BioWare: Too many good computer games out there

Source: http://www.fudzilla.com/

Quote:

---

BioWare's co-founder Ray Muzyka has been moaning that there are too many games on the market these days.

Muzyka said that the worst part about growing up is that you inevitably will have less time to play videogames. He said that he had to play everything just to stay current with what the videogame industry is producing.

He said that it was bad that the industry is so good. "There's too many games released today," Muzyka replied. "It's very, very busy, it makes it very hard as a player to keep up."

He has to play Bioware games, competitor's games, play other relevant games, and play the handful of games we just really want to play more of and finish," he continued. "I try and play two-or three hours a night, but that's hard and it's not enough."

It was not as if they were being flooded with mediocre games either. Most of them are really good and that is even before you start looking at them on their online versions.

---

:rolleyes:
/facepalm
Which recent games are really so awesome, exactly?..

i only have 3 games i play often, this guy must have a fetish for pc gaming...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zalbard

Source: http://www.fudzilla.com/

:rolleyes:
/facepalm
Which recent games are really so awesome, exactly?..

---

ood doesn't mean great ;)

the amount of extremely crappy POS games is smaller than it was 5 years ago, while there aren't many grea titles almost everything released by big publishers can be called decent...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zalbard

Which recent games are really so awesome, exactly?..

---

Heaps of them. You just need to lower your standards to the level required by a publisher to be considered good (ie. half-baked recycled junk).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by randomizer

Heaps of them. You just need to lower your standards to the level required by a publisher to be considered good (ie. half-baked recycled junk).

---

LOL :rofl:

The amount of "bad" games correlates positively with the possibilities for teenagers to give their 'well-founded' opinion to a mass-public. It also correlates positively with the amount of routes to free content through piracy.

This meaning,

The idea that a specific game is bad is fueled by a vast majority of young people giving un-founded criticism. Add this with the fact that negative aspects of something are more likely to be talked about and you have a situation where a bunch of youngsters are cracking down a game based on hardly anything.

Also, with piracy becoming mainstream it's a lot easier to have free content. Research has shown you're more likely to see something as good/positive the more you had to do to reach the goal. Having to work to be able to pay for a game you bought in the store equals effort (work, pay, go to store, etc...). Downloading something from the internet is almost no effort.

Most of the games are good enough to enjoy yourself for a couple of hours.

The console ports ARE NOT GOOD. DX9.0 Black Ops? C'mon people...

By this point, I'm not really sure I care what Bioware does/says.

Mass Effect 3 is probably going to be a third-person shooter with dialogues. Dragon Age II looks more and more like a hack n' slash version of Mass Effect with swords instead of guns. Good luck with that...

And this just proves, that they are really going crazy.

Well I think all Valve games, and BC2. But doesn't seem so many to me.
And shouldn't be a motivation having good games around to make you be more competitive and create a better one? :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mechromancer

The console ports ARE NOT GOOD. DX9.0 Black Ops? C'mon people...

---

Sales say otherwise and that's all that matters in the end to a publisher. PC snobs saying a game is crap when it's selling hundreds of millions of copies doesn't change that fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Sales say otherwise and that's all that matters in the end to a publisher. PC snobs saying a game is crap when it's selling hundreds of millions of copies doesn't change that fact.

---

Just because you sell millions doesn't automatically implies its good...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Sales say otherwise and that's all that matters in the end to a publisher. PC snobs saying a game is crap when it's selling hundreds of millions of copies doesn't change that fact.

---

Sales? Give me a break... you can't judge a game just on those numbers.

To me bringing a game out now with just DX9 has the foul stench of greed.

Sounds to me that:

1. He is bad at his job
2. He doesn't like his job.

its a good problem to have, some price competitiveness would be even better especially since it seems like bioware (and others) is in the habit of releasing 1/2 to 3/4 of a game and DLC to finish them up

I agree with the guy. Now that I'm working, completing my thesis, taking care of an apartment and my pets, I have a lot less time than I used to to game. Maybe 2-3 nights a week do I get to play anything, and that amounts to maybe 5 hours a week. With that time I typically play l4d2, since my friends want to play together, and I hardly ever see them so i'd rather play that than a single player when we all have the time. Off hand, the other games I'd like to play but will never have the time for-

BC2
BF2
Batman AA
Riddick Dark Athena
Metro 2033
Dirt 2 or NSF

I know that to some of you guys, that isn't many games, but I literally don't have the time to get into them. I've loved the little experience I've had with each of them, but unless I neglect my girlfriend, apartment, and pets, I wont have time to actually play them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zalbard

Source: http://www.fudzilla.com/

:rolleyes:
/facepalm
Which recent games are really so awesome, exactly?..

---

they are awesome for those who start out the first time. Too many good games for newbies compared to older guys.
Though ut99 still favorite game for evahhh.:D

oh the ut99 vs. quake 3 debates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamervivek

they are awesome for those who start out the first time. Too many good games for newbies compared to older guys.
Though ut99 still favorite game for evahhh.:D

---

Hey, you forgot Marathon! Bungie once made quality games too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by massman

The amount of "bad" games correlates positively with the possibilities for teenagers to give their 'well-founded' opinion to a mass-public. It also correlates positively with the amount of routes to free content through piracy.

This meaning,

The idea that a specific game is bad is fueled by a vast majority of young people giving un-founded criticism. Add this with the fact that negative aspects of something are more likely to be talked about and you have a situation where a bunch of youngsters are cracking down a game based on hardly anything.

Also, with piracy becoming mainstream it's a lot easier to have free content. Research has shown you're more likely to see something as good/positive the more you had to do to reach the goal. Having to work to be able to pay for a game you bought in the store equals effort (work, pay, go to store, etc...). Downloading something from the internet is almost no effort.

Most of the games are good enough to enjoy yourself for a couple of hours.

---

Whilst I agree with you regarding the ease at which a game is procured correlates with the perceived value or lack of for any particular game. A game being good enough for a couple of hours enjoyment shouldn't cost $60/£35. Most games these day are direct console ports with little more than a few hours game play and almost no depth to them. At those prices I don't feel that they are value for money at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by massman

Also, with piracy becoming mainstream it's a lot easier to have free content. Research has shown you're more likely to see something as good/positive the more you had to do to reach the goal. Having to work to be able to pay for a game you bought in the store equals effort (work, pay, go to store, etc...). Downloading something from the internet is almost no effort.

Most of the games are good enough to enjoy yourself for a couple of hours.

---

I don't think that's a universal feeling. I know that I enjoy games less when I buy them versus playing someone else's copy. I used to do a lot of the latter when I was a penniless kid. Now that I work I just buy my own outright. I feel like there's a lot more pressure when there's $50 at stake, that if I don't enjoy the game then I've made a terrible mistake. Back in the old days, it was instead just a matter of if I didn't enjoy it I'd go play something else. The worry of having wasted so much money is a serious damper I have to contend with. I've got a whole stack of games I've bought and never really played. Many of those are even A-list titles.

There are good games but there aren't many trully awesome games. I mean the ones where you say wow to every aspect of the game.

Hmmmm well to be honest the only games I have been enjoying recently have been Bioware games haha. Mass Effect 1 and 2 are truly great games and I have been playing lots of them recently, next on the list is to dive more into dragon age at it seems to have some promise. there is a decent amount of good games for RPG, racing and an ok amount of RTS ( would love to see another supreme commander that would be a worthy successor not SupCom 2 garbage)

what most people are seeing as crappy games however is in the FPS market which gets the most releases and has had garbage games of late. like really when was the last good and fresh FPS to come out? TBH the last time we had good FPS games come out was when CPD4 and Crysis came out. they were something new made on new engines and offered different feels. now FPS games are still made using the same engines and same feel, kinda old after 3 years. look at COD for example, I could go out and spend $60 on Black Ops or I could boot up COD4 and play the SAME GAME that I already own 3 copy's of (COD4 CODWAW MW2) the rest of gaming seems to be moving along normally, the rest of FPS has COD syndrome, every FPS is trying to be or beat COD and COD is trying to stay the same as COD...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dahmer

Sales? Give me a break... you can't judge a game just on those numbers.

---

In the cold harsh light of reality, yes you can. If a game sells millions of copies, it's clearly catering to what people want in a game. The developers are tapping the "right" market and doing their jobs well.

Same in pop music. If you tick the boxes of the majority, it is a success. Both in demographic and financial terms.

For anything to change, tell millions of people to expect more & better. :confused:

Doesn't mean I think it's *right*... but it is *true*

i believe the exact opposite is true.
i have no problem not playing many games out there today, and if i do, chances are they only last 5-10 hours (or are online play which is a category im not referring too)

back in the days of PS1 there were a slew of great RPGs and most people only touched 10% of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Particle

I don't think that's a universal feeling. I know that I enjoy games less when I buy them versus playing someone else's copy. I used to do a lot of the latter when I was a penniless kid. Now that I work I just buy my own outright. I feel like there's a lot more pressure when there's $50 at stake, that if I don't enjoy the game then I've made a terrible mistake. Back in the old days, it was instead just a matter of if I didn't enjoy it I'd go play something else. The worry of having wasted so much money is a serious damper I have to contend with. I've got a whole stack of games I've bought and never really played. Many of those are even A-list titles.

---

It's not entirely what I meant to say.

The idea is that if you pay money for a bad game there's a congitive dissonance: 'I spend money' and 'this game is bad'. To reduce the dissonance, you force yourself to believe the game wasn't that bad after all (!= "it was great"). In order to do that, you try to find the positive aspects of the game and are more balanced in your discussions about the game. It doesn't mean you liked the game more.

It's the same with people who will try to defend the hardware they bought as being the best choice simply because they don't want to face the fact that there was a better choice.

Because there's an easy access to games to be downloaded, there is no cognitive dissonance. As there's no justification required, they can just be as negative as possible about it.

I absolutely despise "modern video gaming", with short and shallow games directed towards easy mainstream appeal (i.e. the console effect) and the concept of DLC.

I feel for the poor guy. He has to play all those games all the time. What a :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty job! We should all be thankful for what we have. I mean think about it we could've ended up like this loser!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SamHughe

I feel for the poor guy. He has to play all those games all the time. What a :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty job! We should all be thankful for what we have. I mean think about it we could've ended up like this loser!

---

right. He was talking about how there are too many good games and that as you get older you have less time to play them. Nothing to do with hating his job and that all games he plays are rubbish.

I think everyone must have just seen the single word "moaning" by the articles editor (fud) and took an emotive response.:shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DeltZ

I think everyone must have just seen the single word "moaning" by the articles editor (fud) and took an emotive response.:shrug:

---

I think everyone just likes to whine and moan about video games. If I felt the same way a lot of the people on this forum do about the game industry I'd find a new hobby.

Could someone point me to "the part where this is suppose to be a news"?! :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K404

In the cold harsh light of reality, yes you can. If a game sells millions of copies, it's clearly catering to what people want in a game. The developers are tapping the "right" market and doing their jobs well.

---

Exactly. Whether or not a game is good is completely subjective. If millions of people think it is then it is. A few others looking down their noses at it doesn't change that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Sales say otherwise and that's all that matters in the end to a publisher. PC snobs saying a game is crap when it's selling hundreds of millions of copies doesn't change that fact.

---

Using the very same logic, one might be able to argue that Justin Bieber is a talented musician. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iddqd

Using the very same logic, one might be able to argue that Justin Bieber is a talented musician. :D

---

There can be no "definition" of a "good" game. However, if someone insists on a definition, it can only be how much people like it and how many copies it has sold; because everything else would be completely subjective.

You can't say "the best game is the one that takes the world from under your feet the most" or something like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hurrdurr

There can be no "definition" of a "good" game.

---

warm...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hurrdurr

However, if someone insists on a definition, it can only be how much people like it and how many copies it has sold;

---

getting colder...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hurrdurr

because everything else would be completely subjective.

---

HOT HOT HOT HOT HOT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hurrdurr

You can't say "the best game is the one that takes the world from under your feet the most" or something like that.

---

getting colder again

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iddqd

Using the very same logic, one might be able to argue that Justin Bieber is a talented musician. :D

---

And that the ipad is awesome.

marketing dictates sales,
user reviews dictates quality,
imho

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by K404

In the cold harsh light of reality, yes you can. If a game sells millions of copies, it's clearly catering to what people want in a game. The developers are tapping the "right" market and doing their jobs well.

Same in pop music. If you tick the boxes of the majority, it is a success. Both in demographic and financial terms.

For anything to change, tell millions of people to expect more & better. :confused:

Doesn't mean I think it's *right*... but it is *true*

---

I guess what you mean is that Coke is a much better drink than a 20 yo Scotch or than a good Bourbon.

Brainless games for brainless people, MW2 for example.
You can't compare MW2 :banana::banana::banana::banana:ty story (and graphics) to Metro 2033 or Call of Pripyat, to name just a pair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hurrdurr

I absolutely despise "modern video gaming", with short and shallow games directed towards easy mainstream appeal (i.e. the console effect) and the concept of DLC.

---

This isn't the "console effect" this is just where games are heading. As someone that has owned consoles since being a kid, and until rather recently also played PC games, all platforms have the same problem.

The blame can be placed entirely on hardware makers, people who love graphics, and people who want games that can show off high end systems. Those are the reasons games suck today.

As a result making games is extremely expensive. So unless it's going to sell a ton of copies, it's not worth the effort. And once that initial investment is made to develop things it makes sense to milk those assets as long as possible to recoup the most amount of money.

If you took a risk and made a game that was new, deep, and wouldn't sell gangbusters you'd be a moron. And so would anybody who would give you money for that buisness.

As a result there are "good games", and they haven't been dumbed down, but don't expect any sort of ground breaking GFX or other tricks because there isn't the money behind it.

You can sell a game that isn't made for the mainstream, but if you don't want to lose a ton of cash on it you aren't going to have any sort of visuals, physics, great sound, behind it, that's where the $$$ is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crash5s

The blame can be placed entirely on hardware makers, people who love graphics, and people who want games that can show off high end systems. Those are the reasons games suck today.

---

you do know what forum this is...right?
hardware is at a certain point, software should be designed to use the hardware that we have.

since computers have existed, the limit has been hardware.
we could always program things to use the hardware, we wanted more/faster memory,hdd,Hz, we could always find a use for more.

within the last couple of years that seems to have stopped..
sure there are exceptions in research fields and such, but as far as it applies to us it has stopped. hardware is now beyond what software demands, the blame must be put on the programmers who won't make use of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by massman

It's not entirely what I meant to say.

The idea is that if you pay money for a bad game there's a congitive dissonance: 'I spend money' and 'this game is bad'. To reduce the dissonance, you force yourself to believe the game wasn't that bad after all (!= "it was great"). In order to do that, you try to find the positive aspects of the game and are more balanced in your discussions about the game. It doesn't mean you liked the game more.

It's the same with people who will try to defend the hardware they bought as being the best choice simply because they don't want to face the fact that there was a better choice.

Because there's an easy access to games to be downloaded, there is no cognitive dissonance. As there's no justification required, they can just be as negative as possible about it.

---

i dont see that as valid, if a game is bad its bad there are vary few times that i can remember that paying for something made me feel better about it being bad; if anything if i buy a bad a game im pissed off and trudge through the game but if i acquire a game for free or cheap (borrowed, steam, frys bin,"downloaded") then i dont get pissed and will just not finish it or go oh well it was worth $5 or whatever it was. but the topic is not about this and piracy is not that prevalent in the US for people who would buy the games but instead pirate so it dose not really have an affect on the market.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crash5s

This isn't the "console effect" this is just where games are heading. As someone that has owned consoles since being a kid, and until rather recently also played PC games, all platforms have the same problem.

The blame can be placed entirely on hardware makers, people who love graphics, and people who want games that can show off high end systems. Those are the reasons games suck today.

As a result making games is extremely expensive. So unless it's going to sell a ton of copies, it's not worth the effort. And once that initial investment is made to develop things it makes sense to milk those assets as long as possible to recoup the most amount of money.

If you took a risk and made a game that was new, deep, and wouldn't sell gangbusters you'd be a moron. And so would anybody who would give you money for that buisness.

As a result there are "good games", and they haven't been dumbed down, but don't expect any sort of ground breaking GFX or other tricks because there isn't the money behind it.

You can sell a game that isn't made for the mainstream, but if you don't want to lose a ton of cash on it you aren't going to have any sort of visuals, physics, great sound, behind it, that's where the $$$ is.

---

it dose not cost more to make a standard HD quality texture/model for the environment or characters than it dose to make a sub HD console one if they are in 3d and while effects do cost money since they take time its not that much time if u have a proper SDK/engine to work from. so if anything UT3 and the consoles that have no power or ram and came out rather weak on the graphics and memory side (and the 360 underpowered in all things and still on dvds) are holding it back since to make a game work on that and look good multiplatform it would take alot more work since u have to lower the quality of the textures to work in a 560 mesh instead of even the basic 720 lvl of HD. and the graphics are mostly from art direction u dont need photo or hyper realism to make it look good if anything those cost the most but make it look worse than most other art styles.

and there were cheap to normal costing games that looked and were good from the last few years, bioshock, boarderlands, fallouts, batman AA, trine, torchlight, WOG, dragon age, mafia2, brutal legend, maybe bc2 sicne it was not the cost of the previous shooters at that lvl. and there was a bunch of expensive bad games like MW2, COD:BO, dirt2, prince of persia, HAWX2 (or anything ubi except AC), fable2/3.

edit look at last weeks soap box on g4 its exactly what i was thinking http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/70...s-Soapbox.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by El Maño

I guess what you mean is that Coke is a much better drink than a 20 yo Scotch or than a good Bourbon.

---

For the respective companies... yes.

Niche market will be more satisfying, but you'll be a smaller company with smaller profits.

Production costs of Bourbon, Single Malt etc are lunatic multiples of that of Coke. Then theres the niche market you sell to, before you even take age restrictions and dry states into account.

From a purely financial point of view, whiskey is lunacy :)

Aston Martin or Pagoni Vs... hmmmmmmm Smart?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hurrdurr

oh the ut99 vs. quake 3 debates.

---

Too old, BF 1942 FTW!

Can't agree with him - most of the current game are just the 20.000nd shooter or 30.000nd racing game...there is not so much new in there...prefer to go for good indie-games currently. They offer a lot more fun to me...

I've been enjoying Divinity 2 DKS recently. I found New Vegas to be fun. I've been hearing good things about Two Worlds 2. I liked Civ V (Civ IV at launch is not the Civ IV that we know today). Thats just games that have been released in the past couple of months. To say that there is nothing but crap out there you must have a pretty closed mind or just that typical elitist attitude which isn't exactly uncommon here..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BababooeyHTJ

I've been enjoying Divinity 2 DKS recently. I found New Vegas to be fun. I've been hearing good things about Two Worlds 2. I liked Civ V (Civ IV at launch is not the Civ IV that we know today). Thats just games that have been released in the past couple of months. To say that there is nothing but crap out there you must have a pretty closed mind or just that typical elitist attitude which isn't exactly uncommon here..

---

+1 QFT!

Some of this guys talk as if they have an "age crisis"... :) The truth is (a possible truth) - they got older (or "old") and can't have the same satisfaction as they did when younger (which doesn't necessarily mean - 12 years old, your still young even at 20 - others feel the same even at 40+...). So no, the games or not the problem... YOU GUYS ARE! :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Sales say otherwise and that's all that matters in the end to a publisher. PC snobs saying a game is crap when it's selling hundreds of millions of copies doesn't change that fact.

---

i bought it and regret it what does it makes of your statistic?

diablo 3 and portal 2 is all i care for now on

You know, in some ways he's correct... Just people aren't looking at this correctly.

PC games, unlike console games, KEEP their community of players for quite awhile. A console shooter, for example, becomes practically a ghost town as soon as "the next big thing" comes around. PC titles, on the other hand, have a more faithful community. The community create new maps, mods, and even upgrade the graphics for the games they love. I mean, look how many dedicated players are still on CS 1.6/CS:S/BF2/BF2141/Quake 3/UT99!

Looking at it in this light, there's a LOT of good games on the PC.

actually I would argue, we have exceptionally few Good games.

And then there are the games I like to call ":banana::banana::banana::banana: storms" which tend to include two or more of the following:
1) DRM
2) Bad Game play
3) Poor Multiplier
4) Bad interfaces
5) Side channel installations
6) Breaking already working programs that are in no way connected to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DilTech

You know, in some ways he's correct... Just people aren't looking at this correctly.

PC games, unlike console games, KEEP their community of players for quite awhile. A console shooter, for example, becomes practically a ghost town as soon as "the next big thing" comes around. PC titles, on the other hand, have a more faithful community. The community create new maps, mods, and even upgrade the graphics for the games they love. I mean, look how many dedicated players are still on CS 1.6/CS:S/BF2/BF2141/Quake 3/UT99!

Looking at it in this light, there's a LOT of good games on the PC.

---

You're wrong regarding the bolded text, mainly for two reasons:

1.Shooters as in FPS come from PC arsenal... even the famous Halo which does have his own community (dedicated fans) is not a true console shooter (pretty common to any PC shooter), yet Gears of War is another story.

- check Halo, MW2, GW... and see if it's a ghost town... :shakes:

2.If we're talking about consoles - their hardcore community is based on Arcades fans like Tekken, StreetFigther, Mortal Kombat, KoF, Twisted Metal, Vigilante and so on...

The moving along to next thing part is just as valid for consoles as it is for PC's. Same dedication for PC titles can be valid for consoles as well... I still have fun playing Tekken or Vigilante with friends, yet we were also hardcore Quake 2, UT, CS 1.6, SC, AoE 2 players but that doesn't seem fun anymore.

What you did with your post has name and it's called: PREJUDICE! - everybody's doing it this days...

All this console bashing is ridiculous. There are so many excellent console games out there that I wish would be ported to PC..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by massman

It's not entirely what I meant to say.

The idea is that if you pay money for a bad game there's a congitive dissonance: 'I spend money' and 'this game is bad'. To reduce the dissonance, you force yourself to believe the game wasn't that bad after all (!= "it was great"). In order to do that, you try to find the positive aspects of the game and are more balanced in your discussions about the game. It doesn't mean you liked the game more.

It's the same with people who will try to defend the hardware they bought as being the best choice simply because they don't want to face the fact that there was a better choice.

Because there's an easy access to games to be downloaded, there is no cognitive dissonance. As there's no justification required, they can just be as negative as possible about it.

---

You imply the opposite you say. Lets dissect your position:

Quote:

---

a) I spend money
b) This game is bad
c) You force yourself to believe the game wasn't that bad after all

---

So, instead of:
a) I spend money
b) This game is crap
c) I'm an idiot (I've been screwed..whatever)

You try to feel better with yourself because I spend money and, as such, the game needs is better.

All this together means exactly the opposite: when somebody pays for a game he will not be objective because he has to justify the spending. If, on the other hand, you try a game for free, there is no pressure inside you nor any need to justify your acquisition...and as such you will be able to make a more free critique.

With that said, there are people who do not care wether they paid or not when making a critique. I buy all the games I do play yet I'm not always satisfied with them. Bioshock, for example: I read so many good reviews about it, so many good things that I thought It would be awesome...and it wasn't. Controls were sluggish (being an FPS that's not acceptable) and I could never even end it. I swear I felt so bad about such a waste of money I started pirating all the games I wanted so to be sure I wanted them (and then I bought them). Nowadays I just don't hurry that much and I let others be the "lab rats" so I can enjoy the games fully without getting so pissed about a spending not working at all (this means that If I have to buy a game more than a year later of its publishin so that I can enjoy it nearly 100%...so be it. Like Stalker, at the beginning it was so bugged you couldn't bear it...).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carfax

All this console bashing is ridiculous. There are so many excellent console games out there that I wish would be ported to PC..

---

that's another reason to dislike consoles...
these excellent games, which i agree exist, should be ported to PC.
and not a bad port either, put some effort into it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Sales say otherwise and that's all that matters in the end to a publisher. PC snobs saying a game is crap when it's selling hundreds of millions of copies doesn't change that fact.

---

Since when has any computer/video game in history ever sold 100 million copies?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aerwidh

Since when has any computer/video game in history ever sold 100 million copies?

---

Microsoft Excel 97 contained a hidden flight simulator.
Microsoft Word contained a hidden pinball game


and let us not forget the biggest selling game of all time Hover! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hover!

Microsoft sold 316 Million copies of Hover!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XSAlliN

You're wrong regarding the bolded text, mainly for two reasons:

1.Shooters as in FPS come from PC arsenal... even the famous Halo which does have his own community (dedicated fans) is not a true console shooter (pretty common to any PC shooter), yet Gears of War is another story.

- check Halo, MW2, GW... and see if it's a ghost town... :shakes:

2.If we're talking about consoles - their hardcore community is based on Arcades fans like Tekken, StreetFigther, Mortal Kombat, KoF, Twisted Metal, Vigilante and so on...

The moving along to next thing part is just as valid for consoles as it is for PC's. Same dedication for PC titles can be valid for consoles as well... I still have fun playing Tekken or Vigilante with friends, yet we were also hardcore Quake 2, UT, CS 1.6, SC, AoE 2 players but that doesn't seem fun anymore.

What you did with your post has name and it's called: PREJUDICE! - everybody's doing it this days...

---

You do realize I'm a console gamer as well as a PC gamer right? I have a X360, PS3, and a Wii right along with my gaming rig all hooked to the same TV... I'm not prejudice. In fact, one of my jobs is as a remote writer for MLG, which ironically enough is for tekken. I'm actually a HUGE fan of tekken, and a moderator at the biggest tekken site on the net as well. So yeah, you CLEARLY read that post wrong.

Also, there are exceptions to the ghost town rule, but they're rather few. For example, MW2 still has people playing because people are pissed that there's no quick scoping in black ops(well, there is, but it's a lot different) and are trying to make a stand against 3arc over it.

On the other hand, look at CS1.6.. STILL highly populated. Look at Quake 3, STILL heavily populated.... PC games live long lives, but most console titles get passed on when the next title shows up. Want proof? Go to any general gaming web forum and see how many people ask if they should trade in last month's hot game for this month's at gamestop. Ask the guy behind the counter at gamestop how many people traded in halo reach for black ops, you'll know what I mean.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DilTech

You do realize I'm a console gamer as well as a PC gamer right? I have a X360, PS3, and a Wii right along with my gaming rig all hooked to the same TV... I'm not prejudice. In fact, one of my jobs is as a remote writer for MLG, which ironically enough is for tekken. I'm actually a HUGE fan of tekken, and a moderator at the biggest tekken site on the net as well. So yeah, you CLEARLY read that post wrong.

Also, there are exceptions to the ghost town rule, but they're rather few. For example, MW2 still has people playing because people are pissed that there's no quick scoping in black ops(well, there is, but it's a lot different) and are trying to make a stand against 3arc over it.

On the other hand, look at CS1.6.. STILL highly populated. Look at Quake 3, STILL heavily populated.... PC games live long lives, but most console titles get passed on when the next title shows up. Want proof? Go to any general gaming web forum and see how many people ask if they should trade in last month's hot game for this month's at gamestop. Ask the guy behind the counter at gamestop how many people traded in halo reach for black ops, you'll know what I mean.

---

Well said !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by prava

You imply the opposite you say. Lets dissect your position:

So, instead of:
a) I spend money
b) This game is crap
c) I'm an idiot (I've been screwed..whatever)

You try to feel better with yourself because I spend money and, as such, the game needs is better.

All this together means exactly the opposite: when somebody pays for a game he will not be objective because he has to justify the spending. If, on the other hand, you try a game for free, there is no pressure inside you nor any need to justify your acquisition...and as such you will be able to make a more free critique.

---

I never said anything about objective or subjective criticism. I don't even know why you are dragging that into this thread. Hardly anyone is REALLY objective about a game. And please don't get me started about 'more free critique'. We all know what happened to 'more free critique' when manufacturers started sending out free review gear to so-called 'unbiased' review websites. Your stance on objective/subjective and how it's affected by not having to pay for it is highly debatable.

What I'm saying is that there are two factors playing causing the "most games are sht"-trend. One of the factors is teenagers not always being able to express their opinion in a well-balanced manner, causing extreme stances on a game ('total sht' or 'insanely good'). The other is piracy causing less cognitive dissonance as effort(downloading game) < effort(buying game).

The congitivie dissonance is causing people to justify the effort they put into playing the game (work, go to store, buy, play, continue to play, ...). One of the ways to do this is by trying to sum up the good things about a game ("well, it wasn't the worst I've played"). This positive aspect can then be shared in online discussion forums.

Cognitive dissonance also inhibits lieing, by the way. It doesn't allow you to justify your purchase to an extend that you will praise it to heaven.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DilTech

You do realize I'm a console gamer as well as a PC gamer right? I have a X360, PS3, and a Wii right along with my gaming rig all hooked to the same TV... I'm not prejudice. In fact, one of my jobs is as a remote writer for MLG, which ironically enough is for tekken. I'm actually a HUGE fan of tekken, and a moderator at the biggest tekken site on the net as well. So yeah, you CLEARLY read that post wrong.

Also, there are exceptions to the ghost town rule, but they're rather few. For example, MW2 still has people playing because people are pissed that there's no quick scoping in black ops(well, there is, but it's a lot different) and are trying to make a stand against 3arc over it.

On the other hand, look at CS1.6.. STILL highly populated. Look at Quake 3, STILL heavily populated.... PC games live long lives, but most console titles get passed on when the next title shows up. Want proof? Go to any general gaming web forum and see how many people ask if they should trade in last month's hot game for this month's at gamestop. Ask the guy behind the counter at gamestop how many people traded in halo reach for black ops, you'll know what I mean.

---

Well to be honest, you sure fulled me with the other post - based on what you're saying now, you should have been the one saying what I did...

Do you know who's playing those game?

CS 1.6 - played by some who found this game in a net club (for example), learned how to play it and this end-up being "the only game they play" and mostly played by kids with low budged systems, this being one of the best shooters it could run on their rig and lastly, played by those who invested a lot of time in this game, so much that it defines them. This are not hardcore PC gamers - but hardcore "CS 1.6" players (I've also been part of their community - played CS since the early betas, when CS was just a mod for half life -> till v1.6 ...).

Quake 2/3 and UT3 - are still popular cause there aren't many alternatives out there - they did released Quake 4 (you know?) but "WHAT THE F. IS THIS P. of S."!?" - was the main reaction of Quake 2/3 players... and can't blame them (use to be a hardcore Quake 2 player myself).

Quote:

---

I'm actually a HUGE fan of tekken, and a moderator at the biggest tekken site on the net as well

---

Yet, how come you're not aware of Tekken being the equivalent of Quake on PS?!

- Do you know that some bought PS3 mainly for this game?

...and let's not forget MK, S.F. and KoF.

Just out of curiosity - on console communities do you cast the shadow on PC gamers? Cause here, you did exactly the opposite...

=============

Not a hardcore player of any of those titles anymore - but also, didn't got blinded by PC vs Consoles war... This hate is present on many forums... I've seen many PC gamers with 2000$ - 3000$ rigs, who play mostly pirated games - and blame consoles cause gaming got more terrain under Consoles. Which is obviously - "not their fault for not supporting gaming market under PC" - yet, they afford to... and we also have a large group of PC users who simply don't afford spending money on games... It's also the Devs fault - more than 50% of it and mostly greed related... but the hate towards consoles it's mostly inappropriate... like that which comes from PC owners who think to high of themselves and PC games - even think they're intellectual for being capable of playing games on a PC (saying things like: "console users are so stupid they can't press more than 8 buttons"). :shakes:

too many good games?
you mean there are more games that are worth it to be played than we have time to spend on them?

i agree on that, but are they really good? idk...
and its a good thing, not a bad thing...

i was incredibly dissapointed with bioshock... what an aweful game... so yeah from their perspective all other games must look super awesome :p:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XSAlliN

Well to be honest, you sure fulled me with the other post - based on what you're saying now, you should have been the one saying what I did...

Do you know who's playing those game?

CS 1.6 - played by some who found this game in a net club (for example), learned how to play it and this end-up being "the only game they play" and mostly played by kids with low budged systems, this being one of the best shooters it could run on their rig and lastly, played by those who invested a lot of time in this game, so much that it defines them. This are not hardcore PC gamers - but hardcore "CS 1.6" players (I've also been part of their community - played CS since the early betas, when CS was just a mod for half life -> till v1.6 ...).

Quake 2/3 and UT3 - are still popular cause there aren't many alternatives out there - they did released Quake 4 (you know?) but "WHAT THE F. IS THIS P. of S."!?" - was the main reaction of Quake 2/3 players... and can't blame them (use to be a hardcore Quake 2 player myself).

---

I couldn't disagree more with your hasty generalization. Shooters haven't changed much since CS1.6 and Quake. Sure the player models have more detail: Skeletal animations have improved; lighting effects are getting prettier all the time. But these evolutionary changes don't merit purchasing a respin of the same game with a smaller community, and less customization.

Perhaps these classic shooters remain popular because they are in fact good games and the players who enjoyed them when they were new still enjoy them now.

The telltale sign of desperation in shooter development is the WoWification of CSS, TF2 and others that suddenly have achievements and economies. If the game isn't fun enough to play just insert a false sense of achievement so players have something to brag about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zalbard

Source: http://www.fudzilla.com/

:rolleyes:
/facepalm
Which recent games are really so awesome, exactly?..

---

awesomes
Super meat boy
The witcher 2
civilization v
fallout
starcraft 2
amnesia
Dead Rising 2
Darksiders

little less awesomes:

Dethspank
recettear
football manager
Lara Croft
Sam & max
Gray matter
bad company 2
ruse

I dont like but a lot of people do

call of duty
F1 2010
234234234234 MMORPG (i dont play but a lot peope loves it)


etc etc and all are titles of the last 3 months or so. I dont know if you have much time to play, but me with work, studies and social life outside the computer I cant play everything that is on the market and I want. I need too choose one game of five and probably less.

I would like to live a groundhog day to do all the awesomes things that we can't do because of time.

Nightstar - I like the added items in TF2. We could all just polish each others railguns I guess, but sometimes its fun to have a rocket launcher too..

Kersh - Which of the games that you listed was the good one?

For me a lot of them.

Super Meat boy is awesome, deathspank is fun, civilization V is on good way to be a successor for BTS plus mods, Starcraft 2 is a superb MP, amnesia is the best horror game of the last years so far, witcher 2 a great rpg

Maybe we have different opinions, for me there are a lot of good games to play. Others will think that 99%of them are crap and we have the last group who only plays if her graphic card cant move the game and say OH GOD THIS IS A GOOOD GAME BECAUSE OF GRAPHICS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kersh

For me a lot of them.

Super Meat boy is awesome, deathspank is fun, civilization V is on good way to be a successor for BTS plus mods, Starcraft 2 is a superb MP, amnesia is the best horror game of the last years so far, witcher 2 a great rpg

Maybe we have different opinions, for me there are a lot of good games to play. Others will think that 99%of them are crap and we have the last group who only plays if her graphic card cant move the game and say OH GOD THIS IS A GOOOD GAME BECAUSE OF GRAPHICS.

---

Super Meat Boy seems pretty fun so far which was released today btw. You also forgot about Minecraft. Thats another little gem.

It does seem to me like some people seem to want 3Dmark 11 and not an actual game. This post comes to mind and no I'm not really a COD fan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mechromancer

DX9.0 Black Ops? C'mon people...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XSAlliN

Well to be honest, you sure fulled me with the other post - based on what you're saying now, you should have been the one saying what I did...

---

If you read my entire original post, instead of taking of section out of context as you did, you'd realize the point of my post, which wasn't flaming console communities but rather explaining why BioWare may have made the statement they did.

Quote:

---

Do you know who's playing those game?

CS 1.6 - played by some who found this game in a net club (for example), learned how to play it and this end-up being "the only game they play" and mostly played by kids with low budged systems, this being one of the best shooters it could run on their rig and lastly, played by those who invested a lot of time in this game, so much that it defines them. This are not hardcore PC gamers - but hardcore "CS 1.6" players (I've also been part of their community - played CS since the early betas, when CS was just a mod for half life -> till v1.6 ...).

Quake 2/3 and UT3 - are still popular cause there aren't many alternatives out there - they did released Quake 4 (you know?) but "WHAT THE F. IS THIS P. of S."!?" - was the main reaction of Quake 2/3 players... and can't blame them (use to be a hardcore Quake 2 player myself).



Yet, how come you're not aware of Tekken being the equivalent of Quake on PS?!

- Do you know that some bought PS3 mainly for this game?

...and let's not forget MK, S.F. and KoF.

---

I'm a lot more interwoven into the tekken community than I am even in the hardware community, and that says something. I play that game so much I actually have a specific combo named after me for christ sakes. I have a job literally based upon my knowledge and ability in this series... literally.

I also know that Tekken 6, while it has done AMAZING in the arcades, it did nowhere near what was expected in terms of american console sales. I mean, people in Korea have been putting 12 hour days on it(not an exaggeration), and they even have a TV show based on tournament play of tekken 6(tekken crash), but honestly the community has died down drastically on the console side of things. Tekken tag tournament 2 should change that. I mean, 1.76 million copies sold on the PS3 sounds great for most titles, but for tekken that's actually extremely weak.

Tekken's biggest issue now is simple... Gamers these days are too lazy to try and master a game as difficult as tekken on a high level. The amount of thought and skill that goes into a match of tekken at top level is insane, performing perfect with 1/60th of a second timing, knowing your distance to the wall, knowing which way each move tracks and what moves you can and can't punish for a cast that big... It's really IMO the hardest fighting game in the world to master.

If I was going to call ANY console game the "quake 3" or CS 1.6 of console gaming, it'd be Super Street Fighter 2 turbo. That game has been played forever by console gamers. Although, as you say CS gamers can't be called hardcore PC gamers, I guess you can't call fighting gamers hardcore console gamers.

Quote:

---

Just out of curiosity - on console communities do you cast the shadow on PC gamers? Cause here, you did exactly the opposite...

---

I don't dog on either side. You merely took part of my post out of context. A real gamer will play games regardless of platform, as long as it's a GOOD game.

Quote:

---

Not a hardcore player of any of those titles anymore - but also, didn't got blinded by PC vs Consoles war... This hate is present on many forums... I've seen many PC gamers with 2000$ - 3000$ rigs, who play mostly pirated games - and blame consoles cause gaming got more terrain under Consoles. Which is obviously - "not their fault for not supporting gaming market under PC" - yet, they afford to... and we also have a large group of PC users who simply don't afford spending money on games... It's also the Devs fault - more than 50% of it and mostly greed related... but the hate towards consoles it's mostly inappropriate... like that which comes from PC owners who think to high of themselves and PC games - even think they're intellectual for being capable of playing games on a PC (saying things like: "console users are so stupid they can't press more than 8 buttons"). :shakes:

---

If the people who think console gamers are stupid ever actually tried to wrap their brains around high level tekken play, I think they'd probably have an seizure. There's more difficulty in actually moving properly in tekken than there is in literally any shooter on the PC... Especially if you play mishima. you can quote me on that

The REAL issue for PC gaming isn't just piracy, it's the fact that a very good sized chunk of PC gamers play one game and only one game. How many WoW players do you know that play other games frequently? How many CS players do you know that play other titles? How many battlefield players?

See the issue here? A good chunk of PC gamers don't have time to devote to multiple titles, and once they find one they like they stick to it. Especially with the mod support behind it. Then, if a sequel slightly changes things they have a huge backlash and stick to the old one.

Fact is, most PC games outside of a few developers get entirely ignored. NO one in their right mind would attempt jumping into said market, because the PC market is the hardest to satisfy, and most of them will NOT give the new guy a chance. It's sad it's turned out this way, but it really has.

Your entire post is about hardcore tekken players who have nothing better to do than play tekken 12 hours a day.. and then watch a tv show about it.

Then you tell us PC gamers are limited to only one game?

how many of the hardcore tekken players play other games?


I admit I ignore a lot of PC games, but thats because most of them are 1-6 hours of boring repetative playtime, then no meaningful multiplayer or community mod base to increase the multiplayer capacity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by STEvil

Your entire post is about hardcore tekken players who have nothing better to do than play tekken 12 hours a day.. and then watch a tv show about it.

Then you tell us PC gamers are limited to only one game?

how many of the hardcore tekken players play other games?


I admit I ignore a lot of PC games, but thats because most of them are 1-6 hours of boring repetative playtime, then no meaningful multiplayer or community mod base to increase the multiplayer capacity.

---

I said Korean top level tekken players can spend up to that much time in the arcade playing it. Have anyone on this forum who lives in Korea go to Green Arcade, they'll see exactly what I speak of. Those guys are animals, and have pretty much made a career out of that game. On console, it's a completely different story.

Most tekken players play other titles too. Holeman, the guy who won MLG Columbus, plays several other titles including WoW(infact, wow has taken up most of his gaming time now to the point that people are saying he's quitting tekken tournaments). Anakin, who won MLG Dallas(and 12.5 grand not including his split of the 3v3 winnings) only plays tekken like an hour a week. A lot of them also player shooters, like COD or Halo. Very few of them ONLY play tekken. A lot of the korean players also play star-craft. Then you factor in other fighters like BlazBlue, KoF, VF(if VF5's updates ever hit console that is), SF, MvC, etc.

Now, turn around and look at WoW players, which is the most widely played PC title. Generally speaking once someone starts that game, that's what they play(and sometimes ALL they play). I personally think some of it has to do with the fact that PC gamers are usually a bit older, which means they have less time to game, which means less time to learn new games... Just a theory of mine, but it's definitely a trend I've noticed. I mean, how many CS players play other shooters? How many starcraft players also play civ 5? People STILL play diablo 2 religiously!

Glance over at consoles, you'll find that most people who play halo also play COD, most people who play madden also play nba live, most people who play God of War also play devil may cry... See the pattern forming here?

I'm not trying to start an argument here. I'm merely pointing out that THIS is probably what BioWare is talking about. PC Gamers tend to stick to their game/series of choice and that's it, and PC games have MUCH longer life spans, so a good PC game from 3 years ago might still end up competition for a game that comes out tomorrow if people are still hooked on it.

I don't know you personally (never heard of you until now - an I believe same goes viceversa :)) so I gived an answer based on your answer...

Quote:

---

A real gamer will play games regardless of platform, as long as it's a GOOD game.

---

- can't say I'm the same gamer as 9 years ago anymore (far from that) but I also have a similar opinion from this point of view - that's why I don't like trashing discussions based on "pc vs. console" subjects and the war among gamers from both sides (most are PC users - something like 70% vs 30%)...

From all the gaming legends, one name pops in my mind and that is: Purri - which used to be one of the best Quake II players (guess he still is)... And in my opinion, Quake is the most intense and hardest shooter you could master on PC - and here's a gameplay video from one the competitions he played. and no he's not playing vs a weaker opponent, since he did got owned on one map... (didn't knew about this competition - was surprise to see Purri still playing... :) ) And yeh, also heard about F4tality - but mostly related to the marketing around him...

The thing is - I know both console and pc users and there isn't much difference among them... and if it wasn't for Piracy - the wouldn't be much difference in terms of game sells either... Both have hardcore players of certain types and both have more passive players - who buy almost any new tittle which has some decency in terms of game play, from steam...

You're also right about WoW community but same goes for many MMO's - and here's a good reason why this is happening...

I honestly, don't see MMO's as a good example - based on the way the guys behind them try to get you addicted to those "systems"... :down:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DilTech

I said Korean top level tekken players can spend up to that much time in the arcade playing it. Have anyone on this forum who lives in Korea go to Green Arcade, they'll see exactly what I speak of. Those guys are animals, and have pretty much made a career out of that game. On console, it's a completely different story.

Most tekken players play other titles too. Holeman, the guy who won MLG Columbus, plays several other titles including WoW(infact, wow has taken up most of his gaming time now to the point that people are saying he's quitting tekken tournaments). Anakin, who won MLG Dallas(and 12.5 grand not including his split of the 3v3 winnings) only plays tekken like an hour a week. A lot of them also player shooters, like COD or Halo. Very few of them ONLY play tekken. A lot of the korean players also play star-craft. Then you factor in other fighters like BlazBlue, KoF, VF(if VF5's updates ever hit console that is), SF, MvC, etc.

Now, turn around and look at WoW players, which is the most widely played PC title. Generally speaking once someone starts that game, that's what they play(and sometimes ALL they play). I personally think some of it has to do with the fact that PC gamers are usually a bit older, which means they have less time to game, which means less time to learn new games... Just a theory of mine, but it's definitely a trend I've noticed. I mean, how many CS players play other shooters? How many starcraft players also play civ 5? People STILL play diablo 2 religiously!

Glance over at consoles, you'll find that most people who play halo also play COD, most people who play madden also play nba live, most people who play God of War also play devil may cry... See the pattern forming here?

I'm not trying to start an argument here. I'm merely pointing out that THIS is probably what BioWare is talking about. PC Gamers tend to stick to their game/series of choice and that's it, and PC games have MUCH longer life spans, so a good PC game from 3 years ago might still end up competition for a game that comes out tomorrow if people are still hooked on it.

---

I think you're generalizing far too much, but oh well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DilTech

Most tekken players play other titles too. Holeman, the guy who won MLG Columbus, plays several other titles including WoW(infact, wow has taken up most of his gaming time now to the point that people are saying he's quitting tekken tournaments). Anakin, who won MLG Dallas(and 12.5 grand not including his split of the 3v3 winnings) only plays tekken like an hour a week. A lot of them also player shooters, like COD or Halo. Very few of them ONLY play tekken. A lot of the korean players also play star-craft. Then you factor in other fighters like BlazBlue, KoF, VF(if VF5's updates ever hit console that is), SF, MvC, etc.

---

Don't forget Xmen vs Streetfighter and Marvel Super Heroes vs Streetfighter.:D
14 years old still going strong,Cod is cool but is the server still going to be full 15 yrs from now .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hell Hound

Don't forget Xmen vs Streetfighter and Marvel Super Heroes vs Streetfighter.:D
14 years old still going strong,Cod is cool but is the server still going to be full 15 yrs from now .

---

those are kinda dead compared to MVC2 though