody's been there, so don't be afraid to ask questions.

Well with keeping it simple in mind here is my suggested list of things to buy:

First off: Do one giant loop for your first build, it will make things much easier (and many would argue that one loop is better anyway)

CPU - XSPC Raystorm

Board - Add this later

RAM - Add later

GPUs - w/e fits your budget, but I would recommend getting pure copper blocks, i.e., do not get nickel plating, b/c EK blocks are good, but they had a problem with the electroplating coming off, which is something you don't need your first time out (actually this is something you don't ever need, and it is totally annoying when it happens to you, just saying), so stick with all-copper regardless of brand. Besides nickel plating only decreases heat exchange anyway.

Pump - One or two Laing DDC 3.25's (or re-branded versions from Swiftech or Koolance) with a dual combo top is probably the easiest way to get good head pressure in a combo loop. Mount the pumps on the bottom of your case with a cylindrical reservoir on top. Really simple would be a single DDC 3.25 with a reservoir on top of the pump. Don't worry about maximizing flow rate at this point, you will get around 0.8 - 1.0 gpm flow rate with only one pump.

Tubing - Primochill tubing. Get 1/2" ID tubing, and 1/2" barb fittings. Keep it Simple. USE TUBE CLAMPS. Get colored tubing if you want to make it visually appealing. DO NOT USE DYES.

Fittings - Barbs give best performance, but actually compression fittings might be easier to use. So this is your choice. Try to minimize the use of fancy fittings like extenders, 180 degree snakes and the like, as you don't really need them, and you won't really know what you need until AFTER your loop is built. So hold off on exotic fittings until your second build. Also try to minimize the use of 90 degree elbows for your first build, until you learn how they impact your flow rate. Now as for a drain plug, in your first build, I would skip it, and just put a set of male and female Koolance VL4N quick disconnect fittings in the line right before your pump(s).

Coolant - distilled water plus a few drops of PT-nuke, or some other biocide. (WARNING: USE ONLY 2 or 3 DROPS. Otherwise you will create a copper sulfate solution in your tubes, created when copper ions are leached from your copper and brass components, which will turn your water brown and make it smell like metal, and which will leave nasty dark brown stains wherever it spills. I umm, heard this happened to somebody, once, in the past.)

Radiators - Easiest way to go is 120mm form factor. XSPC RX series rads are good and use 6-32 screws. Also I like HW Labs SR-1 Series rads, but they use M4 screws. (Also consider Swiftech rads as a beginner as they are good value, if not best performers.) I would say if you want to run fans under 1,100 rpm then use the XSPC RX series, if you want to run fans of greater than 1,200 rpms, then use the SR-1 series, or if that is too confusing, then just use Swiftech rads. (On your next build you can try more exotic radiators, like a 140mm.)

Fans - It's pretty easy: for 120mm size, Scythe Gentle Typhoons are the best fans that you can get (if you can get them that is). (S-Flex are basically second best alternative. I have them all: S-Flex E, F, and G, and all of the GT's, and I can attest that the GT's are superior in every way.) My advice is to keep it simple and get the AP14 since you want quiet operation AND high performance (lol, which is what we are all still looking for btw). Your other choices are the AP13's for more quietude, or the AP15's for more performance. For your first build just go with single row of fans, mount them in push or pull, depending upon whichever is easiest orientation to put into the case. Don't go crazy trying to optimize fan placement on your first try. (If you get hooked on this hobby, you will spend the rest of your life trying to squeeze another 2% of performance out of your fans with the use of shrouds, and double rows, etc. But for right now, just do whatever is easiest.)

Reservoirs - go simple, go with a single cylindrical reservoir mounted on top of the pump(s). As for size, you are really only limited by your case. Bigger never hurts, but you really don't need more than 150ml.

Case: Mountain Mods is an awesome company, and I have spent much money there. But you maybe want to start simple, so maybe try a Corsair 800D or a CoolerMaster HAF. If you are heart-set on MM, maybe try the Pinnacle 24 case with a 480mm rad in the top and a 360mm rad in the front, or a U2-UFO with a 360mm rad in front and a 240mm rad in the back.

Final words of advice: just get it built, and see how it performs. Then you can start the never-ending process of improvement and upgrades.

No I don't "hypocritical" much...even a developmentally challenged hypocrite wouldn't attempt to use the word "hypocritical" as a verb. How'd you do in grammar school? Oh...and why did you tell him to avoid spending lots of $ on fancy fittings, then turn around and convince him he needs compressions and koolance qd's? You my friend must hypocritical all the time...while wearing a space helmet, mouth guard and mittens. If the OP reads your advice he will not only never build a wc rig, he will probably jump off a tall bridge in an attempt to quiet the stupidity now infecting his head...and it will be all your fault Mr. grammar genius.

I recommended what I did because it's simple, good quality components that you can most likely completely or partially reuse if you plan to continue water cooling. I specifically said the Swiftech CPU block because that is what the OP mentioned multiple times, and as I stated, the difference between the best and the prettiest components is going to be 1 - 3c at most. Some things to follow and you won't have any problems:

1) If you aren't using compression fittings, use hose ties. These range from zip ties to $10 clamps.
2) Pay attention to flow direction, some blocks are picky about it. Primary thing to remember if you have a separate res and pump... Pump pulls from the res.
3) Leak test before turning everything on. Simple jumpered PSU works or you can buy an AC to DC Molex adapter if you want to get fancy.
4) Start off simple and go from there. You might be able to spend $1000+ now but it's better to spend $300 and find out that you don't like it. You will always find a use for the extra equipment if you really get into the hobby.

The gear I posted is good, tested products that have been around for a while. It's also pretty inexpensive so it's a good starting point. The biggest thing now is finding a place to start, after that you can start making more informed decisions on what you want and where you want your eventual build to go. You can even hold off on the MM case for a while and just use a gutted fan to hang your radiator from the back of your current case while getting familiar with water cooling.

The only reason I posted like I did the first time was the "unlimited budget" thing... Give me a truly unlimited budget and I'll probably drop $5,000 - $10,000 on cooling. I'm sure there's people here that have. Probably even posted in this thread 3 or 4 times already... :)