I'll redo this if I get an actual production sample to try.
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I'll redo this if I get an actual production sample to try.
I can't wait for the show down!
Ohhh been waiting for this! Martin always comes through in the clutch! Thanks martin! can't wait to see more results.. ohh btw are the fan spacings the same as the swiftech or thermochill?
thats easy to judge, no were close to thermos so its got to be standard fan mounting like everyone elses.Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousChu
you must be having alot of fun martin :yepp: cant wait to see results. wonder how it performs against a 360GTX, footprints are similar
Wow that looks good!
If the thermal tests are favorable we could have a new king of cool;)
Some ppl have said stuff like "copy of the PA", "overhyped" etc, but if performance is good then who cares!?
Also has other perks like g1/4 threads, normal fan spacing etc.
Thanks again martin, looking forward to all the thermal testing to come:cool:
Can't leave cost out of that equation. Cost is the main pohibitive factor on the PA series. Are they the best performers at pretty much every CFM level, sure, are they twice as expensive as the competition, yeah, does *C scale linearly with cost, nope!Quote:
Originally Posted by twwen2
You realize the Feser 120.3 is to sell for 180 right?
Very true, i forgot to mention that. There was suggestions that it would be priced slightly higher than the PA series, which unfortunately puts it (and the PA) out of my range:(Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtosDracon
For some it won't matter tho
I do now. I really don't understand the cost of these things. $180 is pretty close to the cost of my chiller set-up minus the pump, lines and block but, including insulation. I think I'd much rather have -25C than 30C for that much money.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspire.comptech
Most of us UK lads are using these ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
http://www.chilledpc.co.uk/shop/imag...hermochill.jpg
http://www.chilledpc.co.uk/shop/prod...roducts_id=205
Tom inc's them with the Thermochill RADs if you buy the RAD off his shop. I like them. I have 2 spear here i can send if needed/wanted.
I hate barbs without recessed o-rings. That's why EK barbs are the best, don't have to worry about overtightening and squishing the ring.
If you want to put both radiators on the same level, use McMaster 4860K657 adapters then use the same barbs to gauge the restriction level. If even with the G1/4" barbs, the TC is better, it will be clear now.
I know G3/8" help with flow but this doesn't matter because we aren't using 5/8" barbs to take advantage of the extra size. 1/2" barbs and 3/8" barbs will have the same inner diameter no matter what is the threading size.
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
What's the inside diameter on those? These EK G3/8" barbs I have here from www.watercoolingshop.com are 10.1mm ID.
I also have a pair of these reducers that they donated to me.
So I was planning to just test with the EK barbs and maybe try it again with the reducers and some G1/4 barbs.
Anyhow, it'll be a while before any thermal testing. This prototype is going back in the mail today, but I might get a sample later to keep of the final production model. If I do, I'll do some thermal work. I picked up an A/C variac the other day, now I just need to figure out my heating element (thinking maybe simple aquarium heaters in my test reservoir) and some templates for my Dallas thermal probes and I can start some sort of radiator thermal testing. It wont be quite to an environmental chamber accuracy level, but I figure with enough probes on the inlet and outlet side I'd have a good measurement of water/ambient deltas I can compare.
Anyhow, glad it helps, I've got some more pictures I need to process that may be helpful too.:up:
Beside the testing, how is the overall quality of the radiator ? The Thermochill radiators has a poor quality paint and is easy to scratch unfortunately.
I understand the theory behind your point but, why bother with the adapters. In the second part of your post you say it yourself, the tubing and barb ID is the main bottleneck so why bother using the adaptor, a 1/2OD barb is going to have pretty close to the same ID. I understand they're not identical but, pretty close unless you're using one of the high flow barbs with the 7/16" ID. Or is that strictly your point? Use the same barb just for the sake of consistency between the tests?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilikon
Yes, to make sure both is in the same level. The reason for adapters is because some guys will want to have a certain barb for a uniform look and often, they come in G1/4" only. Even if overall, they look almost the same, there is still a small ID variancy between brands.
The Thermochill is G3/8" so in the past, a good pair of barbs is almost non-existent beside TC ones till recently when EK made them. I bought my set last fall and for the 3/8" ID tubing, there is no barbs available for G3/8" period !
damn martin, you got the job done fast :clap: , can't wait for your thermochill and thermal testing, also this rad is not gonna cost 180 more along the lines of 140, they haven't shipped so those are just msrps.
Since Bill Adams did the testing on the PA's, you can be certain the numbers are solid.
DD going to be the distributor on this also?
I don't think it's a exclusive distributor because NCIX is ordering directly from Feser.
It currently looks like FrozenCPU and maybe Danger Den are going to carry these rads. Frozen is the only one that have them listed ATM and it looks like the starting price for the 3x120 @ $172.99.Quote:
Originally Posted by afX
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/72...ml?id=3CN6Be9o
The lowest I see these coming down to ATM is maybe ~$145-150. Still not worth it IMO, even if it does manage to beat a TC of the same size with the same fans @ same voltage.
OT: Random side note. I saw P-PC's was going to sell these as well but have pulled them (and all other Feser products) from the site. Also gone are TC rads, just the 120.1 rad grill remains and will likely disappear as well when sold out.
Just checked at P-PC's and they still have Feser fluids in the fluids section.....
Hmm, that's weird. Feser doesn't show up in the Manu box on the left. Looks like I jumped the gun on that.:wasntme: I do know that I saw the rads listed a few days ago in the "New Products" section but now their gone.
I agree, I just don't know what barbs were used for the testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Usually it doesn't matter much with a G1/4 barb, but considering the PA can accept G3/8 barbs and these pressure drops are small, it's important to test.
I noticed a difference in my old MCR320 pressure drop testing just switching from 3/8" NPT with 1/2" hosebarbs to 5/8" hosebarbs, so I'm sure the same is possible here.
It's just always a good idea to compare on the same test bed if possible.
Now, someone send a PA120.3 to Martin ;)
Danger Den might be helping me with loaner sample...I'll keep you posted..:up:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilikon
That's great. I'm in favor of using the same testbed so we can have the same point of reference ;)
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by Xilikon
dont look at me. Im already trying to work out something with martin on him borrowing my RD-30.
Just worried he's gonna get in trouble with the wifey. :rofl:
Yeah I need to setup my pump test rig in the garage and maybe run a scrap board through the table saw every now and then.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Man, its really great to see a radiator with some kind of branding on it and not looking OEM, it gives the WC market a more mainstream appeal.
Anyways, for that price, it better perform well compared to the PA 120.3.
Assuming thermal dissipation is about equal with a thermochill (just assume for a minute):
Do you want to spend $130-ish for a thermochill or $180 for the feser rad that looks like it is in a bit nicer finish? Is the finish worth $50 to people?
I was surprised at one thing in the chart, I thought the HWlabs rads were more restrictive than the swiftech rads, not the other way around :shrug: According to the chart I have about 1 PSI drop in my loop from the MCR320.
Martin PM Marci, he may know what barbs were used in the PA... I would BET they are the plastic BSPT barbs that used to ship with them...
:shakes: Sparky :shakes: Sparky :shakes: Sparky.Quote:
Originally Posted by SparkyJJO
That's a BIX (orange) in the chart to your MCR (apple). ;) I'm sure if you looked at a graph with the MCR and GTS, the MCR would slaughter the GTS. BIP and MCR would probably be close though
I thought it was all the hwlabs rads, not just the GTS that were really restrictive (aside from the GTX).
My bad.
nah, the BIP is actually pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by SparkyJJO
The GTS is thin, i have one for tight spaces.
The PA is thick and long. <dont get sick thoughts people>
The GTX is thick and regular.
This radiator looks like a beefed up version of the GTX Gen2. I wonder why DD isnt making one themself. It should be cheaper cuz its stateside.
Yeah, I've asked in several emails to get some pressure drop data from HWlabs without luck. The ONLY data I've ever come across is from this french review:Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterlogged
http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools
That dinos22 led me onto back in July last year. Exemplary testing for sure.
http://www.cooling-masters.com/image...mages/g2en.png
Unfortunately I've never found any sort of pressure drop test results for any of the other HWlabs radiators. CrazyJoe is working on testing his 480GTX though.:up:
So YES the BIX 320 is the only radiator from HWlabs that I have ever found a PD curve for. If anyone knows of any other's I'd be very interested.
HWlabs mentioned they were updating their site December/January with more info, but I havn't seen anything yet.
This review seems to indicate that the GTX does in fact have a lower pressure drop, but flow rate tests can't be used for anything more than a "yeah it's less restrictive" type of comparison.
http://translate.google.com/translat...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Anyhow, I'd like to compare with more but information is not available.
And radiators are all generally fairly low restriction compared to blocks, the graph is just sized to fit the data.
SUBSCRIBED. I can't wait for the results, I'm especially eager to see how copper effects performance. :D
I thought the plastic barbs was added by DD, not Thermochill ?? BillA is from the UK ?Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
FYI,
Here is swiftech's published curve, it's for the new G1/4 style which matches what I posted. The older 3/8" NPT barbed version did have less pressure drop, but the newer G1/4 also has a little better thermal performance.
http://www.swiftech.com/assets/image...0_PD_vs_FR.gif
Here is the 220 showing the thermal changes between the barbs, I still don't quite understand how smaller barbs do that, but it's good!
I really admire swiftech and thermochill for posting this sort of good useable data to help us ofigure things out.
http://www.swiftech.com/assets/image...P_HD_VS_FR.PNG
Not a clue I'm afraid - it was a long time ago. IIRC, I sent him our "older" G3/8" metal barbs (the ones that require PTFE) when I shipped the rads to him to test, but whether he used them or not I couldn't say (memory crap these days)... either way, he'd have accounted for the barbs' own pressure drop when he produced the figures... he always does...Quote:
Martin PM Marci, he may know what barbs were used in the PA... I would BET they are the plastic BSPT barbs that used to ship with them...
Correct - plastic barbs were never added by us... DD supplied them with the rads. In the UK, we sold them without barbs and let customer make the choice. Some bought TEFEN's blue 3/8" BSP fittings, some bought our metal 3/8" BSP fittings, some bought the O-ring fittings that are now available from us...Quote:
thought the plastic barbs was added by DD, not Thermochill ?? BillA is from the UK ?
BillA = USA (Texas area to be precise when last I heard from him, but he was off to do something with irrigation systems or summat I think so maybe somewhere else now).
That's cos BillA tested independently years ago (when he first reviewed HE Series radiators posted at overclockers.com), then went to work at Swiftech and produced their data, then went to work for Coolingworks (and produced their data), then, once he'd left both companies (thus assuring neutrality of reviews) was commissioned to produce our data once again for the PA series. All credit for those companies releasing that data goes to BillA for actually collecting that data for us to publish.Quote:
I really admire swiftech and thermochill for posting this sort of good useable data to help us ofigure things out.
Now that Bill has retired from the scene, you won't find similar data that can be directly compared to any of his... it HAS to be tested on the same test rig under the same conditions for any of it to be directly comparable - remember that important detail. Swiftech data can't be compared to PA series data or HE series data or Coolingworks data... all 4x sets of data were produced on different testbeds and thus can't be directly compared to each other accurately. If thermal testing is to be done on Feser's new rad, whoever does it should, at the same time, test all others to produce comparable data. I suggest "acquiring" all triple rads for a bulk test session on a single testbed in a controlled environment.
The data used in the Cooling-masters article for the HWLabs series was also produced by BillA. David wrote the review etc, but the thermal and pressure drop data was all provided by BillA.
ALL c/w radiator data that is used as the foundation of most watercooling calcs tends to have been produced by BillA. I don't think anyone else has produced reproduceable accurate c/w data since (Bill's testrig was worth thousands and consisted of VERY good equipment, including a small wind tunnel and enviro chamber, and could produce accuracy to 4 decimal places).
And, yes, 5 deg C improvement is a hell of a lot to pull over the PA Series unless using what we'd consider to be "noisy" fans... in which case yes, it's easily doable. I'm still a firm believer in Cathar's work, and strongly believe any improvement over the PA Series at it's "optimal" airflow range will be in the very small fractions of a degree (ie: a difference of miniscule proportions difficult to measure). As Cathar stated, the brick wall has been hit when it comes to radiator performance, and I stand by his statement fully, until proven otherwise by testing as thoroughly (and appropriately - no 500cfm fans and 30lpm liq flow escapades) as that done by BillA.
It appears FrozenCPU has decided to stop stocking the Thermochill PA120.3 and will now only carry the Feser Xchangers.
I noticed they had removed the 120.3 from their web page so I sent them an email about it and they confirmed, no more PA120.3. Seems kind of self defeating on their part, and one less U.S. source available.
The same thing is happening in Europe :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilyin
:shakes: