Windows 8 (storage implications?)

So windows 8 will be available in a few hours for those with TechNet, and several hours later on the torrents, of course!
Gonna D/L off the technet and maybe see if there are any types of storage differences.

hopefully there will be optimazations for SSD for the love of christ, is there some coding changes in this OS? the WIN7 treatment was superficial at best. Cant wait to run a simple winsat and see what the differences are. I have a test OS on a 256 C300 and am going to install to a identical C300 and do some comparisons.

of course i would love to see others results as well, lets see what happens!

i thought that MS was putting out the redskin win7 with the universal UI option for windows8 being demoed and not windows8 yet

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Originally Posted by Computurd

So windows 8 will be available in a few hours for those with TechNet, and several hours later on the torrents, of course!
Gonna D/L off the technet and maybe see if there are any types of storage differences.

hopefully there will be optimazations for SSD for the love of christ, is there some coding changes in this OS? the WIN7 treatment was superficial at best. Cant wait to run a simple winsat and see what the differences are. I have a test OS on a 256 C300 and am going to install to a identical C300 and do some comparisons.

of course i would love to see others results as well, lets see what happens!

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Where did you read this? I'm out of the loop.

I have a technet liscence, so I can see if it's up.

gah i may be incorrect here...this is the page.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/home/

what exactly does it mean by 'preview'?

yeah i dony know either. its D/L now so we will find out shortly

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Originally Posted by IFMU

what exactly does it mean by 'preview'?

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its a pre beta, from what i gather its the post PC UI on windows 7, but im going to instal it and take a look

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Originally Posted by Computurd

So windows 8 will be available in a few hours for those with TechNet

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or here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/br229516




EDIT: doh! Computurd beat me to it

got it installed...much different, but the internals look sevenish in some ways of course.

i'd be very surprised if there were any improvements to the way SSD's are handled in Win8 versus Win7, at least at this stage of the dev cycle. If any optimizations come then I'm sure it'd be later on.

I'm not all that sure what really could improve at the O/S level if we're already getting the full speed of the drive from Win7, I could see maybe extra user options for setting things like how aggressive TRIM is, or the ability to set extra paremeters like strip sizes when configuring software raid in Windows Diskmgmt. There is of course still that gaping feature hole which is TRIM being incompatible with striped arrays (both hardware and software raid), so while getting the feature implemented is complicated by Microsoft and hardware raid vendors having to work together, at least windows software raid - which MS has full control over - would be great if it gained TRIM support. This is really an area that MS could capitalize on with CPU's being more powerful than ever, and the hardware raid controller market continuing to taper downward.

OTOH I'm kind of expecting not much attention to be paid to enhancing disk I/O at least with any of the ideas I mentioned, as it seems the push right now is toward the lowest common denominator end user, its no coincidence that Apple is making boatloads off products tailored toward consumers/dumb end users and along came MS with the tiled Metro UI which first appeared on Zune to compete w/ iPod and then spread to Windows Phone, and will continue spreading as Microsoft-defacto on Xbox360, Windows O/S, Surface and whatever other devices they're working on. I'm sure I'll like Win8, but honestly my first reaction to Metro UI was "Fischer Price".

http://c3.diapers.com/images/product.../fs-229_5z.jpg

I downloaded last night, was thinking of putting it on a laptop.

Looks like a W7 with a new GUI from what I can see.

I was going to put this on a vhd, for those familiar with vhd can I make one on a raid array? And if so am I able to attach a vhd on a raid array during the W8 install process?

Thanks.

no implications here

as far as alignment goes..

win7-103424kb

win8-359424kb

Looks like Windows 8 automatically detects SSD's and runs TRIM optimisations instead of defrag. :cool: (It can trim SF and Intel drives)

Attachment 120378

Nice find! :up:

It looks like MS have made a special version of the standard MSAHCI driver:

Driver Version 6.2.8102.0 (win8m3.110823-1455)Date: 21/06/06

I wonder if it can detect drives in a raid array.

[QUOTE=Ao1;4956381]It looks like MS have made a special version of the standard MSAHCI driver:
Driver Version 6.2.8102.0 (win8m3.110823-1455)Date: 21/06/06
Strangely, the W7 driver is also dated 21/06/06. It seems something went wrong there, there are several versions of it dated the same day.

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I wonder if it can detect drives in a raid array.

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To do what exactly? If the controller provides such data, it can, but what it can do based on it is a different question.
E.g. Areca provides some data about individual drives in an array, but I believe it only provides SMART attributes.
It can't do TRIMs if the controller and controller driver don't support it. It is above the disk manager level.

Very nice find on the defrag!

yes excellent find! I havent had time to dig into this...

Tried it from inside a VM - no go :( (attached a physical disk). recognizes it as an HDD.

You get a bit more info when a file is being xfered.....

Attachment 120441

You also get an option to copy a file path on the explorer tab:

Attachment 120442

Whoa.....:eleph:

I created a raid 0 array and it looks like you can TRIM the array using the optimizer :party:

C drive - raid 0


Attachment 120443

This is the default raid driver that Windows 8 installed

Attachment 120444

now that changes things quite a bit!
first thing to do i guess is to get an array into a degraded state...then TRIM it and see if it recovers performance, i.e it actually works...

we need to think of a way to come up with a test to see if it really works :)
that would be very exciting if it does!

"fsutil behavior query disabledeletenotify" returns a 0.

I ran Anvils app and I got a "TRIM" hang when the loop ended. I tried to disable TRIM via the fsutil command to see if the TRIM hang disappeared and it returned an "access is denied" error.

I'm not sure how else I could check (hIOmon does not work on Win 8) but it really looks like TRIM is working.

Attachment 120466Attachment 120467

Win8 TRIM confirmed working on Vertex, C300, Intel 510, Vertex 2, and Vertex 3 on a SATA analyzer.

I then used a bus analyzer to check the Revo X2. The command is sent, but it doesn't get through to the Revo X2.
Revo has its own RAID drivers, so that doesn't mean it won't work on the mobo's RAID solution, but it's not something I can check at the moment.

wendy, was it working in raid?

From the old thread that I made regarding checks of whether TRIM works, X25-M seems to correctly reflect a TRIM state - i.e. returns ZEROES for TRIMmed locations - so it can be used to check if TRIMming a RAID works.
Connect 2 X25-Ms in RAID, make a large file, delete it (it should cause TRIM), or run the trim from "Defrag". Then try to restore the file, if it is mostly zeroes (but still retrievable), TRIM works.

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Originally Posted by alfaunits

From the old thread that I made regarding checks of whether TRIM works, X25-M seems to correctly reflect a TRIM state - i.e. returns ZEROES for TRIMmed locations - so it can be used to check if TRIMming a RAID works.
Connect 2 X25-Ms in RAID, make a large file, delete it (it should cause TRIM),

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Delete cannot initiate TRIM on any OS that has a trash can that allows undelete. On Windows 7, you have to empty the trash to initiate TRIM, and it should be the same on Win8 unless they abolished the trash can undelete.

I suppose that depends on your definition of "large file", though, since if it is large enough then it does not go into the trash (Win 7 warns you about this).

Yes, I presumed an actual Delete, rather than a Rename into recycle bin.

Large as in large enough to surely be across several pages. Even 1 MB should be enough.
Something relaly large as in ISO files would be more useful to see whether TRIM works at all, whereas a 1MB file is sufficient for SSDs that always return ZEROes for trimmed LBAs (some SSDs mark the LBAs empty, but still return its data when it's read before an actual erase cycle - X25-M as seen by anyone doing the test returns zeroes).

ok well i remember quite clearly that intel had stated that the current hardware couldnt support trim..this was prior to the new chipsets though.
so wondering if this is only possible with the SB gear?

or is it even possible at all? we need confirmation here...

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Originally Posted by Computurd

So windows 8 will be available in a few hours for those with TechNet, and several hours later on the torrents, of course!
Gonna D/L off the technet and maybe see if there are any types of storage differences.

hopefully there will be optimazations for SSD for the love of christ, is there some coding changes in this OS? the WIN7 treatment was superficial at best. Cant wait to run a simple winsat and see what the differences are. I have a test OS on a 256 C300 and am going to install to a identical C300 and do some comparisons.

of course i would love to see others results as well, lets see what happens!

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Have you tried LSI and Areca RAID controller in Windows 8? Does it work?

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Originally Posted by Computurd

ok well i remember quite clearly that intel had stated that the current hardware couldnt support trim..this was prior to the new chipsets though.
so wondering if this is only possible with the SB gear?

or is it even possible at all? we need confirmation here...

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I remember Intel stating that as well, which makes me sceptical. (Especially as I'm still using ICH9 :p:). The raid array consists of a V2 40GB drive and a V3 60GB drive.
Anvils app generates a "TRIM" hang, which makes me think TRIM is working. If it is a TRIM hang that means TRIM is working in the background and not just when the drive is manually optimized.

In the Intel Toolbox the array appears as "C: Intel Raid O Volume" and it is greyed out. The SF drives appear separately. The OCZ toolbox can not detect the drives at all.

Edit; Hmm, I updated to RST drivers and the array still appears to TRIM. Now I'm less sure.

Well, try to recover a deleted file and if it has zeroes :)

Not sure if anyone tried to access an NFS share, but I was able to simply add mine via search or just inputing the pathway. In win 7, I had to change registry settings and and install the NFS portion of windows as well. Huge improvement.

Not that it's HDD related, but it works very well on my 15" touch screen. :up:

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Originally Posted by alfaunits

Well, try to recover a deleted file and if it has zeroes :)

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I can still see files that have been deleted after a "TRIM" using a hex editor. The files are also recoverable. Dang.

Vertex 1/2/3 is not guaranteed to act on TRIM (it is rather guaranteed to not act fast enough :D).
So try some X25-Ms (Intel/Kingston), they proved to be affected by TRIM (i.e. returning zeroes after a page is trimmed).

I would try it myself, but I only use laptops since last year, so I have no place to test :)

overthere was kind enough to make a special version of hIOmon that works with Win 8. In AHCI mode TRIM commands can be observed. In R0 TRIM commands could not be observed, so there you have it; no TRIM for R0. :( Sorry about that. On the bright side maybe it is a feature in development that will eventually work.....nah, who am I trying to kid. :rofl:

Technically TRIM can surely be passed down below RAID level - I think the RAID makers just don't want to do it (it is added testing hustle that gains no buyers directly).

wow BIG thanks to overthere for making this version to help us nail down the issue. Kudos overthere :)

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I think the RAID makers just don't want to do it (it is added testing hustle that gains no buyers directly).

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i have spoken with a few raid company reps (Lsi, Areca, Highpoint) and they all say pretty much the same thing. Different ideas of how to get it done are causing the issue. There is no real standard that has made it a Spec yet, so they are mired in disagreement.
Its a case of everyone wanting to do it, but no one agreeing on how.
and with enterprise class stuff, unless there is a Standard they will not move forward.

Quite welcome and happy to be of some help, but special thanks to Ao1 for doing the actual verification.

For me, one of the more difficult challenges was finding how to shutdown the "Windows Developer Preview" OS with its new user interface; I will admit that I initially resorted to the three-finger salute. :)

Anyway, I am generally hesitant to mess with an OS version until it has been officially released and is "stable".

But in this case I saw another XS Forum vanguard effort (and admittedly was intrigued as well).

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Originally Posted by Computurd

i have spoken with a few raid company reps (Lsi, Areca, Highpoint) and they all say pretty much the same thing. Different ideas of how to get it done are causing the issue. There is no real standard that has made it a Spec yet, so they are mired in disagreement.
Its a case of everyone wanting to do it, but no one agreeing on how.
and with enterprise class stuff, unless there is a Standard they will not move forward.

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There's no RAID6 standard either and it's probably one of the most used things in the enterprise.
There's little to standardize for TRIM though - either you split it and pass it or you don't pass it.

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Originally Posted by overthere

For me, one of the more difficult challenges was finding how to shutdown the "Windows Developer Preview" OS with its new user interface; I will admit that I initially resorted to the three-finger salute. :)

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Same here :)

I ran a boot up comparison between Win 7 & Win 8 and it’s significantly different. (Both fresh installs with the same apps loaded). Overall my response times <1ms are worse by a couple of % with Win 8, which might be down to the standard Win 8 chipset driver I’m using.

Boot up with Win 8 looks like it has been designed around “slow” processors /HDD’s. Although you appear to get to the desktop quicker very little is actually loaded. Only 41.48MiB of data is xfered by the time you get to the desktop, (which requires navigating past the log in and “start” screen). That compares to 326.72MiB for Win 7.
Some apps/ processes that are scheduled to load as part of the boot process with Win 8 are noticeably delayed.

It’s a shame Windows can’t configure itself to work faster when it detects a faster systems.
(Stats from hIOmon IO Ranger)

Attachment 120681

Well that is a HUGE bummer, that is the exact opposite of what we were looking for. This sounds reminiscent of Vista booting, where you see the desktop, but it is basically unusable for a full minute, as it has a gimmicky load structure. Very busy with other work right now, but i would like to test performance right "out of the gate" with Win8 right now. As simple as hitting the internet the very second the computer screen comes up...with Vista you would wait wait wait....
I hope they arent going back to the quick load "trickery".