what is this about??
http://www.techzonept.com/showthread.php?t=262752
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what is this about??
http://www.techzonept.com/showthread.php?t=262752
I dont see how this is cheat, they have great flow (be course of the hole) but still they manage too beat every other rad. in temps.
Other brands could do the same, if they can hold the temps down.
oh wow.. thats not right.. "scratches chin" i doubt that was purposeful
none the less +1 for cutting open a thermochill -1 for a hole :slapass:
How is that cheating?
Where are the rules on how to make a radiator?
If that hole was on purpose, and it does what that thread suggests, more power to Thermochill on a brilliant design that paid off.
yeah i don't get how this is cheating???
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by biftek.
I dont see the problem
i think people would consider it cheating b/c we never knew :shakes:Quote:
Originally Posted by disruptfam
I guess it is true that water can bypass the baffle. However, despite that, the Thermochill radiator dissipates more heat than other radiators.
looks kinda sneaky lol but fair play to em. it performs well so...
There are no rules no guidelines on how to make a rad,shouldn't matter how they made it as long as it performs well.
This for a flow winner then :D :D :D
http://www.viscool.com/scripts/produ...05501pasiv.JPG
.
QFT! :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoffey
You don't know what’s in a tin of beans until you open them so how on earth can this be classed as sneaky in any way shape or form - Thermochill has been around for a long time now so more fool us for not opening the can.
Personally i think this is a manufacturing error and its not meant to be like that but I could be wrong and I’ll cut one open if the need arises but I’m sure all the major players will have by now :shrug:
plus the HUGE HOLE is really very small. All thermochill rads have them and they still take more heat wattage than any other rad out there. they flow well because of the tube size and the angles in the rad as well.
:Edit: most thermochill rads Martinm and some others on this forum looked at all had the hole, its just a common manufacturing flaw thru all the thermochill rads. :Edit:
...iandh watches as all XS members start frantically trying to fill the hole with bondo, epoxy, etc to gain .5C lower temps. :rolleyes:
Or maybe someone starts selling three different sizes of nozzles? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by iandh
I don't think it's a "FLAW" but more a design characteristic. Why all the fuss? If you don't like it replace your PA rad with a MCR. Yeah it might not cool as well have have a ton more pressure drop but it won't have a small gap in the divider.
I just got a new 120.3 and I checked it to see how big it was. It's so small that I don't think its even effecting temps as water will mostly go to the path of least resistance. TC also doesn't have to disclose anything about their radiator design. I'm willing to bet if you where to seal the divider that pressure drop will increase and the temp's may only go down .2*C.
The only thing that bothers me about that hole is that it doesn't seem like it would get a ton of flow, so solder will just sit in there. No matter how much you flush it, I still think solder is going to be in there. Might explain some cloudy tubing?
That extra squeeze space could be just part of a well done design that doesn't allow full load on the pump but still utilizes the master design of the thermal cooling fins.
Or if the water starts going low or the rad is run is a weird position it could help ,
Or it could help the priming of the system without impacting temps.
There is probally a formula for it like .....
m = t /(s �du/dy) = Force/(Area x Velocity/Length) = mlt-2/(l2�lt-1/ l) = l-1mt-1, that is [cm-1g sec-1]. :ROTF:
Isn't that a space between the tank and the case?
*grabs popcorn and sits down to watch with iandh*Quote:
Originally Posted by iandh
FYI, my quick numbers look at why I wouldn't worry about it.
For example on my E6600 CPU only loop(125 watt heatload), lets take a look at the PA 120.3's performance relative to flow rate using the c/w curves.
If I extract the c/w value for 1.5 GPM then lower flow rate to 1.0 GPM
The difference on the PA120.3 with nexus fans at 12V is
1.5GPM = 3.97 water/air dela
1.0GPM = 4.06 water/air delta
So even if you were loosing 33% of your flow rate, your net difference is .09C.
Now look at the leak in the plate, probably what .5mm x 10mm (5 square mm)? Now look at the flow tubes, 2mm by 19mm x 12each (456 square mm) give or take. So the net sectional area relative percentage is 1% or some low single digit number.
If it takes 33% loss in flow to make a .09C difference and we probably really only have 1-2% of loss, I wouldn't waste your time patching anything..:shrug:
share the popcorn PIGS! :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoffey
*joining andy*
cheating...rofl!
Write thermochill and ask? Or head over to their forums and ask? Personaly I couldn't care less as long as it performs the best, there isn't a problem, would be alot worse if they had put alu in there.. Or startet to test them with jet engines and 500 degree water..
This has already been discussed on XS. Start @ post #33 of this topic. In the end, this is a pointless discussion because the TC's are still kicking everyone else in the arse with low/mid RPM fans, low pressure drop and total overall heat dissipation.
I wonder how many radiator companies are now going to use this idea.
thermochills are over rated and overpriced.
:ROTF: I think Feser just found their first rad customer. :ROTF:Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
Sometimes I wonder if you just post to postQuote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
Same is a ferrari, people still buy them for a reason..Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
It is in german. But it has been said on the aquatuning site for a long time.
http://www.aquatuning.de/product_inf...ator-G3-8.html
Nice "cheat". I have just ordered a PA120.3 to use next to my PA120.2 :D
Ok fair enough they still do great with the temps and all...
BUT the point where this becomes a cheat is in tests like Martin did (martins liquid lab) to check out the Flow. Ofcourse there are no rules in making those radiators BUT the flow drop is only low on TC's because they use this sneaky trick.
Now if for example Feser would do the same they would kick some ass in the flow charts because feser is already nearly at the level of TC "WITHOUT" using this trick.
And let's be reasonable, the reason that you buy a TC is because of his heat qualities AND his flow qualities. And now you are just putting a lot more money on the table for JUST cooling (which is only a little better then the rest).
I hope i made my point because i'm still only a dutch guy from amsterdam :D
have you cut open a feser rad for a look then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Remcokatz
@ remcokatz. did you not read martinm's post. water will follow the path of least resistance. unless something is blocking the tubes thru the acctual rad very very little water will go thru the hole. The fact is the thermochill even with this "uncooled, unrestricted water" beats every other rad company in flow and heat disiapation as tested so far.
Argh! You beat me to it by a day :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Those people crying "cheat" can try patching one up and do a before/after test on flowrate and temp :D
At the very worst, I'll just say its a lousy quality control imperfection
i'm talking with martin from feser on a daily base ... i don't believe he would lie to meQuote:
Originally Posted by weihk
For crying out loud, guys.... This is the second thread I've seen on this since the announcement of the Feser X-changer.
There is no conspiracy, and there is no cheat. It's a design choice that was made likely to simplify filling/draining, as well as lower restriction a little bit. It doesn't affect your performance, and if it does, obviously Thermochill made the decision that the effect on performance is outweighed by the improved flow rate.
If a toilet paper company finds a way to use less paper to produce the same length roll of TP, while maintaining pillowy softness, is it a hack? Are they cheating? You still get to wipe your *** the same number of times with it.
It's a stupid analogy, but the point is, your Thermochill radiator performs the way it performs. Until proven otherwise, that's the best in the industry. It has a gap that allows water to pass from one side to the other without actually going through the tubes, and it has great flowrate. There are the facts.
Maybe initially it was a mistake (like with the FuZion, the gap between the midplate that improved flow but decreased performance by about .5-1 degree), but I'm sure they noticed (Cathar's mama didn't raise no fool), tested, and determined that it was a fair trade-off.
LOL... It seems a lot of people forget that water take the path of least resistance and Martin calculated that. the performance difference is almost nil, even within the tight error margin.
lol,,,,, since when is being the best, over rated?Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
maybe de-crowned by the Feser but it's also $40 more
My god, ThermoChill are using hacks and aimbots - Let's ban them.
ThermoChill have obviously made this design decision which probably results in a tradeoff between two things. (Flow restriction and cooling.) Despite this, they are still on top. THAT is why people like myself use ThermoChill radiators.
ThermoChill make excellent products and have equally excellent customer service. This is not a "cheat", it is merly part of their design.
From what I've heard they are only overpriced here in NA because of import fees, and we're lucky to be getting them at the price we pay... evidently the profit margin is microscopic.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeStSiDePLaYa
That said, I am a cheapskate SOB so I typically will go with MCR320's. I do love Thermochill rads though, besides the hokey paint.
Something in my body is resisting to listen to you... you are bashing firefox man :'(Quote:
Originally Posted by yngndrw
haha i'd rather put a custom heatsink from you on my 8800gt then a waterblock attached to ANY radiator :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by iandh
I'm starting to think that all the ppl screaming the TC is using this as a hack are working for Feser/Swiftech/HWL/Coolingworks in some capacity. With the math provided by Martin and the sound reasoning by Xilikon in the link I provided, there is very little anyone can say to make A SMALL GAP (and not the 1/2" tubing some of you would have us believe) sound like the reason the TC's flow so well. Besides, it's still cools better than any other rad per dBA.
I do not work for feser neither did i get this info from feser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I found that thermochill cheat article myself while i was looking on some cooling forums.
So yes i do like feser but NO i'm not an idiot that isn't open for debate. If you guys give me a solid reason why it is not a cheat i will listen to it and most likely say your right :yepp:
Because right now everyone thinks they are right because that is what they believe in... That might also be the problem with this so called "thermochill cheat" because there are no regulations.. but if i look at the trick used by tc, the first thing comes to my mind is "FAUL PLAY".
tell you what, go buy 3 TC rad, cut them all open and see if all of them have the same hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remcokatz
otherwise all i see is that hole you lot see might just be a badly made rad that somehow passed QC.
if you dont have any solid evidence saying TC is doing this in purpose then you dont have any ground to stand on.
see one hole in one rad out of thousands made and calling a company cheating is just the same as sh*tting out of your mouth.
I just can’t comprehend how anyone would think this was “fowl play” or “cheating”
Thermochill radiators have been around for ages now for anyone to chop up and identify how they are made so it sounds more like sour grapes for not doing so rather than fowl play on Thermochill behalf as at this stage it could be deemed as a clever design rather than a “trick” (if indeed its not a manufacturing flaw as at this point in time its one rad out of many that these accusations based upon)
How can it be fowl play if there are no rules or guidelines to adhere to and given there are none, who and how do you consider they are cheating???
I see this as a manufacturing limitation. From what I saw, the divider is not just a plate but have a bent edge. Bending the edge around while matching the shape of the baffle is pretty hard so there is a possible gap at the corners.
If they build them with no gap by making more precise work, the cost will go up with no real benefit for the end users so think about that ;)
Can I smell Feser shill ?
You do not work for Feser, but the website where you are an administrator is sponsered by Feser. So do not pretend your objective in this matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remcokatz
It's a design choice just as much as nV using different shader/core clocks since G70. Or AMD using different L3/core clocks on K10.
As far as I'm concerned, it's only a cheat when it dynamically adjusts flow based on what test is being done and is no longer characteristic of the actual performance.
In other words:
Doing a flow rate test? 'Open the hatches' and let it bypass the radiator for max flow.
Doing a cooling test? 'Close the hatches' and force it all through a radiator, reducing flow but increasing cooling (though only very slightly).
And you're spreading the FUD by putting it as "news" on the website cited above.
http://www.google.com/translate?u=ht...&hl=no&ie=UTF8
I don't think I even have to comment that one...Quote:
Keep you do not like these practices then you can put a Xchanger of Feser of the GT extreme of Black Ice.
And I agree with vapor. Cheating is when you deliberatly change the variables depending of what test is conducted.
Don't get me wrong, the Feser rad might be very good, perhaps even better than the PA. But trying convince custumors by bashing another brand is not the way to go. The way to go is to have real performance charts, with comparisions to other brands.
this "cheat" concept is really the dumbest thing i've hear in sooooooo long. thats like comparing two desks, one has wheels on the legs and the other doesn't.... zomg the desk with wheels is a cheat!!
iandh finishes popcorn, makes another bag... sits and watches as XS members attach adjustable bypass valves between the inlets and outlets on their rads
:D
At first, I freaked out over this. But when you sit down and think about it, the Thermochill is an amazing piece of work and I'm glad I have two I don't care about the small holes now.
So is there a way to close the gap?
You can do it by unsoldering the baffle, fill the gap with brazing then resolder it....Quote:
Originally Posted by gojirasan
Not worth the time !
why would you want to? are you unsatisfied with your PA's performance? you think closing that gap will seriously make a difference? you should probably add wheels to your desk as well. your monitor will be much faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by gojirasan
this thread is beyond stupid and i'm now upset with myself for participating in it. :rolleyes: :shakes:
Aren't you forgetting that water coolers are not getting any better overclocks than air coolers (using the TRUE) these days? None of this is really about practical benefit anymore. I'm not sure what it's about, the purity of the engineering maybe? And for reasons of engineering purity/idealism, I don't like the idea of any hot water going right back into my loop without being cooled, whether the gap was intentional or not. So yes I'd like to close it up if it is at all practical to do so. Maybe some J B Weld? I guess it's just an issue of getting access to it.Quote:
why would you want to? are you unsatisfied with your PA's performance?
what did you smoke today? my crappiest w/c system dominates the TRUE.Quote:
Originally Posted by gojirasan
Thank you coolfris for bashing me here and not just sending me an pm on our own forum....:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfris
Like i said: i'm open to any ideas about this so called "cheat"!
If it's not a cheat and i get a reasonable explanation there is nothing that will stop me from saying that you are correct!
The fact that my site gets sponsored by feser (WITH TUBES AND WATER!) does not do anything to my judgement.. for gods sake i get blackops's and 9800x2 sponsored and still i love DFI and ati more... ALSO I HAVE A TC RAD! So don't start telling me that i'm a sell out because that's not fair...
Please tell me which of the following describes the design choice made by Thermochill. If you're still unhappy I don't think there's anything I or anyone on this forum can do for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remcokatz
cheat Audio Help /tʃit/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[cheet] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.
3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.
–verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.
7. Informal. to be sexually unfaithful (often fol. by on): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.
–noun
8. a person who acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds: He is a cheat and a liar.
9. a fraud; swindle; deception: The game was a cheat.
10. Law. the fraudulent obtaining of another's property by a pretense or trick.
11. an impostor: The man who passed as an earl was a cheat.
The only thing Remco wants to say.
Is that it is not fair in a flow test compared to other Radz that don't have the shortcut,it haves the best flow but some water is not cooled down,
Despite others that don't have a shortcut,
I Would like see the TC without the shortcut in flow test compared other radz,thats more even i think.
I care about the flow but don't want the warm water get mixed with the just cooled down water thats less performance i think!
I don't say its a bad radiator but its not even in flow test compared with the don't have shortcut rads
@Remco:
I already made my point in the "news" section of your website. Same arguments and many more are given in this thread. So how much reasonable explaination do you need before you wil understand the points given?
ps:
And if you do understand, please rectify the nonsense your website is now spreading about "the cheating matter" in the "news" section (where right after this news the feser rad is announced..........)
You are more then welcome to send me your article and i'll be more then happy to post it as news :)Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfris
Where not the first site with this news Coolfris
checkout http://www.bouweenpc.nl/nieuws/1099 to
But if i'm honest its a bit to negativ and i get your point,
Where redoing the newspost now,
By this logic it's not fair to compare a Hardware Labs radiator to a Thermochill radiator in a performance test because obviously with no gap it gets more water running through the fins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolclocks
Just stop and think about that for a minute...
How about "it's not fair to compare the performance of a Thermochill radiator and a Black Ice GT Stealth radiator because the fin density is lower on the Thermochill radiator". Is it a hack to have low fin density?
Maybe it's a cheat for Intel to have higher GHz than AMD? Maybe you should only test AMD vs. Intel CPUs if both are overclocked to run at the same clock speed? Maybe you should disable any extra cache on the Intel chip so they both have the same amount of L2 cache.
Don't edit your news posting. Delete it and issue an apology for creating a sensationalist news story.
by their logic, you can't compare intel vs amd because intels logo is blue. and thats a cheat!@Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
To be sure, I just rechecked the overclocking section and it seems that there are air cooling setups reaching 4.7 to 4.9 Ghz. Are you beating that on water and if so by how much? People are talking about the Cryo-Z getting a dual core to 5Ghz. So the same argument could really be made for (single stage) phase. But the practicality argument remains pretty good as far as I can see. Of course there are potential noise and longevity arguments as well. But as far as sheer performance per dollar air cooling is absolutely unbeatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by [XC] itznfb
You're also forgetting that having a tricked out liquid cooled rig is t3h sex :up:Quote:
Originally Posted by gojirasan
To right..........be nice to see some of yours Linus??Quote:
Originally Posted by Linus@ncix
I'm sorry, but at the moment there is no way I would run anything over 3.8-4Ghz 24/7 on air with todays chips. Is watercooling semi-obsolete? Yes, but it also increases the lifetime of your components, is quiet, and quite good looking as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by gojirasan
Plus, for serious OC'ing on quads water is a must IMO, even on the 45nm chips.
I've heard some BMW fans claim Audi cheats because they use turbo on some of their engines.
How anyone can call the design of or manifacturing of a radiator cheating simply does not compute.
Are you haters saying Thermochill makes radiators to score high on flow testing?
Seriously, whatever you are smoking is making your brain malfunction.
Also, mentioned before in this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Durkadurka
Even if the gap was intentional, who gives a flying turd as long they perfom as beautifully as they do? :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolclocks
WTF? :explode2: That site isn't even calling it a cheat but there they say TC is ripping off their customers with their rads.
They should be banned from the internet for those words. :shakes:
With all respect, but I think the people of both those websites lack suficient knowledge of watercooling to fully understand that this is a non-issue. Maybe thats why it's possible they concieve it as something that matters and start saying those undignified things about a produkt that has made a great contribution to watercooling in general in terms of a step forward in quality and performance. Even when there will come a better succesor as the king off cool, the PA series have made their marks for a long time now and should be respected for that.
I know your website has just started and there is some great enthusiasm among its members for cooling, overclocking and sub zero benching. I higly apriciate that and think there is a potential to become a great website.
But participating in mud throwing and calling it news is imo not the road to become a serious site about anything at all.
Why is it that the idiots are the ones that always managed to get into positions of influence?
Seriously.
a) I'm sorry, I thought TC are the best not because of flow, but because they cool superbly with low CFM fans that only BIX's can achieve with high flow, high pressure fans. Can you tell me you'll get the same results with YL-D12SL on a 120.3 compared to a BIX 3 or a MCR 3?Quote:
As some must have knowledge, the recent radiator of the Thermochill has been in great prominence for this InterNet is... E this reason? Because it reaches resulted as none another one in the flow test. Link for test in the MartinsLiquid: Here! Now the reason of the topic and also of the gotten result: With this enormous hole the water easily passes of the entrance for the exit of the radiator without at least being cooled. Obviously that it has influences in the gotten temperatures... But the improvement in the results of flow rate test is sufficiently great. This is not clean game! E is difficult to discover because I am not to see much people to cut radiators of $100's
The fact that TC's cool the best with low RPM fans vs other radiators shows that they actually need less air flowing through it, which means (ergo) they have a high surface area of dissipation which would also mean that there is a high rate of liquid moving through the tubing with the fins, not through your stupid 'ginormous hole'
b) ENORMOUS HOLE? ENORMOUS HOLE?!
Where the HELL did you get "ENORMOUS HOLE" from?
---
Furthermore, it's funny how this antagonist has
a) "FESER COOLING" plastered all over his signature
and
b) Has not responded in ANY way to the all the challenges of the posters here, as well as explanations offered by martin about flow rate and by people about how the bending is probably a engineering limitation, to challenges of crying foul on one sample in thousands and a challenge to buy more to see if this is a consistent cheat.
No, he simply goes to nitpick with someone about posting on this site instead of some other site.
And this is why arguing on the internet gets you nowhere. Soon as the other guy realizes he's losing, he dons his NAZI GRAMMAR hat.
I'm not sure if all of these Feser fanboys realize how much of a disservice they are doing to Feser by going on a Thermochill trashing spree.
Great way to promote a new product! :up:
:rolleyes:
edit: Also, I have worked in a fabrication shop for over ten years. Anybody with at least 1.5-2 brain cells to rub together, that takes a look at that divider piece, should instantly be able to figure out the reason it has a larger radius than the endcap which it is fitted into. ;)
I'll give a hint, it doesn't have a damned thing to do with flow.
Even if it is the feser gang thats on a rampage, what good is it going to do them? they rad has to be really extreme with the price tag they got on it, and if so, why are they complaining about the price on tc's? they're cheaper than feser and are so far still the best performing.. If Feser's is better, they are going to charge even more for the best performing rad..
Just sounds like someone is abit sad that he's own favorite isn't the favor of everyone else.. reminds abit of the time of koolance jet engine test's :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by cegras
WOW WOW WOW.. i have to sleep at some point mister! I live in Europe so while you are talking i'm sleeping so DUH that i'm not responding.
I've read this whole thread and i have said it before that if i get a normal explanation about why it's not a cheat i would not hessistate and say you are correct.
Now i have read everything and i must say you are right on every part except on the "flow" part since i do not understand why it would be a good test when this hole somehow artificially improves the flow.. or am i wrong? (just tell me instead of getting angry :confused: )
Next to that: thank you for calling me a morron... i did not call anyone names and i think it's very disrespectful from your side!
Btw my signature has nothing to do with my judgement! I have a TC rad! I don't have a Feser rad and yes I will receive one in a short time from feser BUT the only reason i have this signature is because i just love the tubing and water... Besides what's wrong with having a favorite brand?
The news article has been removed from my site.
Why do you need a normal explanation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Remcokatz
Your statement of this being "a cheat" means there's no reason to take you seriously.
What, you want design of every piece of equipment made an ISO-standard, so that you can call everyone who doesn't follow the standard "a cheat" ?
Considering the Feser radiator I tested was a prototype, there is a good chance things could change for the production model, so I've have removed the Feser curve as a comparison. As far as I'm concerned they were nearly equal in pressure drop and this whole thread is a waste of hot air because that little leak amounts to nothing at all.
The TC PA120.3 I tested was a production model, and they all have that same divider plate. They are all cut and pressed formed on the same machine, so my PD result is a good test, it matches real world production samples, and it matches TC's own testing (Which BTW the fact that they publish that sort of real scientific data on their own website is EXEMPLARY:up: ).
There are only two very simple things that define the performance of a radiator. Pressure drop for how restrictive things are and C/W curves for various fans that defines thermal performance relative to flow rate and different fan types. Every product out there has to make some trades between restriction and thermal performance, but high restriction doesn't mean high performance, there is good and bad restriction. Restriction that improves velocity and turbulence at critical and necessary areas is good restriction, and restriction that causes no performance gain is bad. Post both pressure drop and c/w curves on your website and you've defined performance and the trades between the two.
And here is my suggestion for removing more bad restriction from radiators. If you want to reduce pressure drop, clean up the flow tube ends inside the plenum chambers. Either flare them out as much as possible or cut them off flush and radius the ends. The entrance losses into the tubes probably accounts for half of the total restriciton in a radiator. I think most radiators could reduce restriction there by 30-40%. In fact I may even take my old bonnie heatercore and cut it open to demonstrate my theory.
Now how about some "constructive" improvements and advancements to products;)
Well, I've read and re-read this entire thread and it makes me alternately laugh out loud and shake my head in disbelief.
The laughing comes from "the Cheat", as it's called.
The shaking my head comes from it being posted as "news" and in horrifying descriptions and details.....depicting nothing substantive other than rampant speculation and innuendo.
Honestly, I believe Remcokatz is nothing more than a Chicken Little, crying foul about something found but not substantiated to have any positive or negative effect on a TC radiator.
All I've been able to read from his "news" break and other sites is just speculation.....not one whit of testing to prove a damned thing. Instead, we have innuendo and speculation being bandied about as being fact.
But a couple of observations/suggestions........
If "Chicken Little" Remcokatz is so darned sure this is a cheat, take a TC rad, plug one end of the "cheat passage" up, and have the flow rate and pressure drop tested by an impartial party, like Martin. I don't think anyone would recognize any testing done by anyone screaming cheat right now.
Second, most people buy radiators based on thermal performance. I see no way this "cheat" helps in that on a TC.....to me it would, seemingly, hamper performance. So how does the TC rad continually outperform every other radiator on the planet, esp. with low cfm fans? I know I've gotten my Q6600, G0 stepping, to perform at 3.9GHz at 1.50V, on a TC radiator and never broach 58C after an hour of OCCT testing using S-Flex "F" fans. At 3.6GHZ, at 1.35V, I can run my S-Flex fans at 7-9V, utterly silent, and never broach 55C after an hour of OCCT. Cannot say that about any other rad out there....low cfm fans (maybe 50 cfm flow through the TC rad) combined with a TC 120.3 rad equals unparalleled performance.
Maybe closing off that passage will increase its thermal performance.....who knows? Again, it'd take unbiased testing, doen pre- and post-closure of the passage to actually determine this. But its thermal performance has never been matched with low flow fans by any other rad.....period.
So, now you are screaming about flow cheating, Remcokatz? An aspect, while somewhat important, is not as important as the primary function of the rad, thermal rejection?
So get one tested independently. Like I said, close off one end of the passage and have it tested. (You don't have to close off both ends....once it fills with fluid, it'd essentially act just like a solid piece of metal.) But I see no attempt to try unbiased testing, just trying to trash Thermochill for a design choice.....and one you may not understand.
BTW, Remcokatz, have you asked TC why it's there?
For what it's worth, it almost seems to me to be something strange here. Who in their right mind cuts open an expensive TC radiator ot see if it's cheating in flow rates? Perhaps it is someone acting on "suggestions" from a competitor to "investigate" a "cheat" found by that competitor when the TC was being torn down to almost copy its design? After all, if you're going after the top dog in radiators, why not copy what they've already designed? Saves a lot of time, expense, trial-and-error, etc.
This is all a tempest in a teapot unless unbiased testing is done to prove the "claims" and assertions being levied against TC......and all this "cheating" BS almost seems like an underhanded viral attack on TC from unnamed sources just as a new product is introduced to market to compete against the King of Cool.
And since I'm ranting and rambling, I've always wondered why so many accept product samples from manufacturers for testing of a product instead of obtaining one from retail sources? I know there is the expense angle...but taking a sample directly from a manufacturer smacks of being fed a "golden sample" or one that's been "enhanced" beyond what is available via retail.
It'd be too easy to provide a sample of a product that performs just a bit better than one can buy via normal retail outlets.....it's been done time and again by various manufacturers over the decades......Pontiac's GTO test by Car and Driver in the 1960's is a famous example. Pontiac provided a GTO for testing....and amazingly, it was faster in the quarter mile than the top gun Ferrari of the day.
Turned out that from outward appearances, it was a GTO just like any other. Under the hood, so to speak, it'd been massaged like hell....bigger ports in the head, ported intake (and the intake was not the stock production one, either), slightly higher compression, etc., etc. Nothing that could be seen or found via routine road testing but only with tearing the engine apart.
Well, C&D eventually did just that......and found it was a fudged sample.
So, I just wonder if some companies or manufacturers have been doing just this in computer part/component testing? Just a thought......(we all do remember the fudging the previous iteration of OCZ and their memory "testing" proved to be.....right?)
Not saying TC is doing this as their performance numbers match between real world testing of retail samples and what they publish on their website....it's just others out there making unfounded and unsubstantiated claims of besting this or that's performance and only giving samples to be tested........
I posted a bit rude post above, insulting the intelligence of anyone who thought this was a cheat, but I must admit that it really wasn't all that productive. I'll tell you why I think the baffle is constructed like that from the point of view of a person who build things like this for a living.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remcokatz
When they first set up the production line for these rads, dies were made to stamp the end plates and baffle plates, and the divider. It is very typical for a radiused piece such as the divider plate to be purposely designed with a slightly larger radius that the piece it is going into to ensure that it fits snugly and fully into its mating piece. If they were to try and cut it close, they could end up with a worthless die that produces dividers that don't fully insert into the end caps, or it could cause assembly problems later down the line as the end cap stamping dies wear on the corners, causing the radius to reduce slightly.
This still looks like a totally normal loose tolerance part for mass production. It surely is a bit sloppy fitting, but I have no instinct whatsoever that it was purposely made that way for performance reasons. In fact, it is quite possible that the person who designed and produced the dies was working only from very rough specs and had no specific knowledge of this radiators performance characteristics.
Just put the issue to rest, guys... :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
Now those are some explanations that sound wise and usefull :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by iandh
To anyone else stating that i'm the one who started this i'll remind you that i did not start this post!
Now please stop using me as an example to show that you are correct because i will let this issue rest since i now know "what and how" as you could have read in my reply before this one.
Thank you all
Yes, but there were also a jillion other explanations like that earlier in the thread.
And I'm pretty sure it's up to the person who makes the claim to research their claim a bit more thoroughly before they make their claim.
Also, whether or not you were the OP is irrelevant, as you did post your news up on your site. So meh.
To put this website in Perspective...
The Portuguese / Brazilians are quick to cry foul.
Just like they do in Soccer.
I am one so I know how it is.
Link please? I'd like to be sure I'm looking at the same info you were.Quote:
Originally Posted by gojirasan
here you go. And just scroll down further there are quite a few more in the range I stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
I was shocked myself to see 4.9. I figured 4.7 would be the limit on air. Hell, I'm only shooting for around 4.4-4.6 on my new rig with dual PA120.3. I didn't think my statement would be controversial. I've read much of the same here before. These days watercooling is not about significantly higher overclocks. Let's not kid ourselves about that. I guess we all have our own reasons though.
Thanks, it's as I thought. Those were absolute max OC's, they were not claimed as 24/7 stable. I saw only 2 ppl that used P95 in their ss and they were 4.0GHz (53ºC) and 4.4GHz (76ºC). Everyone else that posted a ss was using SuperPi, hardly a stability standard. It also seemed to be a select few combinations of hardware offering that kind of boost.Quote:
Originally Posted by gojirasan
The thing with water is, most go for max OC that is 24/7 P95 stable while maintaining a quite system as many crunch or fold with their rigs, I'm sure those air boxes were screaming bloody freakin murder. A good water setup would hold those OC's (if not higher), and do it with lower temps.
Waterlogged is correct, watercooling will allow those who run 24/7 for crunching (I do myself) to have a high overclock while keeping the temps in check for 24/7 ;)
Sorry, no offence intended but will someone please put an end to this thread as my ribs are beginning to ache from laughing. The thought of reading about another conspiracy theory, genius design idea or downright manufacturing cheat is too much to bear. My knowledge of computer ‘enhancement’ is limited but I have been manufacturing selling and buying copper and brass heat exchangers for over 25 years, which means i have pretty much seen and heard it all….. Until now!
A friend with one of these Thermochill coolers alerted me to this thread and asked my advice. I say a friend but was actually one of his children so that probably makes me too old to post on a forum about xtremesystems!… BUT! Having upgraded his cooler from a double to a triple he has allowed me to dissect his old unit to check for ‘secret tunnels’ and the like. I am not comparing this to other coolers, simply offering an opinion on what I see.
The design is pretty standard for a cooler with mass produced parts. The standard of the materials and matrix used is high. Thinner/cheaper brass, matrix and steel could have been used but to the detriment of the cooler. The standard of soldering and assembly looks high and there are a few nice touches in the manufacture of what is essentially a hand made unit. The baffle is the centre of this discussion so I took time to check this. It was sealed to the core with a rubber strip which did as it should. The baffle is a single pressing with a flanged edge to give a better soldering surface area (all good). The solder in my unit is well done and fully seals the baffle. On removal of the baffle I could see that the radius of the baffle was very slightly larger than that of the inside of the tank. This has the potential to leave a VERY SMALL pinhole when the solder shrinks in the hole during manufacture. This would be rare and the size of hole would be so small that any flow through there would be immeasurable and insignificant. I can’t see why anyone would deliberately put a hole this small in this type of exchanger on purpose. It would be almost impossible to replicate and completely pointless in this or any other application.
The original pictures I saw were of a cooler that had been ‘butchered’ and all the solder and brass torn. Not a very scientific way to make such wide ranging accusations against any product especially when they are misguided. Good job you can’t get sued on these forums because the guys at Thermochill must be a little miffed to say the least.
Judging by the quality of material, design and workmanship the cooler is not bad value for money in the world of exchangers. I think you need to focus on the more important issue of how well it performs in your environment.
STAY COOL!!! Demisterman
Bah, thats not cheating!
Cheating is like bugging drivers for extra marks in 3dmark.
This is just a different design method, every company uses different design methods.
Tell me this, have you seen a MCR320 cut open? No i highly doubt it,how about an xspc rad then? No thought so.
This is in now way cheating, It would hardly affect temps like 0.1c....
Thermochill still wins!