TFC Monsta Pictures and Pressure Drop Testing

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05-30-2009, 01:43 PM
Martinm210

TFC Monsta Pictures and Pressure Drop Testing

Just having some fun with the MONSTA...pictures just don't do this radiator justice. It is HUGE!
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8104/monsta6.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7845/monsta5.jpg

I think my HWlabs 480GTX and TFC 480 are looking a bit skimpy...lol!

Here are a few other random pics. They really go all out in the packaging.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9493/monsta1.jpg

Kudos on the awesome custom foam packaging, it even houses the accessories neatly into their own pockets.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/126/monsta3.jpg

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1443/monsta4.jpg

Still waiting for my testing pump to do thermal stuff, so in the mean time I did the pressure drop testing.

No real surprise here considering the quad thickness 140mm two pass design, but the TFC Monsta is KING OF LOW PRESSURE DROP! It beat every other radiator in this area. It's about half as restrictive as my old MCR320 and about 1/5th as restrictive as the HWlabs 480GTX. This won't amount to huge temperature gains, but it's clearly very very low in restriction and you should not at all be afraid to run multiple radiators in the same loop. It's also comforting to know, your CPU block will have the very highest amount of flow rate you can get.

Very nice!!
First up, here is the fitting I used to test with, a standard 1/2" DD Fatboy Barb.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/530...ingcheckfa.jpg

And for those that like 1/2" Compression fittings, I would recommend these 45 degree fittings. They have a much larger ID at the opening than most barbs and there's plenty of clearance room. Regular 3/4" OD compression fittings won't fit without extensions.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/950...ingchecktf.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/950...ingchecktf.jpg

And this is the actual test in progress. I used household water pressure to feed the test and controlled flow with a standard sink valve. For flow rate I used my King Instruments flow rate meter. For pressure drop I used my Dwyer 477 Digital manometer. I tested pressure drop points right next to the inlet and outlet to eliminate any restriction from tubing, etc. This is the same format I've used for all my pressure drop testing.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/756...statesting.jpg

Here are the detailed results testing at .5GPM increments up to 4.5GPM and using an excel second order poly to produce the trendline.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/365...suredropre.png

And here is the comparison chart....
The TFC Monsta is KING OF LOW RADIATOR PRESSURE DROP!:eek::D
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/111...comparison.png
05-30-2009, 01:55 PM
eRazorzEDGE

great stuff as always, martin.

i'm really curious to see how this 420/360 "quad" thick rad does in comparison to say a 480 "double" thick rad... temp wise.
05-30-2009, 02:04 PM
dsumanik

Wont be long and we will all know, this comparision is inevitable..thanks for the preview Martin I got two of these badboys just waiting to cool my rig...
05-30-2009, 02:10 PM
Garrett

I thought you had retired from testing Martin... but great work as usual :up:
It's a monster rad indeed :D
05-30-2009, 02:15 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrett

I thought you had retired from testing Martin... but great work as usual :up:
It's a monster rad indeed :D

I did...but I couldn't resist a little playing with the new toys while I was down waiting for parts on the other hobbies(yamaha banshee rebuild)..:D

I will do a little thermal testing, but I'm not sure what fans I'll use yet. I have a pump on order and the triebwerk fans I can use, but I don't have any 140mm fans yet or other spare fans I can use.

Thinking I'll mount this beast to the top of my torture rack somehow..it'll go nicely with the two 480s..:D
05-30-2009, 02:54 PM
NaeKuh

martin can u stand one up next to a 480 for a size comparison?

im still debating if its possible to stuff one of these badboys in a pedistool.
05-30-2009, 03:25 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

martin can u stand one up next to a 480 for a size comparison?

im still debating if its possible to stuff one of these badboys in a pedistool.

Sure, here is a few standing next to my TFC 480.:up:

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6959/monstaby4803.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6709/monstaby4801.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5893/monstaby4802.jpg
05-30-2009, 03:30 PM
NaeKuh

thanks martin... yea its too big for the pedistol indeed.
05-30-2009, 03:33 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

thanks martin... yea its too big for the pedistol indeed.

Time to send Ben a sketch of your new custom case you want him to build for ya...:D
05-30-2009, 04:04 PM
DarthBeavis

DD has one of their towers with a monsta installed and signed at their facility ;)
05-30-2009, 04:35 PM
eva2000

wow very nice...HUGE ASS RAD!

i use TFC 480 now but a monster looks good :D
05-30-2009, 06:28 PM
02wrxgt30r

Man that is one big and darn good looking RAD and good to see the great flow characteristics
05-30-2009, 07:34 PM
*|T2D|*PopovS

Thank you for review Martin! This is great info.
05-30-2009, 08:04 PM
skinnee

Its good to finally see some true testing results, thanks Martin! :up:
05-30-2009, 09:13 PM
bluehaze

I love this rad lol The price is crazy but it looks so awesome in person! I swapped out my Magicool Elegant 360 with a Monsta and temps dropped 5c. non scientific test of course just using prime to load cpu for a few hours at max oc highest temp with magicool was 80 highest with Monsta was 75. Going to add a 295 GTX to the loop monday and see what happens.
05-30-2009, 09:40 PM
Shlomo

So, who wants to be the first person to stack one of these?
05-30-2009, 10:39 PM
cx-ray

Thanks for testing!

I think there might be a small error in the PA120.3 pressure drop graph though. Provided the two tests are comparable it looks like in this test you used the results from the PA with EK G3/8 barbs instead of the better performing FatBoy G1/4?

http://martin.skinneelabs.com/Thermo..._3-Review.html

According to the above the PA has a slightly lower pressure than the Monsta.
05-31-2009, 12:00 AM
HESmelaugh

Nice! That rad is really unrestrictive.
05-31-2009, 02:31 AM
G-UNIT91

martinm FTW!!!:YIPPIE:
05-31-2009, 03:18 AM
gOtVoltage

OMG:shocked: Monsta makes a CYNDER BLOCK look small...
05-31-2009, 06:54 AM
ibm390s

nice work martin. :up: the rad looks pretty cool.
05-31-2009, 10:59 AM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by cx-ray

Thanks for testing!

I think there might be a small error in the PA120.3 pressure drop graph though. Provided the two tests are comparable it looks like in this test you used the results from the PA with EK G3/8 barbs instead of the better performing FatBoy G1/4?

http://martin.skinneelabs.com/Thermo..._3-Review.html

I used the native threading 1/2" barb for the curves for each radiator with the exception of the Swiftech rad which I used 5/8" barbs. That's probably closer to what the new G1/4" design will be anyhow. More than anything, just note that these rads are very low in pressure drop, so low that minor things like barb selection can make measureable PD differences.
05-31-2009, 06:19 PM
Martinm210

I had some questions about the tubes and flow path, hopefully this helps give you a sense:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/922...onstatubes.jpg

A typical 120mm double thickness radiator has 12 columns of tubes two rows deep (except the RX series which has three rows).

# Tubes

Typical Slim 120mm radiator = 12 each
Typical Double thickness 120mm radiator = 24 each
Monsta 120/140 Quad thickness = 56 each

This is the main reason it has very low restriction, it has over twice the number of tubes to flow through as a normal double thickness design. These extra tubes are needed both for the 140mm width and also the quad thickness.
05-31-2009, 07:16 PM
defect9

holy. freaking. crap.

that's a lotta tubes
05-31-2009, 08:01 PM
dpokrajac0

That rad is monster.
05-31-2009, 08:03 PM
skinnee

12 FPI? :shrug:
05-31-2009, 08:13 PM
eth0s

Martin:

How about testing it with 3 x 120mm fans in pull orientation for now. That is what most people have anyway, and it would give us a good comparison to the other rads that you've tested in the past.

Also -- have you changed your mind about thinner rads being better as a theoretical concept? Or has the Monsta changed your mind? Those German engineers at TFC obviously seem to think thicker is the way to go, I'm curious to know what you think?

Side Point: Why is stuff from TFC so expensive? High labor and input costs in Germany? Typical tuetonic over-engineering? Or is it just the result of an over-reaching retail mark-up and slick salesmanship? Or a combination of all of the above? [I recently bought a TFC 360 rad, and I like it so far, so I'm not really complaining, I was just wondering what you thought.]
05-31-2009, 08:25 PM
JOCKTHEGLIDE

Yeah the rad is so hyooge man you have to put it outside the case in push/pull config here with 140mm koolance fans with yates shrouds....
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...s/100_7882.jpg
05-31-2009, 09:44 PM
Martinm210
Quote:

Originally Posted by skinnee

12 FPI? :shrug:

Good question, I didn't even check yet. I just did though 72.5 folds on one side over a 15" length or 72.5 X 2 / 15 = about 9.6 FPI

Keep in mind it has the 140mm frontal factor which is 36% more area than a 120mm fan so I'm not sure what to think about folds. We have alot more area, but also more thickness. If air is like water, most restriction occurs at the entrance, so the double thickness probably doesn't amount to double the air restriction. Not sure though..:shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by eth0s

Martin:

How about testing it with 3 x 120mm fans in pull orientation for now. That is what most people have anyway, and it would give us a good comparison to the other rads that you've tested in the past.

Also -- have you changed your mind about thinner rads being better as a theoretical concept? Or has the Monsta changed your mind? Those German engineers at TFC obviously seem to think thicker is the way to go, I'm curious to know what you think?

Side Point: Why is stuff from TFC so expensive? High labor and input costs in Germany? Typical tuetonic over-engineering? Or is it just the result of an over-reaching retail mark-up and slick salesmanship? Or a combination of all of the above? [I recently bought a TFC 360 rad, and I like it so far, so I'm not really complaining, I was just wondering what you thought.]

FANS
I've been researching 140mm fans a little bit, but I'm still not sure what if anything I'll do there.

All I have for fans right now are 120mm. I've got a spare set of straight blade slow speed yates, the UK3's and the two sets of Triebwerk fans. I want to test the Triebwerk fans, but I'm not sure what else. I'd kind of like to do some round with some 140mm fans, but I'm also at a point where I'm retired and don't see the value in spending money on parts just for a test for others if I don't plan to use them later on my own build. The Triebwerk fans are very nice and I'm think I'll probably just use them when I'm done with this test.

THIN VS THICK
I've never thought thinner rads were better from an absolute sense, but they do make the most sense from a low cost/production/materials cost/benefit standpoint. When it comes to performance for just about anything, there's usually a low cost/benefit budget segment followed by some sort of high cost/benefit segment that strives to make very small gains at high prices. This is true for everything from motorsports to watercooling. It's two very distinct approaches to performance.

Single thickness would fall under the low cost/ high benefit category. It gets the most cooling benefit for the least amount of materials cost.

Double thickness or more is taking the latter approach. Extra thickness on the double rads has shown to give some benefit, it's just not double performance as you might expect.

Also keep in mind the Monsta is the 140mm fan factor, that frontal area advantage is something like a 36% increase in frontal area over 120mm fans. Unlike the diminishing returns on extra thickness, the extra frontal area is a big gain. I suspect the quad thickness will squeeze out a few more drops of performance over the double thickness, but the big gain will be in the 140mm larger frontal surface area and that's a pretty big difference.

COST
As far as cost goes, the Monsta for example is a very small quantity item. Something like 400 total made, 350 black. That's pretty much a custom item at that point and you're paying for tooling and fabrication setup cost.

I've had people ask about custom machining a single waterblock, and have heard stories of people walking into machine shops to have a single waterblock machined per their design. Needless to say, they walk away when they get a $1000 price tag. It may only cost $20 worth of machining time if it were some mass produced 5,000 item project, but you just can't get around the high cost of manufacturing when it comes to low volumes. The Monsta is no different, you're pretty much paying for custom fabrication.

Bottom line though, it's the market and customers that ultimately sets what a product is worth. If it's priced too high, it won't sell.

For me, I like the Monsta for many reasons:
- It's the only low FPI 140mm radiator
- It's the only dual format 120mm or 140mm fan radiator
- It's the only quad thickness radiator
- It has a very low pressure drop
- It's one of the most unique radiators out there both from design and quantity produced.
So for me, I enjoy the unique features...it's something different and that's alot of fun for me:up:
05-31-2009, 09:45 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOCKTHEGLIDE

Yeah the rad is so hyooge man you have to put it outside the case in push/pull config here with 140mm koolance fans with yates shrouds....
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...s/100_7882.jpg

How do you like the 140mm Koolance fans? I've been looking at those as something to try, but I'm not sure.
05-31-2009, 10:24 PM
JOCKTHEGLIDE

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

How do you like the 140mm Koolance fans? I've been looking at those as something to try, but I'm not sure.

martin im not a tester like you so hard to say I had some typhoons forgot the rpms on them the 120mm ones on there, but I saw a few clicks of celcisus when I switched over to the 140mm so hard to say man. I personally think (my guestimate) the 140mms are better in a sense it covers more surface air to flow...if that sounds right. LOVE my monsta though even with bad customer service on fesers part its unique in a sense that when you see you cant mistake it for another radiator.
06-01-2009, 03:05 AM
clone38

Martinm you sir have made me a very happy chap as ive had my monsta sitting here for months now not being able to fit it as i still need some parts for my build so now my mind is at ease :)
06-01-2009, 03:32 AM
hmmisee

Man that thing is so huge, its awesome! You lucky son of a gun! :D
That must have cost a pretty penny
06-01-2009, 09:40 PM
Martinm210

Alrighty, I got my pump from Gary today, so I'm set with the tools needed to do a little thermal testing.

Taking requests, this is what I have for fans:

3ea Triebwerk slow speeds
3ea Triebwerk medium speeds
3ea Yate Loon Straight blade slow speed
3ea Ultra Kaze 3000.

I want to at least test 12V on both sets of Triebwerk fans, but other RPM ranges or other fans, I'm opened to requests...:D

I also want to explore some flow rate effects this go around for something a little different. I usually tested at 1.5GPM, but I'd like to see what if any trends I can produce with varied flow rates. At least for one heat load if nothing else.
06-01-2009, 10:04 PM
gOtVoltage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

Alrighty, I got my pump from Gary today, so I'm set with the tools needed to do a little thermal testing.

Taking requests, this is what I have for fans:

3ea Triebwerk slow speeds
3ea Triebwerk medium speeds
3ea Yate Loon Straight blade slow speed
3ea Ultra Kaze 3000.

I want to at least test 12V on both sets of Triebwerk fans, but other RPM ranges or other fans, I'm opened to requests...:D

I also want to explore some flow rate effects this go around for something a little different. I usually tested at 1.5GPM, but I'd like to see what if any trends I can produce with varied flow rates. At least for one heat load if nothing else.

Hehee 4-5gpm:D Kaze 3000 for a mild single loop:wasntme: actually yeah that will work.
06-01-2009, 10:07 PM
HESmelaugh

I'm looking forward to your flowrate-results.
I only did a very brief test of high vs. low flow in a radiator a while back and I didn't see a performance difference. But I can't say that that was any kind of thorough testing. So I'm actually still ignorant about flowrate effects in radiators...
06-02-2009, 12:22 AM
DemonEyez

Quote:

Originally Posted by JOCKTHEGLIDE

Yeah the rad is so hyooge man you have to put it outside the case in push/pull config here with 140mm koolance fans with yates shrouds....

Is it huge indeed, but with the appropiate case it does fit... (barely) :D

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/...517553-030.jpg

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/...183113-980.jpg

Build mine in a Coolermaster Stacker
06-03-2009, 08:32 PM
UNIXgod

I want one so badly. wont fit in a cosmos I'm sure.
06-03-2009, 10:41 PM
JOCKTHEGLIDE

Quote:

Originally Posted by DemonEyez

Is it huge indeed, but with the appropiate case it does fit... (barely) :D

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/...517553-030.jpg

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/...183113-980.jpg

Build mine in a Coolermaster Stacker

now thats a beaut not a MONSTA :rofl::clap:
06-04-2009, 03:07 AM
Lu(ky

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

How do you like the 140mm Koolance fans? I've been looking at those as something to try, but I'm not sure.

Martin I have 3 Koolance 140mm fans you can try for testing, but I need them back in a month or so... I feel you are always helping us out with your knowledge why not help you back... :up: PM if you want me to send them to you for testing..

I have the following 140mm fans Koolance and a evercool with a 140mm to 120 shroud pictured..

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...e/IMG_1472.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...e/IMG_1466.jpg
06-04-2009, 06:17 AM
bluehaze

Whats the model # of those Evercool fans? They would go real nice with my build!
06-04-2009, 06:33 AM
Lu(ky

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehaze

Whats the model # of those Evercool fans? They would go real nice with my build!

Here ya go-----> H E R E

I thought I read somewhere that the more blades tend to do worse? And not to mention only 50 CFM is not all that great, but I was planning on throwing 6 of them on my MONSTA rad for a PUSH/PULL effect with little dBA..
06-04-2009, 10:42 PM
WaterFlex

I`d like to add this perfect, best of the best, rad to my PA! But the cost is huge!
06-05-2009, 04:12 AM
Eddie3dfx

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehaze

Whats the model # of those Evercool fans? They would go real nice with my build!

You don't want fans like that for watercooling. The fins are straight and from all the testing I've seen, all fans with straight fins perform like crap.
06-05-2009, 10:53 AM
bluehaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu(ky

Here ya go-----> H E R E

I thought I read somewhere that the more blades tend to do worse? And not to mention only 50 CFM is not all that great, but I was planning on throwing 6 of them on my MONSTA rad for a PUSH/PULL effect with little dBA..

Yea they look nice, 50cfm is no good though :/ Not many people make high cfm 140mm. I have some yate loons medium speed they are great for 6 bucks each. I think I will pickup some of those Koolance fans to try though
06-05-2009, 02:27 PM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lu(ky

Martin I have 3 Koolance 140mm fans you can try for testing, but I need them back in a month or so... I feel you are always helping us out with your knowledge why not help you back... :up: PM if you want me to send them to you for testing..

I have the following 140mm fans Koolance and a evercool with a 140mm to 120 shroud pictured..

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...e/IMG_1472.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...e/IMG_1466.jpg

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I want to buy some 140's. I'm just trying to decide between the Yates or the Koolance 140's. The Koolance 140's would be better for testing since they run up higher in RPM, but if I decide to run them permanently, I'll be undervolting down to 1000RPM anyhow.

I'm going to order something this weekend, just not sure which ones..:shrug:
06-05-2009, 11:56 PM
affiliate13

Hi Martin,
I dont know if they sell Sharkoon 140mm 1500rpm ones near you but just to give you another option is all. http://www.sharkoon.com/html/produkt.../index_en.html
06-06-2009, 03:04 AM
AndreaBZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

Alrighty, I got my pump from Gary today, so I'm set with the tools needed to do a little thermal testing.

Taking requests, this is what I have for fans:

3ea Triebwerk slow speeds
3ea Triebwerk medium speeds
3ea Yate Loon Straight blade slow speed
3ea Ultra Kaze 3000.

I want to at least test 12V on both sets of Triebwerk fans, but other RPM ranges or other fans, I'm opened to requests...:D

I also want to explore some flow rate effects this go around for something a little different. I usually tested at 1.5GPM, but I'd like to see what if any trends I can produce with varied flow rates. At least for one heat load if nothing else.

The Triebwerks are very interesting fans,
but then ,to be able to compare the performances
of this radiator with the other,you must also to test these fans. :D ( RPM vs CFM ).........
To explore the flow rate effects is another good idea :D
06-06-2009, 03:52 AM
AndreaBZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinm210

Here are the detailed results testing at .5GPM increments up to 4.5GPM and using an excel second order poly to produce the trendline.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/365...suredropre.png

And here is the comparison chart....
The TFC Monsta is KING OF LOW RADIATOR PRESSURE DROP!:eek::D
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/111...comparison.png

Another question:
When you measure GPM Vs PSI,
do you set a particular attention to the position of the manometer?
I think that the position of the manometer both very important to concern very precise data.
Anymore the position of the manometer is correct,
anymore the curve that derives from the data passes near to the point 0-0.
****
The curve (straight line?) of the radiator HW GTX never finishes surprising me.
Why is it so unusual in comparison to the others? :D
06-06-2009, 09:14 AM
Martinm210

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndreaBZ

Another question:
When you measure GPM Vs PSI,
do you set a particular attention to the position of the manometer?
I think that the position of the manometer both very important to concern very precise data.
Anymore the position of the manometer is correct,
anymore the curve that derives from the data passes near to the point 0-0.
****
The curve (straight line?) of the radiator HW GTX never finishes surprising me.
Why is it so unusual in comparison to the others? :D

Regarding the manometer, the only thing that matters is that the inlet and outlet are horizontal to each other (because you're measuring pressure difference the vertical location does not matter). It's probably also a good idea to keep the tubing short as possible. You may get a couple of inches worth of pressure error when the air in the tubes compress with water pressure, but it's negligible (+-.05PSI). More importantly, as long as you test the same way each time (which I do), the relative accuracy is spot on. I just try to make my two pressure measuring points close to the same elevation, this seems to give very repeatable results.

Unlike most thermal testing, pressure drop testing is fairly repeatable. The only thing that starts to matter much is when you start having very low pressure drops...minor things like sample variation and barb selection start to show differences.

I believe the HWlabs 480GTX is fairly linear because the tubes are completely different from the others. The tubes are about half the thickness and possibly thinner material as well. I suspect the linear nature of the pressure drop curve is due to those very thin and flat and restrictive tubes expanding as pressure rises. This tube expansion would allow the tubes to flow more freely and in the end you have a curve that's straightened out. I tested two 480GTX radiators and they were all like this. The very thin tubes are intended for better heat transfer, but they do make it a fair amount more restrictive and apparently the thinner tubes and high restriction also gives the PD curve a flatter shape because they are expanding under those high pressures.

Skinnee got pretty much the same flat shape on the 360 as well here:
http://www.skinneelabs.com/Radiators...-Chart_PSI.jpg
06-19-2009, 06:15 PM
Duh

both specs and performance look great but price is a no brainer.. you could buy 4 MCR320´s with that money