Another dead DDC 3.25 ?

Hello Fellow Watercoolers - Simple question for ya ?

Why in the fck is Liang allowed to release this DDC 3.25 piece of $hit when it does not work and has not gone thru quality control testing ? I have three of them in use with a XSPC dual DDC bay reservoir (one is presently not attached since it can only hold two obviously) and one works most of the time (notice I said 'most'). The second works when a cloud passes in front of the sun and the third is dead (and it is brand new).

WTF is going on ?

I must say that the pumps are above water line for the gpu and chipset loops they are pushing. .... So sometimes they work and sometimes no. It seems they are extremely sensitive to incoming water flow (if even a small vacuum happens, they stop working).

Do I return this crap and just get the ole faithful MCP 655 and redo the loops or what ?

With the OCZ and EK pumps there's no need to be ripped of by Laing with their overpriced failing pumps any longer.

I like my MCP-350 a lot!

Are you shure that pumps aren't overtightened when mounting to top? I vaguely recall reading that by that you can introduce friction because of pump's impeller touching a bit top due to small clearance in some top cases. My memory might be wrong though. Also .. check how hot their PCBs get when used on that bay reservoir. In some builds that place is in airflow deadspot .. add to that 3.25 being the most powerful (and probably hottest) DDCs, and you might see some overheating/burning out PCBs issues.

Sorry to hear the troubles, not having any 3.25s I have no personal experience. Couldn't say enough good about the two 3.2's I have though. I've had all sorts of different tops on them and have run one long term almost 2 years straight without a hitch.

I have no idea, maybe you just got into a bad batch or something.

Churchy and Martinm, from your experiences how much more reliable would you consider the 3.1 versus 3.2 versus the 3.25.

It seems to me from what I read here at XS and occasionally see at other places, that the 3.1 is much more stable than the 3.2 and the 3.2 cannot be rated to the 3.25 due to the new-ness of the 3.25.

I have purchased 5 ddc little guys from Liang over the last five years and 3 out of the five have failed (and taken my build with it, or induced a long delay until I rebuilt) - 1 DDC 18w (the ole red top) and now two DDC 3.25.

I think Liang needs to get out of the business of selling any of these tiny pumps with more than about 14 ft of head. To say I am at level 10 on the anger scale, would be an understatement.

(Yes Churchy, you are correct on the top clearance, looking into it now)

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

It seems to me from what I read here at XS and occasionally see at other places, that the 3.1 is much more stable than the 3.2 and the 3.2 cannot be rated to the 3.25 due to the new-ness of the 3.25.

I think Liang needs to get out of the business of selling any of these tiny pumps with more than about 14 ft of head. To say I am at level 10 would be an understatement.

(Yes Martinm, you are correct on the top clearance, looking into it now)

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...

*putting on my nice hat*

Ok, as others have said, there are a lot of people who do not have problems with DDC. I for one have yet to have a 3.2 die on me.... *knock on wood*

I had 2 DDC-2's die, and 1 DDC-1 die. But that is the extent to how many DDC's ive lost.

And ive had well over 15 total.

2. Laing never intended us to run these guys with after market tops.
These guys are more typically used in lasers where u need to pump water though very thin tubes @ great head pressure.

Its us that took laings pump, threw in a turbo charger and NOS'd it out.
Have you seen Honda stop making civics because too many people break them while being riced out?

I think maybe its YOUR TOP thats wrong, and not pump.
makes sense how your killing these pumps faster then the life cycle of a house fly.

Hang on. You using XSPC tops?

That seems to be a common thread through this rash of failures is a lot of XSPC top usage. I don't trust XSPC tops... my DDC 3.2 with a Petra top has been fine for 2+ years now.

jayhall: imho almost all DDCs are more or less equally reliable (well, maybe except DDC2, from what i've heard) .. and at least not less reliable as D5. Impression on their unreliability imho comes from simple fact that on each one D5 there are many DDCs being sold, and nobody posts "it's running fine for me", but only "my pump died". So most used pumps+reporting only failures - you get where this is going? Unfortunately nobody except vendors or shops that have on their hands actual statistics/data on RMA pump cases can tell the truth.
Naekuh: wasn't DDC designed especially with PC water cooling in mind? IIRC it was D5 that was initially designed for other uses ..

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Originally Posted by Sparky

Hang on. You using XSPC tops?

That seems to be a common thread through this rash of failures is a lot of XSPC top usage. I don't trust XSPC tops... my DDC 3.2 with a Petra top has been fine for 2+ years now.

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This is the main reason I didn't order a XSPC top. Went with an EKv2 and all is good so far.

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Originally Posted by Sparky

Hang on. You using XSPC tops?

That seems to be a common thread through this rash of failures is a lot of XSPC top usage. I don't trust XSPC tops... my DDC 3.2 with a Petra top has been fine for 2+ years now.

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Yup, XSPC tops + low restriction (CPU only loop) is a very dangerous combination. If anything, just go with another top. Though their performance is great, I'd gladly take the loss over destroying several DDC's.

Jayhall, this is simple experimentational method. When a pc isn't working, you start experimenting. Take out the GPU and put in another, try out different RAM modules, try everything until it works. If it doesn't work the first time, it probably wont the second time (this applies to analyzing problems, not to everything).

I would have gotten curious after the second pump died, and would have started to wonder if maybe the pumps weren't to blame.

If you change your pump top to say, an EK one, and still get dying DDC's then please come back and rub it in, because to this day I've yet to he of a premature death of a DDC with any other top than that of XSPC (other than leaks and such).

Hmm, if xspc tops really have some reliability issues pump-wise, it's a great pitty. After all, their dual 5.25 bay reservoir+pump lineup looks very strong and is used in many builds out there.

I have 4 DDC-2's from 06 that are still running strong. Never used anything but Petra and EK tops and only had one stoppage.

Being that the DDC-2 was the one everyone was scared of using, I have to say I am impressed.

turtletrax: problem is - to be able to say something objectively about reliability one needs data about not two, not 15 but about hundreds at very least, and only vendors/resellers have such.

I have three DDC-2s that are still running strong, two with Alphacool tops and one with Petra's top v1. Great little pumps. YMMV

I have 3 DDC 3.25's and They all work fine although a tad hot. I have a fan under them so it definitely helps there....Now I did have 2 XSPC triple tops fail on me with these DDC's, but the pumps were fine. Too much pressure for the way the top was designed. Do you think maybe the power cable the punps are on my faulty?

I just may sig this:
" think maybe its YOUR TOP thats wrong, and not pump.
makes sense how your killing these pumps faster then the life cycle of a house fly":rofl:

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Churchy and Martinm, from your experiences how much more reliable would you consider the 3.1 versus 3.2 versus the 3.25.

It seems to me from what I read here at XS and occasionally see at other places, that the 3.1 is much more stable than the 3.2 and the 3.2 cannot be rated to the 3.25 due to the new-ness of the 3.25.

I have purchased 5 ddc little guys from Liang over the last five years and 3 out of the five have failed (and taken my build with it, or induced a long delay until I rebuilt) - 1 DDC 18w (the ole red top) and now two DDC 3.25.

I think Liang needs to get out of the business of selling any of these tiny pumps with more than about 14 ft of head. To say I am at level 10 would be an understatement.

(Yes Martinm, you are correct on the top clearance, looking into it now)

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Any more details as to what was being run in the loop (High restriction/low restriction, single or series pumps, which top exactly, air ventilation..)?

I trust my DDC3.2s every bit as much as my D5, although I only run one per loop and they have had a fair amount of restriction.

I've also been running mine with an XPSC standard top, no problems here.

I have seen a few tops (if put on just right) actually impact the impeller. There is enough play in most aftermarket tops, that it's easy enough to do if you slide the pump over before tightening. Also some tops with their exit hole drilled slightly misaligned tend to make the impeller run off axis and that "Off-axis" operation seems to change with restriction.

I guess the only thing that's of any concern to me is that some of these bay type reservoirs don't seem to provide much ventilation to the pump housing. I know 90% of the heat is dumping in the coolant, but they do still get pretty warm on the base.

Also on the failed pumps, did you find any evidence of failure (burnt electronics?)

AlexandrOs - Of the three failures, one occurred about 5 years ago, one was dead on arrival (discovered this today) and one was discovered last night. Trust me, I follow the scientific method. Also the XSPC dual DDC reservoir saves me so much space with the two pumps and 2 reservoirs tied together, that my case is built around it. It would be a royal pain in the a$$ to take all that apart to go with different tops.

Naekuh - If a pump is so sensitive that it overheats and fails within a few dozen hours of (careful) installation, ..... well, dont know what to say. You say this is used to cool lasers. Lets hope no one's eye surgery depends on a laser that is water cooled by this POS. I would not say based on only three cases out of five, that something is wrong, but this $hit in no way reminds me of the stable 655 stuff. I would also guess that XSPC has put in some hours with DDC pumps before they released the Dual DDC reservoirs, so one would hope they could release something that did not damage the pumps. Dont know if you guys noticed or not too, but in this 3.25 model, there are four open holes in the top, where if the o-ring seal fails, water will leak down to the electromagnets and PCB. Any pump this sensitive to environmental variables, is not something I would put out the door, ..... for damn sure.

Bringer of Death - Thanks - checked the power cable and all connections - no problem.

All of you - Removed this DDC 3.25 POS and let it totally dry out in an evaporation chamber. Plugged it back in now and it runs sometimes for 2-3 seconds at a time and then anywhere from 10-30 seconds of nothing, then the cycle repeats (roughly). I am myself well trained in circuits and fixing simple PCBs, so does anyone have the design chart for this 3.25. Also, is there a variable time circuit built in ? .... or a series of variable resistors that work in complicated parallel ?

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Any more details as to what was being run in the loop (High restriction/low restriction, single or series pumps, which top exactly, air ventilation..)?

I trust my DDC3.2s every bit as much as my D5, although I only run one per loop and they have had a fair amount of restriction.

I've also been running mine with an XPSC standard top, no problems here.

I have seen a few tops (if put on just right) actually impact the impeller. There is enough play in most aftermarket tops, that it's easy enough to do if you slide the pump over before tightening. Also some tops with their exit hole drilled slightly misaligned tend to make the impeller run off axis and that "Off-axis" operation seems to change with restriction.

I guess the only thing that's of any concern to me is that some of these bay type reservoirs don't seem to provide much ventilation to the pump housing. I know 90% of the heat is dumping in the coolant, but they do still get pretty warm on the base.

Also on the failed pumps, did you find any evidence of failure (burnt electronics?)

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It was hooked to the bottom left side of the XSPC dual DDC reservoir (for two loops) Martinm. I followed the XSPC installation instructions to the letter,.... the o-ring and pump tightened by the four bolts with a gentle torquing down in a cross pattern. The loop was entirely distilled water 100% and nothing else (no dies or additives). I can say Martinm, that in the bleeding process, this pump acted irregularly and it is above the water line that it is cooling (which is the two ATI 5870 cards). The bottom of the DDC dual reservoir (which the 3.25 mounts to) seems fine to me when measured by the calipers. It also worked fine for almost two weeks and then bang... now when dried it has a really wonky spin cycle. I will check the electronics for you later tonight.

Its been more than 30 days since I ordered this from Performance PCs, so I assume I have to send this back to Laing directly ?

I think danger den does the RMA's of ddc 3.25's.

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

I have purchased 5 ddc little guys from Liang over the last five years and 3 out of the five have failed (and taken my build with it, or induced a long delay until I rebuilt) - 1 DDC 18w (the ole red top) and now two DDC 3.25.

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i use one of these and have for many years.......works great for me. goes into stanby my system many times every day too....

i have pulled it apart but havent used non-factory tops. Just one major cleanup 2 years ago

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Originally Posted by gurusan

With the OCZ and EK pumps there's no need to be ripped of by Laing with their overpriced failing pumps any longer.

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Yeah......frightened to even consider spending money on a 'possible' failing/dead, Laing/Swiftech pump.

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Originally Posted by churchy

turtletrax: problem is - to be able to say something objectively about reliability one needs data about not two, not 15 but about hundreds at very least, and only vendors/resellers have such.

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Understood, and my comment was not really to say otherwise. I was just stating that there may be more at work than Laing selling crap pumps.

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

now when dried it has a really wonky spin cycle.

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what in the world does this mean? :shrug:

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Originally Posted by docwhom

Yeah......frightened to even consider spending money on a 'possible' failing/dead, Laing/Swiftech pump.

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The EK DCP 4.0/OCZ Hydro 800/CPX-Pro is slightly worse in flow than a DDC 3.2...

That said, I got my OCZ HydroPulse 800 for $50 and it's been quiet, awsome the last month and a half. :up:

It means I had to remove the 4 screws from the bottom of the XSPC dual DDC reservoir in order to take the DDC 3.25 for examination (after it was clear it was not working correctly). When I did, obviously a little bit of water leaked out as well (take a look at the XSPC reservoirs at their site if you dont know what I am talking about)

I took it to the evaporation chamber simply to remove all water drops or vapor and to know that if there was a problem, it was not because of any moisture.

I might add again that the engineering geniuses who built this POS left four small holes for water to leak into from the top if it seeps past the o-ring.....brilliant. Perhaps they used to design o-ring seals for the booster rockets on the space shuttle before they acquired their present job.

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Originally Posted by BeepBeep2

The EK DCP 4.0/OCZ Hydro 800/CPX-Pro is slightly worse in flow than a DDC 3.2...

That said, I got my OCZ HydroPulse 800 for $50 and it's been quiet, awsome the last month and a half. :up:

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+1 on this. CPX-Pro on a Supreme HF (P1 plate) with very good temperature results, and no problems. If I find a better way to insulate the bottom of the pump from the case (vibration wise) it might be very good, since 90% of the sound it makes is the vibration - when I pick it up in the air, it's totally inaudible.

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Originally Posted by jayhall0315

I might add again that the engineering geniuses who built this POS left four small holes for water to leak into from the top if it seeps past the o-ring.....brilliant. Perhaps they used to design o-ring seals for the booster rockets on the space shuttle before they acquired their present job.

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Since you've stated this twice...by your definition a typical CPU block or fittings are flawed designs as well. If an o-ring fails on said block, water will leak into the CPU socket, and destroy everything that was once known as a computer...

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Originally Posted by cx-ray

Since you've stated this twice...by your definition a typical CPU block or fittings are flawed designs as well. If an o-ring fails on said block, water will leak into the CPU socket, and destroy everything that was once known as a computer...

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... no, but you dont put the heat exhaust holes (or perhaps they are little tiny holes for elves to climb in at night to power the f#cker with when it fails) directly beside the only o-ring in the pump and directly above where water will leak down to the pump electronics.


I dare say, my Core I7s or some of the ASUS boards I have used, can take the water and keep on running without shorting much more reliably than this DDC 3.25 joke.

Martinm - Question for ya; when the restriction is becomes high ( as some allude to here with the XSPC tops), normally the heat builds at the restriction and flows back to the pump, until the pump itself heats up. It seems like this DDC is not built to withstand 90 deg C or higher. Do you know what the one hour time to kill temp is (roughly) for these DDC 3.2s or 3.25s ?

Also, I have checked the PCB and no burned or (seemingly) damaged components. Do you know where I can get the full PCB circuit diagram ? ... I will trace it out and test for voltage/current tomorrow.