Temperatures in relation to flow-rates. Data on several CPU-Blocks

Hi there.

I just completed a roundup of a handfull of CPU-Waterblocks and since users of this forum were a great help to me, answering many questions about how I should conduct the testing, I want to publish some data here.

Since I'm too lazy to translate the entire article (it's in German), I'll pick out the data that I think you might find to be most interesting.

First, a quick word on testing methods:


Test-rig and Testing

The test-rig consists of an open build with the following hardware:
- Q6600 Prozessor @ 3.2 GHz
- Asus P5E WS Pro Mainboard
- Magicool Slim 360 Copper Radiator (with fans @ 1100rpm)
- Laing DDC 1T+ (Swiftech MCP355) Pumpe with XSPC Reservoir Top
- Corsair HX 620W PSU
- T-Balancer bigNG plus Sensorhub
- 13/10 Masterkleer tubing (that's between 7/16" and 3/8" inner diameter)
- 2x analogue temperature sensors (measuring water temperature)
- 3x digital temperature sensors, measuring ambient temperature below the radiator
- Flowmeter Digmesa FHKUC 70
- Arctic Cooling MX-2

For test-runs and logging, I use the T-Balancer software as well as Everst. The Everest stress test is used to stress the Processor. Each test-run consists of a 45 minute warmup and following 20 "test-window". The logged data from all the external and internal data from those last 20 minutes is then averaged out for results. The temperatures shown are the differences between CPU-Temperature and Water-Temperature.

Why only 3.2GHz on that Q6600?
Unfortunately, I could not push this processor any further. No matter what I did with voltages and FSB/Multiplier fiddling, I couldn't go further than those 3.2GHz and get a stable boot to OS. Guess I got unlucke with this CPU.

Why CPU temperature and not hottest core or all cores averaged?
The CPU-Temperature turned out to be the most reliable. i.e. if I do a test run today and another one tomorrow, without changing blocks, TIM or anything, the CPU-Water temperature will be almost identical for both runs while hottest core-water and all cores averaged-water will deviate ever so slightly. I figured I would simply use the data with the smallest error.


Tested blocks
Here's a list of the tested blocks:
- Swiftech Apogee GTX
- Swiftech Apogee GTZ
- Ybris A.C.S.
- Aqua Computer cuplex XT di
- Aqua Computer cuplex hd
- EK Supreme
- Zern PQ+
- Thermaltake "Kandalf" block

I'm sure you're familiar with most of these. The Zern PQ+ is an austrian made block that might not be known in the US and other parts of the world. Here's a picture of the PQ+:
http://shane.seraph.ch/13.jpg

I also included a block taken from the "Kandalf" case from everyone's favourite LC-manufacturer Thermaltake! :-P
I wanted to see how it measured up against "real" waterblocks.


Restriction

Since I don't have the tools for pressure-drop testing, I measured flowrates instead. Here are the flow-rates of the entire loop with each of the blocks (I hope I got the conversion to GPM right):

http://shane.seraph.ch/Graph4GPM.jpg

As you can see, both Swiftech blocks did really well here. Especially the GTZ was suprisingly un-restrictive considering the micro-structures inside it.

I also measured flowrates running the pump at lower voltages, but the results are unspectacular: The loss of flow-rates with lower voltages is practically linear for each block. Graphs will be provided if anyone wants to see them anyway.


Temperature vs. Flow-Rates

But now for the really interesting stuff: I measured temperatures in relation to flow-rate for each of the blocks in increments of 30 litres per hour (that's about 0.13 GPM). The flow-rates were regulated using a ball-valve in order to factor out the influence of the pump's heat dump. Here are the results:

http://shane.seraph.ch/Graph%203%20new.jpg

On the graph, flow-rate increases from left to right. The steeper a curve, the more benefit comes with increased flow-rates for that particular block. Two things struck me as especially interesting with these results.
1. The EK Supreme, while being very restrictive, still delivered the best temperatures at any flow-rate.
2. The Apogee GTZ goes from bad to great along a very steep curve. I wonder if it delivers better temperatures than the Supreme, given enough flow. I might get an opportunity to test that soon.

Brief conclusions:
- The EK Supreme is very reliable in that it delivers good temperatures almost independantly of flow-rates.
- The Apogee GTZ needs lots of flow, but given that, it performs great. Since it isn't very restrictive, it's not a big difficulty to provide that needed flow either.
- The cuplex hd isn't only slightly cheaper than it's predecessor, the cuplex XT di, it also performs ever so slightly better.


Feedback on this is highly appreciated. If you would like more information and/or pictures, there are two options.

A) You know German and check out the original article (or you don't know German and just browse the pics).
B) You ask for it here. I'll post more data and pictures if there's any demand.

Cheers,
Shane

Nice work thanks!

-sponge

interesting testing there. nice to see that you used more mounts.
However there is one thing to consider. At different voltages a pump will dump different amounts of heat in the loop.

Also the flow rate-temp graph looks a bit weird to me. I would expect the results from different flow rates to be far less than illustrated (it could be because some of the blocks are restrictive though so..)..

Anyway my cpu temps (fuzion v2) are barely affected from turning the pump down. In fact they seem to improve at some point by a small margin when the pump (DDC3.2) runs at slightly below its full rpm. I know its not a rather restrictive block but maybe its a thing to consider

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Giannis86

interesting testing there. nice to see that you used more mounts.
However there is one thing to consider. At different voltages a pump will dump different amounts of heat in the loop.

Also the flow rate-temp graph looks a bit weird to me. I would expect the results from different flow rates to be far less than illustrated (it could be because some of the blocks are restrictive though so..)..

Anyway my cpu temps (fuzion v2) are barely affected from turning the pump down. In fact they seem to improve at some point by a small margin when the pump (DDC3.2) runs at slightly below its full rpm. I know its not a rather restrictive block but maybe its a thing to consider

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180l/h = 1 GPM

the scaling is so good because it starts with such a low flowrate, testing needs to be extended to at least 360 l/h (2 gpm)

Very nice testing results. I like how you varied flow rate with the different blocks to see how it differs on performance. From your testing that Aqua Computer Cuplex HD block is tempting me now. The Ek Supreme did really well, that's great to hear too.

Thanks for posting this and I hope you keep posting your test results.

Thanks for the feedback!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Giannis86

However there is one thing to consider. At different voltages a pump will dump different amounts of heat in the loop.

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Thanks for pointing that out. Very important: I used a ball valve to lower the flow-rates. That way, the pump's heat dump stays the same for all flow-rates tested. I will edit the original post accordingly, since this is a very important factor and needs to be mentioned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by generics_user

180l/h = 1 GPM

the scaling is so good because it starts with such a low flowrate, testing needs to be extended to at least 360 l/h (2 gpm)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

I agree, would have been nice to see a 2gpm comparison. :up:

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After seeing the GTZ's trendline heading for the Supreme's, I want to test with higher flow-rates too. :-)
Though you gotta admit, the differences above 1 GPM are minuscule. There's a bit of a cultural difference going on here, too. In Germany/Europe, having a single loop for the entire system (CPU, MB, GPUs,...) is the norm. Most people don't use very powerful pumps either and the general agreement seems to be that flow-rates above 60 l/h (0.26 GPM) are unnecessary. By those standard, my test-rig is extremely highflow, having a powerful pump with just the CPU and radiator in the same loop.
Here on XS, I often see multi-loop setups and tubing sizes are also generally bigger (no pun intended).

How do I get 2 GPM anyway? Will a dual-Laing do it? I'm hoping that I wont have to replace all the tubing since that's a lot of bother... -.-

Hi HESmelaugh,

Question, I was under the impression that with the hot running GPUs we have today a single loop is just not enough. Especially if you consider crossfire and sli system that are typically volt modded and overclocked. Has there been testing performed in Europe/Germany to support the premise that one loop is sufficient opposed to a dedicated GPU loop? or is it an academic exercise based on flow rate numbers and heat dump calculations. I agree it has come to my attention that the benefit of 1/2 barbs opposed to 3/8 is minuscule. I am new at water cooling and look forward to hearing your perspective.

BTW I took a look at your testing page very nice article though I can't read German :)


-sponge

Hi evilsponge,

There seem to be several questions in there. First: "One loop for whole system?"
If you ask for advice on selecting watercooling components in a German forum, what generally happens is that people will recommend 9x120 Radiators. Examples from MagiCool, Watercool and Aqua Computer.
Since the heat load of a gaming rig is huge nowadays, and everyone here uses single-loop setups, you simply need huge heat-exchange surface to get good temperatures.

Now, I don't know of anyone who tested single-loop vs. dedicated loops and published results, but A) hundreds of people have CPU, GPU and more in one loop and get good temperatures and B) I'm sure the dedicated loop setup gives you better temperatures. Probably not by much, but certainly better.

Quote:

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I agree it has come to my attention that the benefit of 1/2 barbs opposed to 3/8 is minuscule. I am new at water cooling and look forward to hearing your perspective.

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This is a different subject all together. Size of barbs isn't really relevant, but tubing diameter is for flow-rates. Here is an article I wrote, comparing 8mm ID to 12mm ID tubing. I got about 50% more flow with the larger tubing.

I hope I managed to adress your questions with this.

Great to see this data! Although looking at some of those curves, it makes you really wonder what would have happened further to the right...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by generics_user

180l/h = 1 GPM

the scaling is so good because it starts with such a low flowrate, testing needs to be extended to at least 360 l/h (2 gpm)

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Depends on your country, technically. In the US, a gallon=3.78L, so 1gpm~226L/hr. In Canada and UK, the gallon equals something else entirely - over 4L, iirc. But yeah, that's why the the scaling is so impressive.

Do they really get by with only 60lph in Europe? :eek:

i dont know about in germany, but here in the netherlands i have seen a lot of people running high flow systems (im also one of them :D ). I think that you are a bit generalizing there about europe as a whole

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Giannis86

i dont know about in germany, but here in the netherlands i have seen a lot of people running high flow systems (im also one of them :D ). I think that you are a bit generalizing there about europe as a whole

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True. What I should have written is "German speaking Europe" which is Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Outside of that, I have little experience with what people build, since I only know what's going on on German forums. I apologize to anyone who was unjustfully marked as a non-highflow-fanatic. :p:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MpG

Do they really get by with only 60lph in Europe? :eek:

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In German speaking regions, yes. High flowrates just aren't the thing here. For many users in this region, silence seems to have the highest priority. In fact, if you ask about multiple loops on the forums I frequent, you mostly get told that thats pointless/a waste of money/not worth it etc.
I have to say that it's really interesting for me to see this difference between the preferences on the XS-Forums and the ones in German forums.

I don't know where you got that "More then 0.26GPM is unneccesary" but that is a totaly wrong idea to have. Educate the Germans for us :)

Martin has showed repeatedly that the temperature drop drops off heavily after 1GPM but until that point there is HUGE temperature decreases to be had. Look at his site www.martinsliquidlab.com

Well, I guess that also depends on your definition of "huge". But with these tests and my reviews, I do try to show facts as clearly as possible, so that everyone can decide for themselves, how much flow, what size tubing, what pump etc. they want.
And thanks for the link, though I have to tell you I already know martinsliquidlab.com. Dude, do I know it. Martin is the reason I test the way I do. Before I came across his site, I didn't have a clue about running a proper test.

By the way, another thing I still want to improve in my testing is finding a way to make the differences between blocks more apparent. Greater heat-load should do it, but I'm afraid that will have to wait for a test-rig upgrade including a more oc'able CPU. Any other possibilities for making differences between blocks more pronounced are greatly appreciated. :-)

Thanks for the info HESmelaugh. OK after seeing the size of that radiator I can agree one loop would probably work but most people I see around here try to internally mount their water gear that rad looks like it would have to be on the outside of a case

-sponge

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/FlowRateEffects.png



There, you can point all your german naysayers to that :) As you can see the gain from 0.5GPM to 1GPM is over 2 degrees. After 1GPM i'd say its not worth it but its DEFINETLY worth it to have more then 0.26!

Boj, the problem is, they're not using the blocks we use. Most of them are using blocks designed for their flawed thinking.

Well, you can't really say that's true, Waterlogged. For example, the EK Supreme is just as popular here as it is in America (and, apparently, everywhere else in the world). It is true that Swiftech and D-Tek are used less around here, though.
Also, I didn't get a chance yet to test a D-Tek Fuzion V2, but I'm working on getting a sample.

Bojamijams, thanks for those stats. As always, Martin's work is great.

http://translate.google.com/translat...-8&sl=de&tl=en

And there's the translation (sort of). Nice info!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

Well, you can't really say that's true, Waterlogged. For example, the EK Supreme is just as popular here as it is in America (and, apparently, everywhere else in the world). It is true that Swiftech and D-Tek are used less around here, though.
Also, I didn't get a chance yet to test a D-Tek Fuzion V2, but I'm working on getting a sample.

Bojamijams, thanks for those stats. As always, Martin's work is great.

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Ah, didn't realize that. Just sort of figured that with companies like Zern, Heatkiller, Innovatek and some of the others I can't think of ATM, there was very little to no room for anything from outside Germany or the surrounding NW region. My apologies.

Zern and HK do make some neat stuff though. :yepp: I've got an Innovatek G Flow and....I'm not impressed. :down:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lagaaja

http://translate.google.com/translat...-8&sl=de&tl=en

And there's the translation (sort of). Nice info!

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I had a look at this and it made me laugh. Lots.
Verry Engrish. Read the translation at your own risk... :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Ah, didn't realize that. Just sort of figured that with companies like Zern, Heatkiller, Innovatek and some of the others I can't think of ATM, there was very little to no room for anything from outside Germany or the surrounding NW region. My apologies.

Zern and HK do make some neat stuff though. :yepp: I've got an Innovatek G Flow and....I'm not impressed. :down:

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It's true that there are quite a few regional manufacturers, but when it comes to CPU waterblocks, they aren't more popular than international manufacturers. For GPU blocks, Aqua Computer and especially Watercool are very popular here (almost everybody uses full cover blocks, too) and I'm sure you find greater differences there than with CPU cooling.

Innovatek... nobody who knows anything likes them much. They make stuff that is generally somewhere between medicore and awful and charge tons of money for it. :confused:

The reason that American-made coolers are rare in my roundup is simply that it's more difficult for me to find a sponsor for those coolers. Gabe from Swiftech was the only contact here who agreed to sponsor my testing right off the bat. Big thumbs up! :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bojamijams

[IMG]After 1GPM i'd say its not worth it but its DEFINETLY worth it to have more then 0.26!

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so lets see.

After 1gpm to 3gpm, which is probably less then what im running.

I get:

.76 + .44 + .21 + .21 + X

= 2.5C + X(being how many more gpm i am above)

Oh wait... Bojam, but is done on a D-tek, which isnt pressure senstive as the EK.

Meaning i will most likely pull BETTER then what martin tested.

*looking again*

Yeah sorry to pop your bubble, but with that much gain, and this forum being XS and all, my RD-30 and dual DDC setup stays. :rofl:

Haha point taken. I was just giving my example in 'german terms'

This really makes me want to push the flowrates and do some more testing.

Can someone point me to something like a "how to maximize flow-rates" guide? Maybe some examples of how to set up a loop with two pumps for maximum effect? This would also be great to know since I'm going to test Dual-Laing tops soon and would like to compare them to other loop setups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

This really makes me want to push the flowrates and do some more testing.

Can someone point me to something like a "how to maximize flow-rates" guide? Maybe some examples of how to set up a loop with two pumps for maximum effect? This would also be great to know since I'm going to test Dual-Laing tops soon and would like to compare them to other loop setups.

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i hope you are also aware on the EK testing, that the block is VERY VERY tempermental. :rofl:
Has a worse attitude then the girl representing my avatar.

meaning it acts differently each time you rotate the block 90 degree's.

Thanks HESmelaugh! Great post!

great testing... i also have the supreme beating that gtz....

Great post HESmelaugh. I enjoy these types of threads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by generics_user

180l/h = 1 GPM

the scaling is so good because it starts with such a low flowrate, testing needs to be extended to at least 360 l/h (2 gpm)

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1 liter = 0.264172052 US gallons

180 l/h = 3 l/m

3 l/m = .79 GPM

So, 360l/h is 1.58GPM.

Your tests top out at 210l/h or 0.924 GPM...good tests for the market you're in. Thanks for sharing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

How do I get 2 GPM anyway? Will a dual-Laing do it? I'm hoping that I wont have to replace all the tubing since that's a lot of bother... -.-

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You use an Iwaki, duh!

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Originally Posted by majestik

You use an Iwaki, duh!

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http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_0658.jpg

its big tho

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...a/IMG_0661.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

I thought about posting that also, then realized he lives in Germany and would more than likely be revoked of his citizenship and forceably evicted from his country...:ROTF: :ROTF: :ROTF:

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:rofl:

the two countries cant even agree on cars. :rofl:

Exemplary testing, I really like the flow rate relation work...that's a huge undertaking and extremely valuable information. AWESOME!!!!!!!!!:clap::clap:

You guys are crazy. :-)

The strongest pump I can find in local watercooling shops is the Laing D5 Vario. Those other monstrosities are from gardening-sections in DIY-stores, I assume?
A package containing a second MCP355 is on it's way and I'll see how far I can take flow-rates with that. If I don't quite reach a gazillion litres per second, or whatever 3 GPM converts to, I'll consider further options.

Thanks for the positive feedback everyone!

If you can hit 475-485 l/h that is a right around the 2GPM mark. There is really no reason to go above 2 GPM, the only thing you get over 2 GPM is diminishing returns and more heat dump from the pump. I'm not certain at which point the heat dump starts netting losses, something I have been wanting to test for some time now...might just have to do that sooner than later.

Ok, so approximately 500 l/h would be the goal. With 253 l/h being the highest flow I got in my current loop (with the Apogee GTX), that means I would need to more than double the flow to still have enough when the EK Supreme is in the loop.
I'll have to redo the loop with fatter (and shorter, if possible) tubing. But it might just be achievable. So far, I'm planning to test the Supreme vs. the Apogee GTZ at very high flowrates. Make that very high flow-rates in German terms/barely adequate flow-rates for XS.
Should I also test different orientations with the EK Supreme? NaeKuh pointed out, that it apparently makes a difference. The Apogee GTZ has instructions on what the optimal orientation is and just out of curiosity, I tried a mount with it 90° rotated and really did see higher temps. But for the EK Supreme, I didn't find any specifications on how to mount it. I had it mounted like this:
http://shane.seraph.ch/64b.jpg

If orientation-testing has already been done extensively with the EK Supreme, I don't see the need to redo this. But if optimal orientation is something we're still not sure about, I'll gladly do some testing for that too.

By the way: Are those Iwaki pumps not annoyingly loud?

MMM supreme... :) Yes it's true the supreme give different result per 90 deg rotation> I don't know why...

-sponge

From what I hear around here HES, is that no two EK supremes are the same. Which is a strange issue in itself, but just because someone rotated it 90deg and got better temps doesnt' you will. You might have the better temps if you rotate 270.. or 180.. or 'normal'.. really you're gonna have to 4 tests and see which is best if you want to be REALLY thorough.

Hmmm... are we talking about significant differences here? Like, 0.5° or more? If we are, I think it's definetely worth testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

Hmmm... are we talking about significant differences here? Like, 0.5° or more? If we are, I think it's definetely worth testing.

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Yes it is...try it.

I tested one EK that liked the inlet on the left side, and another that liked it on the right side, but both preferred the nozzle alignment to match the core orientation as you have tested already.

I would just try one or two mounts 180 degrees from your current configuration and see which is better. If they are the same I wouldn't worry about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Yes it is...try it.

I tested one EK that liked the inlet on the left side, and another that liked it on the right side, but both preferred the nozzle alignment to match the core orientation as you have tested already.

I would just try one or two mounts 180 degrees from your current configuration and see which is better. If they are the same I wouldn't worry about it.

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you have also tested ACS, it's true?:eek:;)

my friends they don't believe it

[x] Check different orientations with EK Supreme. :-)

Thanks for the input, Martin.

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Originally Posted by G-UNIT91

you have also tested ACS, it's true?:eek:;)

my friends they don't believe it

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up:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

[x] Check different orientations with EK Supreme. :-)

Thanks for the input, Martin.

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:rofl:

im the one that told martin and, the entire forum for that matter, on the EK orientation, and made him and everyone else go OMGWTFBBQ

:rofl:

HESmelaugh

excellent job...what about this setup?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5...5/P1010760.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G-UNIT91

you have also tested ACS, it's true?:eek:;)

my friends they don't believe it

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The Ybris A.C.S.? Yes, it's in the roundup. Black trendline on the graph. Here are the links to two pages with lot's of pictures showing that block:

Page 1

Page 2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hondacity

HESmelaugh

excellent job...what about this setup?

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Interesting. A bit confusing, though. Am I seeing this correctly: The first pump with the XSPC Res top send water directly to the second pump with the "normal" XSPC top, and from there, the water goes through the entire loop? Do you know what your flow-rate is in that setup?
I really like the look of it, and would love to see some more pics! :-)

EDIT: now I just saw a third pump in the background! Now I'm really confused. So is it Pump #1 with Res -> Pump #2 with Res -> Pump #3 with XSPC top -> Radiator #1 -> Radiator #2 -> System?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

The Ybris A.C.S.? Yes, it's in the roundup. Black trendline on the graph. Here are the links to two pages with lot's of pictures showing that block:

Page 1

Page 2

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I said to Martin ....:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

:rofl:

im the one that told martin and, the entire forum for that matter, on the EK orientation, and made him and everyone else go OMGWTFBBQ

:rofl:

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Thanks for the tip, NaeKuh, in that case!
Didn't mean to discredit the source, just didn't know the source...

Cheers,
Shane

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

The Ybris A.C.S.? Yes, it's in the roundup. Black trendline on the graph. Here are the links to two pages with lot's of pictures showing that block:

Page 1

Page 2




Interesting. A bit confusing, though. Am I seeing this correctly: The first pump with the XSPC Res top send water directly to the second pump with the "normal" XSPC top, and from there, the water goes through the entire loop? Do you know what your flow-rate is in that setup?
I really like the look of it, and would love to see some more pics! :-)

EDIT: now I just saw a third pump in the background! Now I'm really confused. So is it Pump #1 with Res -> Pump #2 with Res -> Pump #3 with XSPC top -> Radiator #1 -> Radiator #2 -> System?

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you are correct...

what was your room temp at that time? and are the temps measured on cpu idle?

The temperatures shown are the difference calculated from CPU-Temperature minus Water-Temperautre.
CPU-Temperatures are under full load (Everest stress test), measured and averaged out during a 20 minute time frame, after a 45 minute warmup.

The ambient temperature (more precisely the temperature of the air moving through the radiator) was between 21° Celcius and 22.55° Celcius during the test runs.

Hope this answers your questions. :-)

Quote:

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Laing DDC 1T+ (Swiftech MCP355)

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I am confused, isn't the 1T the MCP350.
The Laing DDC-1 plus is the MCP355 innit?

Or is this a regional thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spankyfart

I am confused, isn't the 1T the MCP350.
The Laing DDC-1 plus is the MCP355 innit?

Or is this a regional thing.

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I thought it was:
MCP350 = DDC-1T
MCP355 = DDC-1T+

But I'm not sure. Memorizing cryptic product descriptions isn't one of my strengths. :-)



I got an Update for you guys:

As promised, I wanted to see if I could reach those 2 GPM everyone goes on about here. ;-)
So, I installed one of these:
http://shane.seraph.ch/154.jpg

I also tightened up the loop as far as I could, what with the ball valve, temperature-sensor and flowmeter needing to be in there. Result:
http://shane.seraph.ch/Highflow2.jpg


And what did this effort and a dual-pump top with two MCP355 achieve?



* drumroll *



... about 1.2 GPM. :(

Still far from 2 GPM.
I'll post the data from the test-run anyway. Tomorrow. I'll have to make a pretty graph or something, first.

Who makes that, and where did you get it? Every double pump top I've seen has always had one DDC on the bottom and one on the top, not side by side like that. I'm currently trying to figure out how to cram my dual pumps into my case (which is very quickly running out of usable room), connect them to each other, and not kink my tubing all at the same time. One of those would go a long way towards fixing that problem (although I'd want it made out of Delrin or similar, I don't want any acrylic in my build).

It's made by Watercool, a German company. I got it from Aquatuning, a German online store. No idea if or where it's available internationally. The acrylic version is the only one available, so far.

Link to product

wow does that mean two 355s with reservoir tops in series won't reach 2gpm?

adding a second ddc increases head pressure far more than in it increases the flow rate

Giannis

does it really increase head pressure? where do you base your statement?

Just out of interest, try them in parallel. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hondacity

wow does that mean two 355s with reservoir tops in series won't reach 2gpm?

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That dual top might not be the best candidate for the testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skinnee

That dual top might not be the best candidate for the testing.

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its not? what is a good combination for 2gpm other than the iwaki? the iwakis are just too expensive...

take a look at Martin's handy dandy Flowrate Estimator...only a select few tops on 2 mcp355's in series don't reach the 2+GPM mark.

Disclaimer: "handy dandy" is not a term endorsed by Martin. Purely the opinion of the poster. :D

have you tried it with two res tops on the 355 + ek supreme + 2 rads?

its says 2.09gpm

but i dunno if thats tested or not..its theoretical..but not proven...

thats why i'm suggesting to Hes to try it

what do you suggest other than the iwaki?

First of all, here's the data:

I measured temperatures with the same methods described in above posts. The setup reached a maximum of 1.19 GPM and I also measured temperatures in this same setup at 0.92 GPM and 0.66 GPM.

http://shane.seraph.ch/GraphHighflow.jpg

Clearly, the downward-trend in temperatures continues with increased flow-rates. Between 0.66 GPM and 1.19 GPM, temperatures dropped by about half a degree. Also very interesting to see: The added benefit of higher flowrates is greater than the drawback of an extra pump dumping it's heat into the loop - the temperatures at 1.19 GPM were the best I'd seen in all of the test-runs.


Considering further testing:
The loop pictured above will be disassembled today, since there is other testing, that needs to be done. I'm testing some pump tops, among them one or two that even you at XS might have not seen yet. :-)
After those tests, I might find some time to chase 2 GPM again.

Question: If I use two pumps with res tops in a loop, won't one of the reservoirs overflow?

yes the second will overflow...i used teflon tape to seal my second pump..i bought the non res top so it won't overflow for the third pump...if you look at the picture i posted

Thanks for the info. I might just try to use one res top and one non res top, then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

Just put the pump with res top before the regular top pump, it will work fine...:up:

Pump (res top) > Pump (regular top)

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have you tried this at all? even with martins flow calculator your suggestion fails 1.8gpm :down:

regular top = stock top

lol

It's true, we Germans don't give a rat's ass about flow rates. And why should we, spending a lot of money for like 2-3C less with lots of additional noise is totally not worth it.
I run 2 EK Supremes, 2 big Rads, the HDDs and raidcon with around 60cm flow height and ~3m tubing length on a single Aquastream XT pump in one loop, that's probably not even 0,2gpm. Still I don't get more than 50C Coretemp on either CPU :p:

You want better temps? Run phase.. that's what I do, anyway. Water is for good yet silent cooling, it's not about 2GPM+ flowrates.

You people will realize that soon enough :p:

Oh yeah, really nice testing there.

The same people who insist on 600/700/800 lb. ft. of torque and 500/600 hp in a family passenger car, or even station wagon/estate, prefer 0.2 GPM pumps lol How strange this world is. :yepp:

@HondaCity: dude, that second reservoir is robbing your flow rate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanY

The same people who insist on 600/700/800 lb. ft. of torque and 500/600 hp in a family passenger car, or even station wagon/estate, prefer 0.2 GPM pumps lol How strange this world is. :yepp:

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I gotta follow what my customers demand.. and they demand absolutely quiet rigs that eat close to 1KW. They want them to perform better than anything else on the market, while being quieter than your average office PC.

They don't care whether the CPU temp is 56C or 61C, so neither do I for water ;)

jcool: I've got to agree with you. Look at the last graph that HESmelaugh posted:
http://shane.seraph.ch/GraphHighflow.jpg

Nearly double the flow rate lost 0.5C. That's only 1/50th, or 0.02%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

I thought it was:
MCP350 = DDC-1T
MCP355 = DDC-1T+

But I'm not sure. Memorizing cryptic product descriptions isn't one of my strengths. :-)



I got an Update for you guys:

As promised, I wanted to see if I could reach those 2 GPM everyone goes on about here. ;-)
So, I installed one of these:
http://shane.seraph.ch/154.jpg

I also tightened up the loop as far as I could, what with the ball valve, temperature-sensor and flowmeter needing to be in there. Result:
http://shane.seraph.ch/Highflow2.jpg


And what did this effort and a dual-pump top with two MCP355 achieve?



* drumroll *



... about 1.2 GPM. :(

Still far from 2 GPM.
I'll post the data from the test-run anyway. Tomorrow. I'll have to make a pretty graph or something, first.

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You must try the SANSO PDH-054...:up::eek:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanY

@HondaCity: dude, that second reservoir is robbing your flow rate.

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it is? explain please :confused:

..sorry i don't have a flow meter stuck to it right now..and i have three pumps in series...lol..and its freaking cold outside... :rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hondacity

it is? explain please :confused:

..sorry i don't have a flow meter stuck to it right now..and i have three pumps in series...lol..and its freaking cold outside... :rofl:

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Buddy,

Look I don't own XSPC reservoir tops, or for that matter, any XSPC tops. I'm not into scientific explanations or scientific data. I'm no engineer by training and honestly, all that lab data bores me to tears and couldn't disinterest me any greater. I'm the antithesis of Martin.

Generally, when I see graphs and charts, I go look at a different discussion. Is it because I don't understand graphs and charts? Not exactly. Years of applied math/maths took care of that. Its just that I have no interest in those.

What I do know is that I have tried multiple reservoirs in a loop before using small MCRESes. Why did I even do that? I don't know. Bored I guess.

The pertinent message here is that it does affect your flow rates, and quite considerably more than you can imagine. The turbulence inside a reservoir itself dampens flow rates.

I don't doubt Martin's recommendations and the XSPC reservoir top may be the very best top right now for the DDCs. However, I do know that Martin was referring to a single reservoir top in isolation. He wasn't envisioning the scenario where two are used in series.

Since money is not a great issue for you, I hgighly recommend that you purchase a regular XSPC top and use that in conjunction with the XSPC reservoir top.

Just a note. Just because I don't offer data or scientific explanations doesn't mean that I don't know what I am talking about, after all these years of observing others and trying things out.

As for me, I would never buy a XSPC top of any nature because its acrylic, but that's just me. It would give me a terminal heart attack. Shouldn't influence you in the least bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by yngndrw

jcool: I've got to agree with you. Look at the last graph that HESmelaugh posted:


Nearly double the flow rate lost 0.5C. That's only 1/50th, or 0.02%.

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I was wondering if it would be neatly exponential. Something like 0.5 deg less every time you double the flow-rates. But while you gain lots of cooling performance doubling a very low flowrate, it looks like it's not even going to be 0.5 for each doubling in higher flowrates... Can't tell for sure, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanY

The same people who insist on 600/700/800 lb. ft. of torque and 500/600 hp in a family passenger car, or even station wagon/estate, prefer 0.2 GPM pumps lol How strange this world is. :yepp:

---

Yeah, that is kinda weird. But the whole thing doesn't make sense anyway. I always find it amusing, when someone on a (usually German) forum goes: "what's the point in getting a better pump? you hardly get better temperatures at all!". We're talking about liquid cooling PCs, it's not like spendign piles of money to get a nice, shiny liquid-cooling setup in your PC is the most significant thing you can do in your life. It's just for fun. So what, if someone wants flowrates that put the Niagra Falls to shame?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G-UNIT91

You must try the SANSO PDH-054...:up::eek:

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Really? In the shop where I found it, it's rated for 360l/h. The MCP355 is rated for 600l/h... I haven't ever tried the Sanso, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanY

Buddy,

Look I don't own XSPC reservoir tops, or for that matter, any XSPC tops. I'm not into scientific explanations or scientific data. I'm no engineer by training and honestly, all that lab data bores me to tears and couldn't disinterest me any greater. I'm the antithesis of Martin.

Generally, when I see graphs and charts, I go look at a different discussion. Is it because I don't understand graphs and charts? Not exactly. Years of applied math/maths took care of that. Its just that I have no interest in those.

What I do know is that I have tried multiple reservoirs in a loop before using small MCRESes. Why did I even do that? I don't know. Bored I guess.

The pertinent message here is that it does affect your flow rates, and quite considerably more than you can imagine. The turbulence inside a reservoir itself dampens flow rates.

I don't doubt Martin's recommendations and the XSPC reservoir top may be the very best top right now for the DDCs. However, I do know that Martin was referring to a single reservoir top in isolation. He wasn't envisioning the scenario where two are used in series.

Since money is not a great issue for you, I hgighly recommend that you purchase a regular XSPC top and use that in conjunction with the XSPC reservoir top.

Just a note. Just because I don't offer data or scientific explanations doesn't mean that I don't know what I am talking about, after all these years of observing others and trying things out.

As for me, I would never buy a XSPC top of any nature because its acrylic, but that's just me. It would give me a terminal heart attack. Shouldn't influence you in the least bit.

---

i don't see any turbulence in the second pump(acrylic makes me look at the flow-a good thing)...the xspc reservoir top is great...the inlet to the second pump just goes straight to the impeller...which i is see as great..if i could just buy a radar to check the speed of the flow...lol but thanks for your input.. the thing that bothers me is the second pump does overflow..which shouldn't happen if they are at the same speed..i think this is the bad thing ???????????????????????

yeah acrylic..i emailed xspc what the lowest temperatures this stuff can take...i haven't heard from them yet..

yeah the microres ...mine leaks..lol..refill the damn thing every day...(fixed it..the barb didn't have an o-ring) :up:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HESmelaugh

I was wondering if it would be neatly exponential. Something like 0.5 deg less every time you double the flow-rates. But while you gain lots of cooling performance doubling a very low flowrate, it looks like it's not even going to be 0.5 for each doubling in higher flowrates... Can't tell for sure, though.



Yeah, that is kinda weird. But the whole thing doesn't make sense anyway. I always find it amusing, when someone on a (usually German) forum goes: "what's the point in getting a better pump? you hardly get better temperatures at all!". We're talking about liquid cooling PCs, it's not like spendign piles of money to get a nice, shiny liquid-cooling setup in your PC is the most significant thing you can do in your life. It's just for fun. So what, if someone wants flowrates that put the Niagra Falls to shame?



Really? In the shop where I found it, it's rated for 360l/h. The MCP355 is rated for 600l/h... I haven't ever tried the Sanso, though.

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360l/h is refered of firstly 3m of prevalence....

this pump do 9m of prevalence......mcpc355, 4,7m....:D

You can put 4 EK Supreme in series...:eek:;):D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by G-UNIT91

you have also tested ACS, it's true?:eek:;)

my friends they don't believe it

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No I havn't sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martinm210

No I havn't sorry.

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:(but you've said that you had ..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jcool

It's true, we Germans don't give a rat's ass about flow rates. And why should we, spending a lot of money for like 2-3C less with lots of additional noise is totally not worth it.
I run 2 EK Supremes, 2 big Rads, the HDDs and raidcon with around 60cm flow height and ~3m tubing length on a single Aquastream XT pump in one loop, that's probably not even 0,2gpm. Still I don't get more than 50C Coretemp on either CPU :p:

You want better temps? Run phase.. that's what I do, anyway. Water is for good yet silent cooling, it's not about 2GPM+ flowrates.

You people will realize that soon enough :p:

Oh yeah, really nice testing there.

---

:up:

@HESmelaugh
:clap: Grüße! Keep on low-flow!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by G-UNIT91

:(but you've said that you had ..

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No he didn't. I believe that what you understood as him saying yes was actually him talking with HESmelaugh about the EK Supreme orientation.

What I do not understand at all:
For 1-2 K you guys are ready to accept a lot of additional noise of your system. If you do not worry about noise at all, why are you still using standard liquid cooling systems? Chillers would be the better choice I guess.

Like HESmelaugh stated most of the users here in Germany / Austria / Switzerland want to have a cold AND silent system. So chillers (if not in the cellar) are out of the question ...
If I read in Martin´s welldone reviews (thank you!) of "low" fans with 1350 rpm (my fans run with 600 rpm at the most) and I see those recommended pumps I worry about how you guys are able to suffer :eek:

Am I wrong?

p.s.: the most german cars with more than 400 HP are only built for the US-market ... :p:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

No he didn't. I believe that what you understood as him saying yes was actually him talking with HESmelaugh about the EK Supreme orientation.

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I was referring to a Martin's PM ...