Rf-83

I was looking at the rf-82 II for a long time but iv recently come into the availability of getting the RF-83 at a cheap price, Im wanting to know what the major improvements over the rf 82 that makes the 83 so much better. From what i hear the 83 and 82 are in a totally different ballpark for performance, the 83 has a larger tweeter and a extra 8 inch woofer with better materials in the woofer and cabinet.

How does all these affect the sound and with the frequency range from 29-21k will the high end frequency sound different to that of the 24 k that the 82 II can do.

thanks.

All the below explanations are based on just raw speakers concepts. Oftentimes the quality of a speaker defies rational understanding.

A larger tweeter allows for louder high tones and a more smooth crossover into the mid-range drivers
An extra 8-inch woofer (assuming the woofers are identical) just adds more kick. If they were separates, they could each separate and specialize in certain tonal ranges using an in-cabinet crossover between the two
Better cabinet materials absorbs echo noise (literally from echo within the cabinet)

Cool, thanks mate.

The larger tweeter will broaden the tweeter's mid range and make a nicer transition to the mid range woofers. The difference is difficult to predict, as each enclosure will create different curves. Though taking the enclosure out of the equation since Klipsch uses horns on just about every tweeter, it's safe to assume the highs will not be as bright(which will not likely be noticable) The big differences between the two is power handling. The new reference speakers will handle more power with a stronger tweeter and an added woofer(when compared to its smaller brother). The 83's are powerful speakers whether it comes to music of movies, it will provide enough power for sure.

Thanks nano that helps a tone :)

hey quick question nano, if you have a receiver that is 5.1/7.1 and you only connect the front speakers to it, does all the rated rms power from that amp go directly to the front speakers or does the power get split up seperatly ?? thanks bud.

amp power from a surround receiver does not automatically go into the fronts if only those are hooked up. Amps do not work that way. At best you can use the last 2 channels to bi-amp the front channels but that is receiver Dependant for the option.

Also, many receivers rated output power is only when single channel is driven and often at only a certain frequency like 1kHz and not a full 20Hz-20kHz signal. So you need to make sure your receiver is capable of driving those speakers you are looking at. I dont know of any normal receiver that can provide the power you need. The RF-83 is rated for 250w rms, which is the rating for a continual 24 hour use. The peak is 1000w, which means that the "program" wattage is 500w. That is the power the speakers should get for normal use during movies and such and the speakers are able to handle that power for a period of a few hours easily before they start becoming stressed and heating up too much. It would be considered "ok" to give these speakers anywhere between 250w-500w of power.

You are most likely going to need to use the pre-outs on your receiver to go into a much more power amplifier. Also make sure that the power amplifier has the right wattage in the 8 ohm rating area. You can look at a 2000w power amp like the Behringer EP2000 and think "oh that is way too much", but really for stereo use in the 8 ohm rating, with a full frequency signal it only puts out 350 per channel at 8 ohms.

Quote:

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Output power (20 Hz-20 kHz @ 0.1% THD, both channels driven) per channel stereo mode: 350 watts RMS @ 8Ω, 500 watts RMS @ 4Ω, 650 watts @ 2Ω

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So just be sure when looking at output power that you are looking at the right stuff.



If you are thinking about getting a lot of big speakers like this that require a lot of power for a full surround setup, then you might want to consider an amp like the Carvin DCM2004L which is a quad channel amp that puts out 300w @ 8ohms into each of its 4 channels

People will sometimes tell you that "you dont need that much power" as you wont be listening to things at such high volumes. But with explosions and such, or kick drums in music the dB level can peak as much as 15dB higher for that split second when it hits compared to the listening level your at. You need the power so you can properly hear these peaks in your music and movies. Also the lower you get on the frequencies the speaker is trying to produce, you usally get higher and higher impedance, which means at those impedance levels the power amp isnt putting out as much power. So you need the headroom to allow you to produce those really low frequencies as well.

What i have atm is

1295 watts x 7 channels = 185 watts per channel @ 6ohm pre out available

2nd receiver @ 80 watts x 2 channels @ 8ohm pre out available

3rd sub amp @ 200 watts x 2 channels @ 6ohm

Im assuming my main receiver will be enough to power it for the time being until i get a proper and more powerfull amp to fully open up these speakers, my main receiver does not have a bi wire setting so that idea is out the door.

The cheapest and best thing i could possibly do is buy two amps and bi amp the speakers as my choice for high end power amps are very limited and they can be quite expensive, im thinking something like 2 denons or 2 pioneers etc.

There is a huge misconception with power in general. If you drive something like an RF 83 with 100 watts it would be loud even in a large room. You do not need 200+ watts I assure you! :) I drive my speakers with about 70 watts and for a good audience it is plenty loud. What people want with the "400 watts" is the low noise amplification. What you want to look for is something that can handle the power level you desire, but also do that within an acceptable range of low noise... don't let the power rating fool you :)

Yea i done a lot more research on that factor and i came up with some interesting finds, when it came to powering the rf83 i found that obviously @ 1m you could get 100db with 1 watt and so i found

dB watts
100 1
103 2
106 4
109 8
112 16
115 32
118 64
121 128
124 256
127 512

This is the output rating for the rf83 but the calculation can be the same for a lot of other speakers i presume, so with 140 watts you can pull out 120db of sound and then i calculated the distance it would travel with sound pressure loss and came up with this.

140 watts @ 4m = 107db @ 12db drop, this was using a formulated calculation program.

So from what i know you really only need around 70-90 db for a decent sound output so this sort of psu will be enough unless those variables change eg distance or power.
The most thing you would have to worry about is the THD over the frequency range making sure that from 20hz-20khz... range the THD values are low, another thing is the impedance because the nominal value is not constant and can drop or raise according to the frequency it is playing so getting a amp that is well known for handling those low impedance drops is important to help deeper base and preventing amp shut downs and heating.

Correct me oh powerfull nanometer if i am wrong i just work out as best i can how things work and i think im pretty close :), if all goes well after a little more research i will have a rf83 set by next thursday but i am still not excluding the RTI 9's just yet and the LSI 15's are a possibility.

While im at it would this be the correct terminology for how volts, amps and ohms would work.

pressure point (volts) ++
current (amps) ---
resistance (ohms) ___
+______
+______----

(suppose to be a diagram of a pipe)

For a amplifier pressure point would be the engine to drive the amps and ohms would be how much of that current can be sent through ( like increasing the size of a water pipe to allow more volume ), so when you increase the size of the resistance it requires more volts and power because more current is required to fill the new resistance size.

hope thats right :).

a lot of people and text books compare water flow to current flow, it's good for giving a basic idea, but the best way to understand it is to really look at current in its own form. Though I think you did a good job of explaining it.

The first thing I would do if my power source could drive more power than my speakers could handle, is to limit my maximum volume. Sending 500 watts of power to speakers that can handle 300 max is asking for a blow out. And besides, your ears will start exploding at 250 anyways.

db rating is a sound pressure rating, and it doesn't really reflect quality sound. however, a speaker rating with a high sound pressure handling does typically mean it will handle its power better, and thus better quality sound.

I think?

Thanks for getting back nano, i did a lot more research since my last post and im fairly certain in my decision for the RF 83's now though if i had to choose out of the RF 82's and Polk ATI 9 it would be polk hands down :).
Il let you know how things go on thursday when i get them.

Well i went and got them, just in time too as they were almost gone if i didnt show up today they would be. In perfect condition no marks scratches i would say its in better condition than the one in harvey norman, the drive up was interesting having to take a big horse truck to carry them in xD.

I sat in the back of the truck making sure nothing happend and secretly having sex with them "looks away", got home hooked them up and....

They are Ok, better than they played in harvey norman and they dont clip or distort at all when cranking up the volumes which was good to know but i think i may need to get a much better amp to get these babys cracking the mids and lows better. My decision still stands as the best i will not be those who cry because it dont sound awsome with their crappy amp, il be ohnest the amp used is one of those cheapo's that comes with sony's 7.2 htddw7500 system so i expected it.



So the verdict my amp is powerfull enough in terms of watts but the amp isnt powerfull enough to hit the mids or lows and it took me about 20 mins to get used to the high frequency output but after a couple hours i do not feel like whats called "ear bleeding".



Thanks guys you have been awomse

picking a good speaker is less than half of the battle. tuning them is another story. If you do not have Audessy EQ to do it for you, then I highly recommend you tune it by either SPL or the why I enjoy it, by ear. These methods are to balance out the speakers range. There is no such thing as a perfect speaker that plays perfect balanced sound out of the box. Every speaker has tendencies, even the highly prized Bower and Wilkin's Diamond series. Room placement is also important, but not all of us are so lucky to get a decision(space requirements). Something to also consider if you are playing loud music is bi amping them. This is something that is controversial among many audiophiles...however, if you are going to be listening to loud music and or movies, it is definitely something to consider if: Your amp delivers 100 or less than 100 watts per channel at 8 ohms. Your amp happens to also be capable of bi-amping. And 3, should your listening requirements need you to be boosting 200 watts per tower(I would ;-) ). Also considering the 83s can handle 200 continuous power anyways.

Like I said tuning a speaker is very important. A speaker out of box should sound ok, but after it has been tuned with your amp and your placement and room configuration, they will sound a whole lot better. Any half decent amp can have a decent spl curve. Just spend some time tuning it, there's a lot of articles on it including the directions that came with your receiver. There are a lot of amps to choose from for any price range should you decide you need a new one. Most of them are pretty good now a days for the average person, with a few that standout by bringing reliability, good pricing and most importantly good sound (video too).
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Tuning them is the most important step! did I mention that yet?

Bi wiring just adds more gauge current and doesn't add any wattage increase, so i dont think that will help me, im using high performance cable's anyway.
I don't like touching any equalization settings like bass and treble, i like the speaker putting out what it can and should be doing.

Bi wiring does nothing so you are correct there. But by bi-amping I was referring to both bi-wiring and bi-amping by using both at the same time. Instead of one amp per speaker, you use two amps per speaker to give about double the boost in wattage. But hey if you are planning to get a receiver capable of delivering 150w/channel, then you don't really need to worry about it. Tuning the speaker doesn't actually mean changing treble and bass settings. Those settings are more for prefference after you have tuned your speakers. I find on average for me personally that I boost up the bass 2 db. Tuning means you are removing "peaks and valleys" in the frequency range to help smooth out the sound balance. I assure you Auddesy EQ is essential for anyone who just invested 800+ in tower speakers ;)

and just for some food for thought, don't go overboard and get 10 gauge wire, I personally use 14, and sometimes 12 for long cable runs. Theres been numerous amounts of tests to show how cable gauge makes almost no difference after about 14 - 16 gauge

http://www.audioholics.com/education...ng-vs-biwiring


Frequency tendencies are a natural thing when you have a frequency source in an enclosed area. A speaker responds differently when you put it in a room of a certain size, and it will change that tendency if you enlarge or decrease the room size. The only way to avoid these resonant frequencies that affect the sound in a room is to use sound correction. If you would like to see an example of why it's needed, play some frequency tests that sweep the frequency range and you will notice certain frequencies are much louder than others, especially ones that are in the bass range.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_room_correction

When you bi-amp though your only separating the woofers from the tweeters, and since the tweeters are already so efficient probably using no more than 10-20 watts, what effect will this have ? im guessing not very much if anything but thats just my opinion.
I do have a second marantz amp but no pre outs on the sony only some on the marantz.

It all depends on your speaker array and on how it is split up. Since you do have a 2 way setup it doesnt really matter since you are right, it doesn't use more than about 15 watts anyways. The A9s have 2 woofers and 1 tweeter for is high end, and 3 woofers for its low end. For you you're probably right as it wouldn't add much of anything except an unfortunate 15 more watts to your bass haha. It all depends on how many speakers you have and all they are internally wired. no pre outs, then don't waste your time. The sony will be fine until your upgrade. ;)

Yep thought so :), just got to figure out what receiver hmm, now which one of the smilies shows thinking ? lol.

I hooked up my marantz 80 watt amp and it added a little more bass and is a little warmer so i have seen what effects diff amps can provide.

Is it a good idea to use a equalizer ?, i generally don't like playing with base treble or advanced equalizers.

An equalizer is very similar to Audyssey EQ, but stereo equalizers are mechanical boards that help you control the frequency balance, and in a sense can change treble and bass, but that is not their sole intention or purpose. Is it a good idea to use an equalizer? Yes, if you are in a music only environment. No, to pretty much everything else. But like I said, if you want your speakers to sound anywhere near where they were intended from the factory, frequency correction is a must whether you listen to music or play movies(Audyssey EQ). And where are the pics? ;-p

Yea il get some pic's up this week, i just haven't got any satisfaction out of them but i assure myself from all the research that i have done that i have made a future investment.
Looking for amp in the future i have a guy that can get me wholesale on some rotel amps and iv heard good things with them and klipsch.
Judging from my marantz 80 watt amp (sr4320) it provides a totally different and better sound yet the sony has more in terms of watts, so im just trying to get my head around this factor.
The marantz has ok sound but both amps don't provide anywhere near the low levels of sub frequency's i was wanting so im thinking when it starts to hit the lower frequency's and the impedience drops that there is not enough stable power being supplied.
Like there's enough watts but to provide the sharp heavy and precise sounds that it can it needs a bigger and faster current to be able to do that, is there any graphs on speaker impedience and watt usage ??.

This is helping me atm
http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb0.../impedence.htm
best description iv found so far good read.

Speaker resistance to wattage use is strictly limited to each speaker. It's the speaker foorprint so to speak, so if you are going to find one, it would have to be from that exact speaker. If there's one out there it would likely be on the AVR forums, other than that it's highly unlikely you would find it in general. And to be honest it wouldn't be very helpful anyways.

Different amps have different circuitry that will cause the output signal to vary slightly. Don't forget that tower speakers are typically not going to bring chest thumping or floor shaking bass. It should be good, but you will not get the bass power equivalent of that provided by a decent sub. Speaker drop off should be around 35-40 Hz. Below that is where all the thumping action takes place and this is what gives the bass "the feel." 80 watts is barely enough to get everything moving with a tower such as yours, you really should be giving it at least 130 watt or more for stable power delivery. In general the bass drop off is part of the speaker design, it's natural. You can help eliminate it by using the sound processors internal equalizer which can be found on any half decent receiver. On onkyo receivers, we get about 10 ranges we can play with. When I first got my towers I boosted up a lot of the bass frequencies to see how my towers would respond. Since the woofer section was actually intended to act as subwoofer it actually played quite well together. Your towers are more focused to provide mid ranged sound, and to let a subwoofer play all the frequencies below 50 hz. To be honest, you might want to look into getting a klipsch sub, their 12D subwoofer went on sale at the egg for 300 dollars with free shipping which is a complete steal, wish I had a deal like that when I was in the market.

Lets just say im not getting much better quality of that of my old speakers, the mid frequency is not clear (guitar, piano, violin,) they are all just average sounding atm.
The woofers barley move and with three 8 inch woofers i think it would take a little bit more clean and fast power to move them strong and sharp enough to produce a better mid and low frequency response.
All that said the tweeters are easy driven and they seem to be the factor in what makes a speaker set harsh warm or perfect.

EDIT
Here's a example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgVPH...eature=related
This guy has a pair of 82's which are probably easier to drive but on this song he can get his drivers to go nuts moving the driver to create heavy bass, with me on that song with either amp myn hardly move on full volume and with extended bass frequency at +10
Just a thought.

Another thing my sony amp has two sub pre outs, couldn't i use one for a amp and get a rca splitter to connect the sub pre out to a power amp for when i get a power amp. That way i would have a pre amp i could use ??

It could have do to with a few things, nothing you cold really pin point without spending a lot of time trouble shooting and comparing.

The difference in driver amplitude is very important to what the source is, and by how much the person is boosting the lower frequencies. Don't let someone else' setup cloud your judgment to your system's performance You have a lot to look at as far as setup goes such as looking at receiver crossovers and checking to see if your towers are on full range or set to large. For reference you should set subwoofer crossover at about 50-60 and the sub takes over from there.

The pre outs are to be used with another amplifier. You can split them, but I would not. It would be much more difficult to tune the system unless the subs are identical. If you have some specific question I might have some better answers for you :)

Yea i tried the sub pre out and it doesn't work the same as a standard pre out so that takes that idea out, do you believe that if 80 watts could get to a certain SPL without distortion would 130 watts to the same SPL level give a better SQ ?

Technically yes it can, but as always results vary. And that ranges based on a lot of factors. Quality amp, decent cables, and you seem to have a good tower speaker already taken care of. In general, an amp that can drive more power can give better sound quality. I use the word can, because I don't know what products you are comparing so it's kind of a shoot in the dark.

I am learning more and more through the days, but i believe i have most of it pat down.
A lot of people and i mean a lot seem to believe that watts are watts and if a speaker can be powered to a acceptable volume level without distortion its enough and would not require a amp upgrade.
But to me of course this does not make sense to me after taking a closer look into the physics of how power works and came to a conclusion that those people were biased :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:s who can only afford cheap equipment (no offense xD).
So with the RF83/7 yes they are very efficient speakers but this is mostly only because of the horn loaded tweeters, these things use only about 15 watts if that of any kind of power.
As we all should know though most of the required power to drive a speaker is down below 200hz range and this is where a lot of the good bass sounds come from, bass guitar, drums, kick drum.
The RF83/7 are known to have a impedance drop of 2.8ohm at around the 200hz and under mark, but this isn't just because of the frequency its because it has to drive three 8" or two 10" at the same time and as you can imagine can be quite difficult because of how much air it has to push and how fast.
You can supply these speakers with low watts and get really loud levels but you will not get the full sound quality that the speakers can produce unless you supply high current and clean power so it can handle the impedance drops and be able to get a more powerful control over the woofers to produce better low frequency's

Said it like i had experienced it, but i am convinced by my research that my theory is correct and i will see in time when i get a beast PSU and prove myself right :), but i have read countless people upgrading their amps and the speaker quality would improve across the bass frequency always.
I know i promised pictures but my room is real crappy and would get such a hard time because of it lol.

What you said sounds pretty good to me, except a teeny tiny part. You can drive any amount of wattage and it will all sound about the same sound pressure wise (sound level). Sound quality comes from like what you said, quality power and amplification which comes from a good amp. Supplying 150 watts of power can sound different on many different amps based on their quality. Just like a computer power supply, you can get a psu that gives 500 watts of power for 30 dollars, or you can spend 130 dollars. The difference is in the quality of power. Though we dont actually listen to the signal of our power supplies, if we did there would be a big difference in distortion levels based on the filtration of the system power. Relating that to speaker terms, better quality amps and circuits give a better quality sound. =)

I'll show you mine as well, I'd like to take a pic for fun. Though my area is kinda dirty too..tv area that is.

Yea the RMS watts has been a confusing factor with sound producing hardware, most of the mass market audio manufacturers do not build high current amps because they are more expensive to build and they prefer to simply produce amps that can pass the FTC rule.
Watts is really only for SPL now days as most amps can produce enough power to make any speaker today loud enough without distortion, its quality of power that a lot of people seem to be misguided by.
Current, transition change between power levels, distortion, even the preamp is important because they all control the beginning of the signal and how the sound comes out.

:) slap me on the face, some photo's will be nice i guess if you show me yours il show you mine tehe :P.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [DANGERDAN]

Yea the RMS watts has been a confusing factor with sound producing hardware, most of the mass market audio manufacturers do not build high current amps because they are more expensive to build and they prefer to simply produce amps that can pass the FTC rule.
Watts is really only for SPL now days as most amps can produce enough power to make any speaker today loud enough without distortion, its quality of power that a lot of people seem to be misguided by.
Current, transition change between power levels, distortion, even the preamp is important because they all control the beginning of the signal and how the sound comes out.

:) slap me on the face, some photo's will be nice i guess if you show me yours il show you mine tehe :P.

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Yes, I miss the way they did it in the old days. My so called low watt Harmon Kardon 730 and Harmon Kardon 245 have the same volume level or SPL as most receivers rated 3 times more powerful:rolleyes:

Don't forget the role source material plays as well!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

I still use turn tables with fairly good Shure "needles".

More research for me and i found a really good story over from the klipsch forums, one guy was having a problem with getting any bass from his khorn monster speakers with his dual mono tube amps.
After his efforts of ruling out a room issues and things like phase connection he decided to get a class A amp and he retrieved his ground thumping bass like that, he came to the conclusion that the amp was designed for efficient or more respectively (loud) speakers.
The amp was drowning out the LF signal with more HF, either because of a power issue (impedance) or because of the design of the amp itself and just the sound it makes.
But all and all Amps do make a difference and with a little test myself i am now more convinced than ever of his theory.

By running a tone generator i played a 200hz signal and placed one amp to the left speaker and another to the right giving me the option to switch the signal between amps from a click of a button.
After playing the signal and adjusting the SPL of each speaker to a relatively identical sound levels for both speakers i left the sound sensitivity and played a song from my list, i found that with the sony amp i could hear all singing voices come through nice and loud but the marantz amp was like a whisper in the night.

So from that i found the sony was drowning out the sub sounds because of the HF output (2khz^), giving me the possibility to raise the SPL signal on the marantz and get that better LF sound.

Sorry if this gets annoying but i do enjoy posting my finds, there is a question in this however.
I was using 3.5m analog jack (asus D2X ultra) for the marantz and hdmi (ATI 5870) digital for the sony, what kind of sound effect if there is one does these two have in difference, :) thanks fellas.

The audio jack is an analog signal, the hdmi is digital. They could but should not sound different, though you may be able to get better bit rates using digital audio. Unless you are playing games, the sound card is pretty much obsolete, i ditched mine last year, forever. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [DANGERDAN]

More research for me and i found a really good story over from the klipsch forums, one guy was having a problem with getting any bass from his khorn monster speakers with his dual mono tube amps.
After his efforts of ruling out a room issues and things like phase connection he decided to get a class A amp and he retrieved his ground thumping bass like that, he came to the conclusion that the amp was designed for efficient or more respectively (loud) speakers.
The amp was drowning out the LF signal with more HF, either because of a power issue (impedance) or because of the design of the amp itself and just the sound it makes.
But all and all Amps do make a difference and with a little test myself i am now more convinced than ever of his theory.

By running a tone generator i played a 200hz signal and placed one amp to the left speaker and another to the right giving me the option to switch the signal between amps from a click of a button.
After playing the signal and adjusting the SPL of each speaker to a relatively identical sound levels for both speakers i left the sound sensitivity and played a song from my list, i found that with the sony amp i could hear all singing voices come through nice and loud but the marantz amp was like a whisper in the night.

So from that i found the sony was drowning out the sub sounds because of the HF output (2khz^), giving me the possibility to raise the SPL signal on the marantz and get that better LF sound.

Sorry if this gets annoying but i do enjoy posting my finds, there is a question in this however.
I was using 3.5m analog jack (asus D2X ultra) for the marantz and hdmi (ATI 5870) digital for the sony, what kind of sound effect if there is one does these two have in difference, :) thanks fellas.

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Not annoying and very interesting IMHO! HDMI vs Analog is very much Source and System dependent. Most younger folks have gotten use to SPL. Many are shocked when they are introduced to a FULL old school system. Ask a believer like Raptor-22?

The real tests are done at about voice level and not at a Night Club's SPL, though that is important as well. Much more of the Music (wider frequency, Imaging/Presence and etc....) can be heard. I just never really liked anything made by Sony for the Mainstream. Sony invented the wattage lie:down: and they're given credit for the Loud vs Quality according to musicians and audiophiles (thats real audiophiles and not Audiophools!).

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/14...DAD_2496_24192

I got into it with Audiophile wanna-be's talking about Hi-Fi from CD Audio and LMMFAO! A good Mid ranged Play Back System with Better Source Material will kick the s#it out of a High-end sytem with CD Audio:rolleyes: Of course Hi-Fi with Hi-Fi source material kicks the most @$$!:up:

yea sony are like that, but not only with the watts they do it with things like with their speakers and their hugee Frequency Response 35-50,000 Hz .
Using marketing gimmicks like these are what make sony just that little bit more err whats the word without swearing lol.

Thanks guys awesome peeps ily ily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [DANGERDAN]

yea sony are like that, but not only with the watts they do it with things like with their speakers and their hugee Frequency Response 35-50,000 Hz .
Using marketing gimmicks like these are what make sony just that little bit more err whats the word without swearing lol.

Thanks guys awesome peeps ily ily.

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:yepp: QFT! and you're welcome!

Every time I try to start a Project, my House, Wife or Daughter cause a Delay. I finally broke down and bought an Outside Antenna. Killed Cable thinking I'd get Direct TV. Speaking of "Fibbers" like Sony, Comcast has them beat:rolleyes: