[Review] Skinneelabs CPU Block Roundup #3 Results Database

Just a quick results database of all the blocks tested so far....will be updated as I add new blocks and as I retest old blocks on the new testbed.


Tables

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...yosXTstock.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...yosXTthick.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...bles/HK3LT.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...s/KLCPU360.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...upremeHFP1.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...nzoStealth.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...s/XSPCRasa.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...geeGTbowed.png


Charts

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images.../FlowVTemp.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images.../PumpVTemp.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images.../PumpVFlow.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...SimpleTemp.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...s/BestTemp.png

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...SimpleFlow.png


Performance Scores

Something a little different! Relative Thermal Performance Score is just a simple linear scoring method where 10 is the best-as-tested block and 1 is the worst-as-tested block. Scores are derived from the average of the best mount and the average mount (so representative of approximately 75th percentile mount).


http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images.../TempScore.png

Overall Relative Performance Score takes the Relative Thermal Performance Score and the flowrates at medium pumping power and averages them with a 5-part-thermal and 2-part-flow weighting, then rescales from 1 to 10.

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...erallScore.png

Hey, I kind of like that overall comparison score. Even though the thermal performance and restriction of the block are of different importance to people, it gives a good idea which is a good temp vs flow block :D. I'd like to see it again in following tests ;).

Nice while in a cpu only loop, thermals are all that matters, I like having both graphs to give some benefit to the lowere pressure drop blocks too. There is some importance there in multiple block loops even if is pretty small.

Can't get over how consistent your data graphs are between blocks..you really have this block testing down pat..awesome work!!:clap::up:

Thanks guys! :toast:

Working through retesting the CPU-360 right now, seems contact is better than in my original review and performance is agreeing too. Maybe I still had cap clearance issues with the GB boards? :shrug:

How do the overall numbers 'feel' to you? Trying to use the raw numbers to create a scoring system that feels right. I agree that thermal results are the only thing that matter for CPU-only loops, but I feel like I should also implement a score that incorporates restriction somehow and this was my first attempt.

I'd actually argue that more restrictive blocks are marginally better in a few respects (potentially lower performance degradation when adding secondary restriction; lower heatdump from the pump), but that's neither here nor there (and the differences are incredibly minute).

Vapor: Just don't implement any 'subjective number scoring system' .. probably because seen it abused too much at many places, eg. @software review sites with so called 'stars' scoring system, reviews in car magazines to name some. Comments on quality/mount sys/other alike details should be enough. As for trying to unifying flow & temp numbers .. don't know if it's worth it. After all, it's too hard to judge or guess right importance of one over other in mirriads of different loops possible. Two rows of numbers/charts (flow/temps) in current reviews imho good enough. For me it would be interesting to see added pricing chart in addition to existing ones, but i can easily get by without. There is saying, that best is enemy of good.

Will a fully tweaked Fuzion make it to the testbed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by churchy

Vapor: Just don't implement any 'subjective number scoring system' .. probably because seen it abused too much at many places, eg. @software review sites with so called 'stars' scoring system, reviews in car magazines to name some. Comments on quality/mount sys/other alike details should be enough. As for trying to unifying flow & temp numbers .. don't know if it's worth it. After all, it's too hard to judge or guess right importance of one over other in mirriads of different loops possible. Two rows of numbers/charts (flow/temps) in current reviews imho good enough. For me it would be interesting to see added pricing chart in addition to existing ones, but i can easily get by without. There is saying, that best is enemy of good.

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Great points :) No subjective scoring system will ever be used--they're useless. I'm still on the fence with the "Overall Performance Score" since the weighting is inherently subjective despite using only objective data.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Will a fully tweaked Fuzion make it to the testbed?

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Will a tweaked Fuzion V2 suffice? Last time I tested the FV2 with a high-pressure mounting, it came in almost identically to the HK3.0 LC. Would be interesting to see what a few more tweaks would do (nozzle, broader pin to plate contact, etc). Though it's not first on the list....catching up with the best blocks of Roundup #2 (plus midplate tweaking for the CPU360), then a few new blocks, then back to TIM for a couple months, occasionally adding some CPU blocks to the database.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vapor

Will a tweaked Fuzion V2 suffice? Last time I tested the FV2 with a high-pressure mounting, it came in almost identically to the HK3.0 LC. Would be interesting to see what a few more tweaks would do (nozzle, broader pin to plate contact, etc). Though it's not first on the list....catching up with the best blocks of Roundup #2 (plus midplate tweaking for the CPU360), then a few new blocks, then back to TIM for a couple months, occasionally adding some CPU blocks to the database.

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Yeah, it'll do for now. It would be nice to see what, if anything, can be further pulled out of a V2 though. I still think there might be a little more performance hiding there somewhere.

Why do you think a V1 could outperform a V2? Isn't the only difference base thickness and the assembly of the top/midplate?

Looking around the various etailers, it seems all things Fuzion are going OoS, so maybe something new is coming from them?

I never mentioned a V1, just didn't specify V2 in my first post. ;)

I hope that's all it is, the last I heard (which was quite a while ago), there was some kind of rumor about "health concerns" with Danny.

Oh, I thought you were disappointed with me using the V2 when you said "it'll do for now." :p:

I hope Danny's alright, I haven't heard about any health concerns, but I don't have my ear to the ground either :eh:

please, what is the " bowed " , and why it is compared ?

Just a little disappointed it won't be fully tweaked is all. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Factotum

please, what is the " bowed " , and why it is compared ?

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Apogee GT includes two o-rings. The standard one and a thicker one that bows the base. The bowed version performs better. The Apogee GT is in this as a reference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Just a little disappointed it won't be fully tweaked is all. ;)

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You want V1 and V2 tweaking? :confused:

Will you test the new Enzotech Stealth? It released behind our backs for as much as a Supreme HF, so it might actually be quite good. I would also think you should get the full-silver Kryos HF to see if the alleged higher thermal conductivity of silver really helps. Even if it doesn't, the base is its own biocide, which is awesome, but it'd be great to have a test to see if it does.

If I get one to test, definitely :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vapor

You want V1 and V2 tweaking? :confused:

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Nope, just the V2. I'm certain there's a little more hiding in it somewhere. Your spring pressure mod + maybe the Quad, 6.5 & 5.5 nozzles.

I have a nozzle mod in mind for one of mine but it's a "get it right or screw up the mid plate" type mod. Not really geared towards increasing pressure as much as increasing "spray area" while trying to maintain the current pressure drop as much as possible.

The bowed version would work best with non-lapped surfaces, right? I'm not really suggesting this, but maybe someone could do a lapped test.

I guess if I had to decided on my preference, it would be two graphs.
1) pumping powere vs cpu temp as you've already done.
2)flow rate or pressure drop...maybe flow rate vs pumping power

Then people can decide for themselves what's important..

Also wouldn't hurt to have some sort of scoring on mounting system since it is really important that its easy. A difficult block to mount might be a good performer for someone with a lot of testing experience, but perform poor for those mounting a block for the first time. This is probably not emphasized enough..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Nope, just the V2. I'm certain there's a little more hiding in it somewhere. Your spring pressure mod + maybe the Quad, 6.5 & 5.5 nozzles.

I have a nozzle mod in mind for one of mine but it's a "get it right or screw up the mid plate" type mod. Not really geared towards increasing pressure as much as increasing "spray area" while trying to maintain the current pressure drop as much as possible.

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Ah, we're thinking along the same lines then :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I guess if I had to decided on my preference, it would be two graphs.
1) pumping powere vs cpu temp as you've already done.
2)flow rate or pressure drop...maybe flow rate vs pumping power

Then people can decide for themselves what's important..

Also wouldn't hurt to have some sort of scoring on mounting system since it is really important that its easy. A difficult block to mount might be a good performer for someone with a lot of testing experience, but perform poor for those mounting a block for the first time. This is probably not emphasized enough..

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Hmmm, skinnee is going to be doing pdrop on these blocks, hopefully that'll work out. I guess in the meantime I could throw together a flow vs. pumping power chart.

As for mounting scoring--I wish I could but it really is subjective and I think they'd all be in two camps, an 8-9.5 camp and a 1-3 camp. I sometimes wish some manufacturers would stop trying to get more performance and focus on improved mounting (modern Swiftech, D-Tek Pro-Mount, and Koolance mounting are all great, I think) and lower cost.

With all the CPU blocks I have at my disposal...which ones do I grab first when I just need to throw one on the testbed to do something? Koolance CPU-360 or the Apogee GTZ-SE, depending on what backplate is already there (I'd go for the Apogee XT over the GTZ-SE, but it's incompatible with my eVGA E758 :(). It's all because of mounting too...they're just so much better than the EK/HK/AC/Enzo/DD kits.

As for performance loss due to mount difficulty--I hear ya, but that's even more difficult to quantify :(

Thank you for the testing. Much appreciated! :up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vapor

Ah, we're thinking along the same lines then :)

Hmmm, skinnee is going to be doing pdrop on these blocks, hopefully that'll work out. I guess in the meantime I could throw together a flow vs. pumping power chart.

As for mounting scoring--I wish I could but it really is subjective and I think they'd all be in two camps, an 8-9.5 camp and a 1-3 camp. I sometimes wish some manufacturers would stop trying to get more performance and focus on improved mounting (modern Swiftech, D-Tek Pro-Mount, and Koolance mounting are all great, I think) and lower cost.

With all the CPU blocks I have at my disposal...which ones do I grab first when I just need to throw one on the testbed to do something? Koolance CPU-360 or the Apogee GTZ-SE, depending on what backplate is already there (I'd go for the Apogee XT over the GTZ-SE, but it's incompatible with my eVGA E758 :(). It's all because of mounting too...they're just so much better than the EK/HK/AC/Enzo/DD kits.

As for performance loss due to mount difficulty--I hear ya, but that's even more difficult to quantify :(

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Yeah, I'm not sure even the standard deviation of your 6 mounts would really show it either? Just one of those things that's hard to put any solid numbers to. A subjective ranking is probably all you could do, but I still think it would be worthwhile as a separate piece of information. IMHO, there's no reason for washers and thumbnuts you can loose, or the necessity to measure spring compression to ensure equal mounting pressure.

I would certainly encourage it..even if it is subjective..its important enough. And if you keep it as a separate piece of information, the reader can either decide what to do with it.

BTW, if outdated mounting sys makes very possible bad mounts, then imho almost for shure each review of cpu blocks should include hints/instructions/step by step walkthrough how to ensure better/consistent mount with it. And all 'easy' performance mods should be added/described in details aswell (if such exist for particular block). After all, lot from LC crowd are first timers that might apreciate every helping bit of information they can get hands on to enshure top performance of hardware they bought, no matter what outdated designs some vendors might use.

Also FWIW, I think most people would better comprehend flow vs. pumping power. Even though it is specific to the test system, I think the majority of our readers have a hard time understanding pressure drop curves even though it pressure drop is the more scientific way. We just don't see as much variance to the curvature in blocks, so regular old flow rate works pretty well for the most part. Besides, it's data you've already collected, so that's even better.

Flow vs. Pumping power would be perfect and would compliment your CPUtemp vs. pumping power chart nicely.

That would be my vote..:)

1) CPU temp vs Pumping Power (Tested)
2) Flow rate vs Pumping Power (Tested)
3) Mounting Consistency/Ease of use (Subjective)

The rest is all visual, barb compatibility, and cost... and people can figure that out well enough with pictures/specs/shopping around.

Updated with Koolance CPU-360 rev1.1 data!

Looks like the improved contact (though I can't attribute it....maybe an issue with my old board?) is helping :toast:

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...s/klcpu360.png

Pulled the overall score chart until I can get something up with no subjective weighting.

Added a Pumping Power vs. Flowrate chart per recommendation of Martin :D

Will be updating the with XSPC Rasa data shortly, review goes up in a few days. CPU-360 Rev1.2 testing hit a snag so I'm onto the Enzotech Stealth and hopefully can also get the Ybris Black Sun done before I go to GOOC and on vacation after that (though I don't think I can get the Stealth and the Black Sun 100% tested before departure).

Reintroducing the "Overall Performance" chart as well....this time it's a mix of 5 parts thermal and 2 parts flow. Will be an especially meaningful metric during midplate/nozzle testing (though I do flatly prefer thermal performance, a combined metric does have value).

Still tossing ideas around for mounting system grading.

EDIT: Rasa table:
http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...s/XSPCRasa.png

You might also consider some sort of "Overclock Potential" bar chart. Gabe notes it takes 10C to see a 1.5-2% overclock gain.

If we are seeing at most 9 degrees from best to worst, that's only 1.5%

So if you ran the GT at 4000Mhz, the best block would afford you 4060Mhz??

I think that helps put things into a more bottom line Mhz perspective.

Or if someone currently has a HK and they are thinking of "Upgrading" to the AC Kros....the difference is 2.2 degrees or .38%. 4000MHz-->4015MHz

IMHO, while temperature is something we all THINK we understand because everyone has the ability to measure....I don't think people really understand what temperature means to overclock.

Some sort of simple bar chart showing OVERCLOCK in MHZ would be a good way of speaking a common language to a larger audience.

I may be way out of line here, but from my own, very poorly done tests. some blocks seem to scale better than others as CPU output rises. I know this would be a very exhaustive test to perform and Vapor needs a new CPU that will overclock higher to do it. lol
It would be a very interesting test.. unless I have too many variables, and poor testing methods, and that is what is causing the scaling to be different?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

IMHO, while temperature is something we all THINK we understand because everyone has the ability to measure....I don't think people really understand what temperature means to overclock.

Some sort of simple bar chart showing OVERCLOCK in MHZ would be a good way of speaking a common language to a larger audience.

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It would also be horribly depressing. Nothing like realizing that your $400 WC system got you less than 100Mhz over an air cooler. :D

Although seriously, regarding the 10*C=2% improvement, quite often, I think you run into temperature limitations (i.e. thermal throttling) before you technically hit that limit. What the water cooling also does does is give you the headroom to increase voltage/frequency, to reach the chip's limits without running into temperature walls (i.e. GTX480). And that's something that's a little harder to put into chart form.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MpG

It would also be horribly depressing. Nothing like realizing that your $400 WC system got you less than 100Mhz over an air cooler. :D

Although seriously, regarding the 10*C=2% improvement, quite often, I think you run into temperature limitations (i.e. thermal throttling) before you technically hit that limit. What the water cooling also does does is give you the headroom to increase voltage/frequency, to reach the chip's limits without running into temperature walls (i.e. GTX480). And that's something that's a little harder to put into chart form.

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Ahh I see, I just figure it a better unit to compare with. When I started test it was just on flow rate and found that really tends to give some false understanding because flow rate changes just didn't amount to much regarding temperature. From the little I do understand it seems a similar relation is there between temperature and overclock.

I just figure if we are all cooling for max overclock, it would be awesome to compare overclock directly.

Perhaps that's too messy, just an idea. It would at least be a good tool to understand when deciding to upgrade existing harware. Is $80 really worth 15MHZ etc.

For example, I currently have an EK supreme v1 and I thought about upgrading to an HF or other newer block. Personally, I leave a good 500Mhz cushion in my overclock, so from a performance standpoint it doesn't pencil out. Now I have to make my decision on other factors than performance...etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

You might also consider some sort of "Overclock Potential" bar chart. Gabe notes it takes 10C to see a 1.5-2% overclock gain.

If we are seeing at most 9 degrees from best to worst, that's only 1.5%

So if you ran the GT at 4000Mhz, the best block would afford you 4060Mhz??

I think that helps put things into a more bottom line Mhz perspective.

Or if someone currently has a HK and they are thinking of "Upgrading" to the AC Kros....the difference is 2.2 degrees or .38%. 4000MHz-->4015MHz

IMHO, while temperature is something we all THINK we understand because everyone has the ability to measure....I don't think people really understand what temperature means to overclock.

Some sort of simple bar chart showing OVERCLOCK in MHZ would be a good way of speaking a common language to a larger audience.

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That would be a big mess :p:

And I just don't have applicable data for how this CPU, let alone any CPU, scales with temperature. :shrug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justin.kerr

I may be way out of line here, but from my own, very poorly done tests. some blocks seem to scale better than others as CPU output rises. I know this would be a very exhaustive test to perform and Vapor needs a new CPU that will overclock higher to do it. lol
It would be a very interesting test.. unless I have too many variables, and poor testing methods, and that is what is causing the scaling to be different?

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If I were to have a second test setting, it would be at lower settings. 4GHz at 1.5v (measured via DMM....CPUz says 1.55v) on a D0 (this chip was also binned from a selection of 5 as the hottest of the group) is about as hot as I can reliably do. Surely I'm already causing degradation at this kind of voltage and this why clocks are only at 4GHz--I want the chip to have a moderately long life so that I don't have to keep breaking test continuity. 4.4GHz at 1.4v isn't as hot or as stable as 4GHz at 1.5v.

That said, I have no intention of doubling my workload for data that doesn't add much value.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vapor

I just don't have applicable data for how this CPU, let alone any CPU, scales with temperature. :shrug:

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I have no idea either, that's why I'm wondering and why I'm interested. The first I heard anything was from Gabe after I asked a few weeks back. He said it takes about 10C lowering of temperature to see a 1.5-2% overclock gain or doubling the life of the silicon.

I know heat and temperature are two different things and it's the increase in voltage that creates the extra heat more than anything and that it's pretty darn tricky to define stability as well.

What I would like to understand better is the overclock significance between blocks. Obviously we can measure the resulting temperature differences between blocks...but is that temperature difference of any significant overclock value.

Basically, does one block allow you to overclock more than another?

If not, then we can say there's no statistical significance in overclock potential. There is a difference in temperature, but it's not large enough to allow an increase in processor performance...etc. The only real value would be a very small increase silicon life.

I gave up my a/c unit testing room to my kids, so I don't even have the ability to control ambient temps anymore or I'd try it myself. Just too hard to do any stability testing when my house varies in ambients from 50F to 75F throughout the day.

I have seen that my once stable Q6600 @ 3.6Ghz has degraded in about 1 year's time and no longer stable there despite the same setup.

This just seems to be an area that's not very well explored...would be awesome to learn more about it even if it was just one test of worst vs best as a supplemental or completely independent test.:up:

where does the Swiftech Apogee XT come into the graph?
seems to be missing from the high end blocks.

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Originally Posted by zeropluszero

where does the Swiftech Apogee XT come into the graph?
seems to be missing from the high end blocks.

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Apogee XT is incompatible with my testbed's motherboard, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Vapor

Apogee XT is incompatible with my testbed's motherboard, unfortunately.

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you didnt get a Gigabyte baseplate?

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Originally Posted by zeropluszero

you didnt get a Gigabyte baseplate?

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I did....but it's still incompatible with the EVGA E758.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vapor

Apogee XT is incompatible with my testbed's motherboard, unfortunately.

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boo :down:

Enzotech Stealth numbers go up tomorrow!

Rasa review is delayed due to travel. Will say this about the mounting: really liked it the first mount but was really, really tired of it by the sixth mount (it's way better than AC/EK/HK but way behind Koolance/Swiftech/D-Tek). Overall, it's probably the best value out there right now--flagship performance at $55 is really attractive. That same price ceiling limits you to an Apogee GTZ, a Supreme LT, an HK3.0LC, or an Enzo Sapphire Rev.A, none of which have top-of-the-class performance.

Updated with Enzotech Stealth! :D

http://skinneelabs.com/assets/images...nzoStealth.png

really interesting stuff
thanks for sharing :up:
maybe on the next round you could add some new and cheap contenders like the phobya and the Zern PQ which seem to do quite well in regard to their msrp

I have a Phobya here and have done prelim testing on it and it's just plain awful. I have more blocks to add to this round too....I don't see this round ending until 2011, at least.

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Originally Posted by Vapor

I have a Phobya here and have done prelim testing on it and it's just plain awful. I have more blocks to add to this round too....I don't see this round ending until 2011, at least.

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i'd really love to see that in your testbed
cause so far i've seen quite well results in other reviews..
but since i haven't watched these reviewers
i cannot bet on their objectiveness

reviews like these two don't seem so bad from my pov

Just got back from vacation and got started on testing the DimasTech Nethuns when the board and PSU committed murder-suicide :(

EPS 12V connector burned out completely--few inches of the 12V wires are totally stripped and corroded too. So much for the into-2011 prediction I made a few posts up :rolleyes:

Back to the drawing board and to Newegg for the next testbed, sigh.

Did you guys ever get any feedback from Heatkiller about the "silicon hack" that improved temps?

Vapor: i suggest new Corsair AX PSUs for replacement. Good ripple supression/gold efficiency/fully modular.