New Controller - Adaptec - Better then Areca?

http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/product...ance/SAS-5805/

Next-generation Unified Serial controllers deliver performance for high-capacity SATA drives and high-end SAS drives
8 internal-port low-profile Unified Serial RAID controller delivers exceptional performance and scalability, along with advanced data protection for bandwidth-intensive high-density server applications.

Supported Operating Systems
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows Server 2003
Windows Server 2008
Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) 4.0, 5.0
SUSE Linux Enterprise Server (SLES) 9.0, 10.0
SCO OpenServer 6.0
SCO UnixWare 7.1.4
Sun Solaris 10
FreeBSD 5.4, 6.1, 6.2
VMware ESX Server 3.0.1, 3.0.2
Benefits
Performance Unified Serial RAID controller supports both SATA and SAS devices. Ideal for bandwidth intensive storage applications; NAS, OLTP servers, web servers, digital surveillance and stream applications.
Customer Needs
High I/O transaction and high bandwidth processing.
Form Factor
MD2 Low-Profile
Cache Memory


512MB of DDR2 memory
RAID Levels
RAID levels 0, 1, 1E, 5, 5EE, 6, 10, 50 and 60
Key RAID Features
• Supports 8 direct-attached or up to 256 SATA or SAS disk drives
using SAS expanders
• RAID levels 0, 1, 1E, 5, 5EE, 6, 10, 50 and 60
• Quick initialization
• Supports multiple RAID LUNs
• Online Capacity Expansion
• Copyback Hot Spare
• Dynamic caching algorithm
• Native Command Queuing (NCQ)
• Background initialization
• Hot-plug drive support
• RAID Level Migration
• Hot spares – global, dedicated, and pooled
• Automatic/manual rebuild of hot spares
• SAF-TE enclosure management
• Configurable stripe size
• S.M.A.R.T. support
• Multiple arrays per disk drive
• Open stripe table
• Dynamic sector repair
• Staggered drive spin-up
• Bootable array support
• Optimized Disk Utilization

Bus System Interface Type
8-lane PCIe
Internal Connectors


2 internal (SFF-8087) MiniSAS connectors
Package Contents
• Adaptec RAID 5805 Controller
• Additional low profile vented bracket
• Quick Installation Guide (English/French/German/Italian/Spanish)
• Software and documentation CDs
• Cables: two internal Mini SAS x4 to (4x) SATA fanout cables w/ sideband (2247100-R), 1 meter
Warranty
3 years

Management Utilities

Adaptec Storage Manager™ (ASM)
• Java-based GUI Management Utility
• Remote configuration, monitoring & notification
• ASM OS Support: Windows, Linux, SCO, Solaris
• Microsoft VDS Support
• SNMP, SMTP
• Remote firmware updates

ARCCONF
• Command Line Interface

Adaptec BIOS Utility (ACU)
• BIOS level configuration utility
• Flashable BIOS support

Physical Size

2.5" H x 6.6" L (64mm x 167mm)

Operating Temperature (excl. battery)

0°C to 45°C (without airflow)
0°C to 55°C (with airflow)
Note: with battery the temperature should not exceed 40°C

Operating Voltage

1 amp @ 3.3V

Regulatory Certification

CE, FCC, UL, C-tick, VCCI

Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF)

873,402 hours at 40 degree C.

Accessories

Adaptec Battery Module 800 (2248000-R)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
For those confused about the SAS/SATA thing this controller can do both:eek:
Adaptec decided to call this UNIFIED SERIAL ARCHITECTURE
-----------------------------------------------------------------
One Storage Architecture for SATA & SAS: Endless Possibilities

Choose an Adaptec Unified Serial™ controller to leverage cost-effective, high-capacity
Serial ATA (SATA) disk drives or high-performance Serial Attached SCSI (SAS) drives, or both, in a single storage system. Now, it’s possible to create solutions that are closely tailored to business needs today and also make upgrading or reallocating storage as simple as swapping disks.

For expanding a SCSI infrastructure, simply install an Adaptec Unified Serial controller in your server and as your data grows, take advantage of massive scalability up to 128 devices, or up to 60TB (using 500 GB drives).

http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/_common/unified_serial/
http://www.adaptec.com/en-US/_common/unified_serial/

Adaptec RAID 5405 (4PORT) 425USD
Adaptec RAID 5805 (8PORT) 650USD
Adaptec RAID 51245 16 port (12 internal/4 external) 1075 USD

I highly Doubt many of you would go above 8 ports, but some of us are quite Xtreme :D

Highlights

1.2GHz Dual Core RAID on Chip (ROC)
- High-performance RAID 5 and 6
- Up to 512MB DDR2 cache
Supports up to 256 SATA or SAS drives using SAS expanders
3Gbs/ throughput at each drive port
x8 PCI Express host interface
Supports multiple RAID LUNs
Enclosure management support via LED header and SES2/SGPIO
RoHS compliant

Yes, that card caught my eye as well, and now it looks like Areca also has the 1.2Ghz procs on their newer line of ARC-1680ix cards which is sweet. I'm going to be dumping my ARC-1280ML card here as soon as they hit the channel and if it's a drop-in replacement (should be but need to check w/ areca on that). I'm constantly hitting the processor limit on the 800Mhz version.

Both the Areca and the Adaptec should perform similar as they're both based on the same chip and when comparing same speed to same speed. I like the ability for the areca to have 4GB of cache though. We'll see when more people pick them up.

hmm... Dual core raid? for the areca?
Here quote from site
http://www.areca.us/news/2008/n030408_01.htm

Quote:

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The SAS RAID controllers raise the standard to higher performance levels with several enhancements including Intel new high-performance 1200MHz IOP348 I/O Processor, a DDR2-533 memory architecture and PCIe x8 Link host interface bus interconnection.

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There might be differences between the adaptec and the areca...areca didn't state if it was dual core or not :\

the Areca in Canada here is selling for 853$
Areca ARC1680LP 8-Port Low Profile PCI-E SAS 256MB RAID Controller
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.p...ufacture=ARECA

Adaptec is significantly cheaper, it is much cheaper if you look here:
http://www.atic.ca/index.php?search=...+5805&x=24&y=6
555$ for a 8 port adaptec!

Yes, the IOP348 is a dual cpu design (one for SAS the other for the raid function). it's the same principle as the Adaptec so both should have the same layout, firmware and other coding would be different but I don't really see that being more than a percentage point or two from each other.

hmm i wonder what would be different

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevecs

Yes, the IOP348 is a dual cpu design (one for SAS the other for the raid function). it's the same principle as the Adaptec so both should have the same layout, firmware and other coding would be different but I don't really see that being more than a percentage point or two from each other.

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hi Steve,

I'm running a 3805, how much of a difference would I possibly experience upgrading to the 5805?
2x320 raid1, 4x320 raid10

mind you I'd have to change mboard to take advantage of the 8x lanes.
thanks

You're not doing any parity raid with those arrays. You won't really see much of a difference in performance. Perhaps a little for small/burst transactions as you are increasing your cache (128 -> 512MB) but that's rather small as well and depends on your workload.

As alfaunits & myself have 'bantered' in another thread the 8x lanes is not something you'll actually use with the cards (it's going to have the same max cap speeds when writing out to the drives, only going to the cache would have some benefit of anything over 4x pcie.

In your case I would say increasing the size of your array would give you more bang for the buck than getting the card/changing your MB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevecs

You're not doing any parity raid with those arrays. You won't really see much of a difference in performance. Perhaps a little for small/burst transactions as you are increasing your cache (128 -> 512MB) but that's rather small as well and depends on your workload.

As alfaunits & myself have 'bantered' in another thread the 8x lanes is not something you'll actually use with the cards (it's going to have the same max cap speeds when writing out to the drives, only going to the cache would have some benefit of anything over 4x pcie.

In your case I would say increasing the size of your array would give you more bang for the buck than getting the card/changing your MB.

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So, probably increasing the raid10 to 6 drives would be best for me.
Greatly appreciated, Thanks!

Just noticed that Adaptec don't actually list support for the 64bit versions of Windows XP x64, Windows Server 2003 x64, Windows Vista x64 and Windows Server 2008 x64 for these new cards

Has anyone been able to find some confirmation on this somewhere?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stevecs

You're not doing any parity raid with those arrays. You won't really see much of a difference in performance. Perhaps a little for small/burst transactions as you are increasing your cache (128 -> 512MB) but that's rather small as well and depends on your workload.

As alfaunits & myself have 'bantered' in another thread the 8x lanes is not something you'll actually use with the cards (it's going to have the same max cap speeds when writing out to the drives, only going to the cache would have some benefit of anything over 4x pcie.

In your case I would say increasing the size of your array would give you more bang for the buck than getting the card/changing your MB.

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Actually, now 6x320gb and switched to raid 50 - this seems to work well for me.

It's amazing how quickly you can use up the space.

Stevecs, quick question please;

I have little experience in this area, what would be a simple set-up (cost effective) for 12 disks? - prefer external to keep case cool.

Thank You in advance.

Adaptec 3805 - 128 cache (using x4 lane only 1 available) - XP Pro x32 - Q6600

FYI, if you were looking for redundancy/availability a raid-6 array would have higher availability than the raid-50 you have and use the same # of drives for parity.

Well, I've seen some external SATA chassis on the web where you can get a 12-channel (areca/3ware/adaptec) card and run the cables externally to the drives. That's probably the cheapest. Otherwise, if you are looking for a SAS external chassis then the price goes up. You can find some without expanders (you'll have to run an multi-lane cable for each 4 drives yourself) cheaper probably < $800 range. If you want ones with a built-in expander (one cable and the chassis usually using the lsi chipsets expand it up to 28 drives. basically combines the mini sas-4i cables into a single 12Gbps link and then breaks it out to the drives). These are more expensive for single-path probably <$1800 or so, for dual-path $1800+

If you have some room in the case and you're using 2.5" drives there are some 8-bay internal enclosures (supermicro and a couple others make them) that you can daisy chain. The problem is that not man of them have more than 2 channels for uplink to the drives when you daisy chain them (so only 6Gbps). But they take up only 2 slots which is nice.

Here are some links at least ones that caught my eye:
External w/ sas expanders:

http://www.rackmountpro.com/product....2023&catid=247
http://www.rackmountnet.com/SASSATA-...J-SA24-316R-B/
http://www.pcicase.co.uk/rackmount.ihtml?pid=746&step=4

Or for internal 8 in 2:
http://www.pcicase.co.uk/rackmount.ihtml?pid=743&step=4
http://www.supermicro.com/products/a.../CSE-M28E2.cfm

Thank you,

ok what about this?

http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=CA-6DRV3GE

there is the same 6- bay cage without expander, both about the same price;

My strategy is to find the most cost effective workable solutions until I develop a better understanding.

also, with Diskmon for the short time I monitored activity, I find most of my write activity is 8 - 128k

Don't know that's for the intel SC5xxx series computer. Looks like the sas version may have that but with only two sas ports if you have the hs backplane, but that's only 6Gbps, assuming that they can both be tied to the controller and one is not used for linking to another chassis. There is hardly any tech docs on the unit itself as it does not appear to be something that is sold for aftermarket sales just as an accessory for the specified intel servers.

I would probably steer clear of it unless you have one of the intel boxes as even if you could get it to work you won't have any support for it.

Stevecs,

You have been extremely helpful,

What I was thinking; just use the 6 bay cage non expanded - mini sas to 4xsata fanout 1 meter cables

You mentioned raid6 versus raid50 (better availability), what about raid-5 with a hot space?(maybe better performance?) taking into consideration most of my writes are 8 - 128k, you still recommend that? Also using default Adaptec stripe 256k - should I change this?

Depends on what you goal is. If write performance is what you are looking for than the raid-50 would have slightly better write performance over the raid-6 array. (and raid-10 would have more over the raid-50). However if you are looking for availability of the array than it would be raid-6, then raid-10, then raid-50, then raid-5. As for raid5+hot spare. Hot spares help if you have a long rebuild or discovery window. Personally I would use a raid-6 over a raid-5+hot spare due to the higher availability. (if a drive dies you still have another parity, whereas if a drive dies in a raid-5 you are non-redundant now until you complete the rebuild).

It really comes down to what your goal is and what your workload type is (not just write size (request size) but queue depth, amount of writes in relation to the amount of reads, and availability requirements. There is no 'silver bullet', everything is a compromise of some sort. ;)

Honestly, stripe size is much over-rated and mis-understood. Unless you really know your workload to the 'T' I would suggest you keep your stripe size to 64K. The main 'idea' behind stripe size is to help in the parralism of requests to the drives. For generic home use and even most server uses you will be hard pressed to see a request size > 64K (most are around 16K). And the concepts around keeping your stripe width (stipe size * # drives) >= to your average file size only really helps if you have enough commands in the queue to keep the drives fed. Otherwise it will be no more than single access requests and you won't see much benefit, if any at all.

As for your cage, yes you can put up to 8 drives that way non-expanded and that's good, plus much cheaper than any other solution. When you start going into sas expanders et al (basically where I am due to the sizes of arrays) it gets very pricey, but also, at least for me, I am willing to pay more for a more enterprise (lower maint) approach. Just don't have the time/desire to play that much with it at home & at work. ;)

Thats super,

I appreciate the time and effort.

I'm not looking to break any records so I think for comfort I can sacrifice performance.

The reality is that data integrity is all important. Also, any real world performance hit will be negligible for most of my purposes.

The trick is to find a good balance between form and function; and, your responses have greatly helped to define my needs, as well as, being aware to monitor my specific work habits in order to determine the best compromises specifically for me.

So, at this juncture raid-6 - 64k stripe. I will monitor work habits and the only adjustment I can foresee will be the stripe size.

Thank you gentlemen!

Remember that RAID does not provide _any_ data integrity, it's function is to provide hardware AVAILABILITY. completely different. From a raid point of view your filesystem & files are nothing but data blocks and no real clue what is right or wrong, just that if block X is requested then whatever happens to be in that block is presented to the OS (does not check the contents).

Which is why backups and other data verification schemes are needed (ie, like I do backups of the data and do md5 hash checks on all the files on the system every two weeks, plus at the availability/raid level I do a full raid consistency check every week).

Thanks for the correction, I think what I meant with "availability I have a better chance to maintain my backups".

The other interesting point you mentioned;
"(ie, like I do backups of the data and do md5 hash checks on all the files on the system every two weeks, plus at the availability/raid level I do a full raid consistency check every week)"

Other than backups I never took into consideration those other factors you mentioned.

That I will have to work on and better understand.

Thanks!

Anyone know when these will be out ?

Edit: Found it at pc-pitstop $589 USD

Probably have to wait a couple more weeks. Would say mid april at the earliest assuming there are no delays. Main benefit of them would be for small writes (the faster processor won't help with max cap speed on these cards so for streaming they will have the same max of about 800MiB/s. It's the small request IOPS where the cpu helps out with raid 5/6.

I found it and edited my previous post.

There are quite a few sites in Sweden that have it up for preorder;

5405;
http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=286624

5805;
http://www.prisjakt.nu/produkt.php?p=286627

They are available now, I think I'll get a 5405 even though it's overkill... but at only 240€ I can't resist ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Per Hansson

Just noticed that Adaptec don't actually list support for the 64bit versions of Windows XP x64, Windows Server 2003 x64, Windows Vista x64 and Windows Server 2008 x64 for these new cards

Has anyone been able to find some confirmation on this somewhere?

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I'm running the 3805 no problem XP Pro x64 - will put 3805 in other case and get a 5805 - just can't resist the urge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Per Hansson

Just noticed that Adaptec don't actually list support for the 64bit versions of Windows XP x64, Windows Server 2003 x64, Windows Vista x64 and Windows Server 2008 x64 for these new cards

Has anyone been able to find some confirmation on this somewhere?

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5805 works no problem XP Pro x64

Thanks for the confirmation

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Per Hansson

Thanks for the confirmation

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You are welcome!

how much are you guys paying for your 5805s and are you getting the whole kit w/ cables or without?

Best price I could find was $550

no-one had in stock, so, i ordered from Adaptec $650 for kit (2xmini sas - fanout + sideband),
i wanted some extra cables so this was easy for me, in Canada - so 1 cable or 10 cables same shipping chg - shippings the killer cost

In stock at PC Pitsop $535 usd http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_controllers/adp5805.asp :up:

Avoid the adaptec cards if you plan on using 64-bit vista. There is ZERO support and my 5405 fried two Asus Striker II Extremes before being replaced by Adaptec.

Good thing I hate Vista then :D
My 5405 runs fine on the DFI X38 under XP x64.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crazy1323

Avoid the adaptec cards if you plan on using 64-bit vista. There is ZERO support and my 5405 fried two Asus Striker II Extremes before being replaced by Adaptec.

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I am afraid that you are incorrect. I am currently running an Adaptec 31605 under Vista x64 Ultimate SP1 without any issues whatsoever. It automatically detects the controller, allows installing Windows on the arrays (with native driver support) and finally, the Storage Manager runs without anything that might even remotely resemble a hickup.

I can only recommend the Adaptec controllers - even with 64bit Vista.

I had 3805, then 5805 with Vista x64 + Striker II Extreme board without any troubles...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crazy1323

Avoid the adaptec cards if you plan on using 64-bit vista. There is ZERO support and my 5405 fried two Asus Striker II Extremes before being replaced by Adaptec.

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Well my EVGA Nvidia 790i Ulta needed a BIOS update but runs just fine in Vista 64 with my ARC-1231ML. They have drivers up for 64 on Acera's website.

I guess crazy1323 just had a defective one. Or maybe it just got too hot, that's a real problem with them. I didn't get it to work properly until I watercooled it, lol.

you water cooled your adaptec? what water block did you use?

Clicking the sig does help.. ;)
Aquacomputer Twinplex XT for MSI P35 Southbridge mobos :lol:
46mm distance, centered mounting, fits perfectly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcool

I guess crazy1323 just had a defective one. Or maybe it just got too hot, that's a real problem with them. I didn't get it to work properly until I watercooled it, lol.

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Yes I had to put a fan on mine right away. It would go for maybe 5 minutes and the thermal alarm would go off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcool

Clicking the sig does help.. ;)
Aquacomputer Twinplex XT for MSI P35 Southbridge mobos :lol:
46mm distance, centered mounting, fits perfectly.

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argh, i'd have caught that if I wasn't so tired. ;) Thanks I'll take a look and see if I can get it to work w/ the arecas since it's the same chip. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buckeye

Yes I had to put a fan on mine right away. It would go for maybe 5 minutes and the thermal alarm would go off.

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Yeah haha, I was like 10 minutes into windows then WTF :D
Scared the :banana::banana::banana::banana: out of me :ROTF:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jcool

Yeah haha, I was like 10 minutes into windows then WTF :D
Scared the :banana::banana::banana::banana: out of me :ROTF:

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I know its really lame they do not put a built in fan on that card.

would you guys recommend this for an office multi-function server? (network IP Surveillance, employee payroll + time clock punch in/out recording, and some other misc. uses like print server, etc.)

Ive got 14 drives to throw into this machine.... each 500gig/32mb cache/4ms latency

Well, if you need the performance and don't mind improving the stock cooling I can say it's running very reliably. Current uptime is like 2 months on mine but then again, it's watercooled ;)

@hecktic depending on your I/O needs (mainly write requests to the array) if it's low (90-100% reads) go with raid-5 or 6. If you have a bunch of requests random and higher writes then really look at raid-10. parity raids are limited to the write IOPS of a single drive which is what kills you. From your 4ms timing there I assume those are 15K drives which means you should have somewhere around 150IOPS or so for a single disk and that would also be your max for random writes. You break out of that by using non parity raids (for small arrays say <16 drives). or doing some more involved multi level raids.

I wonder if the Adaptec 5805 is a faster card then the Areca ARC1222?? I saw a review at Tom's hardware were the areca 1680ml (IOP348 / 800mhz / 512MB) was compared to the adaptec 5805. The adaptec was quite a bit faster. Looking to the arc1222 specs the 1680ml has the same iop348 800mhz but the 1680ml has more cache 512MB instead of 256MB. Logically this would say that the adaptec 5805 is also faster then the arc1222, or am i incorrect???

The processor on the adaptec, is it also an iop348 or is it a totally different kind?? I can't seem to find this anywhere... Found it! This link says the 5 series has an IOP348. From which i can immediatly state that the adaptec is faster than the areca arc1222 and has more cache as well!!

Areca is the best for SSDs
Adaptec for HDDs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F.E.A.R.

Areca is the best for SSDs
Adaptec for HDDs.

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And why is that if i may ask??? If you look at pure hardware specs the Adaptec is superior to the areca...

With SSDs, it all comes down to firmware optimizations, and even though Adaptec has really done some catching up lately, the ML1231 is still the best choice for SSDs (even though it is old tech).
However, the only Areca to match/surpass the 5805's parity raid (5/6) performance is the 1680xi. Same IOP (1,2 Ghz Dualcore), and can be equipped with up to 4GB cache. Price/performance is strongly in favor of the 5805 here.

If you don't mind a 45s bootup, the Adaptec 2405 currently is the best choice if you want to run SSD Raid 0 with up to 4 drives and are on a strict budget.

Areca is more optimized for SSDs...
The CPU a the ACR-1680ix (IOP348) is faster then the CPU on the ARC-1231ML (IOP341), but the ARC-1231ML run´s faster with SSDs. ;)

http://www.forumdeluxx.de/forum/show...highlight=1680

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=207557


@ jcool

Die ganze IOP341-Reihe...
ARC-1231/1261/1280ML

Was ich komisch finde, dass der IOP341 laut Intel eigentlich auch mit 1200MHz läuft und 4GB Ram unterstützt. Wahrscheinlich hat Areca den per FW beschnitten.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F.E.A.R.

Areca is the best for SSDs
Adaptec for HDDs.

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Why? No more information?

Looks like Areca can do HDDs too :D

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=213285

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...lers,1806.html

Ok, there is no ARC-1231/1261/1280ML - only the the ARC-1680 :D

I'm thinking about buying a Dedicated Raid card. Like the ARC 1220. But will it be enought for 3x640 GB WD 7200 RPM Blue edition @ Radi 5 and 3x 1TB WD Black edition @ Raid 5 ?

Or do i need to buy a faster ARC1222 ?