Danger Den CPX-PRO Pump previewed..

I love this testing stuff, especially when I get a chance to check out something that hasn't even completely hit the shelves yet.:yepp:

Special thanks to Jeremy from Danger Den for providing me with a sample to test, I gave it the full meal deal of testing including the regular Total Head vs Flow rate curve, Power Consumption (Which is something it really shines in), Efficiency, and Sound Level (Also a very strong point)

What is it you might ask?

It's the DD CPX-1's BIGGER...and STRONGER Brother!..:D

Here is my full review:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/Dang...mp-Review.html

And a couple of samples:
Laing DDC 3.2 on the left, and the DD CPX-PRO on the right
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/...-CPX-Pro-1.jpg

Interior reveals a spiral shaped volute...woohoo! And a Ceramic Shaft..nice!
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/...-CPX-Pro-3.jpg

And a side by side power comparison with the stock DDC 3.2:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/...-PumpCompa.png

And here is my youtube video sound check:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNDcHojyr0w

Cheers!:toast2:
Martin

As much as I want to like that pump, the impeller looks cheaper than a $2 ho.

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

As much as I want to like that pump, the impeller looks cheaper than a $2 ho.

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That's probably why it has more of a linear performance curve. But the more important part is the wearing surfaces. The actual shaft is ceramic like the RD-30 is, so while it doesn't look very fancy, I think durability should be there.

The RD-30 by contrast has a nice pressure oriented impeller, then they use a lesser efficient circular volute. I was happy to see the volute shape, and it shows in how it's doing so well in the low power consumption department.

The pump won't outperform a DDC 3.2 with a good top on it, but it's also about half the price that setup would run you.

I don't know how to interpret your graphs because I have no frame of reference as to what is good and what is bad...:p: Very nice review though. Would you say this pump is better than the MCP655?

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Originally Posted by 003

I don't know how to interpret your graphs because I have no frame of reference as to what is good and what is bad...:p: Very nice review though. Would you say this pump is better than the MCP655?

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Sorry, I should have included this one too:
http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/img/...-PumpComp2.png

Keep in mind this is a "STOCK" DDC 3.2, adding a top will give the DDC the edge.

Overall it will be similar in performance but the D5 and DDC with tops with have a slight edge in power, but the big bonus here is the lower heat dump and sound.

After I get my D5 retested, I'll be able to nail that down better..

It's a good third option I think. While the CPX-1 was really suited to really low restriciton loops or single block loops, this pump has over 3X that amount of power and pretty close to a stock DDC 3.2. It'll probably appeal to those looking for a silent pump with good overall power and lower cost.

As always, Nice review Martin!! :up: :D

Question, in the last graph (right above this post), does the MC-TDX had a nozzel in it? or is it just a stock MC-TDX?

How well do you think this pump would do with an MCR320, Fuzion w/Quad Nozzel and an MCW30 NB block?

My system spec's in sig.

Danny is certainly not going to be happy that Danger Den beat him to the punch... he has been telling me about this thing for quite a while now. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the performance curve looks promising... If the noise level during operation is anywhere near the dB-1/CPX-1, then I'd think that we have a real winner here :)

That pump is awesome!

Very nice review!

When get your D5 tested..

Could you make a graph where you compere flow estimation between a setup like this. DDC w/o top, D5 and CPX-RPO and then maybe a performance vs price compare something :D

Hope you get it ;)

so this thing is pretty much equivalent to a ddc with a top except more quiet?

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Originally Posted by smee

As always, Nice review Martin!! :up: :D

Question, in the last graph (right above this post), does the MC-TDX had a nozzel in it? or is it just a stock MC-TDX?

How well do you think this pump would do with an MCR320, Fuzion w/Quad Nozzel and an MCW30 NB block?

My system spec's in sig.

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That's the MC-TDX, it does not have a nozzle, although I keep hoping they may come out with a kit for them. It's a low restriction block, pretty similar, just a touch lower pressure drop than a Fuzion without washer/without nozzle.

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

simple things works best, no balancing impellers like DDC rotors

as always Martin you did it again :) love the gate valve on work bench

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Thanks to you for the sound level meter..;)

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Originally Posted by Petra

Danny is certainly not going to be happy that Danger Den beat him to the punch... he has been telling me about this thing for quite a while now. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the performance curve looks promising... If the noise level during operation is anywhere near the dB-1/CPX-1, then I'd think that we have a real winner here :)

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Not sure when these will make it retail, but they are coming. The sound level is pretty good I think. I've never tested the CPX-1, missed my chance when Naekuh let me borrow his and I ran out of time. I only measure 3-4 db over my 47db ambient and that was only about 6" away, so pretty quiet overall.

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Originally Posted by Tw1st3d

That pump is awesome!

Very nice review!

When get your D5 tested..

Could you make a graph where you compere flow estimation between a setup like this. DDC w/o top, D5 and CPX-RPO and then maybe a performance vs price compare something :D

Hope you get it ;)

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Sure, but I need to finish my DDC 3.1 testing first.

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Originally Posted by WhiteFireDragon

so this thing is pretty much equivalent to a ddc with a top except more quiet?

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Not quite, it similar to a DDC 3.2 without top. Once you put a top on a DDC 3.2, the DDC 3.2 with top is going to be more powerful. But the D5 and DDC 3.2 with top are really more powerfull than you need on alot of systems, I've heard a few occasions where folks get better performance with a D5 on lower settings. This isn't normal, but it happens when the higher pump heat dump at higher settings causes more harm than the added flow rate thermal improvements. Heat dump is the tricky factor and plays a huge role in pump selection. This one's similar to a stock DDC 3.2, which would be more powerful than a DDC 3.1 and it has high efficiency.

looks like an aquarium pump modified for using barbs... there are similar DIY Aquarium to Liquid Cooling pumps in use here in the Philippines...

Looking good for a simple loop setup that most "normal" people run ;) For those who cater to the extremes like us, it may be useful for a 2nd or 3rd loop and I would like to get one for my 2nd loop. Space is a negative point in that case since I have very little clearance that only a DDC 3.2 with stock top is able to squeeze.

What about two of them? Since its cheaper I honestly think you should also test 2 of them vs a DDC, DDC Topped, and a D5. I mean two of the CPX's is like $5 more than a Vario D5, and slightly cheaper than a single topped DDC, so its a viable comparison imho.

when is it coming out?

I wonder how reliable these things are.

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Originally Posted by smee

How well do you think this pump would do with an MCR320, Fuzion w/Quad Nozzel and an MCW30 NB block?

My system spec's in sig.

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I'm sure it would do fine, that extreme system above under 1 GPM is about as restrictive as any system could be. The Fuzion with the 3.6mm nozzle is the most restrictive CPU block I've tested, and the Fuzion GFX is the most restrictive GPU block...doesn't get much more restrictive than that and it still manages ok flow rates. Most normal systems would see plenty of flow rate.

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Originally Posted by Lurid

What about two of them? Since its cheaper I honestly think you should also test 2 of them vs a DDC, DDC Topped, and a D5. I mean two of the CPX's is like $5 more than a Vario D5, and slightly cheaper than a single topped DDC, so its a viable comparison imho.

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You could, but I wouldn't do it unless you really needed the pumping power. I'll have this pump in the next flow rate estimator so you can experiment with up to three in series to see what it does.

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Originally Posted by begrip

when is it coming out?

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I don't know, they are still doing some testing, so I have no idea. This is more of a prototype, so there could be some revisions before they are rolling production.:shrug:

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Originally Posted by situman

I wonder how reliable these things are.

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It'll be one of those, only time will tell, but the CPX-1 seems to have good reliability. This one does have a heafty motor weight and a ceramic shaft. No long term experience, but the construction materials used in the wearing parts is similar to other pumps that do well for long term use.

Man those propeller style impellers just make me cringe though... it one cracks, or if it gets off balance... I much prefer the iwaki/ddc style impeller for some reason.

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

Man those propeller style impellers just make me cringe though... it one cracks, or if it gets off balance... I much prefer the iwaki/ddc style impeller for some reason.

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+1

ive had my share with those impellers in the fish hobby world.

There not the most reliable of things, however on some of the pumps ive had, they lasted a good many years under 24/7. :T

But scott, im willing to bet the impeller on this thing would outlast per say, the average DDC-2. :rofl:

What I've been reading on pump design is the type of impeller is specifically chosen for the type of fluid. More open and simple impeller like this perform better and more reliably in conditions where you might have solids from a pond or algae in an aquarium where a very dense type of impeller would have trouble plugging.

Just like radiators, we're getting the technology from a hand me down industry that wasn't water cooling computers..:) I don't think any of our pumps we use today were only designed for water cooling PC's.

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

What I've been reading on pump design is the type of impeller is specifically chosen for the type of fluid. More open and simple impeller like this perform better and more reliably in conditions where you might have solids from a pond or algae in an aquarium where a very dense type of impeller would have trouble plugging.

Just like radiators, we're getting the technology from a hand me down industry that wasn't water cooling computers..:) I don't think any of our pumps we use today were only designed for water cooling PC's.

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no but even fish hobby pumps were offsprings of big industrial pumps who are from the makers of liang and iwaki. :yepp:

uhh.. hope that makes sense martin. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

no but even fish hobby pumps were offsprings of big industrial pumps who are from the makers of liang and iwaki. :yepp:

uhh.. hope that makes sense martin. :rofl:

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Yeah, the Iwaki probably has the most pressure oriented impeller design I've seen.:up:

I am liking this pump, although the size is a bit off-putting compared to the DDC w/top. Of course considering most DDC's with tops cost $100+, I may be interested in this for future builds. I am all about savin' money. The silence part as well.

I tried to find a comparison but only saw the D-Tek mentioned once.
BUT

It looks so much like the D-Tek dB-1,
I have had those pumps and loved them,
they were very quiet and great for single loop setup's.
And seemed to have good head pressure.

So how do they compare,to the Danger Den CPX-PRO
then look the same, cost the same....
hows the performance,


My favorite is the
Laing DDC-3.2 with the XSPC - Acrylic Reservoir ,
it's just a great all around set-up.
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

NaeKuh, respect the DDC maker and spell Laing right ;)

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Originally Posted by Xilikon

NaeKuh, respect the DDC maker and spell Laing right ;)

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LAING :rofl:

happy?

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

LAING :rofl:

happy?

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Thanks, just a small pet peeve of mine :ROTF:

What if you replaced that plastic propeller with a lightweight metal instead? Slightly heavier yes. But it would never break. And the added rigidity might be a plus in water pressure

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Originally Posted by Eternalightwith

What if you replaced that plastic propeller with a lightweight metal instead? Slightly heavier yes. But it would never break. And the added rigidity might be a plus in water pressure

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depending on the metal would cause havok in your system. :T

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

LAING :rofl:

happy?

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Artie Laing?
http://vegasblog.latimes.com/vegas/i..._iiyezcinc.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by systemviper

I tried to find a comparison but only saw the D-Tek mentioned once.
BUT

It looks so much like the D-Tek dB-1,
I have had those pumps and loved them,
they were very quiet and great for single loop setup's.
And seemed to have good head pressure.

So how do they compare,to the Danger Den CPX-PRO
then look the same, cost the same....
hows the performance,


My favorite is the
Laing DDC-3.2 with the XSPC - Acrylic Reservoir ,
it's just a great all around set-up.
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

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The D-Tek db-1 = CPX-1
This is just the bigger version of that, probably on the order of 3X or a bit more strong.

And yep, the DDCs and D5's are great pumps. I feel bad for the industry a few years ago before the DDCs and D5's came along, there was nothing but low head pond pumps. Those were the days where large ID tubing and large open channel blocks ruled. Now we're getting spoiled with all these good pressure pumps.:up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eternalightwith

What if you replaced that plastic propeller with a lightweight metal instead? Slightly heavier yes. But it would never break. And the added rigidity might be a plus in water pressure

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Well since you can't really do much in the way of a custom top for this one, who's first up for designing a new impeller. The only problem is the maginet is cast into the impeller, so you'd have to do the same. It wouldbe hard to pencil out, but it would be cool.:D

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Now we're getting spoiled with all these good pressure pumps.:up:

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Spoiled?!?!?!?!?!

martin you so know if there was a pump which performed better then the RD-30 without it being the size of a small baby, id buy it in a second.

I want more!

Why not make a ceramic impeller? : P

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

Spoiled?!?!?!?!?!

martin you so know if there was a pump which performed better then the RD-30 without it being the size of a small baby, id buy it in a second.

I want more!

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You know you want that MD-70Z..you might have to run braded hose, but you'd like that..;) The RD-30 is a baby compared to that thing...:D

Ahh..while your at it put two in series...just be sure to string about a dozen PAs together to take on the added heat..:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

You know you want that MD-70Z..you might have to run braded hose, but you'd like that..;) The RD-30 is a baby compared to that thing...:D

Ahh..while your at it put two in series...just be sure to string about a dozen PAs together to take on the added heat..:)

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While you're at it, don't forget the raincoat in case you forgot to tighten a barb :rofl:

any new info on this pump such as release date?

i emailed DD and the said 3-4 weeks :)

I'm looking forward to this pump. Jeremy said they had small issues during manufacturing start so they will need a few weeks more until it's available. The impeller looks a lot like the Eheim ones.

another delay :(

3-5 weeks

Hi everybody... i m seriously thinking about this CPX-PRO pump.
I look for silence and silence. i m sure this pump is powerfull for common operation. (sorry my english is dirty)

Is the DDC 3.2 + Top noisier than the CPX-PRO ? and compared to the D5 #3 or #4 ? I know the DDC 3.1 sound, and it runs ok for my ears.

I m a beginner in WC and i know there are PROs in this topic so...i ask ;)

Thanks waterboys ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgabber

Hi everybody... i m seriously thinking about this CPX-PRO pump.
I look for silence and silence. i m sure this pump is powerfull for common operation. (sorry my english is dirty)

Is the DDC 3.2 + Top noisier than the CPX-PRO ? and compared to the D5 #3 or #4 ? I know the DDC 3.1 sound, and it runs ok for my ears.

I m a beginner in WC and i know there are PROs in this topic so...i ask ;)

Thanks waterboys ^^

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I have one of each of these pumps in 2 different systems (ddc 3.2 with XSPC top in one and cpx-pro in the other) and, in my case, the ddc is much louder.

I did some investigation from several US and EU forum and i have a question about the DD-CPX-PRO here.

The only strange alien i found is the DD-CPX-PRO feature 800 l/h
I never see a DDC 3.2 + Top running this flow rate...

So Martin says a DDC 3.2 + Top will perform better than the CPX-PRO..
It's strange... even if the DDC have 0,7 more pressure.

Huhhhh ??? are they attacking yet !? ;)

Martin's testing data that was included with his estimator:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8682/quicklh9.png

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Originally Posted by Vapor

Martin's testing data that was included with his estimator:

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ok ok.. well it's estimator.

I m actually using a Laing 3.2 + EK top V2 (better than xspc top)
and i never reach 4 gpm. (low restrictive loop with x2 gpu + MCR220)
I m pretty sure that if i play the pump without any waterblocks, i will not reach 800 l/h

Mathematics are nice... but in real world ... hmmm
I have doubt with this diagram, no doubt about Martin skills but there is an Alien somewhere ^^

so the mcp355 is still way better than the cpx1pro... what about noise? martin said that it is the quitest pump he has ever tested, but the 355 is low noise too. will the difference be noticeable?

Concerning the noise, i would be ok with Martin and other tester. the CPX-PRO with its mecanics seems to be quieter with low heat. i can believe that.
Note that the new EK Top V2 makes the DDC like "dead silence" (i have one and it's amazing)

But about the Flow... i continue to look for an alien ^^
I m a sofware engineer, i build many set-up tools for the clinical industries. Be sure that mathematics are often bypass the reality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgabber

ok ok.. well it's estimator.

I m actually using a Laing 3.2 + EK top V2 (better than xspc top)
and i never reach 4 gpm. (low restrictive loop with x2 gpu + MCR220)
I m pretty sure that if i play the pump without any waterblocks, i will not reach 800 l/h

Mathematics are nice... but in real world ... hmmm
I have doubt with this diagram, no doubt about Martin skills but there is an Alien somewhere ^^

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The data is real data that he tested that is embedded into a system-flow estimator....that's how I have it (and how anybody can download the estimator themselves and graph any comparison of TESTED P&Q curves they want). It's an estimator because it takes real data from pumps and components and estimates flowrates as you combine them. The data itself is not an estimation--just what the Excel spreadsheet does when it combines the two different types of data is an estimation. FWIW, I did not combine the data in any way, I merely graphed the real data!

And of course you don't reach 4GPM. You probably wouldn't even reach 4GPM with three of your pumps and only a few feet of tubing and a radiator :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vapor

The data is real data that he tested that is embedded into a system-flow estimator....that's how I have it (and how anybody can download the estimator themselves and graph any comparison of TESTED P&Q curves they want). It's an estimator because it takes real data from pumps and components and estimates flowrates as you combine them. The data itself is not an estimation--just what the Excel spreadsheet does when it combines the two different types of data is an estimation. FWIW, I did not combine the data in any way, I merely graphed the real data!

And of course you don't reach 4GPM. You probably wouldn't even reach 4GPM with three of your pumps and only a few feet of tubing and a radiator :rolleyes:

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Ok Vapor...now i understand ^^

It's a very common misconception with pumps and pump specs. Alot of pumps don't give you any sort of pump curve to look at. They will only give you the maximum flow rate which is the theoretical maxium without any pressure. They also often give you a maximum head pressure which is at 0 flow or cutoff head pressure. The result is they they are giving you the two extreme points at each end of the curve.

Unfortunately it's two points that you will never operate under. Give the estimator a try and you can better see the interaction between the system's pressure drop curve and the pump PQ curve.

When testing pumps as I did in this case, I recorded actual pressures at specific flow rates and varied the amount of resistance (gate valve) to control and distribute those measurement points over as much of the curve as possible. It's the only way to really get a measurement over the entire usable range of a pump and important to see because some pumps have a nice curve like the DDC while others are more linear like the CPX-pro. If your pressure drop curve happens to fall where there is a nice bulge in the curve, it's good. It's also possible for a pump to have a higher maximum pressure and flow rate specs and perform worse than another pump if the two curves are very different in between those points.

Anyhow, don't look at maximum flow rate as a means to determine pump performance. If you do that with the D5 and DDC, you would come to the conclusion (inappropriately) that the D5 is the better pump. That's only one point and doesn't tell you much by itself. Specs are also unfortunately often wrong. For example the MCP-655 Basic pump and the MCP-655 Vario according to most vendors are exactly the same. They are not, the vario model is a good amount stronger than the basic because the basic model is crippled and stuck at setting 4 where the vario can run to setting 5. I noted these inconsistencies to Swiftech several times, pointing them to the Laing docementation that concludes this.

Here we are over a year later and no change. They simply don't care and people will continue to make bad decisions based on pump specs.

Bottom line, pump performance is more complex than a simple max flow rate and don't trust pump specs anyhow, they are often wrong.

What a great post so eloquently put..............as always cheers Martin :up:

OK Martin, i m ok with your conclusion. When you have to buy some liquid cooling elements, you know it s expensive. So people ask to others, sometimes too much, but the goal is legitim : spend Dollars/Euros and take the good decisions. The marketing doesn't help anymore.
But it's time to order now. More i read topics, more i discuss with XS forums members, i take good time for sure ^^ but more i m disturbed by seeing opposit voice about several concepts ...then more i think it's hard to be good in my choice ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by redgabber

OK Martin, i m ok with your conclusion. When you have to buy some liquid cooling elements, you know it s expensive. So people ask to others, sometimes too much, but the goal is legitim : spend Dollars/Euros and take the good decisions. The marketing doesn't help anymore.
But it's time to order now. More i read topics, more i discuss with XS forums members, i take good time for sure ^^ but more i m disturbed by seeing opposit voice about several concepts ...then more i think it's hard to be good in my choice ^^

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Yes, it is difficult when it comes to choosing between different products and there is conflicting information out there, but it's all difficult for a good reason. The reality of watercooling products these days is that most of them are very very good and most of them perform so well and so close together that you really have a hard time measuring the difference between them.

This results in testing results that conflict with each other, but those differences are usually within a few degrees which is often within errors of testing. These are still good tests, they keep the manufactures striving for more no matter how small the gains are.

In the end, your decision will more than likely lead you to success as there isn't too many wrong decisions. You could probably randomly choose several dozen different systems together with randomly selected parts and chances are they would all perform within a few degrees difference if the radiator size and fans were the same.

My general recommendation for water cooling parts would be this:
-Install the largest radiator you can and/or multiple smaller ones.
-Don't mix aluminum and copper/brass in the same loop
-Use distilled water and some sort of biocide for coolant and UV tubing and avoid the dye problems.
-Be religious about clamping or smaller tubing on larger fittings and leak testing.
-Have fun.

Note, there's nothing about which flavor/brand. Pick the parts that make YOU happy, it's really hard to do wrong these days as long as you'r not mixing aluminum or messing around with dyes and your careful about installation/leak testing.