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I just bought a nice Thermochill that I got from a wonderful mod on this forum.
I was originally painted Blue with gray primer rad fins.
I was wanting to know if I get some very hot water in the tub and I let the rad soak and that way the external and internal areas of the rad get cleaned.
Hot water will not work on a used radiator because your insides have already oxidized from the exposure to air. Also hot water works best on residue from manufactoring process. Hot water melts the left over solder flux to make your pipes clean. This is not the case with you because most likely its already been cleaned of solder and flux.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenWall
You need to do a 10-15 min vinegar dip. Yes i know your gonna shutter at that word. Dont worry, such a small exposure time will not eat though your tubes.
After you did a vinegar dip you need to rince the insides out, i personally use tap water with a tube attached, and flush the rad free of vinegar.
Then you need to do a distilled flush, where you rince the tap water out with distilled. After that your good to go.
^what he said
Flushing with a tube connected to the faucet works really well, I've done it before. Only catch is to be sure to do a good distilled water rinse to get all the tap water out.
So Naekuh a vinegar rinse is recommended if the radiator has been used and then left idle a while? what ratio vinegar to water?
Are you sure you want to put an acid in your rad?Quote:
Originally Posted by RADCOM
http://www.diy-street.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82166
http://forums.overclockers.co.nz/arc...hp/t-3402.html
http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...s-pumps-2.html
I have a cheap pump with some 3/8 tubing, but I have no barbs for the rad yet.
So your saying some vinegar pumped though the rad for a bit for about 15 minutes, and then some distilled water pumped though after for about an hour?
5% distilled white vinegar at a market.Quote:
Originally Posted by RADCOM
No water, just pour the 5% down your barbs and let it sit for 10 min.
Dont let it sit out too long. The 5% for 10-15min wont hurt your radiator. Make sure you IMEDIATELY FLUSH after youve done your dip, or the vinegar + air = super fast oxidation.
Ignore clueless's post, on the last link the first post the guy has this to say:
"The second type is distilled-vinegar or white-vinegar. This is a grain based vinegar that cleans things really well. It's nearly as transparent like clean filtered water, but with a slight smell and pH. Use this for cleaning the cooling loop or your coffee or espresso machine."
Trust me, ive been recomending this process a lot, and no one has ran into problems with it.
This is what i use on my old rads thats been sitting out for some time:
http://www.heinzvinegar.com/vinegars/whitevinegar.aspx
It's good to hear both sides of the vinegar debate. It's not needed on a new radiator but could certainly be useful in a used one.
That recipe also looks good. Thanks Clue69less and Naekuh.
on a new radiator, all it requires is a hot water flush.
But on a used radiator, its gonna be bad inside. Plus you have no idea how well the previous owner cleaned it, or what additives he used in his coolant.
This is why i recomend a vinegar dip on used eq.
Ok so I will buy some vinegar and use it this weekend to clean the inside, then pump some good distilled water though the inside with a pump.
No how bout dipping the rad in something to clean in between the rad fins.
NO NO NO NO NON ONONONONONONONONOQuote:
Originally Posted by BrokenWall
do not pump vinegar because your rubber seals will melt. :rofl:
Get a funnel at an autostore. And use that to pour it into your rad. And then let it sit there.
Make sure you put barbs and tubing on. about 4 inches on each side, and fill it with vinegar so it reaches half way though the tubing. This way you can be sure its completely submerged. Make sure you tilt from side to side to bleed it.
For cleaning the fins, i just spray it with water. You cant vinegar dip the fins cuz your melt the paint.
Just spray and blow dry. But dont do that when its connected. A blow dryer creates a lot of static electricty so watch out.
Just run regular hot water from your sink thru it and shake it all out.
Then fill with distilled water or boiled water, and the antifreeze or
whatever of your choice.
A spoonfull of tap water(if that much is left in) wont hurt a thing.
To clean the fins a compressor or some canned air should be sufficient..
Hell I have to repaint it, so loosing the paint wont be a problem for me
No, don't. Ignore noekuh's. I was just giving some additional input and it wasn't just one link, it was three. Some of us are accepting of a range of opinion since there are few absolutes in the real world.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Vinegar DOES react with copper, brass, aluminum, etc. That's not my opinion, it's been poven and is easy to reprove. It reacts with SOME surface oxides faster than the native metal, but it still reacts with the native metal. Its not totally selective so you are sacrificing some of the rad itself. People have used vinegar to clean copper for centuries. The larger problem comes about when the buildup in the rad is more severe. In those cases you have to be more thorough or you can end up with clogged passages. At some point in time, if you do the cleaning job adequately on old rads, you can end up causing pinholes.
Since you ignored my links above, I won't bother posting supporting links to this post from the automotive industry or from the advanced cleaning materials industry. Again, these metal oxidation studies are old and the research has been repeated over and over. And before you get your panties in a wad, realize I have not told anyone that they shouldn't use vinegar to clean a rad. But you should know that there are limits to what it can do and that you can cause more harm than good under some circumstances.
Yeah i guess that Noekuh is smarter than those 3 links you posted.:ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clue69Less
just listen to Nae, he knows what the heck hes doing contrary to popular belief
Sand down the paint and tape up the holes and fins and repaint the rad Silver. Then do the following.
Heres what I am going to do.
1) Fill the rad with white vinegar for about 10 minutes (shake it abit)
2) Dump the vinegar out, then wash out a couple times with tap water.
3) after washing out the water, pump distilled water though the rad for about an hour.
To clean the fins.
Soak the rad in some hot water so, then blow out the residue with high pressure air.
then after doing everything, pump water though the rad once again to verify the integrity of the rad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedalmonkey
He seems to know what he is talking about, just tries to be too precise.
Alot of people here do that which is fine but its not rocket science.
Watercooling is childs play too me.
When it comes to cleaning out a radiator just flush some tap water thru it.
Its the qucikest and easyest way.
No need to flush this % of this fluid and that % of that fluid and wait
a certain specified amount of time for it to dry at a specific tempurature
at a specific altitude:shakes:
Then slap it together and and check for leaks.
I either fill it and bleed as most do or pull a vaccum on the sys then fill.
If it holds vaccum then chances are there are no leaks.
But its always a good idea to always check for leaks every time you are at your computer.
Also have seen some here who post pics of their w/c,ed sys with no fasteners
around the barbs. Just the tubing. which is fine.
And have read a post here and there that say (If your gonna
post pics of mixed metal sys) you better IN BOLD LETTERS at the first
sentance say that you have a sacrificial anode. Or put up a
disclaimer:shakes:
*so dont mix metals or your sys will OMG AND BLOW UP*:shakes:
Back to the running tubing with no clamps,zipties,etc.
It fine but if you move or pull on your tubing=swapping ram,messin around
inside your case you can possiably cause a leak.
Just post just shows the level of your knowledge, which isn't much.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
5% White vinegar is sold that way, it has been diluted with water to 5% acidity.
You also missed the point completely on why I posted that notice.
It was to prevent things from blowing up out of control like they did in that topic. If there is a note saying "hey, I'm using an anode made from zinc" in a topic concerning mixed metals, I don't think anybody would care or make a fuss. It also wasn't pointed at anyone in particular.
The rest, well, your just being silly to make yourself seem more important than you are.
Trolls be gone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
There was a note from WS about the anode, i seen it just fine.
Still no one has answered or commented on my statement
about how the automotive industry has mixed metals for
about the last hundred years.
There are way less variables to worry about in computer w/c,ed sys
than an automotive sys.
The two main things are thermal differences and electrolysis.
Oh wait my level of knowledge isnt much:shakes:
Wow i got a fleet of admirers. ROFL..
Trust me on the white vinegar. So far ive been very good with advice on setting up a loop without anyone being unhappy at the outcome.
And to all of you admirers.
Leave me alone.
Ive done enough thread killing for the week come bug me next week when im ready to kill another one.
Listen ALL the VETS on this forum have 1 opinion about mixing metals. Which is NO.
All the new people are saying yes.
Its true post count doesnt mean crap, but experience does. I havent seen anything from the people ranting on me which shows that they own nice hardware or played with nice hardware. Sorry i may sound a bit stuck up, but this is getting out of hand.
Ive ran into corrosion even using redline in my coolant. It smells bad, and its very nasty also foams til no tomorrow.
Corrosion is NOT fun and its NOT NICE. Why even bother risking it when you dont have to.
Why tell people its safe with all these additives, when they dont even need to mix metals to begin with. This i seriously dont understand. There is no thrill in mixing metals. You do it or you dont.
The outcome of mixing metals and not mixing metals is different however. Safe or not safe, theres still a higher % in something going wrong by mixing metals then something going wrong without mixing metals.
Also no mixing metals allows you to use the more reputable companies like D-tek, EK, DD, Swiftech.
If you are the smart one then throw in some advise or criticism to my post
for cleaning out a radiator.
Instead of trying to downplay my knowledge.
Do you know what electrolysis is?
Or how to pull a vaccum on a cooling sys?
You are correct in the procedure for cleaning a heat-exchanger.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Its just not absolutly neseccary to go thru that much trouble.
And i do not admire you at all, you cant tell me anything i dont already know.
WOW dave is gonna have fun cleaning this one out.
*sigh* nice going guys you just killed another thread. I hope your happy.
@OP, stick with the vinegar ignore these wannabe's. Im gonna have to PM a mod about this one.
Your eyes apparently went straight to the bold type because your neglecting what I said in the rest of that post. I suggest you go back and read the whole post.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
..and as for the "lack of voltage within the loop", I forget where I saw it, but someone noted that (at least with 775's) there is some kind of voltage leak once the CPU is locked down. The voltage is actually traveling through the IHS into the CPU block, I'll see if I can dig up the link. Auto's actually use a grounding strap from the engine to chassis, this along with a much higher concentration of anti-corrosive (anti-freeze) is what prevents most problems in autos.
How did we kill it?
We are talking about the clensing of a heat x-changer.
SORRY TO TAKE THE FOCUS FROM THE THREAD
But would it be alright for a couple opinions on how I should clean my used rad.
Anyone is willing to give their instructions on how to get the best cleaning of the interior and exterior of the rad.
I would hate to see that more people have fought about whats the best way, instead of answering my simple question.
I know sirheck and actually he's quite knowledgable. He's pobably plumbed more water cooling systems than most of the people here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I've been a chemist for a long time and I've never heard terminology like "5% acidity". "5% vinegar" just means 95% water plus 5% acetic acid. The pKa of acetic acid is ~4.75 so it's not a vey stong acid - and that, along with it's ease of manufacture from natural products is why it has been used to clean metals for hundreds of years. For comparison, the pKa of nitic acid is about -1.5 or -2 depending on who you believe. Since it is a logarithmic function, you're looking at 6 orders of magnitude difference in dissociation constant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_dissociation_constant
simple answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenWall
If the rad is new, use hot water. <--- This was told to us by Marci directly. PR for thermochill.
If the rad is used use 5% distilled vinegar. and then flush clean.
Sirheck, lemme give you another scenario.
1/2ID tubing + RD-30 + 1/2ID barb.
Safe without clamps or no?
Or how about dual DDC-2 in serial chain one after another + 1/2ID tubing + 1/2ID barbs. Safe or no?
Yes voltage thru the cooling sys is one of the causes of electrolysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I am not sure how much is in a computer w/c,ing sys but i can check tommorow.
I will bring my fluke 88 home.
In a car cooling sys (ASE) says no more than 0.5 volts i believe.
The TSB for that came out years ago and i honestly cant remeber.
The grounds in automotive sys,s is where some of the current comes from.
Yes grounds DO carry current.
The simple way to tell in an automotive sys is to squeeze the hoses, if they crack they are shot, from electrolysis.
Now i wouldnt think a computer sys would do the same for many,many years.
Put's on Mod hat:
Why do you guys hate me so?
I do try to be a nice guy but you guys want to have me in the hospital with a combination of nervous breakdown and carpal tunnel from all this typing.
I will add my 2 cents here and I am far from any aclaimed guru on any part of water cooling but I do live in a part of the country with HEAVY amounts of lime in the water and guess what we use: Heinz White Vinegar.
A cup in the dishwasher once a month, take the showerhead off of the shower in the bathtub and soak it overnight once a month,etc.
Now here's what common sense tells me, not someone elses opinion:
On a new radiator, rinse with hot or warm water for 15-20 minutes, then cold, then rinse it out with distilled water before putting it back into the loop.
On a used radiator.. I'd use a 50-50 mix of vinegar and water for a couple minutes shaking the hell out of it to loosen any crap in it, then flush with cold water for 10 mins then rinse well with distilled and then back into the loop.
This is what I think based on logic, not what I know so follow what you feel is right but JEEZ don't fight over it.
It just isn't worth my fingers!
Ok mr. specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
What thickness tubing?
Give me the restriction properties of the blocks.
What all is cooled? NB,CPU,GPU,Memory,etc.
Are you runnign 25% anti-freeze and 75% water-oh wait its distilled water isnt it.
Whats the altitude?
Is it green or red cause red is always faster:shakes:
Man you guys who have to be 110% precise are the ones
who are really just learning to understand cooling.:yepp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
:rofl:
Thats pretty damn good:up:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
Ummmm 1/2ID 3/4OD Tygon R3603 tubing.
RD-30 @ 25V -> PA120.3 -> ApogeeGTX Copper top -> MCW30 -> EK250
Straight distilled.
According to my GPS about 113ft.
how does green or red have anything to do with it?
And no im asking you a serious question. IS it SAFE or NOT? Why you dodging the question?
Man you guys who have to be 110% precise are the ones
who are really just learning to understand cooling.
Thank you..Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
To the rest:
Just so you know where I'm coming from.
I've done a grand total of one water cooled system.
I came to this section last summer and read and got great advice from many of you. It is greatly appreciated. I took my time, used all the info that made sense to me and followed your leads.
I set this system up last August, it runs at 100% load 24/7 and hasn't been touched in the last nine months.. Now keep in mind that this uses 2-145w cpu's, clovertowns at 3157 and they aren't G0's but a mix of a B1 and a B3 so there is REAL heat being pumped into this system but it takes it and performs well:
http://www.xtremesystems.com/modules...wcontent&id=48
so by you not answering the answer is no its not safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirheck
:D
Thank you, thats all you needed to say.
And yes its only cooling, but that cooling system is supporting expensive hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Thats what i was impliying.
New people to watercooling who slap tubes on with no straps,clamps,etc.
Like the ones they see in pics here think (ok cool).
Then they move,mess around (have to repeat myself-again):shakes:
inside their case and disrupt/dislodge a hose and BAM a leak.
But then again its thier own risk and they should be aware of that.
It's all relative. I'd hate to have to replace my PC parts. But I've built WC systems for reactors sitting in high vacuum systems with ~100K$ of turbo pumps immediately below and tens of thousands of dollars worth of targets that have to be kept cool by the loop or they are trashed. That's quite a bit more expensive than the typical high end enthusiast PC. Not only that - if you fcuk up and kill your PC, it's a bummer and you replace it when you can afford it. Dump water onto a $50K maglev turbo pump and you just might get fired. WC'ed PCs are for the most part, a hobby.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
OK Fine guys, have my thread, I will just try what movieman said, I am just tired of trying to read though this arguement, thanks.
Have fun, I am ending my thread since I didn't get a great amount of help though proving stupid theories and arguements about this and that.
Im terribly sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenWall
As i said, go for the vinegar dip, and you'll be good to go. Make sure you flush your radiator good b4 looping it up, and make sure you got all the vinegar out or your insides will oxidize within a matter of 1 day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
I'm sorry you feel you didn't get help. I thought you got loads of advice. Many questions like yours do not have a cut and dried answer and regardless of the solution you pick to solve a problem, it will involve compromises. Look at naekuh's comment above - he recommends vinegar to clean the rad but then says to get it all out or the insides will oxidize within a day. Think about that. If a little bit of residual vinegar is enough to trash your rad, then what do you think is happening to the insides when you have it full of vinegar? Again, it's a compromise solution and in many instances is an agreeable one. But you should know that chemical cleaning metals with acids results in a chemical reaction with both the gunk you're trying to get rid of and the base metal you want to preserve.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenWall
sirheck and Clue69Less, stop trying to be too smart and nitpick everything... While I might believe you are knowledgeable in your respective areas, it's not always easy to translate into watercooling. Having a good theorical knowledge is a good thing but having a lot of pratical experience is better.
For example, about mixing metals, which both of you said it ok, can you give me ONE component made from aluminium which perform much better than the current accepted best ? This is precisely why the experienced users will always say NO to mixing metals because there is PLENTY of choices without ever using aluminium. Do you know the word KISS (not the common word but the acronym) ?
About the vinegar rinse, we don't care about the chemisty theory, only on actual effects. We all know leaving vinegar sitting for long will cause damage but it's also a potent cleaner to remove oxidization so with some care and following some rules, it's ok. That's what we are trying to explain here in the thread until both of you barge with your luggage of knowledge and a small purse of experience.
NaeKuh have a boatload of experience, toying with a lot of parts for a few years so if he say so or so, it's usually correct.
Well put Xilikon,Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilikon
The end of the day its a hobby, a bit of fun and a bit of showing off. The day i take it too serous is the day i want to be payed for doing it.
Oh ya i'd go for the white vinegar too, but if your not happy with that there are products out there designed for loop cleaning, hey you pay ya money and take your chances
I've taken to using a pressure washer. It certainly works.
Jesus Christ people.
Chill. Pill.
Recommending this for closure, as OP has stated that the question has been answered to their satisfaction and this is getting so off-topic.
Clue69Less, seriously, was that necessary?
Guys as informative as it is, all I can say is... take it easy people.
I love the perspectives you people have supplied and it definitely has been added to my w/c knowledge ^^.
Too bad you're being so incredibly sensitive that you construe "people" to refer to "me specifically".Quote:
Originally Posted by Clue69Less
Mods? Please?
For Everyone...
now lets get over this petty issue...
I'm done with that thread as well. If anyone cannot take a constructive criticism and resort to insults to make a point, take a chill pill, sit back and count how much people is around with a PhD in engineering, thermodynamics, chemistry, bla bla then learn to Keep It Simple S***** (that's what I mean about the KISS).
I vote for a mod to close this thread as well ;)
That's as far as it goes.
Stop the crapping and flaming, please.
Clue69Less :
watch your tone, some of your comments towards others were very rude and unnecessary.
Thread will be cleaned up.
Cleaned up a little bit and thread has been reopened.
Keep it nice, gentlemen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilikon
I was not nitpicking anything.
I was the one saying some here are being Too nitpicky.
I always said that you guys are correct that mixing metals isnt a good
idea, (once again) as i said over and over its not as bad as some make
it out to be.
My luggage of knowledge and SMALL PURSE of experience only goes back to
the late 80,s.
I have only messed with just a few thousand cooling systems.
Guess thats not enough for some.
guys.... just stop the flaming/ fight or whatever. Anyways, what i'd do is put some vinegar in and shake and let it sit for 15 minutes, flush it with boiling/hot distilled/tap water for about an hour and i think you'd be okay.
Man I take the old lady to the Dr.'s and go to do a small job and the thread goes to hell???
Listen folks, advice is a funny thing. It's freely offered BUT no one has to take it.
My comments on vinegar could be 100000% wrong and thats why I tossed in the disclaimer.
The last thing that is needed is people fighting over differences of opinion.
You guys know I do DC work correct?
The best bang for the dollar there is a Q6600 setup BUT I run my dual socket machines that cost 4 times as much but don't do 4 times more.
Different strokes my friends.
If someone wants to run AL and copper together make a simple point about galvanic corrosion and then drop it.
You made the point and gave the advice but no sense in beating someone over the head about it.
Remember, friends first huh? Life is too short to fight over the small stuff.
AMEN!Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
might i add, sometimes the advice may be the best advice ever, but the tone in which it is delivered can make it bounce off on deaf ears...