Silver Cascade (2 x 1 HP) with bypass valve

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11-22-2008, 04:15 PM
piotres

Silver Cascade (2 x 1 HP) with bypass valve

Hi

One more cascade with two C-1RN110H5A compressors (1 HP each one) . This time unit is cased, case is powdercoated (color weissaluminium), condensor is big one - 4.8 kW with 2 x 254 mm fans 230V powered. First time I've used bypass valve (made from Castel 1/4' valve) - to make evap's temperature bit higher if that's needed . Rest is "standart" ;).

Specs :

compressors: 2 x C-1RN110H5A
evap: steeper
XV: ALCO TI-HW / captube 0.9 mm
HX: plate HX , 12 plates
condenser: 4.8 Kw, alu-cu, cooled by 2x 254mm/230V fan
refrigerants : R507/R1150
oilseparator : Shine Year automatic
safety : Johnson controls cut-off, Fach 1.5l expansion tank
case : Laser cutted and powder coated case (weissaluminium) 69 x 69 x 54 cm, wheels
others: Bypass valve - Castel handvalve, 4*REFCO panel gauges, ANACONDA shocks absorber on 1st stage suction line, Dixell XR20CX controller (turn on 2nd stage automatically when 1st stage is enought cold), black coated pipes, 350mm fan on back wall, cork sound insulation.

Cascade isn't finished already ... :)

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/1.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/2.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/3.jpg

Case isn't naked from inside :D.

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/4.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/5.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/6.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/7.jpg

Knob's fitting :p:.

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/8.jpg

Bypass is veeery simple but I hope it'll be working .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...ver12btu/9.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/10.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/11.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/12.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/13.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/14.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/15.jpg

In 5*C workshop without insulation...

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/16.jpg

Loaded @260W first try .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/17.jpg

Leak detectors which I've used (not all 3 in same places of course ;)) . I can say Wigam's is the best, also Amasan is very good (not on this photo) .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/18.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/19.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/20.jpg

Big fat insulation on 1st stage :cool:.

Will be continued ...

With Kindest Regards
Peter
11-22-2008, 04:40 PM
s0lid

Damn good looking work once again! :up:
11-22-2008, 05:02 PM
teyber

jesus looking sweet!
11-22-2008, 05:16 PM
runmc

Another nice one Peter. :clap:
All the pictures are not loading for me:(
11-22-2008, 05:18 PM
Lu523

Very nice looking unit. Can't wait to see how it does with a cpu.
11-23-2008, 06:40 AM
Patrickclouds

how should you controll your hotgas bypass? :D
i mean if you are benching you are not able to adjust your temperature.
the rotary will love the hotgas and will die from overheating :D

we did some tests in the last days:

http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...0_img_2669.jpg

http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...ug_cascade.wmv

the hotgas bypass will increase discharge and compressor temp.

in my opinion the best solution ist to do a bypass after the plate hx. install a t fitting and a mgv (magnetic valve) to push the liquid refrigerant in the suction line or the phasesep of the rotary. there it can evaporate, raises suction pressure, cool the rotary and also raises evap temp. your rotary would rather prefer this method ;)

the painting of your copper pipes doesn´t look very proper.
11-23-2008, 08:36 AM
piotres

For painting I don't know what do You mean ? I used paint spray which is not smooth but have "plastic effect" , also pipes on desuperheaters are not covered in 100% becasue of better heat transfer without paint .

About bypass - valve mounted in way which I do will also for sure rise suction pressure . About discharge pressure - IMO it'll be lower when valve will be opened but I need to test it first to be sure :).

With MGV You don't have possibility of tuning flow at all, handvalve allow small regulation . What captube You used after/before MGV in way which You wrote ?

Your way maybe is good but from what I think now only for rotatries, for normal compressors it'll cause floodback.

Regards
Peter
11-23-2008, 09:09 AM
Patrickclouds

i would use a short piece of 2mm captube after the mgv.

you can use a refrigeration controller to controll the mgv. the controller should only be very fast, so you cannot use ptc or ntc sensors. so it doesn´t matter that you cannot controll the mgv manually, because the ref controller does the job automatically ;)

you can install a phase seperator in every unit, so this won´t only work for rotarys with build in phasesep. a normal hermetique or even a rotary compressor doesn´t like to get hot gas from the suction line.
it´s only a hint, but you can make your on experiences.
11-23-2008, 09:33 AM
piotres

well in mine way that won't be hot gas, but I think sth like 25C gas (near to ambient) - gas will be cooled by desuperheated and oilseparator (it's big and cooled by fan as You can see) .

Using MGV and controller is A LOT more complicated than just handvalve . Easier and another way for bypass is just using CPEV feeding evaporator with small amount of gas .

Patrick, please say more about mine painting work on pipes , becasue You've begin this topic .
11-23-2008, 09:57 AM
Patrickclouds

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by piotres

Patrick, please say more about mine painting work on pipes , becasue You've begin this topic .

take a look from the bottom on the pipes, there you can see the cooper.
this is not my taste, but if you like the way it looks it´s ok.
taste differs :D
i wouldn´t paint the pipes an if so i would paint them completely
11-23-2008, 11:07 AM
Magoa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrickclouds

take a look from the bottom on the pipes, there you can see the cooper.
this is not my taste, but if you like the way it looks it´s ok.
taste differs :D
i wouldn´t paint the pipes an if so i would paint them completely

Hmm, it doesnt look that bad imo. Okay there are some parts not 100% painted.
But in the end the whole unit is going to be covered into the case.... :p:

Great work Peter, cant wait to see this beauty next to his brother and sister :D
11-23-2008, 01:27 PM
teyber

patrick i agree with you, but not perfect painting looks 10x better, in a year or two from now, then ugly brown pipes!
11-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Blaster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrickclouds

the rotary will love the hotgas and will die from overheating :D

the hotgas bypass will increase discharge and compressor temp.

Hot gas by pass is used widely in refrigeration and AC.

Rotary compressors are not cooled by suction and are prepared to work at discharge temp.

On topic: Nice cascade! For the antivibration dampner (you call it anaconda lol) to be able to do its job you would need to fix the end side of it.
11-23-2008, 02:27 PM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by teyber

patrick i agree with you, but not perfect painting looks 10x better, in a year or two from now, then ugly brown pipes!

True ;). Color will be same even after 3 years, good idea for people who like shiny pipes is also clear coating .
11-23-2008, 02:34 PM
Sgrios

Quote:

Originally Posted by piotres

True ;). Color will be same even after 3 years, good idea for people who like shiny pipes is also clear coating .

I agree piotres. Another great unit Piotres, your work always impresses me.
11-23-2008, 03:07 PM
[XC] gomeler

Quote:

Originally Posted by piotres

True ;). Color will be same even after 3 years, good idea for people who like shiny pipes is also clear coating .

I actually plan on clear coating the pipes on my upcoming build :up: I don't know if it was a previous build of yours but some European builder had his pipes clear coated and I thought it was amazing :yepp:
11-23-2008, 04:56 PM
teyber

i know piotres has clear coated a couple of his builds
11-24-2008, 11:37 AM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler

I actually plan on clear coating the pipes on my upcoming build :up: I don't know if it was a previous build of yours but some European builder had his pipes clear coated and I thought it was amazing :yepp:

This one ? :p:

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...de_blue/19.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...de_blue/20.jpg

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=199565
11-24-2008, 11:40 AM
Sgrios

When you polished your pipe work for that build piotres, what was your polishing routine?
11-24-2008, 12:36 PM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgrios

When you polished your pipe work for that build piotres, what was your polishing routine?

But in what build - in cascade showed here (silver one) ? well first I had plan to stay them natural cooper ...
11-24-2008, 12:40 PM
Sgrios

The one you posted for gomeler. Looks like you polished the pipes or just the brazed joints, than clear coated?
11-24-2008, 02:12 PM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgrios

The one you posted for gomeler. Looks like you polished the pipes or just the brazed joints, than clear coated?

First I've cleaned brazing points by steel-wire brush, then polish pipes and brazing points together with polishing paste (before that I also polished driers using water sandpaper) - I always make it this way :yepp:.
11-24-2008, 02:23 PM
Sgrios

Quote:

Originally Posted by piotres

First I've cleaned brazing points by steel-wire brush, then polish pipes and brazing points together with polishing paste (before that I also polished driers using water sandpaper) - I always make it this way :yepp:.

Thank you very much piotres. You did such a great job, I really wanted to know your method. :)
11-24-2008, 05:02 PM
SAE

Great build, Peter. I like the case, too. Kind of reminds me of older Lian Li (PC-60 and alike).... :D
Temps do also impress. *mewants*
11-25-2008, 12:14 AM
Nosfer@tu

AMAZING WORK AGAIN m8 :D

When I get THE MONEY im sending them your way for sure :D
11-26-2008, 03:31 AM
SiuL

amazing work nice cascate
11-27-2008, 01:25 PM
piotres

Hi

After first bypass tests I can say it's working just as I've thought - discharge is lower when bypass is open, suction is higher - it can't be another , so I trully don't know Patrick, from where You take this idea that discharge will be higher with valve opened ? I was able to hold sth like -91C@260W load with bypass very little opened (with more opened I seen -76C), while when bypass was off I have had sth like -97C@260W . Nevermind, that're just initial tests .

Regards
Peter
11-27-2008, 02:01 PM
tiborrr

Quote:

Originally Posted by piotres

Hi

After first bypass tests I can say it's working just as I've thought - discharge is lower when bypass is open, suction is higher

That's how it supposed to be. When you open bypass from high side to low side you basically lower the compression ratio. On old sharp's cascade me & moonman currently use (until i charge mine with R1150a) with bypass (oil return basically) fully opened you get around -65°C (~ 7barg HP), with bypass closed around -105°C (~ 14barg HP) - all measurements on cpu idling in Windows.

Good work Peter, love your cascade builds! :up:
11-27-2008, 02:43 PM
Patrickclouds

what is lower? pressure or temperature?
i wrote a few postings ago: "the hotgas bypass will increase discharge and compressor temp"

and i would say, that this is the "normal" reaktion of the circuit.
you increase the suction gas temperature and after compressing it, it should be hotter, than compressing a gas that has a suction gas temperature of -50°C.

our discharge copper pipe was so hot, that you couldn´t realy touch it.
i don´t know the reason for that, but we used a hot gas bypass before desuperheater. and the regulation of the bypass was controlled by the sps that fully opens the mgv (which has a inner diameter of 3mm) so a lot of hotgas will flow through it at once.

you have only opened the valve a little bit and you are using gas at room temperature. so this amount of gas is also cooled by the suctin gas. so all at all your suction temp doesn´t rise a lot.
11-27-2008, 02:48 PM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrickclouds

what is lower? pressure or temperature?
i wrote a few postings ago: "the hotgas bypass will increase discharge and compressor temp"

and i would say, that this is the "normal" reaktion of the circuit.
you increase the suction gas temperature and after compressing it, it should be hotter, than compressing a gas that has a suction gas temperature of -50°C.

our discharge copper pipe was so hot, that you couldn´t realy touch it.
i don´t know the reason for that, but we used a hot gas bypass before desuperheater. and the regulation of the bypass was controlled by the sps that fully opens the mgv (which has a inner diameter of 3mm) so a lot of hotgas will flow through it at once.

you have only opened the valve a little bit and you are using gas at room temperature. so this amount of gas is also cooled by the suctin gas. so all at all your suction temp doesn´t rise a lot.

ok sorry I didn't read well I thought You had been saying about discharge pressure :).
11-27-2008, 02:49 PM
tiborrr

Patrick -> correction here!

Quote:

i wrote a few postings ago: "the hotgas bypass will increase discharge and compressor temp"

It will increase suction temp but it will lower discharge temperature hence lower HP. You should be using desuperheated gas after aux condensor (dshx).

At least from my experiences.
11-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Patrickclouds

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiborrr

Patrick -> correction here!

It will increase suction temp but it will lower discharge temperature hence lower HP. You should be using desuperheated gas after aux condensor (dshx).

At least from my experiences.

yeah you are absolutly right

we were too lazy to braze a new shrader into the filled unit.
so we used the existing for our test. if you take a look at the picture on the previous page you can see, that discharge shrader is before desuperheater and that we used the service port on compressor. so there is no chance that the hot gas from the bypass is cooled by suction gas.
02-27-2009, 04:47 PM
piotres

Hello

Long time no update here, because I met leak problem with this cascade :( (also I've had problems with 2nd stage compressor and now it's swaped for bit bigger one - Sanyo C-RN112H5A which is sth around 12000-13000 BTU).

"First time" cascade was ready in the end of December 2008, I made some load tests and left if stay in mine garage for leak testing (cascade have pressure gauges so static pressure can be checked). After some weeks of testing (test in the begining of February 2009) I notticed sth like 1 bara static pressure drop and problems with load holding. So I decided - that must be tiny leak somewhere and I MUST find it . That seems to be very hard work, becuase before put on insulation I test every connection at least 2 times with leak testing spray and all was fine . So again case umounting, removing insulation, ehhh :( .Again I made test with spray, I remember mine previous problems with leaking straight part of captube, so I sprayed EVERY pipe even staight parts with leak tester - again all seems to be OK :-O .
I decide to umount every part of cascade's 2nd stage and test it in water,under pressure. And I found it ! - leak was again on straight part of captube, after bypass valve, only test under 20+ bara in water bath show it, I test again leaked place with spray and spray didn't show even the smallest bubbles there even (I tried few sprays - Wigam, Wurth, Tectane) !

One is sure - I'll never buy those captubes in future -that's second time when I have leak of straight part of captube (another one was in blue cascade) :mad: . Fuxxx crap I just want to say about those captubes :shakes:.

So I fixed leaked place, changed both driers on 2nd stage, cover pipes again with black pipe, make new insulation for 2nd stage and finally mount case .

Cascade is already packed :) .

Finaly -96*C @ 260W load after 1 hour test :) but warm but seems like it's the best which I can take from this setup . I tried 320+ cm of 0.9mm captube, and finaly it's 280cm of 0.9mm and same result .

Some photos from next part of work :

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/21.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/22.jpg

Making electric instalation (before leak find) .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/23.jpg

Power consumtion of whole unit (when it loaded with 260W) .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/24.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/25.jpg

And that's hell captube .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/26.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/27.jpg

I use almost all pipes new in 2nd stage ...

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/28.jpg

so painting pipes again was a must .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...12btu/idle.jpg

Final unloaded temperature is around -106*C .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/29.jpg

On 260W after more than 1h of test .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/30.jpg

1st stage loaded by 260W load on evaporator .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/31.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/32.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/33.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/34.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/35.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/36.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/37.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/38.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/39.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/40.jpg

Both units are going in one pack :)

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/41.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/42.jpg

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/43.jpg

I prefer to make 100% "idiot-proof" packing :) .

http://www.members.lycos.co.uk/piotr...er12btu/44.jpg

And here is 100% packed .

Best Regards,
Peter
02-27-2009, 06:26 PM
runmc

Bravo mi amigo :up:
02-28-2009, 02:23 AM
Moc

Very good packing job!
02-28-2009, 04:38 AM
0cool

Yes you had got the same leak's problem with my cascade ;)
02-28-2009, 06:35 AM
Evil_AnAnAs

I really need more money, I'd eat noodles for a year to afford this. XD

Great build.
02-28-2009, 09:52 AM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0cool

Yes you had got the same leak's problem with my cascade ;)

You're right 0cool . But with Your unit I have had more luck, because there spray leak detector show the leak, and here only water show the truth :shakes:. That's why that was really hard way to find this :eek:.

Thanks Guys for all comments . :up:

During incoming week I'll upload movie on Youtube showing bypass work :yepp:. I'll paste link here :).

Regards
Peter
02-28-2009, 07:51 PM
Duh

even though I dont understand the technical part of the refrigeration unit I must say yout unit is gorgeous and you packing in very PRO
03-02-2009, 03:45 PM
tiborrr

One of the best jobs I have ever seen lately - both cascade & single-stage aswell as packaging look very industrial like. Top notch! :up:

P.S.: Who is the manufacturer of this cap tube? Is it a 2mm one? What batch (serial numbers) if you still have them?
03-02-2009, 09:02 PM
sjg0

Holy Smokes great!

Customer requested shoes too? lol.
03-03-2009, 02:17 PM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiborrr

One of the best jobs I have ever seen lately - both cascade & single-stage aswell as packaging look very industrial like. Top notch! :up:

P.S.: Who is the manufacturer of this cap tube? Is it a 2mm one? What batch (serial numbers) if you still have them?

Thanks :)

That captube was "no-name" (that was 1.5m captube with 1/4 nuts on both sides , I don't know what diam. it have but looks like much over 2.0mm) I bet it's chineese one :(.
03-08-2009, 01:51 PM
piotres

Hi

MOVIE SHOWING BYPASS IN ACTION :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMo8BakJORk

Sorry for not working photos, I hope that Lycos server will be working again soon :confused: if not ....I have a problem :mad:.

Regards
Peter
03-08-2009, 03:16 PM
Diegis0n

It has a fast reaction, really nice job there :up:

You didn't "open" the valve fully i presume?
03-08-2009, 06:18 PM
sdumper

How much does it fully drop? Did it stop at -96 and how many whats were you loading?
Amazing work!!!
03-09-2009, 01:40 PM
piotres

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdumper

How much does it fully drop? Did it stop at -96 and how many whats were you loading?
Amazing work!!!

Sure, on movie it's very light open, once I open it more and I get around -70C, but valve still wasn't fully opened ;). I test cascade during load with 260W .
03-09-2009, 01:47 PM
tiborrr

Wanna see fast reaction? :) Old sharp's cascade with ball valve bypass (essentially an oil return valve).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TURqnM3kLw