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Quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampsa
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Quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampsa
Sad to see not high resolution runs with Crysis. :(
I know it is to show max playable for very high, but just for fun.
"Driver Heaven does not use benchmark scripts. We play the games for long periods of time on various levels and report any unusual findings we see. Then we record with FRAPS across several in game levels recording the averages. This is real world testing and is just how you guys will experience the game. Occasionally we might throw in a time demo as a further comparison, but we will note it. "
this is a very very bad way to benchmark and the results they give for the GTX280 seem higher than normal, albeit only slightly, but the HD4870 CFX results seem very low, and the R700 only slightly above them.
pcper: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?typ...&aid=590&pid=2
anand (from other thread): http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3354
they show some dif results :(
Those previews are the 1gb cards.... where are the 2gb cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by m0da
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==
They have 2 of them in CF :) Can't really see how it scales since they use different settings and res for CF and non CF.
you're right! thanks. I didn't know they were going to make a 512x2.Quote:
Originally Posted by eBoy0
first post has the 2gb though.
nope, look @ the gpu-z reads 1gb..Quote:
Originally Posted by m0da
From the article:
think gpu-z is looking at each core as a card. possible?Quote:
In terms of memory we have 1 GB of GDDR5 on each side of the card and each RV770 GPU has access to its own gigabyte.
This would be better if we could see it against 9800GX2s in SLI now that be interesting
Another one -> http://techreport.com/articles.x/15105
PCPer's article looks inaccurate
Extremetech article
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2325444,00.asp
3DMark Vantage shows enormous potential for the new ATI card. Scaling over the Radeon HD 4870 is about 80% in High mode, and a whopping 95% in Extreme mode. It's also quite a bit faster than the $650 GeForce GTX 280. So far so good, right? Well, there's a reason the card isn't out yet, as some of our other benchmarks demonstrate.Quote:
Originally Posted by annihilat0r
:)
I don't understand. On some sites 4870 CF and x2 scale well (not great, but well) in Crysis. On other sites, they don't at all. I don't think they could be using different drivers, so what's that all about?
I didn't know they were launching a 512mbx2 version of this card, i thought it would be 1gbx2 only
From What I see, compares to what I said before. It's really going to be a mix bag of chips.
so far from all the articles more or less, The GTX 280 gets better avg FPS, but the 4870 gets a better high FPS.
Typically you wanna go for avg more then high.
I'm wondering why in the Enthusiast article, they said they used a BFG GTX 280 OC, but it's clocked at 615mhz. I thought the standard clock is 620mhz? wtf guys?
But this round is still up in the air, and Who said it was 70% faster then a GTX 280? lol, Because from what I see, it's about 10%-35% Max. Considering it's 2 GPUs vs 1 GPU. That's not too impressive and Now let the price war begin. Of course revisions to the cards too.
Hexus' benchmarks are the most interesting of them all
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=14178
i think a lot of the reviews are not retesting all cards on same drivers just the x2 on newer drivers and using scores from past reviews for other cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by annihilat0r
this card hasn't come out yet. amd/ati has a month to improve on drivers. it certainly has some potential.
Wow the card performs pretty well according to these previews. Now we just have to wait for some more solid benches and to find out all the holes in the R700.
AMD gave the reviewers to right to be biased in favor of either AMD or NVidia by not giving them a benchmark suite but allowing them to choose four titles to review the card on.
Anandtech's choices greatly favored AMD, for example. And there are obviously some games which still don't benefit at all from 4870x2, so by choosing only them I could make 4870x2 look as if it's a total waste of money.
I don't think it was the right thing to do for AMD, especially with immature drivers still a month from being released.
I want to know if microstuttering was eliminated...
According to a member here who has the card for review, microstuttering is gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaac MM
Quote:
Originally Posted by annihilat0r
Anandtech will slay any AMD bs when the NDA lifts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anandtech
I agree with what you are saying and you do have to wonder why they would have such strict rules unless there are big problems.
No, they haven't stated something like that. Actually I sense quite the opposite with "we feel that we both have to report on games that do benefit from CrossFire and underline the fact that there are games out there that do not benefit or that do not benefit significantly from CrossFire". They didn't include any games without CF support in their benchmarks.
I guess it is because it totally sucks atm [assuming it will improve].
PS : I edited my post a gazillion times and don't know if you are replying to the latest one ;)
Looking at the numbers i've seen so far, the card looks amazing! Anybody know if the 1gb card, and the 2gb are getting released at the same time?
also, does anybody know if the memory is shared? I will guess that it is not, because nothing would use 2gb, at least not for the next year or two. But, I heard that the two gpu's communicate through ram, not a crossfire bridge.
It looks like time to upgrade from my 8800gtx :-P
since this card uses crossfire, i wonder if/when linux drivers will be released, because the other 4000 series cards shipped with a linux driver cd in the box!
The memory is not shared. There is a nearly 3 fold increase of bandwidth because the use of a PCIe 2.0 chip. And also GDDR5 memory has some type of memory sharing tech, although I am not exactly clear what it does or how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by cakofony
Essentially the 4870x2 is an improved version of the the 3870x2. A vastly improved one in many ways, but is not seen as one GPU like some had hoped.
Dont they know how the 3dmark vantage scores are calculated? Of course the scaling on different presets will be different. The weights given to the gpu and cpu scores for each one is different.Quote:
Originally Posted by eBoy0
If i buy this card, will my pcie1 mobo hold me back at all?
nope! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by cakofony
I'm not that impressed to be honest, IMHO minimum FPS and Average FPS is really where the money is at, check out the poor minimum FPS in Crysis!
Sadly I was expecting this sideport thing to boost the minimum FPS as it would take the load off the CPU syncing the cards or something...
John
Alrite, but wanted to mention on this thread (since it's now moved here) that HardOCP site omitted the GTX 280's CSAA modes without even mentioning it. We all know that those Nvidia cards can do 8x and 16x CSAA modes at little to no performance cost compared to 4x AA. Yet they praise ATI's CFAA modes that are often criticized on other sites (due to edge blurriness in games that heavily utilize post-processing like Unreal3 games and extreme performance hit in many games on single 4870 cards).Quote:
Originally Posted by m0da
While it is truly to be praised that the R700 architecture can do 8x AA very well compared to Nvidia's true 8x MSAA, 8x CSAA and 16x CSAA are done with even less performance hit--usually none at all. And many sites accept that 16x CSAA is better than straight 8x MSAA.
Do you guys agree about 16x CSAA > 8x MSAA?
I really don't like crysis as a benchmark because it does not scale very well, and I really don't like the engine (and personally, i don't like the gameplay).
That said, the artwork is beautiful... if only the rest of the game were so amazing.
sorry if that was off topic, but I think its important to remember that some games are coded badly, and might not be as good for benchmarking as others :-)
forget crysis, the game wont be playable to next year at near max at any decent reso. Farcry 2 hopefully wont be poop
It was up to 80% and 40% on average, I believe is what the article said. I don't think you're looking hard enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/r...3626/17187.png
BAM! Almost 100% faster.
? what reviews are showing that, those don't seem typical at all. Seems most of the reviews show the x2 ahead of a gtx...Quote:
Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy
I'm inclined to agree, the results are somewhat underwhelming and the min FPS values aren't that awesome even in games that scale well with CF.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZS
That being said, this card being at around $500 still reduces a $500 GTX 280 to a joke.
this looks like my next card!!! :)
me so happy! :D
I agree, what are people talking about? The X2 seems to be killing the single GTX 280 for less $$$.Quote:
Originally Posted by villa1n
is there microstuttering problem? Or is fixed?
good question! anyone read the articles thoroughly? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by OBR
or did you's all skip to tha puuurty pics? :rofl:
Hey this aint :banana::banana::banana::banana:o, well at least not to some of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss
:shocked: blasphemy! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by eleeter
graphs showing bench results/fps is haaawt! :ROTF: :p:
:up:
No way in hell. CSAA sucks serious ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo_Fox
in which article is something about it? In Anands is nothing ...Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss
I asked if anyone had read any of the articles thoroughly - I dont know if any of them mention it - hence the question ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by OBR
:up:
i guess only Sampsa done some investigation in this field for now. Hopefully we'll see his preview soonQuote:
Originally Posted by OBR
Some frightening AA scaling in AoC @ [H]ard:
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/7042/19838925df9.jpg
:rofl:
lol! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by fellix_bg
OfT: does anyone else find the [H] articles difficult to read/look @/'decipher'? :shrug: ... their pages always have this 'hurt my eyes' affect on me :(
i kinda agree, after all this hypeing the X2 turned out to be nothing more then a regualr CF on one board card (as expected). It sure sometimes sacales better then to single boards but it still suffer from the same limitations as normal cf -> no profile and your screwed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnZS
Im still torn between a 4870 vs a 280gtx, cause the 280gtx has come down to 355€ (incl vat) vs the 4870@ 210€.
Since CF/SLI is a nogo, its a hard decicion what to choose. 280gtx is ~20% faster then a 4870 but paying 60% more for a 280gtx is not aiding. :p:
LOL, hell yeah!Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss
My signature over at [H] is:
Quote:
Wow, you must have good eyes if you could read this!
FORUM IMPROVEMENTS REQUESTED:
1) More smiley face icons
2) Option to display more threads (not posts) per page
3) Option of having your own avatar (default option for viewing: OFF)
4) Slightly larger font for signatures
5) Upload hosting of small files, up to 10MB total per user
6) More respect for members (PM warning before banning, etc..)
And HardOCP forums will still have its unique integrity.
:rotf: I was actually referring to their review articles :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bo_Fox
their fourms? dont even get me started! :mad: I have registered with them TWICE & NEVER recieved the confirmation email - my first attempt got no where because of this, & thus I couldnt post (duh).. I went back a few months later, tried to login & I get a Forum msg saying I've been perma-banned - & yet I had never posted!!!
I gave up.. :down:
Personally I'd wait until more is known on the GT200 refresh if you are gravitating towards a single gpu solution. In fairness though, given the speed difference between the 4870 and 280, in the games that do scale you'll be ahead of the 280 with a X2 and in those that don't you won't be far behind and given it will only cost slightly more( I'm guessing the rumored $499 price is for the 1GB version of the X2 and that the 2GB model will be $50-60 more), thats not a bad deal. My guess is we'll see the 55nm within $50 of current GT200 prices so they *may* be worth waiting for.
Still if Nvidia can get within 10-15% (on average) of the 4870 X2 with their 55nm part, I'd sooner go for it as you get both lower power usage ( thus thermals and fan noise ) plus theres no annoying driver issues / inconsistencies like with SLI/CF. I've heard CF drivers / profiles are rather slow in coming ( many games in the past haven't had profiles with new title releases which totally sucks ; who wants to wait for days/weeks for the new game they bought to perform ) The lack of custom profiles with the Catalysts also doesn't sit well with me personally.
But who knows perhaps Ati will go crazy driver side ( back in the good 9000 / x800 days their drivers were great in my eyes )with these cards but that remains to be seen. I've had more confidence in Nvidia as far as drivers go over the past 2 years ( and their strong developer relations and TWIMTBP program do help usually ) For now I'm going to pick up a single 4870 and roll with that until the dust settles regarding the X2 and Nvidia's counter offer.
wonderful AMD R700!
EXACTLY my thoughts on all levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickenfeed
ATI needs to deliver good CF profiles to every game if they are serious with this "no more big GPUs, we'll just throw in a second GPU if you want FPS" strategy. And I do think they'll do that, as even with the magnificent price/performance ratio you would never expect from a high end product 4870x2 still isn't directly recommendable to everyone because of CF issues.
ROFL!!! Yeah been banned twice without warning myself for some rules that were not even in the guidelines. Now I realize that I like XS much better for all of those reasons in my sig, and more (it's true that there are far more *cough* noobs *cough* on [H] asking all those questions over there to no end, and to no end I mean it). Oh yeah, I'm not getting you started, and dont get me started either! LOL.. :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss
Really? In screenshots, 8x CSAA is roughly equal to 6x MSAA that was offered on ATI cards for a few years. And 16x CSAA appears to be like 10-12x MSAA in screenshots.Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird
Do you have a reference? A review site saying that CSAA sucks serious ass? I notice that when playing the game in MOTION, it still looks like no better than 4x AA but the screenshots really do show a difference except when there is not very much contrast among the edges.
I found this quite opposite (I think I'm optimist in general). 4870x2 will be faster than GTX280 in NEW games as those will get CF profiles pretty fast (GRID, AoC, Crysis, CoD4, Bioshock etc.). For old games though which won't never see CF profile, it doesn't really matter because those doesn't need so much grunt for hardware than newer games. And even then it'll be only a little slower than GTX280.Quote:
Personally I'd wait until more is known on the GT200 refresh if you are gravitating towards a single gpu solution. In fairness though, given the speed difference between the 4870 and 280, in the games that do scale you'll be ahead of the 280 and in those that don't you won't be far behind and given this is for only slightly more money ( I'm guessing the rumored $499 price is for the 1GB version of the X2 and that the 2GB model will be $50-60 more), thats not a bad deal.
So it's most likely win/win situation ...if the price is "right". For me, of course. :)
Is there any test out there that has used AMD Phenom to review these cards? I think that these superfast cards are bottlenecked but the FSB and they should get better scores using Phenom
Couldn't agree more. With the exception of Crysis, any game out at the moment will run perfectly fine on the 4870x2, regardless of it using SLI or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by L7R
whether or not it "wins" over the 280gt in the older games doesn't matter as it will be playing them to such a high framerate, it would be pointless to argue about.
It's new games that matter and if AMD keep the CF profiles coming out with them, then buying the 48070x2 will basically mean it gives a higher FPS in all new games over a single 280GT.
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by gosh
lol - Intel makes a better CPU at the moment, that is fact, so no, a phenom would not get higher/better results with these cards!
:up:
This isn't about the processor speed, it's about I/O performanceQuote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss
there will be soon ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by gosh
:confused: didnt say anything about speed :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by gosh
I/O performance or not:
bottom line is this, any system with an intel cpu behind the video card is gonna get better results than an amd cpu behind the same video :fact: :yepp:
or do u have a phenom & just wanna figure out approx. how many fps u'll get? I know what thats like - I'm still on s939 :D - I have to 'factor in' less fps with every review result i look @ due to less cpu power :rofl:
:up:
Every review have different result but clearly 4870 x2 is at the top, I was hoping for more strong card but as i can see all these cards are only 1gb?
But beta drivers and old bios it will get much better later and hopfully we will clearly see the 80% increase over the Gtx 280.
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi...l_q9450/14.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi...el_q9450/8.htm
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi...l_q9450/13.htm
There you can se that a much slower phenom wins over Intel. On low res intel wins easy, going higher and if the video card is fast using advanced graphics then AMD is winning. One computer isn't just the speed of the processor, all fast parts on the computer needs fast comunication
Great!!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Cooper
Nvidia GTX280_GTX260 more Price Cut :slapass:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemowish
Lets wait for the new GTX280 Extreme ;)
i thought it was out and taking a beating !Quote:
Originally Posted by jVIDIA
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showpr...)%20-%20Retail
:)
happy with my single 4870 atm ....just need ati/amd to fire out some drivers now !
When AMD launched 9850 Black, our own Tony did comparison of K10@ 3.4 GHz vs. Yorkfield @ 3.4 GHz /w GF 8800Ultra, and K10 pulled out better 3DM2006 score!
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=282
And this is in 12x10 rez! In 26x19, with all the FSAA and Aniso turned on, speed of the CPU is even less factor for GPU score!
So yeah, I think it would be great if the final testing is done on Phenom 9950 Black Edition on 790GX mobo the new OC'ing capabilities ON ;)
Well thats good to hear then. Hopefully ATI continues that trend. I'm not concerned with older titles as like you say they already run fast enough. As long as there is consistent driver / profile updates this card will do quite well. Although these cards are definitely a niche, the whole scalable idea of AMDs will need alot of effort put towards it for it to come together without any major flaws.Quote:
Originally Posted by L7R
Until a foolproof way of scaling cores is available (eg with guaranteed results ), I'm more prone to recommend a single card myself. I've came to this conclusion after using SLI with both 7900GTs and more recently 8800GTS 512s. To be fair though when it worked it was a nice improvement ( sometimes with 70-90% gains at high resolution over single card ) but I always hated in games when the performance just wasn't there over a single card. I couldn't' help feeling ripped off given I spent 2x more for 0-25% improvement. I won't deny that multigpu solutions are fastest but the cost per performance gain just isn't linear but I guess people know that when they buy into it. You simply do pay alot more for the latest and greatest I suppose ;)
Again its all in ATIs hands are far as drivers go so hopefully their team are doing everything possible to make the 4870x2s launch ( and life ) as smooth as possible.
That is really strange, if true i would like to know what happens when you have some CF/SLIQuote:
Originally Posted by gosh
It's related to Intel's FSB vs AMD's HT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellisimo
Don't worry, future Intel chipsets will take care of the problem :)
Afaik this is the only review that shows such behaviour, no other reviews shows that (even with similar resolutions).Quote:
Originally Posted by m0da
no other review does such comparisons when they compare cpu\'sQuote:
Originally Posted by Hornet331
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/r...3626/17190.png
WTF happened here?! CF actually slower, yet X2 scales like a dream? I guess drivers were optimized for X2 only.
was thinking the same, but maybe its because of the CF sideport?Quote:
Originally Posted by SimBy
or he has reused scores from previous testing with older drv?
I just published my ATI Radeon HD 4870 X2 preview on Finnish hardware and overclocking site Muropaketti.com:
http://plaza.fi/s/f/editor/images/X-...1333482181.jpg
http://plaza.fi/muropaketti/artikkel...d-4870-x2-r700
Small Finnish to English dictionary:
Minimi = Minimun
Keskimääräinen = Avarage
Maksimi = Maximum
Article includes my tests with microstuttering issue which I'll translate to English later (hopefully today) with graphs and raw measured numbers.
The 4870x2 performs worse in general right now then 4870 in CF. Oh noes. Who called that one. I will admit that They mainly perform the same now, because of a general better design. Where do you guys see 70% Age of Conan? Okay? and when did that become a standard to BENCHMARK. I noticed also, Why isn't there any 3dmark06 benchs in the previews.
When I look at benchmarks, I expect them to be like HL2:EP2, TF2, 3dMark06, 3dMark Vantage, Quake Wars, Crysis, Call Of Duty 4, FEAR, NFS:Pro Street, UT3, stuff like that, the only thing I seen test was Age of Conan in all of the reviews mainly, Crysis, and GRID. Yes GRID is pretty. But it seems like a one-sided benchmark on it.
http://plaza.fi/muropaketti/artikkel...4870-x2-r700,1Quote:
The 4870x2 performs worse in general right now then 4870 in CF. Oh noes. Who called that one. I will admit that They mainly perform the same now, because of a general better design. Where do you guys see 70% Age of Conan? Okay? and when did that become a standard to BENCHMARK. I noticed also, Why isn't there any 3dmark06 benchs in the previews.
When I look at benchmarks, I expect them to be like HL2:EP2, TF2, 3dMark06, 3dMark Vantage, Quake Wars, Crysis, Call Of Duty 4, FEAR, NFS:Pro Street, UT3, stuff like that, the only thing I seen test was Age of Conan in all of the reviews mainly, Crysis, and GRID. Yes GRID is pretty. But it seems like a one-sided benchmark on it.
3DMark benchmarks.
And if you actually seen more than one review you would know that reviewers could only pick 4 games which they can bench. Which ones is up to them.
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/amd_...view/page3.aspQuote:
Originally Posted by Bellisimo
fs does, tought not up to 1920x1200 but 1600x1200 with is quite enough to.
I really think something went wrong with that review.
Hmm mybe somone with a phenom rig and a HD4870 can do some testing and a guy with a penryn rig. Should be possible to pull this off.
Anyways enough offtopic. ;)
and if you actually looked at my post, there was many preview. Don't tell me that, I've seen Reviewers have 6-8 games before.Quote:
Originally Posted by SimBy
Also, I forgot Bioshock and Devil May Cry 4 are good ones to benchmark.
Those 3Dmark06 don't seem very actuate. But the article is hard to read since I don't know anything other then English.
I'm saying there is a lot better games that could have been benchmarked if they was really limited to 4.
I don't see any problem with Benching Conan. I don't play it myself but a lot of people do and it is quite new. Rather Conan than Fear TBH.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy
The card performs pretty much as expected for me. If it's cheaper than 2 4870s, then it's a decent card. Bit expensive for my liking but then again so is the 280.
If I had $600 to spend, then the 4870x2 would be the choice I would take followed by the 280.
all the games you mentioned are old and playable even with one 4870 age of conan is popular one thats why they test it mostly :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy
So what it's popular, The One I stated are still used as benchmarks.Quote:
Originally Posted by eric66
and When did Devil May Cry 4 become old :confused:
I wouldn't mind them using Age of conan if the DX10 feature worked, That would add something to the table. But it's not DX10 Enabled yet. What happened to Assassin Creed. :rofl:
Things like Age of Conan and Crysis are tested because they are among the most demanding titles out now ( and likely for some time ) I do agree MMOs are very hard to bench as the worlds are persistent and you won't ever get the same exactly run twice ( for this reason I wish all MMOs had a time demo for testing purposes ) and Crysis doesn't seem to like crossfire but these still are demanding games, both in memory usage and shader requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy
@Warboy - As far as DX10 and Conan we won't see this until late fall ( its going to be demoed next month but won't be finished and realeasble for another couple months according to the game director ) Regardless (even without DX10 ) Conan is still quite demanding and not a single reviewer has done a worse case scenario test with it yet, to be fair that would be very hard to test ( HardOCP runs through Old Tarantia, which can be very demanding, but a large raid would be even more demanding, to the point of bring a 4870x2 in the 10-15fps ranged maxed out I'd bet ) The problem with MMOs is the consistency of benchmarking for the reasons I mentioned above. Based on player load you can get some pretty substantial variations in testing but I guess a run through a crowed city during peak times will give a decent enough baseline.
Fair Enough, But as you stated, it's just really a pain in the ass to bench MMOs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickenfeed
Warboy, just enjoy your GT280. Does it really matter for you if the R700 is 70% faster than the GT280 or not? Cause from the way I read your posts, you are anti AMD anyways. And the GT280 is fast enough even though it is slower than the R700
To be honest so far i find HardOCP preview to be most informative. Then again i stopped reading after Hexus, just waiting on Sampsa's english translation.
yead dmc4 and AC can be used also but one 4870 is enough for them i thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalyst2211
hehe i thought the exact same thing when i read his posts
You have diferent reviews with diferent games. Is just a matter to loking at all reviews and have plently of games where HD 4870X2 kicks ass of GTX280 xxx-turbo-ftw-tuning.Quote:
Originally Posted by [cTx]Warboy
You keep repeating the same thing by 10 posts or so ;)
Eh. To me, the 4870 X2 seems to be the winner all around.
*ssssshhhhhh* someone might hear u! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by cegras
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalyst2211
Don't confuse Realism with Fanboyism. If You really have read my previous posts, You would know Not to confuse those to things with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillo-kun