Autocascade by Moc

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12-23-2007, 01:10 PM
Moc

Autocascade by Moc

Hey people!

Rotary 28,3ccm (but this is just a assumption)
0,8kW condensor with 4x120mm (Delta... 7W each fan)
old stepper evap, I'm going to change it as soon as i get more money...
1,5m flexible suction line

I started with a home made phase-seperator (stainless steel pipe without steelwool).
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...tokaskade1.jpg
... but it didn't seperate and i was not satisfied.

After that, Mytekcontrolls gave me the advice to add an SLHX . I did that, but results didn't change. Tbh the SLHX is made out of 12mm copperpipe and 2x 2mm captubes and is only 1m long. That was all I had at home....

So, after that I was nerved. I don't like to braze stainless steel and silver-rods are quite expensive.... so I orderd a Temprite 340.
I saw this one on a picture from Cyrotek, so I was sure it will work :yepp: .

With the Temprite, my sightglas for R290 was empty/just a VERY little flow.
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_019.jpg
I tried everything, different captubes, different gasses .... no success!

My first autocascade worked, and the phasesep was a old fire exgunisher filled with steel wool.
Hopeless, I brazed this ugly thing into the unit.
AND!!
SUCCESS!
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_014.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_017.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_020.jpg
(I have to say that this was in my -5°C cold workplace.)
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_013.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_019.jpg

I removed the sightglass (R23 liquid line) because I'm not sure if it likes the cold. All the pics were made with R290 and CO2, because this is a mixture I don't need to recycle. Tomorrow I will fill with R290 and R23. Hope to get better temps. -80°C would be nice. :up:

Of course, the unit is ugly as hell, but hey... autocascade... :shrug: :up: .

I wish you all a good chrismas!
Paul
12-23-2007, 01:59 PM
marru

Congratulations. I don't understand what made the difference for the phase separation at the end, must be the language barrier. Was it the "old fire extinguisher filled with steel wool"? :D
12-23-2007, 02:05 PM
LukeXE

Insulation mate, insulation !

Congrats, really nice to see nice autocascade project :-) Hope in near future I`ll show something from me :-)

Congrats one more time and keep pushin' bro ! It`s hard stuff but when it works, it makes builder proud of himself, that, at last, that $hit works ! :)
12-23-2007, 02:07 PM
[XC] gomeler

Whew that surely is an ugly beast, but it's a working beast which is more than I can claim :up: Care to draw out a diagram of your current, functional setup along with tubing measurements? I remember that fire extinguisher, awesome stuff :)
12-23-2007, 02:28 PM
n00b 0f l337

I dont think that was the temprite though hurting you, maybe a captube problem or just way to low on the r290 charge.
12-23-2007, 03:33 PM
DagoDuck

Please reduce the size of the pictures. :( Your pipe guidance is unique. It has big resemblance to LukeXE. :D However, you are able to do this better, even if it is an autocascade. This is no problem. As already said, you should insulate the unit to reach better results. Especially the suction and the heat exchanger.

Quote:

http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...tokaskade1.jpg

Did you burn the cables near the compressor? Not quite harmless.
12-23-2007, 09:19 PM
TopherTony

It has been a long time since I have seen an autocascade here. Glad to see it worked out in your favor.

great job :up:
12-23-2007, 11:21 PM
Moc

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopherTony

It has been a long time since I have seen an autocascade here. Glad to see it worked out in your favor.

great job :up:

Thank you :) .

Quote:

Originally Posted by DagoDuck

Please reduce the size of the pictures. :( Your pipe guidance is unique. It has big resemblance to LukeXE. :D However, you are able to do this better, even if it is an autocascade. This is no problem. As already said, you should insulate the unit to reach better results. Especially the suction and the heat exchanger.

Did you burn the cables near the compressor? Not quite harmless.

Thank you Dago! Next autocascade will look better. :yepp: But if you look at the first and last pic, you see that with every change i was forced to do, the unit become more ugly. I don't even want to think how many copper and time this unit would cost me if I would do everythink so clean as in this unit ( http://www.extremecooling.net/index/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?34769.0 ) or your previous work :) .

Quote:

Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337

I dont think that was the temprite though hurting you, maybe a captube problem or just way to low on the r290 charge.

No, I don't think so. But I will try the Temprite again on my next autocascade... i have some nice compressors sitting around :) . (Maneurops :p blue bombs made by Danfoss :p )

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

Insulation mate, insulation !

Congrats, really nice to see nice autocascade project :-) Hope in near future I`ll show something from me :-)

Congrats one more time and keep pushin' bro ! It`s hard stuff but when it works, it makes builder proud of himself, that, at last, that $hit works ! :)

Thank you VERY much Luke :) . You really say something right. :)
I will insulate... and I'm going to fill it with R23 today... hope I get -80°C :) .

Quote:

Originally Posted by marru

Congratulations. I don't understand what made the difference for the phase separation at the end, must be the language barrier. Was it the "old fire extinguisher filled with steel wool"? :D

Your right - my english is quite bad.. :p: :( .
In the end, the Temprite and the stainless steel pipe without steel wool didn't seperate.

Perhaps the Temprite will work in future stages, where you don't have such a high flow... if I had R14 I would try this out... but 100€/kg is to much for me at the moment!

Greetz!
12-24-2007, 05:12 AM
LukeXE

For me Temprite 340a not worked good as phase separator too. Mapp gas bottles are the best for me at this momment.

Just my two cents.
12-24-2007, 06:17 AM
Moc

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

For me Temprite 340a not worked good as phase separator too. Mapp gas bottles are the best for me at this momment.

Just my two cents.

Good to hear that - so it wasn't me who made the mistake :) . :shrug:
In the moment, I do the loadtest. 180W -> -51°C .
(Unit is close to non-insulated) 288W -> @ -38°C I switched the 108W part of my tester off....

I really have to measure the power consumption... in my head there is a voice that tells me, that this rotary just from the outside is so small, that it couldn't have 28,3ccm. Sticker says something like "XXXXXXXX283" so i guessed that that were the ccm like @ Danfoss. NL11F= 11ccm and so on.

A 28,3cc Rotary will not have 10mm suction port and 8mm discharge port or does he?

Thanks for answers....:yepp:
12-24-2007, 06:28 AM
tim-

it isn't that easy, as well it isn't that easy to maesure displacement in ccm, I've heard there is different techniques to measure it on rotarys.. but i don't know.. 28ccm is a big compressor for sure.
12-24-2007, 07:10 AM
godmod

Often the numbers in the model name refer to the m³/h or cfm.
12-24-2007, 09:50 AM
Moc

Update:
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_013.jpg
Idle: ca. -74°C
108W: -56,2°C
180W: -48,1°C
288W: -42,7°C
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...askade_003.jpg
Not enough Armaflex in my workplace :down: .
12-24-2007, 02:21 PM
LukeXE

You can tune it better my friend, I know that.

Your idle temperature is a bit too low IMHO, with more charge you could achieve better loaded results.

But very, very, very nice ! And everything with still CO2 ? That`s great, I will check this thread very often, you can be sure about that. If ya need any advice, no problem, just give me pm or catch on msn.

Good luck ! I`m very close to make a 2008 Autocascade competition in next couple of days/weeks, so work hard and maybe you will take the main prize.

Luke
12-24-2007, 03:36 PM
Moc

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

You can tune it better my friend, I know that.

Your idle temperature is a bit too low IMHO, with more charge you could achieve better loaded results.

But very, very, very nice ! And everything with still CO2 ? That`s great, I will check this thread very often, you can be sure about that. If ya need any advice, no problem, just give me pm or catch on msn.

Good luck ! I`m very close to make a 2008 Autocascade competition in next couple of days/weeks, so work hard and maybe you will take the main prize.

Luke

Hey Luke!

It's so nice to have someone who is interested. In my "main" forum in Germany - no one is interested -.- ....

Now the results are with R23 now.

I'm not sure if I can tune better... because lowside pressure becomes near 2bar. I think more than this will not gain better performance. I have a 0,7mm captube for the R23, I think I could gain performance if I change that to 0,8mm captube but I'm afraid of more low side pressure.

If the holidays are over, I have to order a new mobo so I can try this unit with a normal cpu... my loadtester is normaly much harder than a cpu. :yepp:

It is so hard to say if the unit is properly tuned or not if we don't now the displacement of compressor...

I really need to sell my SC15/SC12 cascade (after our benching event in Berlin the day after tomorrow) to earn some money. If I had R14 , 3 platehx's and two fire exgunisher and a new evaporator... *dream*
12-24-2007, 03:43 PM
LukeXE

Quote:

It is so hard to say if the unit is properly tuned or not if we don't now the displacement of compressor...

Good point.

It looks for me like about 7k btu rotary. Can you post more photos of compressor ? If it would be 7k btu rotary, then results are just...impressive.
12-24-2007, 04:01 PM
Moc

After breakfast, I will measure the power consumption... it's around 28cm HIGH , does that fit to a 7k rotary?
12-24-2007, 04:05 PM
LukeXE

Let`s check power consumption. You gotta breakfast, I will go sleep now :D
12-24-2007, 04:09 PM
Moc

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeXE

Let`s check power consumption. You gotta breakfast, I will go sleep now :D

lol Luke, I will go also sleep now - i'm a neighbor (from Germany) :p .
In comparison with LG datasheets, my compressor seems to have sth. around 16,2ccm (9,8kBTU) . :)
12-24-2007, 04:17 PM
LukeXE

so pretty like 3/4-1HP compressor. I was close with 7k btu quess !

You gotta small compressor for auto-c, but results very nice. Unit isn`t in 100% insulated ?

Neighbour, nice to hear that :D G-night mate.
12-25-2007, 05:19 AM
Moc

Okay I measured 2A - 460W . Seems way to less/low (?) for me.
If the "XXXXXX282" stands for m3/h , Godmod calculated that the compressor has 16ccm. The compressor is as high as the NK164P from LG - a 16ccm rotary!

I'm really excited about the performance now :) . Who gets -42°C @ 290W with a 16ccm Rotary :D ?
03-03-2008, 01:45 PM
Moc

Better tuning:
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...x600_100kb.jpg
http://www.extremecooling.net/index/...x600_100kb.jpg
Now compressor limits...
Consumption: Around 460W.
03-03-2008, 01:56 PM
DagoDuck

Very nice my friend! Do you have some new pictures of the autocascade? :)
03-03-2008, 02:01 PM
Moc

Thank you very much Dago :)
.... I could post them... but better I wait till i made the case around HXs/Seps and so on (will fill it with "Bauschaum" foam so no one see the internals :ROTF: ) .

Btw, are you @ Cebit this year. If your there on saturday or sunday we can organize a meeting :p: .
03-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Clemmaster

Without any information about the compressor you can't know if that's good or bad :p

SC15CLX get 300w @ -40°C and it is only 15cc huh :D

How much did piotres with his first 8k rotary?
03-03-2008, 02:08 PM
DagoDuck

Clemmmaster isn't wrong at all.

@Moc Yes, on Saturday. But let us talk about that rather somewhere else. :D
03-03-2008, 02:15 PM
Moc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clemmaster

Without any information about the compressor you can't know if that's good or bad :p

SC15CLX get 300w @ -40°C and it is only 15cc huh :D

How much did piotres with his first 8k rotary?

The compressor consums 460W @ 2bar low pressure/ 17 high so let me know your guess how many ccm it has. (R22 rotary)

Show me the SC15 unit...
It has 151W @ -40°C . Of course you can get better results than in the datasheet if you have lower condensing temps.

My modded Mach makes 385W @ -24°C.... I know whats possible.

@ Dago
Yes... its time to add me again on icq... 313-894-238 or email.
03-03-2008, 02:48 PM
Clemmaster

You can't go from a power consumption to the displacement espacially with rotaries and autocascaded system.

Some rotaries use small displacement with high motor power and it depends on refrigerant as well (I have à 25cc 3/4hp R12 compressor for instance). I can find the displacement if I know the gas (single stage) used and the serie of the compressor, but if you know the serie there's 99% chance you know the modele name anyway :D

300w are with R404a condensing temp 35°C
03-04-2008, 06:55 AM
godmod

You can only do so if you have condensing- and evaporationtemp und the refrigerant. then you can compare to a dataspec of a similar unit. but this way it is only possible to make a rough guess.