Took apart my Apogee GTX recently.

After seeing the threads here about corrosion and the heated discussions about Alum in the tops, I decided to take my loop down, clean it out and take a look @ my block, and this is what I found.

For the record, I was using distilled with PT Nuke.

close up is a bit fuzzy, the shiny part in the middle is from wiping off with a q-tip dipped in rubbing alcohol as the deposits/growth (what have you) didn't come off by rubbing with my finger. The paint came off with no effort.

For the record I am NOT attacking Swiftech and or Gabe, just showing what developed in my loop, and on my block. My MCW60s were perfectly fine, as was my MCW30, sorry I didn't take pics of those.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...7/DSCN0428.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...7/DSCN0425.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...7/DSCN0423.jpg

So you have Al in your loop? How do the copper pins in the block look? Can you post a pic of them?

Refresh, added two pics.

Dammit, I just picked up a GTX in a rediculously great deal used package for my HTPC WCing WIP and was worried abou thte damn ALU top...

Dont want to have to spring for a new top either. CRAP...

I wish they would screw off with Alu!!!

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Originally Posted by turtletrax

Dammit, I just picked up a GTX in a rediculously great deal used package for my HTPC WCing WIP and was worried abou thte damn ALU top...

Dont want to have to spring for a new top either. CRAP...

I wish they would screw off with Alu!!!

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I can NOT confirm that it is in deed corrosion. I didnt see any physical change in the copper plates, other then discoloration which some ketchup helped a little.

Though, to not have to worry, I will get the copper top when I can order from Petra's.

A copper top would've cost them more, and we can't have that. The copper top alone goes for like $40. :rolleyes:

It is. It is what it is. Obvious you didn't use Hydrx. Oh well. buy yourself a FuZion or Supreme and move on.

They wouldn't admit to it, but you didn't use Hydrx either. I'm sorry for your headache, my man.

At this stage, copper GTX top isn't worth it anymore. Just move on.

Already have the supreme. Waiting on a TP1200W to arrive to do cable management then reinstall everything. Moving the Apogee to my Main Cruncher, and will get the copper top.

Just wanted to share with others.

Another one bites the dust....

I'll never run aluminum in my system.....looks like it's time to buy the copper top. I was paranoid about the hour or so I had the Koolance DDC3.2 top running...:D

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Another one bites the dust....

I'll never run aluminum in my system.....looks like it's time to buy the copper top. I was paranoid about the hour or so I had the Koolance DDC3.2 top running...:D

Can you see anything at the barb threads if you remove the barbs?

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No barbs look okay, no leaks, nothing visible in the res when the loop was running. I wouldn't have taken it down other wise. figured wth, and took it all down.

from what I can tell there is nothing visible just inside the rad, there was nothing in the pump. The tubing looks okay, same as the Res, just the top of the GTX showed signs.

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Originally Posted by IanY

It is. It is what it is. Obvious you didn't use Hydrx. Oh well. buy yourself a FuZion or Supreme and move on.

They wouldn't admit to it, but you didn't use Hydrx either. I'm sorry for your headache, my man.

At this stage, copper GTX top isn't worth it anymore. Just move on.

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Ehh its not a headache, like I said, there wasn't any visible damage to the other blocks, they cleaned up fine. I wasn't stressing it. You live and learn. I was a little weary to be honest, but I have had no issues with any swiftech pieces till now.

GTX instructions clearly said to use HydrX as fluid to retain warranty so they obviously knew it would be hard to run with just distilled water. Glad you found out before it leak. I'm also happy to see a serious post about this after reading others (like the one using tap water or another which didn't specify what fluid clearly).

This should be kept for posterity to show why running with aluminium parts is a big no-no no matter how sweet manufacturers coat them to prevent them. What they didn't understand is that no matter how great the coating is made, all it take is just a pinhole (often around the barbs area since screwing a barb is bound to scratch the protective coat) to start the corrosion process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

Another one bites the dust....

I'll never run aluminum in my system.....looks like it's time to buy the copper top. I was paranoid about the hour or so I had the Koolance DDC3.2 top running...:D

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It's possible to get a copper radiator? :confused: :confused:

My advice is to order a copper top for your Apogee - this will ent your problems with it. Until you get hold of the copper top, clean the waterblock parts and use an anticorrosive fluid designed for watercooling.One option is Alphacool TecProtect is a good option - I have this fluid in my waterloop for 3 months and I haven't noticed any problems at all (initially I had distilled water in the waterloop and the waterblock started oxidizing because the base is made from 99.99% copper)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by netburst

It's possible to get a copper radiator? :confused: :confused:

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Copper/brass, yes. The good brands like Thermochill, HWLabs or Swiftech all sell them.

Tile, if you read it correctly, the OP already have a EK Supreme on his hands so he will ditch the GTX anyway. Proper reading FTW !

Hey phelan just wondering how long did you run that loop to get that corrosion. I'm a newbie to watercooling, been running my loop for almost 2 months now. Before I bought the GTX I posted my parts list on OC Forums for any input and no one told me about the aluminum top. After I get it all together I come to XS and everyone is talking about it. I'll be buying a D-Tek Fusion soon just wondering how long I got.

P.S. I am running G11 in my loop. That's supose to stop corrosion doesn't it?

I have had the GTX since about june/july of last year. Ran the loop 24/7 since August of last year.

Forgot to mention I was using G11 as well.

Phelan,

You are still under warranty. However, I would suggest getting it into file cabinet number 13 and forgetting about it. Time to move on since you have a Supreme already. It makes no sense to buy a copper top when a FuZion costs $65 and a copper top costs $40.

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Originally Posted by Xilikon

GTX instructions clearly said to use HydrX as fluid to retain warranty so they obviously knew it would be hard to run with just distilled water. Glad you found out before it leak. I'm also happy to see a serious post about this after reading others (like the one using tap water or another which didn't specify what fluid clearly).

This should be kept for posterity to show why running with aluminium parts is a big no-no no matter how sweet manufacturers coat them to prevent them. What they didn't understand is that no matter how great the coating is made, all it take is just a pinhole (often around the barbs area since screwing a barb is bound to scratch the protective coat) to start the corrosion process.

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QFA:up:

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Originally Posted by IanY

Phelan,

You are still under warranty. However, I would suggest getting it into file cabinet number 13 and forgetting about it. Time to move on since you have a Supreme already. It makes no sense to buy a copper top when a FuZion costs $65 and a copper top costs $40.

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lol, File cabinet 13.


maybe I could try to sell it, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanY

Phelan,

You are still under warranty. However, I would suggest getting it into file cabinet number 13 and forgetting about it. Time to move on since you have a Supreme already. It makes no sense to buy a copper top when a FuZion costs $65 and a copper top costs $40.

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QFT! :up:

I would call the 1-800 line anyway since its a free call. They're going to ask you to send it back... tell it sure.. on their dime... Send them a message anyway and ask them for an explanation, but I can predict now that they are going to pin blame on you for not using Hydrx... G11 doesn't count in their eyes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanY

I would call the 1-800 line anyway since its a free call. They're going to ask you to send it back... tell it sure.. on their dime... Send them a message anyway and ask them for an explanation, but I can predict now that they are going to pin blame on you for not using Hydrx... G11 doesn't count in their eyes.

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Yeah I wouldn't be surprised, though I am sure if I got my gf to call, I would get the block sent back on their dime and money refunded, or have them ship me a copper top on their dime and cost me nothing. And And And........it would be done with a smile on both parts.:yepp: :up:

She works wonders on the phone when it comes to arguing policies/warranties/terms of service and related subjects. She aced her contracts class and is writing wills.

in the mean time I am just getting my cruncher up and running, which is air cooled by a Typhoon, and the gpu is water cooled with a MAze 4. :ROTF:

I wonder if swiftech use brass for the top and galvanized it using nickel/chrom will solve this problem.

I dont know but brass is cheaper than aluminium right? And all the barbs we are using use brass galvanized with nickel/chrom. Besides we even use brass and chopper in our radiator.

There a pimp motorcycle shop at my homeland that can galvanized metal. Some of my friend plated some of their motorcycle part with chrom at that shop and it aint too expensive.

Maybe the corroded surface would help create turbulence and improve temperatures. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sparda

I wonder if swiftech use brass for the top and galvanized it using nickel/chrom will solve this problem.

I dont know but brass is cheaper than aluminium right? And all the barbs we are using use brass galvanized with nickel/chrom. Besides we even use brass and chopper in our radiator.

There a pimp motorcycle shop at my homeland that can galvanized metal. Some of my friend plated some of their motorcycle part with chrom at that shop and it aint too expensive.

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We already talked about that before and Gabe refused to listen to us :shrug: Brass or stainless steel would be pretty cheap indeed.

One word comes to mind. Stubborn.

Guys No Bashing Gabe/Swiftech as I stated in my first post I just posted my observations with no intent of ill will @ either party.

I'm not bashing him, just stating a fact.

phelan its either this.

You messed up, or the company messed up.

The thing is, your way to advance to mess up like this. So obvious default. The company messed up.

I guess the GTX is a dime dozen. I havent had any problems running it in my loop when it had the alu top. The Alu top isnt on anymore, but when i pulled it off, it was still shiny and new.

But it seems the later tops that came out after mine, are having QC in lower spec. Mine was probably one of the first to roll out.

But man, phelan, i feel for ya, i feel bad for the stealth owners now.

I LOVE THIS QUOTE -

Quote:

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O lny srmat poelpe can raed tihs.

cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!

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now I have a responce for people that hate my spelling, you made my week with that quote, mucho gracious..

nOW i have to decide if I want to spend the 40 for the copper top, isn't that the energizer bunny... :woot:

What swiftech should do is that for every top that gets corroded, they should send the user a copper top replacement free of charge.

Or make the tops with delrin to begin with.

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Originally Posted by phelan1777

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised, though I am sure if I got my gf to call, I would get the block sent back on their dime and money refunded, or have them ship me a copper top on their dime and cost me nothing. And And And........it would be done with a smile on both parts.:yepp: :up:

She works wonders on the phone when it comes to arguing policies/warranties/terms of service and related subjects. She aced her contracts class and is writing wills.

in the mean time I am just getting my cruncher up and running, which is air cooled by a Typhoon, and the gpu is water cooled with a MAze 4. :ROTF:

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Err.. with all due respect, its going to be another woman at the end of the phone line, and so I doubt your gf would be able to do anything lol And Michelle at Swiftech is nice and reasonable and not easily fooled lol

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

What swiftech should do is that for every top that gets corroded, they should send the user a copper top replacement free of charge.

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You know and I know that it is wishful thinking.

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Originally Posted by starlon

Or make the tops with delrin to begin with.

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They do make delrin tops for the Apogee GTX... it's called the Apogee GT!

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Originally Posted by Xilikon

We already talked about that before and Gabe refused to listen to us :shrug: Brass or stainless steel would be pretty cheap indeed.

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Be careful with stainless, because there's many different alloys.

Some of them may be corroded by copper, others would corrode your copper parts.

Nickel plated brass, brass and copper. And if you can, copper "onry".

Oh let's stop crying over the GTX. There are alternatives. It doesn't figure into the competition anymore.

It just marketing/business after all. :rolleyes: Since they can create and produce a good water block.....they must be aware of this puny aluminium problem.

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Originally Posted by IanY

Oh let's stop crying over the GTX. It doesn't figure into the competition anymore.

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No kidding. Just grab a Fuzion and be done.

outch

looks nasty

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Originally Posted by Nate P.

They do make delrin tops for the Apogee GTX... it's called the Apogee GT!

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Well, the tops are designed a little differently from what I understand.

A little Zerex, regular anti-freeze or similar would have likely prevented this. Corrosion inhibitors keep this from happening and if you service your loop every so often with the proper mix you'll never have this problem.

What's simpler, buying a new top or using a different mix?

:shrug: *runs for cover* :shrug:

It's "simpler" to just stay away from aluminum. ;)

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Originally Posted by Sunayknits

A little Zerex, regular anti-freeze or similar would have likely prevented this. Corrosion inhibitors keep this from happening and if you service your loop every so often with the proper mix you'll never have this problem.

What's simpler, buying a new top or using a different mix?

:shrug: *runs for cover* :shrug:

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G11 IS anti-freeze. ;)

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Originally Posted by nikhsub1

What swiftech should do is that for every top that gets corroded, they should send the user a copper top replacement free of charge.

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:yepp: But instead they'll sell a swap-in top for a price nearly as high as the block itself? Right.

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Originally Posted by Sparda

I wonder if swiftech use brass for the top and galvanized it using nickel/chrom will solve this problem.

I dont know but brass is cheaper than aluminium right? And all the barbs we are using use brass galvanized with nickel/chrom. Besides we even use brass and chopper in our radiator. ...

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Brass doesn't react with copper, so it could be used for the top. There would be no need to plate it, except to appeal aesthetically. Brass tarnishes quite readily, so a top made out of the material would start turning brown in no time; that's the reason for a nickel plating.

Aluminum is cheaper and softer than brass. Tooling costs for cutting the material are cheaper, since the bits last longer. Anodizing is cheaper than plating.

It's all about the money, bud. :yepp:

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Originally Posted by zLynk

Brass doesn't react with copper, so it could be used for the top. There would be no need to plate it, except to appeal aesthetically. Brass tarnishes quite readily, so a top made out of the material would start turning brown in no time; that's the reason for a nickel plating.

Aluminum is cheaper and softer than brass. Tooling costs for cutting the material are cheaper, since the bits last longer. Anodizing is cheaper than plating.

It's all about the money, bud. :yepp:

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The problem is, the GTX is double plated. The smart thing to do was stay away from the aluminum but, seeing that's what they used, they should have stayed away from the zinc/cobalt plating and just tripled up on the nickel thickness. Zinc is an anode metal and even though it's mixed with cobalt, I suspect that's what's starting the whole corrosion process. All it would take is a bad blend (ie. heavier on zinc side) to get it started. I defended the stock GTX top for quite a while, that was until knowledgeable users started getting this problem.

Stuff like that is pretty common.

Has happened in every single loop i have run.

Can you shoot an improved pic of the inside of your top? It is hard to see if it iscorrosion or mineral type build-up. The "paint" you are referring to is in the middle of the top?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Froggy

Can you shoot an improved pic of the inside of your top? It is hard to see if it iscorrosion or mineral type build-up. The "paint" you are referring to is in the middle of the top?

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sorry, but the camera won't let me get any close, even with the macro enabled. though you can see my finger prints on my fingers in the on pic.

Yeah it looks like your focus point was actually in the back of the pic. Maybe if you place the top vertically on like a kitchen table & use the table as a tripod for the camera. That way the camera see's the top as a flat area & the whole top will be in focus.

Got my used GTX and I think the top is slightly corroded/or is the plating just coming off due to a bad plate job??...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...x/DSC_0066.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...x/DSC_0072.jpg

I scrubbed it with a toothbrush as it was dirty and low and behold I find the above staring at me. I got a great deal so I guess I cant whine, but I was really hoping that it would be less hassle then more.

Oh well. I guess I am holding off and getting another Fuzion or get a spanky new Supreme.

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Originally Posted by turtletrax

Got my used GTX and I think the top is slightly corroded/or is the plating just coming off due to a bad plate job??...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...x/DSC_0066.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...x/DSC_0072.jpg

I scrubbed it with a toothbrush as it was dirty and low and behold I find the above staring at me. I got a great deal so I guess I cant whine, but I was really hoping that it would be less hassle then more.

Oh well. I guess I am holding off and getting another Fuzion or get a spanky new Supreme.

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Ummmm............no, that's not corrosion. What YOU'VE got is you're starting to remove the black dye from the top that Swiftech coats the inside with.....go ahead and finish taking it off with a toothbrush. That is NOT bad plating or corrosion, just dye coming off. Swiftech even mentions this can happen on their website.

phelan - how long did u have that loop running?

I have a friend who had a mixed metal loop, had it running for 2yrs, with anti-corrosion stuff (car rad fluid) - he did get corrosion, but it was way way waaaaay les than ur loop; in fact it was so minute that, i personally wont have given a ****.. but each to their own..

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Originally Posted by C'DaleRider

Ummmm............no, that's not corrosion. What YOU'VE got is you're starting to remove the black dye from the top that Swiftech coats the inside with.....go ahead and finish taking it off with a toothbrush. That is NOT bad plating or corrosion, just dye coming off. Swiftech even mentions this can happen on their website.

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Ummmmm....... Thanks for the attitude ;)


Edit: Upon more thought, I vote Swiftech puts a few more layers of crap on this thing that can come off. I mean 3 just isn't enough for me.

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Originally Posted by tiro_uspsss

phelan - how long did u have that loop running?

I have a friend who had a mixed metal loop, had it running for 2yrs, with anti-corrosion stuff (car rad fluid) - he did get corrosion, but it was way way waaaaay les than ur loop; in fact it was so minute that, i personally wont have given a ****.. but each to their own..

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Mine was up for over 10 months, about a year this coming May.

Guys.. the use of Pentosin or Zerex or whatever... Swiftech only honors its guarantee if you use Swiftech's own Hydrx, or all bets are off. You can go fight Swiftech all you want, I'm just relaying what they say.

Who is fighting Swiftech? i just stay the hell away from theire GTX...
Use other swiftech stuff tho :) (mcr320, 6002)

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Not that this is directed towards you in anyway IanY, but that's just wrong.

Even if I go to their site now and read up on the GTX, I see no mention of that condition to the guarantee.

I just see the following:

The housing is CNC machined out of billet aluminum and receives two plating's for a lifetime protection against corrosion: electroless nickel plating (MIL-C-26074E grade B) and Zinc Cobalt plating (ASTM B 840-99 grade 6). A black die is applied after plating strictly for cosmetic appeal.
The port threads are 1/4" BSPP standard.
The housing is supported by a 5 year limited (*) warranty

The * refers to the following:

(*) warranty exclusions: mechanical damage(s), die discoloration.

Just seems like that's a crap way of doing business after Swiftechs\Gabe claims last year.

Really pisses me off after all the folks here at XS who chose to use the GTX, trusted Swiftech\Gabe and their assurances about the AL top not being an issue.

I mean, what a RIP:down:

andyc

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AndyC,

I would support your assertions 100%. Ethylene glycol is ethylene glycol. Gave says that Hydrx is used in the boating industry. OK. Pentosin is used in German cars. Zerex is used in NASCAR. So what?

You know me as a Swiftech supporter. I myself.. my GTX and Stealths are history. First, there is the issue of performance, and the D-Tek nozzles laid the issue to rest, finally. Second, its the bother. Why even bother with the hassle of the dye etc etc and the risk etc etc?