Pure-Sil Biocidal coolant

Been working on this the last few weeks, first batch should be at Petra's on Tuesday.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...re-Sil0082.jpg

The only available size atm is 32oz. in a flip-top cylindrical bottle, I'm not sure of the exact sale price yet but it will be priced comparably to other coolant products.

I make NO claim that this coolant is "superior" to plain old, high quality distilled water. The only claims I make are that it has a guaranteed purity, and has a guaranteed silver ion content (which gives it biocidal properties).

The problem with store bought distilled is that you never really know what you are getting unless you measure its conductivity yourself with a properly calibrated meter. Good quality distilled or deionized water should have a conductivity of <1µS. As an experiment I purchased every brand of distilled water I could find earlier this week. I tested them all, and the worst of the bunch was 22.5µS. That is HORRID quality for steam distilled water, and while not exactly incredibly dirty, it isn't exactly pure either. Most of them were under 2µS, although the second worst at around 11µS was a name brand.

I talked to a guy who said he personally has measured store-bought distilled as bad as 86µS... that is BAD. He called the manufacturer and alerted them, the next batch was down to 25µS, he called once more and the batch after that was finally at spec (<1µS).

The water I use for this coolant is lab grade water purchased from a chemical supplier. Once again, there is no claim it is "better" than good quality distilled, but at least I know EXACTLY what I am selling to people, and they know EXACTLY what they are getting, unlike buying store bought distilled and not having a clue whether it is actually pure or not unless it is tested.

The water used in each batch is tested for purity once I recieve it. My test meter is calibrated using a factory supplied calibration solution each time. Each and every bottle is ionized and tested for ion content individually. The measured ion content, initial purity, and batch number are then handwritten on the label as seen. It takes about two hours per bottle (32oz.) to produce. This is so that I can keep the non-ionic silver particle level small. It also ensures that I am forming a high purity silver solution, cranking the juice can cause all kinds of nasty unwanted silver compounds to be formed... that would mean an unsafe and low quality product.

This coolant combined with copper ions shed by the blocks in a loop creates Copper-Silver ionization, which is death to just about any known single celled organism that can grow in a loop.

I make the silver ion content MUCH higher than is necessary, so the biocidal properties of this coolant should last for a very long time as long as the loop is cleaned properly before filling (silver ions will bond to loop contaminants). Luckily about 5-10% of the silver content of this coolant is made of neutrally charged atomic clusters (aka colloids), so no matter what, there always will be some silver present, even in an amazingly dirty loop.

Using additional silver such as an ingot or coil is not necessary, but recommended for those who plan on running long-life loops, and the solution will drop ions over time both through slow action with the loop, and through interaction with any biological agents that attempt to grow.

As far as safety goes, none of the particles are larger than water molecules, so they should have no effect whatsoever on pump bearings. The coolant is non toxic and safe to drink, even in larger quantities, although it may give you a slightly upset stomach due to the silver wiping out friendly bacteria in your gut. If someone does drink it, eating a cup of yogurt is the only treatment needed.

good drills!, its a year before I build a new rig (wedding to pay for) but this and/or your kill coils will be on the list.
One question............ whats it taste like?

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Originally Posted by m1013828

good drills!, its a year before I build a new rig (wedding to pay for) but this and/or your kill coils will be on the list.
One question............ whats it taste like?

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TBH kinda metallic. :p:

Some people take this as a health supplement but that is a whole different discussion; not gonna go there :D

There's mountains of controversey to be found on google regarding that...

Wow, nice! This is a great resource for people who don't have access to good quality distilled water.

Sounds excellent iandh :)

You of all people may know the answer to this. I work at a university, in a building that does psychology experiments etc. We apparently have a distilled filtration system built into our building(building was built this year, brand new). Considering it's a university, and they use the water to do experiments with - I would assume it's plenty pure enough. But how would I go about testing it?

Good deal iandh.

What issues could be found from using distilled water that is as bad as your 2 worse ones?

Nice product. Any idea on price?

It will be priced slightly less than most pre-mix coolants (so < $20), but it isn't what I would call cheap. I feel it will be a fair price, all things considered.

There is a lot of time and effort involved, plus almost $500 in initial investment, and I have a very limited production capacity.

If it seems to be very popular I will invest in higher production capacity and may be able to drop the price a bit. The main problem is that I can only ionize at a certain rate and still maintain high purity, so it's pretty much 2hrs per bottle unless I fork out another couple hundred bucks. :cool:

edit: i r gud spelur

Not to discredit this or anything, but wouldn't it be much much cheaper if online retailers (ie Petra's) simply advertised and shipped known brands of distilled water that are more than fine for watercooling purposes? I for one know that distilled water available here in California (ie where Petra's is located), has pretty high purity, is greatly inexpensive, and perfectly suitable for wc needs with a silver coil. Your effort and constant innovation of available products are commendable, but I'm just curious towards this more expensive approach.

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Originally Posted by rehpyc

Not to discredit this or anything, but wouldn't it be much much cheaper if online retailers (ie Petra's) simply advertised and shipped known brands of distilled water that are more than fine for watercooling purposes? I for one know that distilled water available here in California (ie where Petra's is located), has pretty high purity, is greatly inexpensive, and perfectly suitable for wc needs with a silver coil. Your effort and constant innovation of available products are commendable, but I'm just curious towards this more expensive approach.

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I already did mention above "I'm not claiming this is superior to plain old distilled water". It isn't. It is certified as very pure water with silver ions... that is all it is, and that is all I am advertising it as.

Feser, for example, sells plain distilled for almost $10 a liter, with the only justification being "conductance less than 0.5µS". The "double distilled" pitch is nice and all, but I've tested $1 a gallon store bought distilled (Arrowhead brand) as low as 0.3µS, which is better than what Feser specs their water which costs $40 a gallon.

I find it pretty hard to justify that more expensive approach, but people still seem to buy the stuff. ;)

The three different batches of arrowhead I've tested have varied anywhere from 0.3µS to 0.8µS. That's pretty impressive, but OTOH some of the other brands I tested were downright unimpressive. As I mentioned in the OP, if you think that buying distilled water means you are getting pure water, you are mistaken. It means you probably are getting pure water. After talking to the person who sold me my equipment, and my own personal experiences water shopping, I will never put water into my loop again without either knowing it is pure through its certification, or by testing it myself. Here is a excellent, inexpensive test meter:

http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2....dCode=HI 98308

It can be found online for as low as $60 shipped, but I recommend purchasing calibration solution which will bring the price closer to $70-75. I use this meter for spot checking and a higher accuracy one that I borrow from work is used for initial certification of my water quality and confirmation of my personal meter's accuracy.

The main purpose of this coolant is as an option for those that don't readily have distilled available to them, and secondarily for those that don't want to worry about whether the distilled they are buying is actually pure or not. It also acts as a biocide, so if one were to buy this coolant it wouldn't be necessary to buy one of my silver coils. If you subtract that from the cost, it ends up about the same as the distilled products already available. :)

The addition of silver ions not only gives the coolant biocidal properties; I've found that the coolant's pH moves closer to neutral after the ionization process... plain distilled/DI water typically has a slightly acidic pH.

Petra's could sell certified and repackaged distilled water, but to make it worthwhile they'd have to sell it for the same price as the Feser distilled, so why make a product that is already easily available? They'd be better off selling water test meters on their site TBH. Plus, if they purchased and shipped store-bought distilled, even if they had certified it for purity, and marked it up enough to make it worthwhile to bother with, they would then be criticized for making profit from "no work" and marking up something that anyone could go buy.

The bottom line is, there are all kind of coolants on the market that are dripping wet with snake oil. At least mine is represented for exactly what it is. I don't even claim that it does anything special other than its biocidal properties, and possibly the more neutral pH. Everyone already knows that they can somewhat reliably source decent quality distilled from supermarkets for dirt cheap; and anyone who chooses to buy my product does so with that already in mind.

edit: Also keep in mind that some people like just being able to pop a couple bottles of coolant into their online shopping cart and not have to worry about going out and finding distilled. It's a convenience item as well as a specialty item, much like the killcoils. Taken from a cost justification of my killcoils in another thread, a 20 mile round trip to the market costs me about $22 total in gas and wear and tear on my truck. All of a sudden that $1 gallon of distilled costs $23 a gallon. Obviously that doesn't count if you pick up the water while you are already out on a grocery trip, but OTOH most people don't go grocery shopping in the middle of setting up their WC loops. There's just too many angles one can look at this to really nail it down. :)


Please don't think I took offense to your comment; I didn't. I'm just trying to explain to you where this product fits in, and offer you some alternate viewpoints.

I think this is a great idea iandh. It is a really nice alternative for people who don't want to put a chunk of silver in their loop.

I have a question that I couldn't find the answer to on google:
How long does it take for acceptable levels of silver ionization?

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Originally Posted by faster3200

I think this is a great idea iandh. It is a really nice alternative for people who don't want to put a chunk of silver in their loop.

I have a question that I couldn't find the answer to on google:
How long does it take for acceptable levels of silver ionization?

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Do you mean from a chunk of silver in your loop, or when I'm preparing this coolant?

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Originally Posted by iandh

Do you mean from a chunk of silver in your loop, or when I'm preparing this coolant?

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When you are preparing the coolant.

Do you electrochemically accelerate the process?

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Originally Posted by faster3200

When you are preparing the coolant.

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TBH, a few minutes, but I want a much, much higher ion content in the product I sell to ensure its longevity and to account for people that may use the product in improperly cleaned loops that may dump contaminants that bond with the silver ions. The necessary level is 20-40 parts per billion, I have set a lower limit at 5 parts per million, but I usually hit 6.5-7ppm just to be sure.

It takes me about two hours per bottle to reach that concentration. It can be done much faster, but the higher the current, the larger the particles that may be kicked off instead of ions. I am trying to keep the particle size to an absolute minimum (although most of the content is still ionic), so gotta keep it low and slow. :)

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Originally Posted by cegras

Do you electrochemically accelerate the process?

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Nope, this is another reason why it is so slow. Pure water and electricity only, no conductivity enhancers.

edit: If by that question you mean "do I apply juice", yes, a constant current DC power supply is used. Sometimes chemicals such as salt are added in tiny amounts to plating baths to increase conductivity and reduce process time, I do not do that in my process, for purity's sake.

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Originally Posted by iandh

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Petra's could sell certified and repackaged distilled water, but to make it worthwhile they'd have to sell it for the same price as the Feser distilled, so why make a product that is already easily available? They'd be better off selling water test meters on their site TBH. Plus, if they purchased and shipped store-bought distilled, even if they had certified it for purity, and marked it up enough to make it worthwhile to bother with, they would then be criticized for making profit from "no work" and marking up something that anyone could go buy.

...

Please don't think I took offense to your comment; I didn't. I'm just trying to explain to you where this product fits in, and offer you some alternate viewpoints.

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No worries, I would be the one to fear offending you as opposed to the opposite given I respect the work you do for the people in the water cooling community and this site :up:

What I quoted above is what my angle of thought on things was primarily with keeping those who don't have such easy access to quality distilled water in mind. In California, there's a wide variety of brands that can be chosen from, but it's very much understandable that in many other states the options are slim and could often be those brands that don't have a low purity level. For those not in the US.. we've read their stories about how expensive distilled water can be or the lack of availability.. if they're already purchasing from Petra's or such, why not add that to the order for the convenience?

Nevertheless, I think your product is a good idea and definitely hope you at least make enough revenue to cover all initial fixed production costs so that you keep transforming more of your ideas to a reality.

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Originally Posted by rehpyc

No worries, I would be the one to fear offending you as opposed to the opposite given I respect the work you do for the people in the water cooling community and this site :up:

What I quoted above is what my angle of thought on things was primarily with keeping those who don't have such easy access to quality distilled water in mind. In California, there's a wide variety of brands that can be chosen from, but it's very much understandable that in many other states the options are slim and could often be those brands that don't have a low purity level. For those not in the US.. we've read their stories about how expensive distilled water can be or the lack of availability.. if they're already purchasing from Petra's or such, why not add that to the order for the convenience?

Nevertheless, I think your product is a good idea and definitely hope you at least make enough revenue to cover all initial fixed production costs so that you keep transforming more of your ideas to a reality.

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Agreed, most of the purchasers probably won't be from big cities, places where there are a lot of large supermarkets and distilled water is plentiful... mostly small towns/international. It's still reasonably priced enough to use for people that can get distilled easily, as I said before it's just kind of one of those things people decide.

Gotta still recommend anyone who has a few extra bucks to purchase a test meter though, they're pretty darned handy. Cool way of telling how clean your loop is too, if you measure your coolant after a few days running through the loop and it maxes out the meter, you probably need to flush moar. :p:

I didn't mean to bad mouth Feser's product by what I said, just that I think that niche is already sort of filled. I definitely DO have personal opinions (good or bad) about every product and manufacturer, but I generally try to keep them personal.

I may discuss repackaged distilled with Petra's though and see what they think, I've already got the lab grade water and the bottles so it wouldn't be all that hard to add next to this Pure-Sil stuff.

I see. If I'm guessing correctly, the anode is silver and the cathode is something like graphite? My fundamentals are terrible, but I imagine the silver oxidizes to emit electrons to the cathode while release free ions into solution.

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Originally Posted by cegras

I see. If I'm guessing correctly, the anode is silver and the cathode is something like graphite? My fundamentals are terrible, but I imagine the silver oxidizes to emit electrons to the cathode while release free ions into solution.

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Both anode and cathode are silver, electrons/ions are kicked off the anode into solution, some stay in solution and some end up building as film on cathode. I use a magnetic stirrer to speed things up and allow more ions to stay in solution rather than traveling directly over to the cathode.

The electrodes are cleaned every batch to maintain uniformity in the product. After every ten or so runs I switch the anode and cathode to keep wear even.

Could I use a dye with this product?

Another fine product, iandh. I have always appreciated your consistent strive for quality and able to fill in voids in watercooling. Thanks for bringing this to market.

I will definitely be picking up some of this stuff for when I redo my loop.

Will there be any issues with using dye bombs with it?

If you have primochill pro lrt this is meaningless.

I make my own with silver ingots and a few weeks in a bucket with deionized. Good idea though for sure :up:

I have serious respect for your honesty in bringing this product forth which is a heck of a lot more then I can say for other companies making outrageous claims. This is a neat product if you want to save yourself some time and have the insurance of clean water being used. Keep up the good work! :up:

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Originally Posted by damha

If you have primochill pro lrt this is meaningless.

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K.

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Originally Posted by Sadasius

I have serious respect for your honesty in bringing this product forth which is a heck of a lot more then I can say for other companies making outrageous claims. This is a neat product if you want to save yourself some time and have the insurance of clean water being used. Keep up the good work! :up:

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I don't sell snake oil, I just sell plain old distilled water with a twist. :)

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Originally Posted by iandh

I don't sell snake oil, I just sell plain old distilled water with a twist. :)

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. . .but, but I heard snake oil drops temps by 12°C. . .I want some of that. :D

Question: How do you "silver treat" it? Do you add soluble silver compound with a small amount of colloidal silver?

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

Question: How do you "silver treat" it? Do you add soluble silver compound with a small amount of colloidal silver?

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It's done using electrolysis, a constant current DC power source with a magnetic stirrer and a third action to increase quality/stability.

Oh okay so you end up with silver hydroxide/oxide in solution I take it (H+ is reduced, Ag2O forms from side reactions). Wow then 7.3ppm is a pretty high concentration, considering the solubility of silver oxide (well depending on what you call 7.3ppm, by volume, mass, particles)

I just gotta say I like this product, since it utilizes silver really effectively whereas kill coils leave way too much silver metal which is useless.

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

Oh okay so you end up with silver hydroxide/oxide in solution I take it (H+ is reduced, Ag2O forms from side reactions). Wow then 7.3ppm is a pretty high concentration, considering the solubility of silver oxide (well depending on what you call 7.3ppm, by volume, mass, particles)

I just gotta say I like this product, since it utilizes silver really effectively whereas kill coils leave way too much silver metal which is useless.

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Basically it is saturated as heavily as possible without the silver agglomerating and dropping out of solution. I wanted to give the customer the best bang for their buck... being that it is labor intensive to make, I have to price it higher than I'd like, so I figured I'd at least make it as strong as possible.

I really skirt the edge too, about 5% of what I make ends up being throwaway because it crossed over the edge of being too strong, and started to discolor (showing the agglomeration through refraction).

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Originally Posted by damha

If you have primochill pro lrt this is meaningless.

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Why do you say it's meaningless? Please explain more as I'm planning to get one of these.

What about with distill water?

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Originally Posted by marxviper

Why do you say it's meaningless? Please explain more as I'm planning to get one of these.

What about with distill water?

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That tubing has built in biocide... so basically he's saying my product is useless because everyone should buy that particular tubing. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, it's excellent tubing, but there are other good brands of tubing on the market that don't have biocidal properties.

Not to mention which, they say "antimicrobial", but I don't know exactly what that means, or what the tubing kills... I don't even know what chemical they used to give it that property. I do know that silver solution kills EVERYTHING (not to say that pro lrt doesn't)

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Originally Posted by iandh

That tubing has built in biocide... so basically he's saying my product is useless because everyone should buy that particular tubing. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, it's excellent tubing, but there are other good brands of tubing on the market that don't have biocidal properties.

Not to mention which, they say "antimicrobial", but I don't know exactly what that means, or what the tubing kills... I don't even know what chemical they used to give it that property. I do know that silver solution kills EVERYTHING (not to say that pro lrt doesn't)

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Not to mention that we have no idea exactly how long the "Anti-Microbial" will last.

Ian, is it possible that you could use say 1 bottle of Pure Sil, and another of regular distilled water?
i'd estimate my loops to use arounnd 2 litres, and while i'd love some Pure Sil, it's too cost prohibitive to buy 2 bottles, and have them shipped from the US to Australia.

Holy crap 17 bucks? I guess it's hard to do better, since silver salts are really expensive, and doing it with silver electrodes is going to be time intensive like you said.

From a chemistry perspective, you could maybe try to reduce the cost by instead by creating a diluted silver nitrate solution, at about the same concentration of silver ions. If 7.3ppm means 7.3 parts Ag+ per 1000000 parts water by mass or something, then that would be about 7.3g/170g/mol AgNO3 in 10^6g/18g/mol water which is about 7.7x10^-7M. So you could use about a drop (something on the order of 10^-4 or -5 L) 0.01M solution in a liter, should yield about the same concentration. I imagine it would be a lot less time intensive, and since nitrate is a more soluble anion than oxide or hydroxide, there should be less issues with precipitation. At those concentrations you would have to really have a lot of impurities to precipitate a significant amount of silver. Also it would be just as safe since the silver is what's poisonous. More concentrated silver nitrate solutions would probably need some kind of license to ship.

Basically this is what I was trying to get at in the old post a month ago, the killcoils have all this neutral silver metal sitting there doing nothing, so some silver nitrate is going to be a lot more effective. But then it's not as safe, so what I described above would be a pretty good way to implement it.

EDIT: My bad, if it's only silver that concentration should be about 2 times what I wrote.

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

Holy crap 17 bucks? I guess it's hard to do better, since silver salts are really expensive, and doing it with silver electrodes is going to be time intensive like you said.

From a chemistry perspective, you could maybe try to reduce the cost by instead by creating a diluted silver nitrate solution, at about the same concentration of silver ions. If 7.3ppm means 7.3 parts Ag+ per 1000000 parts water by mass or something, then that would be about 7.3g/170g/mol AgNO3 in 10^6g/18g/mol water which is about 7.7x10^-7M. So you could use about a drop (something on the order of 10^-4 or -5 L) 0.01M solution in a liter, should yield about the same concentration. I imagine it would be a lot less time intensive, and since nitrate is a more soluble anion than oxide or hydroxide, there should be less issues with precipitation. At those concentrations you would have to really have a lot of impurities to precipitate a significant amount of silver. Also it would be just as safe since the silver is what's poisonous. More concentrated silver nitrate solutions would probably need some kind of license to ship.

Basically this is what I was trying to get at in the old post a month ago, the killcoils have all this neutral silver metal sitting there doing nothing, so some silver nitrate is going to be a lot more effective. But then it's not as safe, so what I described above would be a pretty good way to implement it.

EDIT: My bad, if it's only silver that concentration should be about 2 times what I wrote.

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Other manufacturers charge $10 a bottle for plain distilled water... this takes two hours per bottle to make.

True, but use of a silver ingot in a closed container is a method tried and proven over thousands of years... and it seems to work just as well today. There may be unreleased potential, and it may not be very efficient/effective, but the important thing is that it is more than effective enough for the intended use.

I've sold something like 1000 killcoils, and haven't heard a single account of growth. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not to mention which, a killcoil is small, cheap, easy to ship, and will last a lifetime.


This coolant is an alternative more for those that don't have access to quality water, or just want a guarantee of what they're getting.

Effective mainly meant cost effective, since instead of using all that silver, you use a tiny fraction of what you would get after dunking the same silver piece into nitric acid and diluting. Just suggesting a more cost effective way to produce your products ;)

Sell more to Petra! He's out of stock and I need some :(

UK needs stock of this!!!

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Originally Posted by Tetrafluorometh

UK needs stock of this!!!

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Exactly! Sell some to UK stores! :)

You should contact Tom @ chilledpc.co.uk I always buy from them and they are great!

I got a question though. Should you clean your loop with "ordinary" distilled water fist. Maybe run the pump for a few minutes and then drain it and fill it up with your water?

I like the biocide piece, but I don't understand what all the fuss is over electrical conductivity? I understand it's one way to measure purity, but what's in there causing the high reading? Is it something that is detrimental to the thermal performance in any way?

Has anyone measured thermal conductivity after being in the loop for a week straight, one month? Can you measure the difference between the purest water and your worst grocery store brand?

From what I understand there are only two properties that matter regarding thermal performance:

Volumetric Heat Capacity - Is the measurement of storage ability
Thermal Conductivity - Is the measurement of transferring heat

How does electrical conductivity relate to thermal performance, and why is it important or even measured?

Just curious why all the fuss on electrical conductivity...I plan to keep buying my horrid grocery store brand until someone convinces me otherwise..:D

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

How does electrical conductivity relate to thermal performance, and why is it important or even measured?

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I cant remember it, but I'm sure there's a name for a relationship between thermal and electrical conductivity, silver is the top thermal and electrical conducter (that is a single metal) with copper comeing a close second on both counts, gold is also way up there, and things that are thermaly insulating (such as mica, as used to be used in oven/kiln windows) are also usualy electraly insulating (such as mica, which used to be used in capacitors) there's definatly something there... A quick wiki surf and here it is The Widermann-Franz Law and it's only suposed to work with metals, so my mica example is a happy coincidance that dosn't apply to the rules (Doh of corse diamond is thermaly hugely conductive and electrally insulative, why didn't my brain remember that) So it's metals only that that law applys to, but what about metals in solution?

I thought electrical conductivity mattered so you are less likely to zap your gear if you get a leak

Actually, I am curious Iandh if you put so much silver into the solution doesn't that make the fluid conductive so if it leaks onto your board you could cause a short to happen?

What's the fuss with them conductivity all the time? When leak occurs you're probably screwed either way.

My poor chemistry and physics knowledge says that when coolant is in contact with any type of metal for prolonged period of
time, like in a loop, it will get conductive due to the ion transfer. I might be wrong though.

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Originally Posted by Erklat

What's the fuss with them conductivity all the time? When leak occurs you're probably screwed either way.

My poor chemistry and physics knowledge says that when coolant is in contact with any type of metal for prolonged period of
time, like in a loop, it will get conductive due to the ion transfer. I might be wrong though.

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I am under the same impression, and thus the reason I scrapped conductivity tests from the Coolant testing I am wrapping up.

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Originally Posted by skinnee

I am under the same impression, and thus the reason I scrapped conductivity tests from the Coolant testing I am wrapping up.

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Thanks, feels better when someone of your XS stature backs you up when
making bold statements :D :ROTF:

I don't disagree that over time all water based fluids will become conductive, my question is whether or not his fluid starts off that way. I haven't had a leak occur after I have leak tested and therefore I am concerned with the conductivity during the initial install phase, not 6 months down the road.

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Originally Posted by Erklat

Thanks, feels better when someone of your XS stature backs you up when
making bold statements :D :ROTF:

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:rofl:

We could both be wrong, so I wouldn't make that statement. :D

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I like the biocide piece, but I don't understand what all the fuss is over electrical conductivity? I understand it's one way to measure purity, but what's in there causing the high reading? Is it something that is detrimental to the thermal performance in any way?

Has anyone measured thermal conductivity after being in the loop for a week straight, one month? Can you measure the difference between the purest water and your worst grocery store brand?

From what I understand there are only two properties that matter regarding thermal performance:

Volumetric Heat Capacity - Is the measurement of storage ability
Thermal Conductivity - Is the measurement of transferring heat

How does electrical conductivity relate to thermal performance, and why is it important or even measured?

Just curious why all the fuss on electrical conductivity...I plan to keep buying my horrid grocery store brand until someone convinces me otherwise..:D

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The initial conductivity measurement determines the purity of the water, and the secondary measurement determines the ion content.

As for horrid grocery store water, it can be either superb, or awful. That's basically one of the services I offer with this product... I'm taking a calibrated purity test meter and ensuring that this water is of a good quality.

Typically distilled water is very pure, but I've gotten some VERY bad batches. I'd say less than 5% of distilled is what I'd consider poor quality. Most is very good.

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Originally Posted by Biffa

I thought electrical conductivity mattered so you are less likely to zap your gear if you get a leak

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It can, but in my case I'm only worried about conductivity for quality control. Pure water ensures there isn't crap to deposit in your loop, and ensures I have a good clean starting point to add ions. That is really all I'm worried about as far as conductivity and this coolant goes.

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Originally Posted by Utnorris

Actually, I am curious Iandh if you put so much silver into the solution doesn't that make the fluid conductive so if it leaks onto your board you could cause a short to happen?

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Originally Posted by Utnorris

I don't disagree that over time all water based fluids will become conductive, my question is whether or not his fluid starts off that way. I haven't had a leak occur after I have leak tested and therefore I am concerned with the conductivity during the initial install phase, not 6 months down the road.

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It's definitely more conductive than distilled, but no more so than any other coolant. Even distilled will pick up contaminants from the loop and almost instantly lose its non conductivity upon installation.

People are very concerned about purity for non-conductivity, but in my case I'm just worried about certifiable quality and loop longevity.

sounds like a silver nanofluid?..how large are your silver colloids?

Can it be recycled for times when you drain your loop for upgrades?

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Originally Posted by Utnorris

Can it be recycled for times when you drain your loop for upgrades?

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My question exactly from this other thread.

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Originally Posted by Erklat

Is it safe to conclude your product might be recycled for more than one use then?

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I doubt that anyone would stop you from reusing it but you gonna lose it's main selling points: purity and silver content.

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Originally Posted by iandh

The initial conductivity measurement determines the purity of the water, and the secondary measurement determines the ion content.

As for horrid grocery store water, it can be either superb, or awful. That's basically one of the services I offer with this product... I'm taking a calibrated purity test meter and ensuring that this water is of a good quality.

Typically distilled water is very pure, but I've gotten some VERY bad batches. I'd say less than 5% of distilled is what I'd consider poor quality. Most is very good.

It can, but in my case I'm only worried about conductivity for quality control. Pure water ensures there isn't crap to deposit in your loop, and ensures I have a good clean starting point to add ions. That is really all I'm worried about as far as conductivity and this coolant goes.

It's definitely more conductive than distilled, but no more so than any other coolant. Even distilled will pick up contaminants from the loop and almost instantly lose its non conductivity upon installation.

People are very concerned about purity for non-conductivity, but in my case I'm just worried about certifiable quality and loop longevity.

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Thanks!

FYI,
According to this:
http://www.smartmeasurement.com/en/w...nductivity.asp

100% Chlorine has a conductivity of 0.

There are quite a few other liquids that have a similar low conductivity level, so conductivity may or may not necessarily measure water purity.

But you obviously want some sort of purity check and conductivity is one measurement that might give you some indication of some minerals etc...:up:

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Originally Posted by relttem

sounds like a silver nanofluid?..how large are your silver colloids?

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he said smaller than the water molecules.

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Thanks!

FYI,
According to this:
http://www.smartmeasurement.com/en/w...nductivity.asp

100% Chlorine has a conductivity of 0.

There are quite a few other liquids that have a similar low conductivity level, so conductivity may or may not necessarily measure water purity.

But you obviously want some sort of purity check and conductivity is one measurement that might give you some indication of some minerals etc...:up:

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Here is the manual for the meter that I use, Hanna Instruments Pure Water Tester, which reads microsiemens/cm.

From what I've read, conductivity in microsiemens is a pretty standard purity benchmark for water, but I agree that it can be anywhere from questionably useful to completely useless on other fluids.

I calibrate every month or two with a certified calibration solution that you can purchase from Hanna, which is why I feel comfortable making the claim that my coolant is of guaranteed purity.

Generally, "good" distilled should measure less than 0.5µS/cm, typically it is around 0.2-0.3µS.



The funny thing is, Grade II ASTM only states that the water is to be purer than 1µS/cm (along with a couple other specs), so in reality, Grade II ASTM water may actually be less pure than distilled from the supermarket. :p:

The difference is that when I buy 5 gallons of ASTM Type II water, I have a guarantee of what I'm getting. When I buy supermarket distilled, it can go anywhere from superb to absurd. Usually though, from my experience, they're of equal quality.



I know this sounds funny, but IMO a superior option to buying my coolant (for people that change their loops regularly and use distilled), is to just fork out the $70 + $15 for meter and calibration solution, then they can be absolutely sure of what they're putting in their loop.

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Originally Posted by relttem

sounds like a silver nanofluid?..how large are your silver colloids?

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An average of 0.002-0.003µm, up to 0.005µm. I haven't had my solution lab tested, but that is based upon a lab test done by someone using identical production methods, and lack of agglomeration vs. measured conductivity. From what I've gathered, as long as all production protocols are followed, the solution is extremely uniform from batch to batch.

If you are using a University see if they have a DLS system (Dynamic Light Scattering). That give an accurate reading of the particle size. We use that. We also used TEM and SEM to look at the particles, but you have to evaporate the sample to use those machines...still, if you get a chance it is pretty neat to look at an SEM/TEM screen.

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Originally Posted by relttem

If you are using a University see if they have a DLS system (Dynamic Light Scattering). That give an accurate reading of the particle size. We use that. We also used TEM and SEM to look at the particles, but you have to evaporate the sample to use those machines...still, if you get a chance it is pretty neat to look at an SEM/TEM screen.

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Afaik the original tests done were with an SEM and some fluid dried on a slide. He also did some additional testing with various production variables to find out what had an effect on particle size, and what didn't. It basically boiled down to current density and stirring, although there were a couple other small things that could have some effect.

I do have some contacts down at APL from my military R&D career, so maybe I'll try and call in a favor for curiosity's sake.

Our problem with the SEM/TEM was that during evaporation anything that was suspended in the fluid will stay suspended until the very end..in our case it was because our particles were/are very close to being neutrally buoyant. That meant that our particles would end up agglomerated together, and it was hard to discern those agglomerated particles from original particle size using the SEM/TEM. But, the DLS uses a liquid sample to get a measurement of particle size and distribution - you get a bell curve of particle size distribution as a result. That suited our needs a lot better. It is pretty easy and super quick...nothing like setting up for a SEM/TEM measurement.

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Originally Posted by iandh

Here is the manual for the meter that I use, Hanna Instruments Pure Water Tester, which reads microsiemens/cm.

From what I've read, conductivity in microsiemens is a pretty standard purity benchmark for water, but I agree that it can be anywhere from questionably useful to completely useless on other fluids.

I calibrate every month or two with a certified calibration solution that you can purchase from Hanna, which is why I feel comfortable making the claim that my coolant is of guaranteed purity.

Generally, "good" distilled should measure less than 0.5µS/cm, typically it is around 0.2-0.3µS.

The funny thing is, Grade II ASTM only states that the water is to be purer than 1µS/cm (along with a couple other specs), so in reality, Grade II ASTM water may actually be less pure than distilled from the supermarket. :p:

The difference is that when I buy 5 gallons of ASTM Type II water, I have a guarantee of what I'm getting. When I buy supermarket distilled, it can go anywhere from superb to absurd. Usually though, from my experience, they're of equal quality.

I know this sounds funny, but IMO a superior option to buying my coolant (for people that change their loops regularly and use distilled), is to just fork out the $70 + $15 for meter and calibration solution, then they can be absolutely sure of what they're putting in their loop.



An average of 0.002-0.003µm, up to 0.005µm. I haven't had my solution lab tested, but that is based upon a lab test done by someone using identical production methods, and lack of agglomeration vs. measured conductivity. From what I've gathered, as long as all production protocols are followed, the solution is extremely uniform from batch to batch.

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Interesting, thanks!

Can you help us chemically challenged folks understand a bit more of what conductivity means for thermal performance.

I did a google search on μS and found some talk about Siemens or something. I chuckled for a bit then realized it was way beyond my understanding. I was hoping I might get some sense as to what this unit of measurement meant, but was at a loss.

What does this whole μS measurement mean? I understand it's for measuring purity, but I don't have a clue about scale. You noted that some grocery store distilled waters were really bad. How does this translate to % of impurity by volume. Better yet, how does it relate to thermal performance if at all?

Do you think the worst of the worst grocery store distilled waters would perform thermally any different than water that measures 100% pure. What about filtered tap water, would it have any thermal disadvantages?

In particular, how much on a common overclocked CPU loop. Would this "BAD DISTILLED" amount to 1 degree, 5 degrees? .000001degrees? loss in cooling.

Watercoolers understand one thing...temperature in degrees...we need a translation please..:D

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Originally Posted by relttem

Our problem with the SEM/TEM was that during evaporation anything that was suspended in the fluid will stay suspended until the very end..in our case it was because our particles were/are very close to being neutrally buoyant. That meant that our particles would end up agglomerated together, and it was hard to discern those agglomerated particles from original particle size using the SEM/TEM. But, the DLS uses a liquid sample to get a measurement of particle size and distribution - you get a bell curve of particle size distribution as a result. That suited our needs a lot better. It is pretty easy and super quick...nothing like setting up for a SEM/TEM measurement.

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I do have some experience with electron micrography, but never with solids from dried solutions. I am actually curious whether he ran into the same issue as you did, and if so, what was done to get around the problem.

I wonder if you used a dilute solution, if it would help avoid agglomeration but still allow for an accurate count. I'm not sure if the silver content is enough where agglomeration after dessication would be an issue.

I'm definitely curious though, I'll probably send out a couple emails tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Interesting, thanks!

Can you help us chemically challenged folks understand a bit more of what conductivity means for thermal performance.

I did a google search on μS and found some talk about Siemens or something. I chuckled for a bit then realized it was way beyond my understanding. I was hoping I might get some sense as to what this unit of measurement meant, but was at a loss.

What does this whole μS measurement mean? I understand it's for measuring purity, but I don't have a clue about scale. You noted that some grocery store distilled waters were really bad. How does this translate to % of impurity by volume. Better yet, how does it relate to thermal performance if at all?

Do you think the worst of the worst grocery store distilled waters would perform thermally any different than water that measures 100% pure. What about filtered tap water, would it have any thermal disadvantages?

In particular, how much on a common overclocked CPU loop. Would this "BAD DISTILLED" amount to 1 degree, 5 degrees? .000001degrees? loss in cooling.

Watercoolers understand one thing...temperature in degrees...we need a translation please..:D

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One Ohm is roughly equal to One Siemen. Since Ohms is a measure of resistance and Siemens is commonly used to measure conductivity, more Ohms means more resistance, but more Siemens means less.

As far as thermal performance, I don't think there is much difference. I suppose there could be, but to me the main advantage of using pure water, is that the purer the water, the less the chance of corrosion. It also eliminates the possibility of mineral deposits inside blocks and radiators.

Conductivity is a good way to measure the ion/particle content of water, but I don't think thermal performance really is affected until you get to extremely high particle contents (comparitively) such as the nano-fluid relttem has been working on.

Just for comparison, and to give a rough idea of what good and bad are, lets call 1μS "pure". The final conductivity of Pure-Sil is around 6μS. Extremely poor quality distilled water can be as high as 50μS or even more (this would be very uncommon, from a bad production batch, etc.). It is rare that distilled water measures over 1μS, and very rare that it measures over 10μS. Tap water or mineral drinking water can go into the 100's of μS. Once you get to that level on conductivity, corrosion can start to be a problem.

As far as change in cooling, I'm pretty sure it would border on unmeasurable. Maybe once you get some really dirty water; in fact, might be a reason to fire up the old test rig there... :D




This is pretty sad (and funny), but the best way to buy good distilled water without having measuring equipment is to look at the label. If the label looks cheap and crappy (basically some off-brand stuff), then chances are, the water inside is cheap and crappy. This isn't a hard rule, as I've bought some off-brand distilled that is even better than name brand stuff.

I've found Sparkletts brand to be consistently good, and Arrowhead is usually good but not as consistent. I've gotten a bad batch of Arrowhead.

The water used for Pure-Sil is ASTM Type II bought in 5 gallons from a chemical supplier, but I buy a lot of distilled for use in other things, so I measure it each time just for kicks.

Thanks!

I dug up a couple of links while trying to educate myself. This one talks about the various water tests:

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/characteristics.html

Sounds like water hardness would be another good one for build up problems. I've heard of it before and apparently not a problem in my area.

This one was also fairly interesting:
http://water.epa.gov/type/rsl/monitoring/vms59.cfm

This latter one does note that conductivity is only good for measuring inorganic solids, organic stuff like oils, etc would lower conductivity.

So if I'm getting this right...electrical conductivity is kind of like PH or water hardness...just one of many tests that are often done on water, but not really related at all to thermal performance.:up:

I'm just slow, when I first saw the term conductivity, I thought "Thermal Conductivity" and more is better:hitself:

I think I'm getting it slowly now..:up:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Thanks!

I dug up a couple of links while trying to educate myself. This one talks about the various water tests:

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/characteristics.html

Sounds like water hardness would be another good one for build up problems. I've heard of it before and apparently not a problem in my area.

This one was also fairly interesting:
http://water.epa.gov/type/rsl/monitoring/vms59.cfm

This latter one does note that conductivity is only good for measuring inorganic solids, organic stuff like oils, etc would lower conductivity.

So if I'm getting this right...electrical conductivity is kind of like PH or water hardness...just one of many tests that are often done on water, but not really related at all to thermal performance.:up:

I'm just slow, when I first saw the term conductivity, I thought "Thermal Conductivity" and more is better:hitself:

I think I'm getting it slowly now..:up:

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Yep, exactly. In this hobby we're so focused on thermal performance that it is naturally the first thing that comes to mind when one reads the word "conductivity". In this case you have to deprogram your natural response to the word; when it comes to water purity, less is more.

if you want the equations that show where thermal conductivity comes into play in a WC system it is contained in the Nusselt number, and that goes into the Dittus-Boelter equation for convective heat transfer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusselt_number

Ummmmm *rasies his hand* is this gonna be on the mid-term.

I just seriously got flashbacks to my high school physic class's And the blonde who use to sit in front of me ;-).

But seriously though i have to Thank you guys for bring this to the next level. Even if i have absolutely no understanding of it.

How do you guarantee the stability of the colloid through prolonged agitation? I would think that over time the sol will aggregate?

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Originally Posted by cegras

How do you guarantee the stability of the colloid through prolonged agitation? I would think that over time the sol will aggregate?

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The person who advised me on this uses it for industrial cooling systems, he has shelf life tested to 12 years, and loop tested to 2 years (that is the longest he has continuously run a loop) and still had no growth or agglomeration (the coolant will appear yellow from reflected light if it agglomerates into larger particles).

I've personally tested for one year and measured only slightly lower conductance, and no visual evidence of agglomeration, so I feel pretty safe saying this stuff is really stable.

Well I for one feel conductivity matters somewhat.

You can survive massive leaks.

I fitted an Aquacomputer SLI Twinconnect the wrong way round on 4 GTX470's while leak testing and flooded the cards and PSU and case.
:slap:

http://shop.aquacomputer.de/images/p...ages/23501.jpg

(Hint anyone fitting these the screws are ever so slightly offset from the inlet/outlet holes on the blocks) :am:

I was there at the time, pulled the plug on the PSU before sparks started to fly but it took a while to get the loop drained enough to uncouple the cards from the rest of the computer. During which time I was removing the 1500W PSU :doh: madly unplugging cables, throwing about 3 rolls of kitchen paper into the case, swearing alot and feeling sick. :shocked:

A few days later after some time to dry off in the linen cupboard and judicious use of a hairdryer everything is none the worse for wear.

Thats just demineralised and silver coil, probably about 250ml

and that's why you put the psu away from the case while leak testing ; ). i bassically did the same thing with my psu away from the case too tho.. so i can't say much hahah.

Is this stuff in stock anywhere atm? or in the near future? I saw u said it would be at Petras, but i think its out of stock now.

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Originally Posted by Monkeyface

Is this stuff in stock anywhere atm? or in the near future? I saw u said it would be at Petras, but i think its out of stock now.

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http://www.frozencpu.com/products/11...tl=g30c103s753

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Originally Posted by Utnorris

Can it be recycled for times when you drain your loop for upgrades?

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Originally Posted by Erklat

My question exactly from this other thread.

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I missed these questions earlier, I don't see any good reason why not, providing you clean your loop thoroughly before the first fill... particularly defluxing the radiator.

The coolant is designed to last for a long time, so as long as you treat it well, I believe it should be quite reusable.