SWC DDC TOP comming up - tests prove better than Alphacool, DDCT-01s, XSPC

OK, friends, long time we haven't seen some new DDC tops. This is about to change soon, very soon. :D

SWC comes from Sugar4o Water Cooling - Sugar4o is water cooling guru here in Bulgaria. He has been designing and producing water blocks, modding pumps, etc. since the dawn of water cooling. Quite many people had/have his cpu, chipset, gpu blocks. Including me. Some few weeks ago he bought a DDC pump from Laing Hungary Inc. He just couldn't resist to modding it.

Enough of the man, let's talk pump tops!

Testing methods:

High restriction system, consisting of a SWC block (very low restriction), some thermaltake vga block (highly restrictive), and restrictive barb at the end. Test is filling a 2 liter bottle.

Free flow - only pump with some tubing. Test - filling a 5+ liter bottle.

Barbs used are the the gray plastic you see in the pictures - 8mm inner diameter, 11mm outer. Only Petra's top was tested with D-tek's (should get some advance from that).

Pump was DDC 3.2, 18W, blue impeller

RESULTS

Restricted system......................................Free flow
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1...strflowmu1.png http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7710/freeflowma0.png


http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2237/image053tf1.gif http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1518/image054sb7.gif


The top has some major differences on the inside chamber. It's only a prototype - even the chamber is not polished. So even better results are expected after finishing the insides!

The reservoir is also a prototype - it's glued with the top with some chloroform. In high flow conditions a huge whirlpool on horizontal axis is formed and is the next thing to fix. This should improve flowrate quite a lot. The finished product should be optional and easy to mount and rotate to suit different needs.


HERE ARE SOME PICS:
(idiot taking pictures, pls don't kill me) :p:

THE SWC DDC TOP

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9...ilteredgd0.jpg
Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2008-05-19

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1...ilteredqw0.jpg
Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2008-05-19

THE SWC DDC TOP WITH RES

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8...ilteredey2.jpg
Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2008-05-19

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/5...ilteredzq6.jpg
Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2008-05-19

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5...ilteredkw7.jpg
Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2008-05-19

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/578...ilteredkt3.jpg
Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2008-05-19

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7...ilteredch4.jpg
Shot with DMC-FZ7 at 2008-05-19

Well done. I really like to see guys from my country doing research work in water cooling. It's easy to see that the new SWC top is well performing one but that's not all - it's even better performer than tops from Petra and Alphacool:shocked: Congratulations, Sugar4o, nice stuff from you :up:

Minor pet peeve of mine...charts scales (no, doesn't always have to go down to 0, but in this case, 0 is the floor of plausible results).

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9392/63491432mb0.png

That said, looks like a good performer, hopefully it'll be a publicly available product/visually improve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vapor

That said, looks like a good performer, hopefully it'll be a publicly available product/visually improve.

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+1

looks kinda horrible at the moment but it seems to perform well.. i was about to place an order for some XSPC restops..i think i'll wait a bit and wait for some news on this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Giannis86

+1

looks kinda horrible at the moment but it seems to perform well.. i was about to place an order for some XSPC restops..i think i'll wait a bit and wait for some news on this.

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+1

It does look pretty hacked together at the moment, is that epoxy I spy on the inside? :shakes:

Fugly but a good design.

For those of you that didn't notice, the top is two pieces. That way there is more of a seal against backflow along the impeller outlets. That IMO is what gives it a slight edge over the XSPC top. The main reason why those two are so close in performance is because they both have spiral volutes.

I actually have a slotting cutter that could do this same thing as one piece and much less fugly.

Yes, there is a nice spiral volute and this really help with performance.

Very nice!

I like the two layered top, this gets around the o-ring limitations and provides more room for the spiral shaped volute. Good work!

I think I saw an email from him in the middle of my bios formatting. Hopefully he'll give me a chance to test it.

Always good to see some competition!

SEND IT TO MARTINM!! just too measure it on the same accepted test bed that all the others r rated on. :)

Thanks, DeathSpreadeR, for the nice words!

First - it's not two pieces, but three. And yes it's quite bulky at the moment, it's definitely not the finished product.

It's not only the spiral - there's another tweak in there, that does the job. That's all I can say.

Things are getting arranged so we can send it to Martinm210 - it should happen soon. But maybe it'll be this very top - not polished, just like that. Again - expect even better results with the end user product!

Martinm210, yes the e-mail is about this top - the man himself contacted you. If you have the interest - you get one! :D

As to mass production and availability - it all depends on you, guys! If there's enough interest - so be it! The price... I cannot comment on that, but it should be quite tempting!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aspire.comptech

+1

It does look pretty hacked together at the moment, is that epoxy I spy on the inside? :shakes:

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Hehe, there's no epoxy - pieces are glued with chloroform. And if you ask if there's something in the chamber - no there isn't anything there. ;)

well if you need interest, and it really does perform that well, you have one customer for 2 or 3 right here. plus an entire forum board to recommend it to future buyers. but thats only if it performs well for martinm :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mord

Martinm210, yes the e-mail is about this top - the man himself contacted you. If you have the interest - you get one! :D

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Thanks!

Out of town on business at the moment, but I'll get back to catching up on my email when I get back later this week.:up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pedalmonkey

well if you need interest, and it really does perform that well, you have one customer for 2 or 3 right here. plus an entire forum board to recommend it to future buyers. but thats only if it performs well for martinm :)

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exactly my plan too:D i need 3 for a 3loops config...thats if it looks good as an end product though. Where will those be available? I'd love to see those at Petras..

*sigh*:shakes:

Sorry to say this and dampen all the enthusiasm but, I don't see this top being any good in the category we've come to judge a pump by...pressure. The bores on the fittings look way too big (what are they..10-11mm?) to allow any kind of decent head pressure. I see this top about as effective as the original Radiical top (hint: it got stomped by AC and Petra's) that also out flowed every other top. Tighten up the bores on those fittings and it'll fall in line with the rest of the tops on the market.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Giannis86

exactly my plan too:D i need 3 for a 3loops config...thats if it looks good as an end product though. Where will those be available? I'd love to see those at Petras..

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Quote:

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SWC comes from Sugar4o Water Cooling - Sugar4o is water cooling guru here in Bulgaria

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Be patient guys! Let's see if Martin can test it, and the "official" results of course.

Also there are some more things to tweak and it'll be in production!

Waterlogged

Quote:

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Barbs used are the the gray plastic you see in the pictures - 8mm inner diameter, 11mm outer

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All but Petra's top were tested with these!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mord

Waterlogged

Quote:

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Barbs used are the the gray plastic you see in the pictures - 8mm inner diameter, 11mm outer

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All but Petra's top were tested with these!

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Whoops, missed that. I still think it'll have lower pressure compared to the AC and Petra. I have an AC and the holes in it are all 7mm, I also have both versions of Petra's top and the inlet is 9.5mm on both and 7.2mm on the original and 7mm on the "s" model. It's just simple fluid dynamics, put your finger over the end of a garden hose...what happens?

Some new tweaks, change in looks a bit. Both prototypes are going to Martin very soon! Hopes are to bring the DDC to it's maximum capabilities!

http://www.modreactor.com/gallery/al...10526/diff.jpg

Martin will be receiving one of my prototypes as well soon...

We should do a user-created shootout, though I seriously doubt I would win...

Very nice! I look forward to testing them..:)

I'm going to have to put my CPU block testing on hold as I resolve my motherboard issues, so I'll try to get caught up on my pump testing for a while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mord

It's not only the spiral - there's another tweak in there, that does the job. That's all I can say.

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I already mentioned it in my post above. The bottom section of the top seals against the bottom edge of the impeller outlets to prevent backflow from the widest part of the volute under the impeller body.

Yeah, it's a great idea. I was always thinking some sort of special rounded/T like endmill would be needed to do that, never thought of making it in more than 1 piece. This should really help direct the flow off the impeller vane plane and concentrate it to the outlet. It's also a great way to get around the diameter limitations of the o-ring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Yeah, it's a great idea. I was always thinking some sort of special rounded/T like endmill would be needed to do that, never thought of making it in more than 1 piece. This should really help direct the flow off the impeller vane plane and concentrate it to the outlet. It's also a great way to get around the diameter limitations of the o-ring.

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It is called a radius keyseat cutter. This design could easily be done in one piece with the right tooling. Honestly I've already seen how high the impeller outlets sit out of the housing on the DDC's; I've considered something along these lines before.

An intersting note... this design change will only benefit spiral volute designs; IMO there is not enough pressure differential around the impeller on a round "high-flow" style design to cause a major performance increase. There isn't enough propensity for backflow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iandh

I already mentioned it in my post above. The bottom section of the top seals against the bottom edge of the impeller outlets to prevent backflow from the widest part of the volute under the impeller body.

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Yes, that's it! But the two part top is only for fast production of prototypes.

It is now being arranged to have the finished product molded. That is if test show good results. And, of course, if there's interest. ;)

Good work :up:

Excited and expressing intrest here..... :)

Just be careful about molding, the only top out currently that is injection molded has had a fair share of "Cracking" problems associated with it. Maybe if a softer more crack resistant material like polycarbonate is used, that problem can be avoided.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mord

Yes, that's it! But the two part top is only for fast production of prototypes.

It is now being arranged to have the finished product molded. That is if test show good results. And, of course, if there's interest. ;)

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Molding is an option, but using that cutter I showed above, along with a v-groove cutter (to sharpen the impeller seal area), this could very easily be machined from delrin.

I could probably come up with something but I am way busy with other projects right now. I'm sure if you find the right machine shop you can have a batch of 25-50 made for a reasonable price. Molding can be very expensive; for instance simple injection molding dies can start at 5000 USD. Not to say its entirely a bad idea, but you may want to pursue machining first.

Either way, good job on the design. I had seen the problem before, but never pursued a solution to it. :up:

Hi, at last my account in this forum is activated so I can thank you all for the good words about my idea for DDC top.
As I heard the guys from Petra are in development with a new design of their top, so competition is coming up :)
I've already sent 2 engineering samples to Martin so I hope he will have them tested in about 10 days. I’ve already decided that if my design is placed in top 3 I will make it available worldwide if not I will sell it only in Bulgaria. And its price will be less than the current top competitors :) Here is the preview of the end product:
http://www.modreactor.com/gallery/al...ew_Picture.jpg
and a tank option is on the drawing board :)

@iandh - Respect man! You were the first that noticed the whole idea behind my design. But I think this design cannot be achieved from one peace of material. At least not without drilling the outlet. But exactly this drilling is one of the problems of the current tops (I think) – one of the important things is to separate the outgoing water from making another circle around the impeller.
So that’s it from me – if anyone have questions or opinion I will be glad to here it:)

Hey dude,

I'm not too far from you right now as im in Montnegro sorting my apartments out. I really am impressed with the results from the tests so far and the work gone into it. As you said Alex (Petra) is working on a 2nd top which will be intresting. I think you have given him a run for his money as well as many others

wow ill buy one to test as well nice owrk

Enough of 3D drawings -

Still not polished but final :)
http://www.modreactor.com/gallery/al...526/SWCtop.jpg

Martinm210 got the samples so in few days I'm expecting the results -
:yepp: it will be interesting

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

Martinm210 got the samples so in few days I'm expecting the results -
:yepp: it will be interesting

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NICE! keep us posted :up:

any work being done for a D5 top?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

Martinm210 got the samples so in few days I'm expecting the results -
:yepp: it will be interesting

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yay!! I'll be waiting to see those (now if there was only room for a little 3mm led somewhere :D )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madmaxx

NICE! keep us posted :up:

any work being done for a D5 top?

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I hope to have good news on D5 top soon. I'm waiting for pictures and measurements on the D5 pump because I don't have one, so a friend will disconnect his from his rig to measure the dimensions I need.

The first 20 tops I've made are with transparent bottom and curve and with black top, so it will glow only on the sides. However I can produce tops with FLUORESCENT top layer - something like
http://www.plexiglas-magic.com/image...nd-1_68408.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

I hope to have good news on D5 top soon. I'm waiting for pictures and measurements on the D5 pump because I don't have one, so a friend will disconnect his from his rig to measure the dimensions I need.

The first 20 tops I've made are with transparent bottom and curve and with black top, so it will glow only on the sides. However I can produce tops with FLUORESCENT top layer - something like
http://www.plexiglas-magic.com/image...nd-1_68408.jpg

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looking forward to D5 top ;)

those colour's look amazing :up:

nice looking ddc top, also definitely looking forward to a D5 top

keep it up, looks like your doing it right so far

id love to see some red or blue top layers

wow great job on the top. i like the option of different colors too.
cant wait for the results.

could me in for a D5 top as well. :)

OK here it is - SWC D5 top

The final model:
http://www.modreactor.com/gallery/al...526/D5_top.jpg
Threads - G1/4
Spiral shaped

I think I'll have a real sample to test next week and I will post the results.
If someone needs to see this model tranparent let me know :)
I'd love to hear your comments!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

OK here it is - SWC D5 top

The final model:
http://www.modreactor.com/gallery/al...526/D5_top.jpg
Threads - G1/4
Spiral shaped

I think I'll have a real sample to test next week and I will post the results.
If someone needs to see this model tranparent let me know :)
I'd love to hear your comments!

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interesting! i like it :up:

how do you mount it to the pump? same as stock?

UV reactive would be cool!

The top is mounted with 4 bolts and a back plate (not shown on the picture)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

The top is mounted with 4 bolts and a back plate (not shown on the picture)

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thnx, does it still use o-ring to seal?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madmaxx

thnx, does it still use o-ring to seal?

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Yes but O-ring is on the side, not like the stock one. So the bolts are just holding the top on the pump (not compessing the ring). This way you can point the outlet in any direction you need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

Yes but O-ring is on the side, not like the stock one. So the bolts are just holding the top on the pump (not compessing the ring). This way you can point the outlet in any direction you need.

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sound's interesting

i'd like to see this in use :yepp:

waiting for test result's :up:

Subscribed :D I cant wait.


Any idea what pricing and availability in the US will be?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

How will we be able to buy one?

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with money :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

u don't say... :slapass:

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:clap:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

Where will we be able to buy one in the US?

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If tests prove that it’s better than stock top it will be available worldwide as DDC one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

If tests prove that it’s better than stock top it will be available worldwide as DDC one.

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Even if its as good as stock Id be happy :) I just want to switch to 3/8 barbs, possibly compression fittings.

i'd like a couple UV blue one's :D

:up:

The interesting part is still to come!
When the SWC D5 top is complete we will have a real battle – DDC vs. D5. The two pumps will have tops with the same geometry and the only differences will be:
1. Impeller’s geometry
2. Power - 18W (4500 rpm) vs. 24W(4800 rpm)
So which pump will win?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

Hurry up with the testing.... The wait is killing me....

I still have a Liang D5 vario, sitting in it's box, never used.... It sure could use a new toupee... :rofl:

IMO, the MCP355 will still be KING

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You will think that right up until a DDC dies on you ;)

It is official now - SWC top has been tested by Martinm210 - look forward getting more details on http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/

Nothing there yet...11:33 PM Beijing time. :-(

everytime i see this thread.

i keep thinkn sidewinder computers for some reason. :rofl:

i keep thinkn, omg gary is trying to become like alex?? :O

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

LOL... We don't want that... :rofl:

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alex does enough crazy things as it is.

LOL cuz of alex i was all my fans under water. :up:

I have the test results from Martin, but I don't want to spoil the surprise :)
He is very busy lately so give him some time to update his site with the results

I'll update my page following this.

Here are the results of the two prototypes I tested. Keep in mind these are just prototypes mostly hand made, so the final product will likely be different.

I tested two prototypes and this is how the better top performed with two different barb setups.

First a side by side of the two tops. The blue version was the same as the clear, but had a shorter volute depth, so tolerances were very tight to the impeller. This blue top performed best. D-tek barbs were too long for the protoype, so I had to use a barb spacer common to graphic card blocks.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3...rbsetupwf2.jpg

Testing:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2...stsetupld6.jpg

Up close testing in progress: Note the very sharp blue cutting edge and true spiral volute throughout..nice!:up:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/668/testingcg7.jpg

Comparison to the XSPC tops. The red curves indicate high, medium, and low restriction curves
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9...esvsxspel3.png

Details of the best test (blue top with D-Tek Barbs):
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6...ekbarbsti5.png

Overall the best top with D-Tek barbs performed extremely well. It roughly tied the two XSPC tops in an average restriction system. The XSPC tops performed slightly better in high restriction systems, and the SWC top performs slightly better in low restriction systems.

I really like the volute shape on this top, it has an extremely sharp and efficient cutting edge and clean exit, very unique in design as well. This top produced an efficiency curve that peaks out at nearly 25% at 2.4GPM...Great work!!:clap:

wow the top looks great and performs on par with the xspc tops, nice.

blue or green... blue or green.... or maybe red... i dunno. :rofl:

Thanks martin as always and great job on the top there sugar4o

Thank you Martinm210!
As everybody noticed by the results the XSPC top beat me only at 1.0 GPM with 0.13 PSI and mine is better at 3.0 GPM with 0.26 PSI. And this was expected, because the models tested do not have inlet nozzle so using the D-Tec barbs gives inlet of above 10mm. And this is cured in the final version :)
The XSPC ResTop is a very fine peace of engineering and I’ll do my best to beat it when a reservoir option for SWC becomes reality.

But first I will please the D5 owners :yepp:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

But first I will please the D5 owners :yepp:

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Yes please! :up:

GL, and I hope the D5 does as well as the DDC (because I will be buying 3 soon)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

Thank you Martinm210!
As everybody noticed by the results the XSPC top beat me only at 1.0 GPM with 0.13 PSI and mine is better at 3.0 GPM with 0.26 PSI. And this was expected, because the models tested do not have inlet nozzle so using the D-Tec barbs gives inlet of above 10mm. And this is cured in the final version :)
The XSPC ResTop is a very fine peace of engineering and I’ll do my best to beat it when a reservoir option for SWC becomes reality.
But first I will please the D5 owners :yepp:

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Sorry but I noticed the XSPC Res/Top combo beating your best top from 0 to 2 GPM as the graphs shows.
We should know that most of our setups are in that range, so the XSPC still is the best

Quote:

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Originally Posted by leo_bsb

the XSPC Res/Top combo beating your best top from 0 to 2 GPM as the graphs shows

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Please read carefully!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

this is cured in the final version

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mord

Please read carefully!

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Oh, OK, so we are waiting for your version of res/top combo.
Right now you manage to match the XSPC top on 2 GPM, great result so far :up:

3 GPM is so unreal you must forget to compare those on that flow.
Just make a simple loop preview with martin's spreadsheet and you will notice that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

But first I will please the D5 owners :yepp:

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nice!

looking forward to your product, hopefully in UV blue ;)

:up:

here is the first prototype of SWC D5 top
http://www.modreactor.com/gallery/al...s/10526/d5.jpg
This one performs as good as ddc3.1 with SWC DDC top (this is the only pump I could test it against so far). It has G1/4 threads so you can use whatever barbs you like :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

here is the first prototype of SWC D5 top
http://www.modreactor.com/gallery/al...s/10526/d5.jpg
This one performs as good as ddc3.1 with SWC DDC top (this is the only pump I could test it against so far). It has G1/4 threads so you can use whatever barbs you like :)

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I want it! :D

anything new on this?? it looks really enticing.

Sugar4o how's it going with these?

I will test some tweeks on the top this weekend and I'll post mine results. Than a top will be shipped to Martin.
By the end of the next week I'll have my site updated with section for online ordering for both DDC and D5 tops

This looks really good!

You should make these in POM/Acetal also.

The ring/bolt solution on the 655 that let you choose where you want the outlet, is a good idea, but some mounting holes fixed to the pump body is needed to make this useful.

I think the 655 top is the most interesting, if it performs better than the stock top.

Keep up the good work!



Edit:

EK have a 655 top available also, so maybe Marins liquid Lab can test this one too?




Espen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

I will test some tweeks on the top this weekend and I'll post mine results. Than a top will be shipped to Martin.
By the end of the next week I'll have my site updated with section for online ordering for both DDC and D5 tops

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waiting patiently.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Espen123

This looks really good!

You should make these in POM/Acetal also.

The ring/bolt solution on the 655 that let you choose where you want the outlet, is a good idea, but some mounting holes fixed to the pump body is needed to make this useful.

I think the 655 top is the most interesting, if it performs better than the stock top.

Keep up the good work!



Edit:

EK have a 655 top available also, so maybe Marins liquid Lab can test this one too?




Espen

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Yes please I hate acrylic, and hide my pumps anyways. I would much rather have Acetal/Derlin. I do wonder how this D5 top will compare with a stock ported D5?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

Yes please I hate acrylic, and hide my pumps anyways. I would much rather have Acetal/Derlin. I do wonder how this D5 top will compare with a stock ported D5?

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+1 for Acetal or Derlin

I'm interested in a 655 top too, I've heard the 655 pumps are just as good if not better than 355's and live longer, overall awsome work Sugar4o!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headala

I want it! :D

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when/where can i order this or the ddc top/res ?
im liking this way better than the xspc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Justintoxicated

Yes please I hate acrylic, and hide my pumps anyways. I would much rather have Acetal/Derlin. I do wonder how this D5 top will compare with a stock ported D5?

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+1... btw sugar4o you said the D5 was performing just as well as a DDC3.1? im confused? isn't a D5 better? correct if im wrong please:shrug:

I was a little busy lately with production process.
I am sending the final versions of SWC (both D5 and DDC) tops to Martin in 2 weeks. My site is in reconstruction right now but it will be functional by the end of next week and you can see and order the tops there.

thanks for the answering sugar4o, will anxiously wait for pricing.
:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar4o

I was a little busy lately with production process.
I am sending the final versions of SWC (both D5 and DDC) tops to Martin in 2 weeks. My site is in reconstruction right now but it will be functional by the end of next week and you can see and order the tops there.

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If you can have it in Delrin or Acetal I'll be buying 2 for sure :D Not a big fan of Acrylic!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jiangxue

If you can have it in Delrin or Acetal I'll be buying 2 for sure :D Not a big fan of Acrylic!

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i hate acrylic... so many stories... rather get something that will last for sure then take a chance with XSPC...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whokidmo

i hate acrylic... so many stories... rather get something that will last for sure then take a chance with XSPC...

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Yeah.... Petra's delrin one looks nice but the XSPC seems to perform better. So I'm hoping for more delrin/acetal ones. :p:

Wow cannot wait for these results! I have 3 D5s that could use some top =D