Project: make it a double

Hi!

Some of you may remember the post I started about using car radiators. Since the beginning of the thread some time has passed so if anyone thought I had just given up the project after long and apparently useless discussion I and apologize for the delay. I have been extremely busy at university and most of the time I give top priority to anything which could benefit me on the long run as far as my education and career is concerned. I do however take pride in finishing what I begin so here I am.

Project name: Make it a double!

introduction

You may remember that I had chosen a 140 l/min 10m head pump. It could have been the perfect solution but it had one fatal flaw. It was built for temporary uses and not continuous as mag pumps are. My first experiments ended in tragedy. The pump literally burned down during a 2 days and 2 nights stress test in a small service bathroom, recirculating water under no constriction from a tub and back into the tub. The chassis turned so hot the circuitry was damaged and the capacitor somehow leaked. I understood my mistake and looked for a mag. driven pump. I will make a long story short: I went for iwaki pumps. The model is the MD-30RZ but for this project I needed muscle so I bought 2 for $40 + shipping. Powered with a step down converter I hooked them in series to provide a whopping 16m head pressure.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1894.jpg

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1895.jpg

Most of you will almost immediately point out that the pump has a massive heat dump. True but I have a solution. Loving symmetry I installed 2 AUDI TT radiators in series to provide for enough cooling for my rig and the pumps.

The loop works as follows: pump1  pump2  radiator 1  radiator 2  ek supreme

The radiators

The Radiator are both 44x 66 cm. However they are not identical. The one which is mounted towards the exterior and features an impressive fin and pipe density. The number of fins makes it almost impossible to mount any normal type of fan array in order to achieve adequate cooling at a reasonable noise level. Thinking about this I chose to add a second radiator. This specific model was designed to provide cooling for less performing audi tts so it features larger pipes and less fin density. This was ideal to achieve maximum cooling efficiency whilst providing for some degree of “flow through” air movement. Both radiators are sandwiched as can be seen in the photograph and sufficient space is left between them for air to rise and dissipate heat by convection.


http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/948/20833693sc3.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9...78871b5080.jpg

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8666/12114964sa1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8...b840f45386.jpg


http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1889.jpg

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1892.jpg

Heat dump

My calculations were fairly simple. A single radiator might be seen as a sheet of metal. With no active cooling it is essentially a plate. Therefore I can confidently say that radiating surface is almost equal to 2,904cm^2 take two radiators and we have 4 surfaces which makes the total surface area equal to 11,616cm^2. Let us say that we have an overall 80% efficiency of these 4 surfaces and we get an equivalent radiating surface of about 9292,8cm^2. Now let us assume that I have a total heat dump of 600w (way off considering that I only have 80w of pump heat and 200w at most of cpu heat). This means that I have 0,065w per square cm to dissipate. Not difficult to achieve under passive conditions!

Setup

The outmost radiator will dissipate the initial heat from the cpu and pumps. When the water is done travelling through the radiator then it will be fed in the second radiator which will not provide as much restriction and help shave of the residual heat. From there the coolant will travel to the ek supreme and back to the pumps. Tubing is ½ inch on ½ barbs. Equivalent barbs are used on all connections so as to avoid changes in pressure within the tubing.


The coolant is a mixture of distilled + paraflu radiator coolant (80:1 ratio should be enough to prevent corrosion).

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1902.jpg


here you can see the realy switch connected to my fan plugs on the mobo. the blue LED signals nominal activity.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1903.jpg

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1900.jpg


Temperatures

load @ stock 1.24v

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o.../loadstock.jpg

and load @ 3.6 ghz 1.6V!!!

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...ad36ghz16v.jpg

Observations:

1.the Ek supreme will restrict flow. No big surprise there. What comes as a surprise is that the low pressure part of the loop (suction from the ek to the pumps) will collapse the tubing. No matter how thick the tubing will visibly collapse under the negative pressure. The stronger the pumps the stronger the negative pressure. It does not hinder performance but it still is a nasty surprise given that it is all stress being applied to the tubing. I use clamps to keep the tubing in shape.


Hope you enjoy!

P.s. important edits

1) TIM: coolaboratory metla liquid pro

2) naked dies: if anyone is interested check my thread on removing HIS

3) the noise is not terrible but you can definetely hear the pumps

4) the setup is entirely passive but I have an idea to add inferior fans to achieve convection type cooling (under the radiator sandwich that is)

5) the EK is not adequately engineered to work with naked Dies. I have core 3 and 4 running 6-10°C cooler than the other two. I will have to lap the ek!

added a picture of my assembly...so that you can see that the final result can be quite clean even qith exterior tubing...

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...s_2008/rig.jpg

the insides of the radiator assembly. Exterior rad is on the lef. interior and last pass rad is on the right.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...dethebeast.jpg

Geez... now THAT is what some people might call OVERKILL. Not me though, I love the cold. A Quad loading at 40C running at 1.6V, nice job :up:. Moving your system could be a tad difficult however :p:

thanks! I know it is overkill but this is what this forum is all about!

The system is fixed but as long as I can remove the ek I am free to move the case around. I like the "cascade" look of the tubing

I will look into the fan idea but as far as I am concerned this is already good enough.

Also I believe I have now one the most extreme systems in terms of radiator area per W (watt) on this site!

further small edit:

1) removing a second pump will increase temperatures by 1°C/2°C. I may have to install a switch to activate the second pump when benching maybe..

2) the radiators are warm to the touch both of them! I would have never guessed that only a cpu would create this much heat. We are talking about a quad @ 1.6v and 3.6 ghz though.

3) the temperatures crept to 45°C on cores 1/2 and 42°C on cores 3/4

WOW!! thats xtreme:bows:, the same goes for your power bill. Just a noob question, can´t one of your monster pump do the job(less noise and less power used). Maybe on of these will be of help to you, if you need a fan. The quad is not your source of heat dumps, the pumps are and a fan will do you a lot of good. Moreover 1~2°c show that the second pump is not needed.

http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/...er::11059.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shocker003

WOW!! thats xtreme:bows:, the same goes for your power bill. Just a noob question, can´t one of your monster pump do the job(less noise and less power used). Maybe on of these will be of help to you, if you need a fan. The quad is not your source of heat dumps, the pumps are and a fan will do you a lot of good. Moreover 1~2°c show that the second pump is not needed.

http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/...er::11059.html

---

AHAH you are right about my power bill.....Regarding the pumps I have a variable system. The second pump can be activated by a switch. It may come in hndy if I intend to bench in the future with several vgas TECs.

The fan is certainly welcome bu the problem is that I do not have a lot of space between the radiaotrs and money in my wallet this means that I will have to find a cheap and slim giant fan (or two of them). If I position them between the radiators I should be able to have cold air being pulled through the second one, through the fans and through the first radiator. The thermal exchange should be vastly superior with fans.

I also thought of having 4 fans positioned under the radiators so that rising air will increase convection. It would be a ghetto solution but it may work. Also it could provide stimulus for those who have radiators and do not wish to have 10+ fans.

anyway thanks for the input. And by the way keep it coming guys! This is my first ever liquid cooling project so I am excited and eager to fine tune the system.

:up:

p.s. actually the drop of 1-2-3-4°C might indicate that I am approaching the limit of passive cooling and war pockets of air are forming between the radiators. Possibily with increased airflow I should be able to achieve better temperatures with the 2nd pump running.

P.p.s you should hear the monster growl at startup.....it is actually intimidating. The tubing on the ow side shrinks and kinks (an it is industrial tubing) and the radiators are lit with blue leds....

ah this is my system now...the room is messy but as you can see the radiators fit nicely!
th second one is behind the first one.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...8/IMG_1904.jpg

Never such a thing as Overkill...

Im glad you finished, a project that go away from the "norm" is great to see.

But still i wonder how it would do with some active cooling. Passive cooling does not bode well in vegas.

Hey Alex,

Nice work. Glad to see You got things sorted out! :up: I've added a 2nd rad to my setup, but for a different purpose.
On the 2nd rad I have mounted 2x of these in push/pull:

PROCOMP 14" INCH ELECTRIC COOLING RADIATOR FAN CURVED

At 5v they run well and are pretty quiet.....quieter then the 2 Iwakis I would guess. :p: They are available in 10", 12",
14" and 16". The 14" is only 3" thick at center and polarity can be reversed to push or pull. At 5v they still move a
lot of air and do it quietly. 1x would probably do everything you need. :up:

Glad to see You are up and running! :up:

nice! this is one extreme system...
btw, what happened to the (2) audi tt's? now using fesers... :p:

wow pretty cool

Well toi begin with this is technically a variable system......I have only pump running now and it is more than enough.....@ 1.55v I get 37 37 34 32(!) on all 4 cores with ambient @ 24 and 3.6ghz.

Thew second pump is hooked to a switch....If I feel like there is need for it (probably with an active cooling setup) I will activate it...

The audi tts are happily sitting in a junk yard.. :)

As for the fans I would happily install them but I can't seem to get hold of cheap ones....I don't feel like spending much more money on the project now that the results are this good.

anyway thanks for the comments but really I feel there is much I owe this forum and the users here who inspired me and gave me advice when needed.

so.....

Big thanks to xtremesystems forum for all the support

and guys, please let us keep the forum as it has been for me: helpful and inspiring. I read the thread about the kid leaving because of the fanboism...It is sad because I have always received positive feedback and would like to think that this is best place on the web to get that kind of support.

Sorry for the off topic....

Alex

Suddenly I feel so inadequate. :rofl:

Nice super build man. Not one but two humongous radiators and two monster pumps.

Nooooooooooo I am already thinking of a third radiator! :rolleyes:

damn guys, this is getting out of hand. But seriously I am looking into "inducing convection" by placing fans under the radiator pushing air to the top....I will try now so keep on following the thread.. I will post result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlueAqua

Suddenly I feel so inadequate. :rofl:

Nice super build man. Not one but two humongous radiators and two monster pumps.

---

:rofl: Me too!

This is some serious raddage right there boys! :shocked:

Passive watercooling FTW!
Where can I find those radiators? How much did they cost?

This is exactly the kind of stuff that you have to explain to everybody that sees it, because they don't understand. :p:

Nice temps.

don't hate me guys.....

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...xtremeload.jpg

p.s. the date and time is wrong because I reset my cmos. IT is now 15:08 in Italy and ambient is 20°C (aircon)

P.s. the radiators are not important. I found them at a local dealer shop but any radiator is fine, just add anticorrosion fluid and be sure to adequetly seal them (pain in the a@@ if you have a strong pump)

and notice that my core 1 and 2 temperatures are always higher....the ek supreme will be lapped as soon as possibile. I reckon I will seen uniform temperatures across all cores closeer to core 3 and 4.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ownage

Passive watercooling FTW!
Where can I find those radiators? How much did they cost?

---

Exactly:up: Please can you post a link to an online shop or ebay, where one get it.

ehm well it is not hard guys.... :) just type audi tt radiator on ebay.

Personally I got hold of them through an acquaintance so I am not sure about ebay but here you go:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-05...mZ250291527570

of course you may want to check your nation ebay for some offers.

P.s. Any radiator will do fine. It is just a question of getting a big and cheap one. That is up to you according to what you can find/afford in your countries. I was lucky enough to get hold of 2 for 110 euros whereas in Italy I would normally have paid something like 180 euros +. Also make sure you ahve the correct plumbing: the pressure will be an important issue and so will !leak control". I would avoid plastic but it is up to you if you wish to mod a raditor as I have done....

also be sure to have adequate support. The suckers get heavy when full of water. :)

haha that is INSANE! :D

great news......I added some fans to induce convection between the two radiators and guess what? 4 fans at 6v will dramatically increase efficiency.... the radiators are now room temperatures and the temperatures dropped 2-3°C.

here is a pic of the setup. A bit ghetto with zipties but it works.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o..._2008/fans.jpg

you can see that now the fans operate by inducing convection between the 2 plates. The upwards motion of cold air from the ground will induce the "little" flow which is needed to boost coolin efficiency.

I hope this provides some insight fro those of you who wish to try this route.

this keeps on getting better and better....the system is as loud as before but look at my temps...and this is not even pushing it!

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...adwithfans.jpg

edit: seeing that air con is wasteful and not necessary right now I turned it off and I have an ambient temp of 24°C

Now this is just silly.........

1.688v 3.6ghz and I get with an ambient of 24°C this:

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...loadxtreme.jpg

direct link:

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/o...loadxtreme.jpg

this is just insane.....

can I rightfully claim the watercooling crown for just one day? :D

Alex

Small question.....what is the tjunction value for a q6600? 95°C or 100°C ?

95 :up:

added pics...

Ohh here it is on XS. . . . Great project! :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shocker

http://www.caseking.de/shop/catalog/...ESI_061_4g.jpg

---

Whoa, I wonder if that fan could be bought as a spare part. Would be perfect sized for my rad too:up:

I don't think they are sold as spare and probably don't have the muscle to push against tightly spaced fins...

I would need 4 technically to cover "most" of my rad area but in anycase I can't seem to find them anywhere....

Wow man... congrats that is what i call XTREME.. thats what I was expecting to see when I joined here. you just made my day. Well done Sir.

Nice temps. I wish wish wish mine were anywhere near that.

2 car auxiliary fans per rad...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xguntherc

Wow man... congrats that is what i call XTREME.. thats what I was expecting to see when I joined here. you just made my day. Well done Sir.

Nice temps. I wish wish wish mine were anywhere near that.

---

thank you! You might want to know that I plan on adding a third radiator. Just as large but thinner. MAde entirely of copper it should help me achieve a delta of less than 1 degree

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by septim

2 car auxiliary fans per rad...

---

I am afraid that defeats the whole purpose even though it would seriously be extreme! Right now the convection cooling I have is good enough but if I find some very cheap fans I will add them. I plan on having the most extreme of semi passive setups

http://i4.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/d3/ca/4e28_1.JPG

is this extreme enough?

submerge the rads in oil (mineral preferably) in a tank that is roughly the same dimensions as the rads. leave the top open and mount outward facing fans on top. Super Efficiency, you could do it with low speed fans and a smaller pump.

interesting idea but I am afraid that I would have to sacrifice the looks of my silver radiators under the desk. Maybe if I add a thir radiator, thin and very low restriction and encase it in a small tank with maybe 8-9l of mineral oil I might pull it off.

• Is there any need for oil circulation in the tank?
  
• Would I be able to achieve better temps or would the tradeoff of adding a thir radiator outweigh the benefits?
  
• I am not sure if my pump (single) can handle only the ek supreme and 3 radiators. It should have 18l/m of flow and 8m of head pressure.
  
• Where could I find cheap mineral oil (specifically to italian members of the forum)
  
• thanks again for the interesting ideas.

You could always make the tank out of something clear to maintain the look, mineral oil is also clear.

1. no, convection will take care of it
2. i think 2 radiators is already too many, i wouldn't add a third.
3. You don't NEED those flow rates. They might be what you're targeting. It's all a matter of what you think you need in terms of flow.
4. Mineral Oil, unfortunately, is not cheap, but on the upside it will never go bad as long as you keep contaminates out.
5. anytime

why don't you take a bunch of cheap fans mount them on the backside (non visible side) of the rad and whit a controler only let them kick in when cpu hits like 50 degrees and then the fans spinning at 1000 rpm (still olmost inaudible)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dopestuff

why don't you take a bunch of cheap fans mount them on the backside (non visible side) of the rad and whit a controler only let them kick in when cpu hits like 50 degrees and then the fans spinning at 1000 rpm (still olmost inaudible)

---

My cpu never reaches 50°C not even in a passive setup :up:

I get good, very ood results inducing convection with 4 fans mounted under the 2 rads sandwiched together.

I don't understand why adding a third radiator would be a bad thing. If I don't need that flow it means that I have goon enough flow already. Adding a third radiator would improve temperatures no?

P.s. I really can submerge the alu radiators because right now the water and the weight is substancial and the rads are suspended by 2 "L" type supports. I really don't think they will take more kg of oild and container.

I will look into it....

thanks

do you think it's bit excessive? i mean it's LARGE and it's DISTRACTING ... not to mentioned you sitting in front of it .. one of the days your feet might got off and bang on the rad

maybe you should get some wood and disguise it ... btw it's a good worklog

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serpentarius

do you think it's bit excessive? i mean it's LARGE and it's DISTRACTING ... not to mentioned you sitting in front of it .. one of the days your feet might got off and bang on the rad

maybe you should get some wood and disguise it ... btw it's a good worklog

---

excessive? yes definetely... distracting? sometimes.

The point is that I often touch the radiator with my hand to feel the temperature but I calculated that an individual sitting in front will not bang his or her feet unless they intend to. It is sometimes a distraction as I keep on thinking ways of upgrading the system. :D

Also the rads are invisible when someone works at the desk.

Wood would choke any air circulation really and push the whole assembly more towards the user thus reducing feet clearance

Infact this reminds me that I need to update the worklog with some additional details:

1) I have added the printer ink and now by coolant is a very nice blue. No sideffects. Temps unchanged.

2) I will rework the entire loop so that the cpu will have 1 iwaki and the gpu (an ek vga supreme) will have the second one. Both will PULL coolant from the blocks and PUSH the liquid into "Y" connectors and into the rads. From there the coolant will then be separated again and fed into each block (or loop if I add more blocks)

3) I managed to get hold of 15 cheap papst fans and will make a frame and shroud. At 6v I calculated 900cfm of air pulled so temps should be as good as they ca get. Also the fans will be pulled from the first rad and pushed on to the second (the fans will be sandwiched between the rads) so I will effectively have an intense flow of air which should be plenty yet still compatible with a vague idea of silence.

Hope this is interesting. I am very excited about this project since I know it can still be lot of fun to fine tune to my needs.

Not as fun as adding a garrett T15 turbocharger to my R6 yamaha but then again there are other forums for that.. :cool:

THAT is sooo kicka$$!!! Maybe if you mount the whole system on the front of your car and hire a driver, you could bench while cruising on the highway!!:) Or wait, grab some tt turbochargers and incorporate those into the loop, muahahaha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DistortioniZm

THAT is sooo kicka$$!!! Maybe if you mount the whole system on the front of your car and hire a driver, you could bench while cruising on the highway!!:) Or wait, grab some tt turbochargers and incorporate those into the loop, muahahaha.

---

Unfortunately any liquid is unsuitable to be compressed but you can bet Chuck Norris's flying high kick I would have if I could have...:up:

very cool project!

Could you explain in a little further detail how you rigged up the rads to use those 1/2" fittings?

I had an idea of turning some aluminum down on a lathe to match the i.d. of standard automotive radiator hose, then drill/tap the center for an EK or simliar fitting to mate up to it. Then just use the automotive hose to go from the radiator to the turned piece. I could do it at work, and the only thing it would cost me is the cost of the tap(don't have the correct tap size at work).


Also, is there any give on the pumps you used? Maybe a sligthly more expensive, although quieter, pump you could use for this type of application? I typically water cool for sound levels, and it always has been a lovely idea to me to use an automotive rad. Just never thought I could get a quiet pump to fit the bill.

I took a break from watercooling when I got these GTX260s, but I am gathering parts now to move back into liquid cooling. It would be very cool if I could go a route similar to yourself for my next setup. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexontherocks

Unfortunately any liquid is unsuitable to be compressed but you can bet Chuck Norris's flying high kick I would have if I could have...:up:

---

hey, have you read the pms I sent you a long time ago??

sorry for the OT

yes....and have replied to every one.

Have I missed any? If so I am sorry.---:shrug:


As for the rads...

I simply went to a plumbing shop and bought a set of fittings which helped me shrink the inlet and outlet from 1" to 1/2". On the male threaded adapter I then screwed on the 1/2" barbs.

As I recall the adapter went 1" to 3/4" and the barb had a 3/4" female thread to 1/2" hose fitting.

All the connections were sealed with teflon and bisonite.

Bisonite is a epoxy glue I found to be most resilient even in harsh conditions (especially humidity). Left everything to set for 24h and then connected the whole thing to the block and pumps. The adapter is an "elbow" one basically turning 90° and letting me run the tubing without bends. Go to your local hardware shop (plumbing hardware) and explain the situation. Either metal or PVC, you are bound to find the correct stuff.

As for the pumps. You are right (I think) that there are more suitable pumps for this kind of application in terms of noise to performance. However I suggest at least 6m of head pressure if using an injector block.

In my setup the water travel through 2 car rads, against gravity and through 250 tubes through both rads (180 of which are just 2mm wide) You can see that pressure drop might be an issue. I found that the benefits of running 16m of head rather than just 8m is trivial to nonexistant. Also the heat dump outweighs the benefits in my setup (now entirely passive).

You might be able to get good results with two ddc or some other "weaker" pump with a second unit in series or you might just try and see where that path takes you. I am honestly unsure about the correct approach since I went overkill right away.

The iwaki is quite silent actually. You can hear it but it is a low hum rather than high pitched whine so it suits my needs.

My results are impressive. Right now with an ambient of 21°C I am folding 3.6gh @ 1.5v on my q6600 and my temps across all cores are between 36°C and 40°C. this in an entirely passive setup. If I were to turn the 4 (four*) fans I have to induce convection movement between the rads I get a max delta of 10°C at most.

I estimated that I may have 500w of headway in a passive setup (stretching it) and in the excess of 1kw with a full array of fans. Probably 1 rad was sufficient but 2 reasons pushed towards a double system:

1) this is xtremesystems so I felt compelled :cool:

and..

2) it is the most efficient design given my situation. I had space for two under my desk, the pump is able to cope with both easily and any air moving thorugh the rads is enough to let the 2nd rad express its potential.

I hope I have answered your questions. If you check my pics You will be able to spot the fittings and the wy I mounted them. Also for any other info PM me, I will gladly help any way I can.

alex your setup is a real inspiration. I really congratulate you on your setup.


EDIT: I ve just seen you ve got msn: I ve added you :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duh

alex your setup is a real inspiration. I really congratulate you on your setup.


EDIT: I ve just seen you ve got msn: I ve added you :)

---

Thanks! I hope all this can help those who intend to use car radiators. Also some ideas are pretty good in any setup I think. Like the 2 loops joining into 1 (1 pump for each) and especially the convection idea. That seems to me a great way to unite silence and a reasonable performance.

Even the most faint of air movement drastically increases the performnce of passive radiators.

I would imagine the relation is marginally decrescent (I hope this is correct in english).

wow best temps ever :o
1.9v full load = 60cº hahaha :P kickass

dude, i got a industrial floor stand fan (36") in my warehouse that i'm not using... wanna use it? lol