Copper and Aluminum Galvanic Corrosion

Its been a month since i ran h20 on my blackops here with a koolance watercoolink kit. Thanks a lot to Koolance again! :toast:
And many thanks to DIMAS for his benchtable in ferrari red! :cool: :up:

CPU Block is gold plated copper, nb block is our 4in1 block with the alu top, so copper and alu mixed, and the Koolance radiator is pure alu. Ive run 1.7v chipset voltage and thanks to the tropical climate the ambient temp is high, around 25 degrees, and its quite humid here, even in the office. I didnt even use destilled demineralized water, i just used plain tab water which contains tiny amounts of minerals, salts and acid, and i mixed in some of the koolance liquid that prevents corrosion and supposedly improved the temperatures slightly as well.

Aaaaaannnnnnd:

*drum roll* :D

http://www.abload.de/thumb/image001s0n.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/image002056.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/image003avr.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/image005nfo.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/image006cyu.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/image008ejb.jpg


as you can see... no corrosion whatsoever ... the color of the water didnt change, its still clear blue greenish from the koolance additive, and the surfaces still look new. Well, not entirely new and shiny, but they didnt look shiny when i got the board already :D
Im not sure but i think this board has been under dry ice or ln2 already before i got it, or at least the block on it :D
The hoses turned slightly milky but thats always the same with the silicon hoses since they suck up some of the water that flows through them.

I will check the waterblock and the water every month or two and will post updates here. For now im 100% sure there wont be any issues whatsoever, even after years, as long as you use an aditive like the koolance one that prevents corrosion. Those additives are very cheap add a nice look to the water, plus they prevent bacteria and algea growth as well, so the question should really be: why NOT use an additive? :D

I finally found the link i was looking for before when people discussed galvanic corrosion when mixing copper and alu in a loop:

http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...waterloop.html

left is copper and alu mixed, right is from pure copper loop.
Both blocks have been used for YEARS as stated by the thread starter.
I assume they were used for 2 years, and probabaly with some additive to prevent corrosion. So like i said earlier, there will be corrosion, but it will be negectible... unless you plan to use your waterblocks for 5 years or more and care that they keep that shiny "like new" look.

http://www.abload.de/thumb/dscn1314o20.jpg

My father in Law was an lead engineer for Alcoa, and he built aluminum plants around the world. Before I started water cooling with the BlackOps stock north bridge block, I asked him about galvanic corrosion in the system, and mixing metals. He told me it was not something to worry about. The only time that they ever had problems with it was when they welded aluminum and copper tubing together, even then it would take years for the problem to develope. He said it was highly unlikely I'd ever see problems.

exellent info !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BMAF

My father in Law was an lead engineer for Alcoa, and he built aluminum plants around the world. Before I started water cooling with the BlackOps stock north bridge block, I asked him about galvanic corrosion in the system, and mixing metals. He told me it was not something to worry about. The only time that they ever had problems with it was when they welded aluminum and copper tubing together, even then it would take years for the problem to develope. He said it was highly unlikely I'd ever see problems.

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cool, thanks a lot for that info!
first i wasnt too sure, but the more i asked people who actually worked with copper and alu with watercooling equippment the more i realized that all this galvanic corrosion hysteria in the pc watercooling screne was quite overblown.

from what i was told galvanic corrosion between copper and alu and most other metals is only a serious problem when they are exposed to salt water or other highly electrical conducting liquids.

this doesnt mean mixing copper and alu is a good thing tho!
we will try to go for an all copper solution for sure!
I just want to show that there is nothing to worry about, there are some people who thing mixing copper and alu in a watercooling loop will mean the blocks will rust away and within a few months they will have holes in their blocks and radiators with water leaking out. thats def not the case :D

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Originally Posted by saaya

I just want to show that there is nothing to worry about, there are some people who thing mixing copper and alu in a watercooling loop will mean the blocks will rust away and within a few months they will have holes in their blocks and radiators with water leaking out. thats def not the case :D

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Most people arent worried about thsat, their worried about the white gunk that it can create in the water that will build up inside the blocks and radiator or anywhere there is restriction.

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Originally Posted by Zaskar

Most people arent worried about thsat, their worried about the white gunk that it can create in the water that will build up inside the blocks and radiator or anywhere there is restriction.

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havent seen any so far... so what does this white gunk do that i should be worried about?
will it sneak out of my h20 loop one day and start to nibble on my leg? :D

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Originally Posted by saaya

havent seen any so far... so what does this white gunk do that i should be worried about?
will it sneak out of my h20 loop one day and start to nibble on my leg? :D

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I'd be worried about other gunk on your leg :D:D

Thats what i have always said.:up:

Yes it isnt a good idea to mix metals.
As it will take a LONG time for anything to happen.
I have mixed titainium,alu, and (reynolds 853 steel) along with
chromely steel for years with no problems.

Really the only time you would worry is if the thermal cycles/temps are
extremely high and low.

But some people want to fight if some one else mentions it.:shakes:

myth busted, thx saaya

To the OP - thanks for posting your results. Who woulda thunk that corrosion inhibitors actually inhibit corrosion? How novel!


Rude comments removed - STEvil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saaya

I finally found the link i was looking for before when people discussed galvanic corrosion when mixing copper and alu in a loop:

http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...waterloop.html

left is copper and alu mixed, right is from pure copper loop.
Both blocks have been used for YEARS as stated by the thread starter.
I assume they were used for 2 years, and probabaly with some additive to prevent corrosion. So like i said earlier, there will be corrosion, but it will be negectible... unless you plan to use your waterblocks for 5 years or more and care that they keep that shiny "like new" look.

http://www.abload.de/thumb/dscn1314o20.jpg

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That is not true, while the one on the left looks like it has just a little corrosion, the problem isn't only there. Galvanic Corrosion causes a layer on the top of the block, reducing how well it works. Imagine a EK Supreme, that uses it's micro-channels to help cool the metal. If there's a thin layer of less conductive crap on it (not to mention the fact that the additive lowers the conductivity of the water), then it's not cooling nearly as well as it should.

It's like running an engine on oil that is 15,000 miles used. Yes it will work, yes it will lubricate, but it's not doing nearly as good as it should. It can lead to blockages and the raised viscosity of the crud infested oil makes the engine work harder to do the same amount of work.

Personally, if I'm spending that much money on cooling, I don't want to include things in my system that will lower it's cooling potential over time.

Hello , anyone wishing to change there top can purchase one made of delrin from chilledpc, £7.99

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WoZZeR999

That is not true, while the one on the left looks like it has just a little corrosion, the problem isn't only there. Galvanic Corrosion causes a layer on the top of the block, reducing how well it works. Imagine a EK Supreme, that uses it's micro-channels to help cool the metal. If there's a thin layer of less conductive crap on it (not to mention the fact that the additive lowers the conductivity of the water), then it's not cooling nearly as well as it should.

It's like running an engine on oil that is 15,000 miles used. Yes it will work, yes it will lubricate, but it's not doing nearly as good as it should. It can lead to blockages and the raised viscosity of the crud infested oil makes the engine work harder to do the same amount of work.

Personally, if I'm spending that much money on cooling, I don't want to include things in my system that will lower it's cooling potential over time.

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i know, thats why were working on a better solution.
this is our first attempt at a h20 solution and the goal wasnt to make the best h20 solution to begin with, but a combo block that can be used for air, h20, dry ice and ln2 cooling at the same time. and even with all those compromises i think our cooling solution is almost as good as the asus one for air cooling, better than the asus one for watercooling, and it can do dry ice and ln2 which you cant do with the asus one, so...

plus i think the cooling perf degradation in having a thin layer of oxidized metals on top of the blocks surface isnt dramatic. lets say you get even 4 degree celsius worse temperatures... compare that to aircooled and your still 10 degrees cooler at least, and all that with a silent h20 system compared to having several fans in the system.

so yeah, its not the perfect solution at all, we never claimed that, sorry if it sounded like that. despite the galvanic corrosion and not perfect waterblock design i think its a really nice cooling solution and quite innovative, even if it looks pretty ugly (sorry sham :D) and doesnt performs slightly worse than other solutions when you just wanna aircool.

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Originally Posted by RAYTTK

Hello , anyone wishing to change there top can purchase one made of delrin from chilledpc, £7.99

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sweet! thanks for the headsup! :toast:

any pics of the final ones?
mirror finished? :D

think about that small layer in a copper RAD, it would add alot of restriction, and i think t hat u guys have a better solution than asus for liquid and air, and at least urs isnt full aluminum like asus dose now


also do the heatpipes that that HS has work with LN2 or dice to cool the pwm

edit, and next time use g3/8 its awesome now that bitspower makes a metal g3/8 i would like more stuff with it that just my pump its got alot more aria with that extra 1/8" diameter

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Originally Posted by zanzabar

think about that small layer in a copper RAD, it would add alot of restriction, and i think t hat u guys have a better solution than asus for liquid and air, and at least urs isnt full aluminum like asus dose now


also do the heatpipes that that HS has work with LN2 or dice to cool the pwm

edit, and next time use g3/8 its awesome now that bitspower makes a metal g3/8 i would like more stuff with it that just my pump its got alot more aria with that extra 1/8" diameter

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3/8 inch, got it...
full copper, roger
block design as unrestrictive as possible right?

about the rad, well there you actually have such a huge surface that i doubt it makes a difference at all. if anything it might restrict the flow in high perf blocks with thin fins and nozzles and increase the thermal resistance cause of a thin layer of corroded atoms... which might happen after a couple of months to years... but with the propper water additive i dont think even that is a problem :)

here are 2 pics of the deldrin top from ray in case anybody is curious on how they look :)

http://www.abload.de/thumb/pict61341ap.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/pict6145165.jpg

^^ Where do you get those? Because Corrosion isnt a Myth. It happens, you need something like Swiftech Hydrx to keep it out.

one of the biggest things that will cause corrosion is the ph of your coolant if it is any where above or below neutral you will have galvanic reactions. the minerals, biologicals, and dissimilar metals are secondary to this. Just get a fish tank or pool ph tester and see where your coolant is on the ph tables.

As stated in earlier post top is available from chilledpc in the uk, priced £7.99. check mine out now its fitted - http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ict6171az3.jpg

No where in North america?

Chilled PC will post to US.

Worst case of galvanic corrosion I have ever seen was in my work, on machine that grinds rotogravure printing cylinders.
Machine´s outer panels are made of stainless steel and those cynders are mostly copper, that grinded copper goes sometimes to contact with stainless steel and there are also water in system for coolant and lubrication. So if you leave that copper dirt lying over those stainless steel panels thay will corrode into it and then you cand remove it anymore, a week seems to be maximum time between cleaning machines stainless steel panels.

@RAYTTK

Chilled PC doesn't list that acetal top, can you provide a link?

EDIT: Nevermind, here.

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Originally Posted by btdvox

^^ Where do you get those? Because Corrosion isnt a Myth. It happens, you need something like Swiftech Hydrx to keep it out.

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of course its not a myth, but corrosion causing leaks or destroying blocks is a myth, at least from what i know and many people and manufacturers told me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fart_plume

one of the biggest things that will cause corrosion is the ph of your coolant if it is any where above or below neutral you will have galvanic reactions. the minerals, biologicals, and dissimilar metals are secondary to this. Just get a fish tank or pool ph tester and see where your coolant is on the ph tables.

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thanks for the heads up! :toast:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BulldogPO

Worst case of galvanic corrosion I have ever seen was in my work, on machine that grinds rotogravure printing cylinders.
Machine´s outer panels are made of stainless steel and those cynders are mostly copper, that grinded copper goes sometimes to contact with stainless steel and there are also water in system for coolant and lubrication. So if you leave that copper dirt lying over those stainless steel panels thay will corrode into it and then you cand remove it anymore, a week seems to be maximum time between cleaning machines stainless steel panels.

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you mean the copper leaves greenish/blueish marks?
have you tried ketchup yet? :D
ketchup is awesome to remove corroded copper marks and make it look all orange and red again :D

Its been 2 months, we are moving offices so i had to disassemble the loop anyways.
i just opened the block and took a pic for you guys:
http://www.abload.de/thumb/image207s7q.jpg

i dont really see any changes compared to 2 months ago...
theres a slight greenish color on the edge of the base and i noticed some white-ish green-ish stuff on the top of the waterblock:
http://www.abload.de/thumb/image0004db.jpg

it looks like corroded aluminum and copper, so far, nothing to worry about though.
considering that this loop has been running for 3 months im surprised how few corrosion signs ive seen so far.
either corrosion really isnt that big a deal or the koolance anti corrosion additive is doing a really good job :D

This is the koolance stuff im using:
http://www.xoxide.com/koolance-liq-700bu-b.html
its also available in yellow/green red and purple i think, and its uv reactive too, not 100% sure about the latter, but according to google there are koolance uv reactive mixes. even if its not, to get uv reaction you only have to add a few drops of the right stuff, so... its easy to prepare your perfect h20 soup :D

______ JULY _____ ___ SEPTEMBER ___

http://www.abload.de/thumb/image006cyu.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/image207s7q.jpg

Heres a compare, different light, angle and distance.
actually the new pic looks even better than the older one :lol:

http://www.abload.de/thumb/3monthsrxf.jpg

the pics suck, i know :P
but i think its enough to conclude that there isnt any serious corrosion going on eating through the blocks that will cause a leak anytime soon :D
the copper block still looks like copper and isnt all green or black, the alu top is still black and doesnt look corroded except for some small white-ish marks on the side :)

Saaya, no disrespect intended, but your photo shows the beginnings of corrosion on the aluminum top. It looks localized where the anodize is not even. Now, it's not like one of the threads that shows a Swiftech GTX aluminum block that is just disintegrating, but you still got a bit of corrosion going on. Your coolant is doing a decent job at slowing down the corrosion. I would change it every 4 months to ensure it's fresh and to keep an eye on the system.

I just got this board and so far from the little bit of playing around with it, it's a very good product. From the user results posted here, it is a very capable board. I think it's head and shoulders above other X48 boards. However, if you guys at Foxconn could make one change to the board, change the aluminum top to delrin. Then this subject of corrosion is moot. Otherwise, I'm pretty impressed with the board so far.

Regards!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sailindawg

Saaya, no disrespect intended, but your photo shows the beginnings of corrosion on the aluminum top. It looks localized where the anodize is not even. Now, it's not like one of the threads that shows a Swiftech GTX aluminum block that is just disintegrating, but you still got a bit of corrosion going on. Your coolant is doing a decent job at slowing down the corrosion. I would change it every 4 months to ensure it's fresh and to keep an eye on the system.

I just got this board and so far from the little bit of playing around with it, it's a very good product. From the user results posted here, it is a very capable board. I think it's head and shoulders above other X48 boards. However, if you guys at Foxconn could make one change to the board, change the aluminum top to delrin. Then this subject of corrosion is moot. Otherwise, I'm pretty impressed with the board so far.

Regards!

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thanks! :toast:

and sure, your absolutely right :)
there are signs of corrosion, i just wanted to point out that there isnt a reason to worry if you use an additive :D
some people were worries their blocks will corrode so bad they would get leaks and the blocks would be trash cause of the holes in them after a year of usage :D

the waterblock on our BloodRage X58 board will be copper base and brass/bronze top, which are very close in the anodic index (0.00-0.10V difference) so there shouldnt be any notable corrosion even without a water additive :)

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For harsh environments, such as outdoors, high humidity, and salt environments fall into this category. Typically there should be not more than 0.15 V difference in the "Anodic Index". For example; gold - silver would have a difference of 0.15V being acceptable.

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http://corrosion-doctors.org/Definit...nic-series.htm

Great news about the top for the Bloodrage was going to ask you that. Oh and tell them not to put any counter boar's in the tops for the fittings. Got a Chilled PC top for my Black ops which worked out nice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saaya

the waterblock on our BloodRage X58 board will be copper base and brass/bronze top, which are very close in the anodic index (0.00-0.10V difference) so there shouldnt be any notable corrosion even without a water additive :)

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Why not just use a copper top? If the loop becomes all copper there wouldn't be any problems, would there? I know, you'll probably say it's because of the high copperprices but still...I had to say it:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gendo

Why not just use a copper top? If the loop becomes all copper there wouldn't be any problems, would there? I know, you'll probably say it's because of the high copperprices but still...I had to say it:rolleyes:

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If copper top is too expensive, it should be an option to choose two versions with different prices, IMO. Or use delrin top instead for one option. Brass/bronze top is good enough as well. I want BloodRage already :welcome:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crazystang01

Great news about the top for the Bloodrage was going to ask you that. Oh and tell them not to put any counter boar's in the tops for the fittings. Got a Chilled PC top for my Black ops which worked out nice.

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what do you mean with counter boars?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gendo

Why not just use a copper top? If the loop becomes all copper there wouldn't be any problems, would there? I know, you'll probably say it's because of the high copperprices but still...I had to say it:rolleyes:

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dont ask me, its both a cost and a mfg thing... copper isnt that easy to work with, bronze and other alloys are easier to work with... apparently...
i asked them for full copper, if its copper and bronze it should be fine... but ill continue to push them for full copper, dont worry :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gmcg

If copper top is too expensive, it should be an option to choose two versions with different prices, IMO. Or use delrin top instead for one option. Brass/bronze top is good enough as well. I want BloodRage already :welcome:

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well, you will be able to use an entirely different waterblock :D the waterblock will be exchangeable without removing the rest of the motherboards cooling :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saaya

______ JULY _____ ___ SEPTEMBER ___

http://www.abload.de/thumb/image006cyu.jpg http://www.abload.de/thumb/image207s7q.jpg

Heres a compare, different light, angle and distance.
actually the new pic looks even better than the older one :lol:

http://www.abload.de/thumb/3monthsrxf.jpg

the pics suck, i know :P
but i think its enough to conclude that there isnt any serious corrosion going on eating through the blocks that will cause a leak anytime soon :D
the copper block still looks like copper and isnt all green or black, the alu top is still black and doesnt look corroded except for some small white-ish marks on the side :)

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I would like to show you guys what the North block will look like using the metal block (black) vs a copper one. I ran 1 loop for about 3 months using the following parts. Distilled water, Swiftech Hydrx coolant, Pentosin antifreeze (G001100) I am hopping Foxconn did not skimp with the new X58 board BloodRage North Block? The sad thing is I was given a NEW all Copper block for a replacement, but I was to lazy on switching them. :ROTF:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...e/IMG_1241.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...e/IMG_1240.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...e/IMG_1233.jpg

guys, a lot of rads for pc cooling have copper and brass, so copper and brass have nothing to worrry about.

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Originally Posted by Boogerlad

guys, a lot of rads for pc cooling have copper and brass, so copper and brass have nothing to worrry about.

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Thats because brass is an allow of copper + zinc. I would think that brass, bronze (copper and tin) and pure copper would be fine in any loop!

As long as there isnt aluminium, you are fine. Brass is ok.