Fuzion V2 base is not the same as V1

FYI,
Just got done putting some calipers to use on the V1 and V2 side by side.

Total Base Thickness
V1=.220"
V2=.200" (Also machined on the top a little)

Pin Height
V1=.160"
V2=.150"

Base thickness left
V1=.060"
V2=.050"

I think there have been more than cosmetic top changes going on here..:D

This is likely the reason the pressure drop results for V2 are more restrictive than the V1 with washer only. The pins are shorter, so that means a smaller cross section for the water to flow through, but on the posotive it means higher velocity/turbulence/heat transfer.:up:

Time to do some pressure drop testing and thermal testing..:D

oO nice!

That would somewhat explain why I got much better temps... Looking forward to your testing though! :D

how does shorter pins increase restriction?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madmaxx

how does shorter pins increase restriction?

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If you add up the cross sectional area the water can flow through the pins, it's proportional to the height of the pins.

It's a little complicated to measure with triangular shaped pins, but for example (This is not right, but a simpler way to look at it).

If the gap was .160" tall by .050" wide, the area between pins would be .160x.050 = .008 square inches per gap.

Reducing that height to .150" would give you .150 x .050 = .0075 square inches.

Shorter pin height means a smaller sectional area. This is less wetted area for heat transfer overall, but it forces higher velocities overall and particularly closer to the base where it's most important. I think there is a careful balance between which is more important, more velocity close to the base or more area further from the base. Obviously the new fuzion was designed very slightly shorter, and also with a very slightly thinner base as optimizations in the net result.

I've always wondered whether sanding the bottom of a block (thus reducing the distance that heat travels to the wet area) would increase it's efficiency...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adpr_02

I've always wondered whether sanding the bottom of a block (thus reducing the distance that heat travels to the wet area) would increase it's efficiency...

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Not by much, I know some one tried lapping a CPU to the die and got hardly any difference in temps from a "standard" lap, I think it might have been martin who did that actually... :confused:

Dont think it would be much different than lapping a block in the same manner.

REALLY? I was planning on doing that.

The plan was to sell the Apogee GT I currently have, get myself a Fuzion V2 and sand that way down, as well as sand my cpu a lot more than it is now (it's just lapped)........


I guess I have to re-consider that...

I didn't go all the way down, but when I was trying to make my own block, after getting a good pin matrix and top done, I tried milling the base down thinner and temperatures went up.

In the end I think it's another one of those balancing things.

A thicker base allows "Distribution", so a nice thick base will allow the heat to spread out and get cooled by a larger number of the pins. The downside to the thicker base is that even copper itself only transfers heat so fast. So thicker is a bit more insulating as well.

A thinner base doesn't distribute the heat as well over more pins, but it has less insulating from the core.

In the end, I think it's a balance depending on if the block has nozzles that focus cooling over the cores or not and the type of matrix. It also probably depends on the type of processor and how spread out the heat footprint is.

All I know is thinner is not ALWAYS better, but it does seem to do well when combined with nozzles.

Martinm, I see what you mean. Good point. I'm probably just going to stick with the fuzion stock, then. I'm guessing its designers know better.

I knwo this is off topic, but how did you get the 120.2 to fit in the armor? I only have room for 2 120.3 radiators (with the top drilled out). Do you have any pictures of your build? I'm interrested in adding a few more pumps in my system, as well.

How can you tell whether a given Fuzion is v1 or v2? *nevermind, I see some places list it differently plus it looks quite a bit different, also comes with a backplate now so no promount kit needed. blah. How much of a difference does it make over the v1?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMan007

How can you tell whether a given Fuzion is v1 or v2? *nevermind, I see some places list it differently plus it looks quite a bit different, also comes with a backplate now so no promount kit needed. blah. How much of a difference does it make over the v1?

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I just started testing mine today. Pressure drop testing was done with all of the nozzles, they are a bit more restrictive on the bottom end, but again my results are a little lower than D-Teks published curve. After I get 5 mounts of the stock setup thermal testing done, I'll publish a webpage on my results and post it here too.:up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

FYI,
Just got done putting some calipers to use on the V1 and V2 side by side.

Total Base Thickness
V1=.220"
V2=.200" (Also machined on the top a little)

Pin Height
V1=.160"
V2=.150"

Base thickness left
V1=.060"
V2=.050"

I think there have been more than cosmetic top changes going on here..:D

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good find! :up:

funny, I remember some big know-it-all saying they are exactly alike (in another thread that is) :rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss

good find! :up:

funny, I remember some big know-it-all saying they are exactly alike (in another thread that is) :rofl:

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but they do look alike...
tell me, if you just received a new block, you were exited and all, would you seriously start measuring it inch by inch? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janno

but they do look alike...
tell me, if you just received a new block, you were exited and all, would you seriously start measuring it inch by inch? :D

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if I got the right tool(s), sure u not? :shrug:
of course it wouldnt be the *first* thing I do! :D but I would definitely do it! :up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janno

but they do look alike...
tell me, if you just received a new block, you were exited and all, would you seriously start measuring it inch by inch? :D

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perhpas that's what distinguishes the Xtreme Addict from the hobbyists...?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Janno

but they do look alike...
tell me, if you just received a new block, you were exited and all, would you seriously start measuring it inch by inch? :D

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Heck no, it's got to be to the nearest .001"...:p:

No, after seeing the pressure drop curves between the V1 plus washer and V2, I figured there had to be more to it than just the top. The bases look the same from a distance, but that's what calipers are for..:D

The V1 has been out long enough, I'm sure D-Tek has had plenty of time tinkering with small changes and optimizations. They are also very performance based folks, no fancy marketing or pointing fingers, all their effort has been improving their own product.

That gets a :up: in my book.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Heck no, it's got to be to the nearest .001"...:p:

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:rofl: come on us engineers here do at least to the nearest .0001" :rofl:.

On a more serious note good work man ill be looking forward to see the full results, keep up the great work :clap:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

FYI,
Just got done putting some calipers to use on the V1 and V2 side by side.

Total Base Thickness
V1=.220"
V2=.200" (Also machined on the top a little)

Pin Height
V1=.160"
V2=.150"

Base thickness left
V1=.060"
V2=.050"

I think there have been more than cosmetic top changes going on here..:D

This is likely the reason the pressure drop results for V2 are more restrictive than the V1 with washer only. The pins are shorter, so that means a smaller cross section for the water to flow through, but on the posotive it means higher velocity/turbulence/heat transfer.:up:

Time to do some pressure drop testing and thermal testing..:D

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nice review Martinm210....:up:

damm i just bought the fuzion v1 :( should i replace ? :p:

btw did you tested it with nozzle kit ?

thx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss

good find! :up:

funny, I remember some big know-it-all saying they are exactly alike (in another thread that is) :rofl:

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Haha, that was ME!!! :D

Except, I didn't think that they would have changed the thickness or anything, and I don't have the right tools to messure that..... and I'm not a big know-it-all either.

:rolleyes:

Good work Martin!!!!! :up:

P.s. I'm also doing testing with the stock V2 right now, 5 mounts and everything this time, the load testing will be 10 minute warm up then 30 minute recorded load test.
So it'll be nice to compare results with someone!!
Thanks for all the help yesterday too!

@ Smee glad you're getting thorough.

@Martin... So now the question is... This or the xspc? ;) ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by I34z1k

@ Smee glad you're getting thorough.

@Martin... So now the question is... This or the xspc? ;) ;)

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Thanks, yea it's going to be tough, but I'll manage... :)

So as far as Martin's testing goes, the XSPC beats the fuzion v1 right?

This is going to be fun!

And the v2 I believe... Not sure though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brave758

:rofl: come on us engineers here do at least to the nearest .0001" :rofl:.

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How does an engineer chop a log in half?

Calculate where to cut the log to three decimal places.
Locate the cut with a tape measure.
Marks the cut with a piece of chalk.
Cuts with an axe.
:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snyxxx

How does an engineer chop a log in half?

Calculate where to cut the log to three decimal places.
Locate the cut with a tape measure.
Marks the cut with a piece of chalk.
Cuts with an axe.
:D

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You forgot to mention the need to know:

Type of wood
Bark or no bark
Moisture content
Diameter
Carbon content of axe blade
Angle of axe blade

Then...just before the swing, the environmental folks would show up and shut me down as usual..

Darn endangered beetles or something I overlooked..:D

What migratory bird act?..:)

I'll reserve my results for the end, but the V2 is looking like a really good improvement over my V1 results..:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snyxxx

How does an engineer chop a log in half?

Calculate where to cut the log to three decimal places.
Locate the cut with a tape measure.
Marks the cut with a piece of chalk.
Cuts with an axe.
:D

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

You forgot to mention the need to know:

Type of wood
Bark or no bark
Moisture content
Diameter
Carbon content of axe blade
Angle of axe blade

Then...just before the swing, the environmental folks would show up and shut me down as usual..

Darn endangered beetles or something I overlooked..:D

What migratory bird act?..:)

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:rofl::ROTF: So true.:shakes:

In the case of where I live...the Common Tern. So far, it's resulted in a NFL football stadium being located in a suburb of the city the team is suppose to represent, a state college also being located in another suburb and recently, a "signature" bridge between the US and Canada being scraped for a "3rd place runner up" design.

<sigh> heh. anybody want a never been used, and only dropped once v1 with pro mount? :)

Guess I'll be upgradeing before I even get it installed..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anubis_is_evil

nice review Martinm210....:up:

damm i just bought the fuzion v1 :( should i replace ? :p:

btw did you tested it with nozzle kit ?

thx

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I bought the FuZion V1 2 weeks ago as well... lol
But what's the XSPC block?
I must've read over it or something... :confused:

PS great testing Martin, highly appreciated...again :up:

Garrett,
I tihnk they are meaning the XSPC X20 Delta block, :
http://coolercases.co.uk/acatalog/XSPC_CPU_Blocks.html
I am intending on getting this blocok as it is much cheaper than the fuzion, and also performs just as well, if not better,
I tihnk they are also releasing the edge, or something similar, which is meant to be better i think, although people think that it is very similar to the supreme, i tihnk........
Just me trying to help....

I think the XSPC Acrylic block is the one mentioned ;)
Here's why I think that: http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/XSPC...U-Preview.html

Sweet review! Gonna to be fun testing this block out!

So... when are the results coming? :)

just wait, they will come :)
he's making sure that he takes his time so that we can get very accurate results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jagt

So... when are the results coming? :)

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I'm only going to do this once, so do you want just the stock block or several nozzles included?

Pressure drop testing is all done.

I've got stock done and 4 of 5 mounts done with the 4.5mm nozzle. It takes a full day of bleeding between nozzle switching, so it takes time.

So far I don't have enough data to even recommend a nozzle and I was hoping to include that as part of the package.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

It takes a full day of bleeding between nozzle switching, so it takes time.

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Wait, you mean it takes you a whole day to bleed out the air bubbles?

It takes me about 10-15 minutes to switch out nozzles and get the air bubbles out....
I don't have to drain the loop either.

How do you do it?

Yeah sorry, didn't mean to nag. I understand it's a very time consuming thing to do, and I believe we all greatly appreciate your throughout and accurate tests. Was just wondering if you had some kind of time estimate, as I'm greatly anticipating the results! :)

Yeah, you must be running a reservoir. I'm still running a T-line and my D5, 90&#37; is bled out in an hour, but it takes overnight to completely clear up.

I'll probably go ahead and just finish this with the stock and one nozzle run. After seeing the lack of performance with a 4.5mm nozzle, I don't expect to be able to measure anything worthwhile in the nozzles. All the gain for dual core with standard pumps appears to be in the washer which is integrated in V2 with an o-ring.

I should have something to share by mid week this week. I still have a bunch of pictures and webpage building to finish up first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Yeah, you must be running a reservoir. I'm still running a T-line and my D5, 90% is bled out in an hour, but it takes overnight to completely clear up.

I'll probably go ahead and just finish this with the stock and one nozzle run. After seeing the lack of performance with a 4.5mm nozzle, I don't expect to be able to measure anything worthwhile in the nozzles. All the gain for dual core with standard pumps appears to be in the washer which is integrated in V2 with an o-ring.

I should have something to share by mid week this week. I still have a bunch of pictures and webpage building to finish up first.

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ahhh, I see. I have my reservoir sitting above my tech bench, so all the air bubbles go there.
But usually I'll just have the block un-mounted and take the whole loop to my desk for a couple minutes and run the pump and get all the air bubbles out by moving everything around.

BTW, are you going to test the V2 bowed? Getting an EK O-ring?

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

Martinm210:

Are you going to update your flowrate spreadsheet with the v2 block w/Quad Plate? PLEASE.........

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Stop being so pushy!! He's working too hard as it is.

HURRY UP AND UPDATE IT, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D




JK, jk, Martin. You are doing a fine job, take your time. :up:

So many people are waiting patiently for these results, better take some shares out for D-tek and sell them after the whole of XS buys V2’s. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

Martinm210:

Are you going to update your flowrate spreadsheet with the v2 block w/Quad Plate? PLEASE.........

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Sorry, they didn't send me the quad plate. You guys are on your own with that one, you can use a quad nozzle as a rough guess, but I have no idea how the whole plate relates.

I did test and I will update the estimator with the V2 and nozzle kit though. It's already done, I just have to make the trimmed down web version.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RealRedRaider

Do you want one? Do you still have the block, or did it go back? I will buy both right now and put your address as the ship to if you PM me your address... You're welcome to keep them, I've already got mine from Gary @ Sidewinder...

:off: If Android ever gets off his a** and makes his block available for sale, I'm buying one and would love for you to test it.. (I just like it's looks) :off:

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I don't have a quad, so the only thing I could test would be pressure drop.

I'm done with my draft review, just waint for a quick check and I'll post it in the next couple of days.

I'll get an estimator update done in the mean time.:D

well if RealRedRaider is so willing to buy a quad plate for you, im sure he will be willing enough to buy you a Q6600, they are cheap enough as it is. he could at least let you borrow his Q6600, lol.

anyways, why do we need a trimmed down web version?
trimmed down? shouldnt anyone using that term at XS be banned :p:
give us the full blown 1TB version of the results :)

thanks for your work so far

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ripken204

well if RealRedRaider is so willing to buy a quad plate for you, im sure he will be willing enough to buy you a Q6600, they are cheap enough as it is. he could at least let you borrow his Q6600, lol.

anyways, why do we need a trimmed down web version?
trimmed down? shouldnt anyone using that term at XS be banned :p:
give us the full blown 1TB version of the results :)

thanks for your work so far

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I have to give you the full version. I was usually trimming off my plotting charts, links, and pictures so I could attach it in the sticky thread as an attachment (200K max). But it looks like I'm over the 200K limit regardless, so you get the full meal deal but only from my site. It's on my site now, but I havn't updated the other links and sticky threads yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I have to give you the full version. I was usually trimming off my plotting charts, links, and pictures so I could attach it in the sticky thread as an attachment (200K max). But it looks like I'm over the 200K limit regardless, so you get the full meal deal but only from my site. It's on my site now, but I havn't updated the other links and sticky threads yet.

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Oh Sweet!!! *goes and downloads* :D

You are awesome Martin! :up:

sweet, im reading it now, thanks

Uuuuuhhhh.... Martin, is there something wrong with the estimator? it's not like it used to be, it's all weird....
Like a list of things and thats it....:shrug:

its only the estimator, not the actual results for the block

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ripken204

its only the estimator, not the actual results for the block

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Yes I know, but the one I downloaded was really weird, I'll try re-downloading then....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smee

Uuuuuhhhh.... Martin, is there something wrong with the estimator? it's not like it used to be, it's all weird....
Like a list of things and thats it....:shrug:

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Oops, I acidentally saved it when viewing one of the other tabs. All you have to do is click the interface tab.

I didn't mean to do that though, I've uploaded a new version, it should work fine now.:up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Oops, I acidentally saved it when viewing one of the other tabs. All you have to do is click the interface tab.

I didn't mean to do that though, I've uploaded a new version, it should work fine now.:up:

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OooooOOooH! Got it...

Hmmm, the font on some of the words like "Reservoir", "GPU", "CPU" etc, are all a little big and cut off.....
I don't know if you can tell.
Just a heads up!

Whoa, my loop runs 2GPM!!!! :shocked::shocked: Dang, thats a lot....
BTW, it's a 1c difference in temps from speed 5 to speed 1. I like running at 3, inaudible, yet It gives that extra 1c. :up:
D5 pump BTW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smee

OooooOOooH! Got it...

Hmmm, the font on some of the words like "Reservoir", "GPU", "CPU" etc, are all a little big and cut off.....
I don't know if you can tell.
Just a heads up!

Whoa, my loop runs 2GPM!!!! :shocked::shocked: Dang, thats a lot....
BTW, it's a 1c difference in temps from speed 5 to speed 1. I like running at 3, inaudible, yet It gives that extra 1c. :up:
D5 pump BTW.

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Good to know, that was a new change. Seems fine on my 24" HP, but it is running at a pretty high resolution. I'll clean that up..:up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Good to know, that was a new change. Seems fine on my 24" HP, but it is running at a pretty high resolution. I'll clean that up..:up:

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Oh ok, I'm on a 22" Samsung, 1680 x 1050, so it's a little big and overlaps things it shouldn't.

Thanks man!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smee

Oh ok, I'm on a 22" Samsung, 1680 x 1050, so it's a little big and overlaps things it shouldn't.

Thanks man!

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Alright, I run at 1920 x 1200 and those were rotated text boxes (they just barely fit at this resolution). I nuked em and just kept the labels up above in the regular cells, that should be alot more compatible. :up:

Can the new block be mounted with the old mounting hardwares on 775?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by situman

Can the new block be mounted with the old mounting hardwares on 775?

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The new block comes with all the mounting hardware you need. (i.e. back plate, screws, pro-mount...etc)

But if your asking if you can use your current backplate with the block, then yes I believe you can.
Were they from the Fuzion V1?

Yea I don't like the TR mounting system so I wanted to use the hardware from V1 instead. At the same time I want the temp improvements hahahaa.

Situman, I was told by Danny that the old mount would work on the new block, I will verify for you later and post back. I'm with you, I think the pro mount may not be as good as everyone thinks. When I have time, (haha that's funny as :banana::banana::banana::banana: isn't it?) I hope to determine this.

Thanks a lot. If it is verified, I will need shorter screws hahahaa