Lapping the 2.4C IHS

I decided to buy a pack of fine assorted wet/dry automotive grit papaer, and went to work. I lapped the IHS down to the copper, cleaning with rubbing alcohol frequently, and it looks so pretty. I also lapped the SLK900U, which is done to a mirror finish, but after awhile, the silver particles get in the micro-groves. Remember copper is actually a porus material. I lapped it down, and it looks even better then when I got it.

Perhaps the most surprising thing I found was the uneven surface of the Intel P4. The corners had significantly more material on them. I used a L-ruler to ensure the surface was flat and then wrapped the paper around an perfectly flat edge and went to work. Obviously this is critical, because you want a flat surface. But as I said it took quite a while for the corners to get down. This is bad, because with the outside edges contacting the Heatsink, there forms a pocket where hot air would become trapped. No good.

Prooof is in the sanding. Yesterday in the same Ambient temp (my air conditoned room) my overclocking temp was 45C to 49C at 3.6GHz (300FSB) today same ambeint temp, and OC conditions, and the temp's are now 38C, and haven't gone above 39C. That's 6C to 11C temp drop! Next I'll be removing the IHS all together. Intel uses thermal paste which is not of the highest quality, and of course they don't it spread thin and even as we would, but simply shoot a dollup of it on the core, and epoxy down the IHS. The hole is for gases to escape or the thing wouldn't adhere correctly. The latter is speculation. But they do use way too much paste, and as everyone know's this can become as much as a deficit, as a dissipation method. I shopuld have took pic's but i was too lazy. I'll take-em tomorrow, and add them to this post. The cip looks much better lapped. ;)

Good results ! I haven't tried lapping my P4's yet but I guess I should ! lol

It's so easy, it's easy. When I first saw the copper i got nervous, until I remembered there's no way you could just lap through to the core. of course you'd see the thermal paste before you hit the core, but stranger things. I'm so silly. Anyway they must coat the IHS just so they can laser in the codes? I guess you wouldn't see it in copper, but i wonder if there's another reason it's coated? I think it's a coat of aluminum powder they put on it? Next I'm removing the IHS, I was going to do it, but decided to lap first. I wonder after removing the IHS if the SLK900U would be too heavy to place on there? Eeven with the more secure mounting system, which is much safer then a retention clip method, there may be shifting weight during installation which could crack the core.

I was concerned about static electricity, when lapping but cleaning with the alcohol frequently seemed to ameliorate any static build-up sinec the chip not only runs cooler, but runs period. Of course not having a wool carpet (or any) and not wearing wool is advisable as well. LOL

same here, silver paste got into the grooves of my SLK800. I'll give it a lap when I change some hardware. did you use your hands to sand it, or a sanding block?

Here are some pics of the 2.8 I had that the IHS came off when taking off the vapo evap head;

http://users.bigpond.net.au/creat/2.8/116-1625_IMG.JPG

http://users.bigpond.net.au/creat/2.8/116-1627_IMG.JPG

http://users.bigpond.net.au/creat/2.8/116-1628_IMG.JPG

Unfortunantly the chip is dead due to the IC7 and vapo not mounting properly and not getting contact. I know it was the IC7 cos when I removed the evap, there was no contact with the AS paste on the core I had put there......I slapped it in the IS7 to see if still alive, and although it got beautifull contact.....the PC would not even post....ala dead cpu.....twas a shame cos this 2.8 was benching pifast and superpi at 4010mhz :(

Since this accident, I am a little hesitant to go ahead and freely remove the IHS by choice in fear of killing another cpu.....I wanted to try it with the 2.4 I have here that benches at 300fsb and maybe get some more fsb, but I dont want to risk such a good cpu.....

Cheers
:)

Liquid3d , what was the finest grit sandpaper you used?i was thinking of lapping it first with 600grit then to 2000 grit that i have laying around. with that much of a drop in temps, im going to do what you did tommorow!

And is there anyway you can post a pic of it after you lapped it?
Sorry about your CPU creative, that would piss me off :mad:

And what can i polish it with to make it look like a mirror?

hmm... shoudl we be lapping the core of the P4 like lapping the old Thunderbird cores too, now? hehe. 8-)

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Originally posted by Peen
Liquid3d , what was the finest grit sandpaper you used?i was thinking of lapping it first with 600grit then to 2000 grit that i have laying around. with that much of a drop in temps, im going to do what you did tommorow!

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I started with 400, and went to 600. Do you really want to see pic's? It's a pain in the butt, but i could throw in the other 2.4C and take pic's for ya. Maybe I should just lap the other one I have as well? The second one has the warranty, as it's a boxed version, alhtough it doesn't seem to OC as stable? It'll do the same speeds (3696MHz), same voltage, (1.550V) but for some reason I got a lot more memory errors at high FSB when benchmarking it?

Whe you lap the CPU, be really careful how you hold it. Dont do it on the motherboard, because the copper powder might get into some fine circuitry cause a short. I held it really carefull as not to bend the pins, and sanded away cleaning with alcohol every few seconds or so.

By the way the Epox 4PCA3+ doen't have the 3:2 memory divider? Anyone know why? They don't have any BIOS updates either, except one which addresses one issue; crackling sound in the sound system?

BTW, intel uses shin etsu thermal grease and thats considered to be the best one around. I`ve used several engeneering samples without heatspreaders - they get more hot tnen the ones with HS instaled - AFAIK its better to leave the hs on da chip.

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Originally posted by Liquid3D


Whe you lap the CPU, be really careful how you hold it. Dont do it on the motherboard, because the copper powder might get into some fine circuitry cause a short. I held it really carefull as not to bend the pins, and sanded away cleaning with alcohol every few seconds or so.

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When people lap Northbridge chipsets they have to do it on the board because it wont come off, they usally tape a bag around it over the board, you could do that if you want to leave the chip.

IMO, theres no point, doesnt take 2 seconds to take a chip out but just means no chance of damaging chip while holding it I spose.

Craig

nah, i did a search on google and saw some pic of ppl doing it, ima take mine out and go to 2000grit

im scared of getting copper in the little vent hole!?!

ok i lapped mine and got a temp drop of about 5-7c under load

COOL isn't it! I mean literally. And so dam easy. Doesn't it look better. Of course say goodbye to the warranty, unless you remove the IHS first send it back and tell them the IHS fell off somewhere, hehe. :eek:

it look kinda cool from far away cause i didnt polish mine, but round copper section in the middle and a lil copper on the outside

I used my sisters makeup mirror , wet the back of the sand paper and stuck it on their for a flat surface and so the sand paper doesnt slip and slide. First i used 600 grit and got it down to the copper , then used the 2000 grit to perfect it. Right now im kinda upset cause it seems to be running about the same temps :stick:

Did you go down far enough that the whole IHS had some kind of surface area taken off?

I should scan my old Celeron 366... but its at home right now 8-/

OMG I beleive, I beleive !! can I have an Amen !!!! :eek:

Ok just go through lapping both the 2.4c and 3.0c, havn't had time to do anything other than set both rigs back up (actually 3 rigs) but my temps are unreal !!!! I can't beleive the difference it made ! just now starting to OC the P4C800 and 3.0c in promie. I'll be back ! :D

i did that too 2 days ago, but my temps went up... so i decided to reseat the evap and found the heatspreader moving around:D i was like wth? well, got rid of the heatspreader and enjoying direct block to core coolng:)

well on mine (and most others i bet) the middle is higher then the rest , cause it was the first part of the IHS that started to show the copper, i just went to when the copper area in the middle was about 2-3 inches

Both the 2.4c and 3.0c that I have where lower in the center than the edges. On the 2.4c it was quite a bit lower. The 3.0c wasn't that far off from being flat.

My cpu is still reaching nearly 70c according to the winbond hardware doc on my IS7 :mad: . didnt really help , geuss i need better cooling

Peen, one thing that you have to be careful of is using too much thermal compound especially when the two surfaces are free from pits and are truely flat. It should be very, very thin almost to the point of being able to see through it. Just a light hazing. You might already be appling it corectly, just wanted to point this out as a posible cause for your temps.

yeah, mines so thin that i could barely get it all spread out across the IHS , im guessing its cause the heatsink has very little actual HEATSINK lol

Edit: Major are you using AS3?

wheres the cheapest place i can get a SLK900u?
ok i figured out a better way to lap the IHS maybe, using 600 grit wet sandpaper and 2000grit wet sand paper.

1: Get a mirror and place on floor
2: Get the 600grit sand paper wet both front and back
3: Put 600 grit sand paper on mirror and water will help it not move
4: Slide you P4 across in a figure 8 until you see what looks like mud on the sandpaper (Actually copper)
5: Take sand paper and give it a good washing
6: Put sandpaper back on mirror and keep doing all this till ALL the IHS apears to look copper, and then do some figure 8's around the paper some more to make sure its PERFECTLY flat
7:Clean off CPU with alchohol
8: Now do this again with the 2000grit for quite some time to make sure all the groves from the 600 grit is gone, AND make sure that you clean the sandpaper regularly at least with water

I wouldnt worry TOO much about static electricity killing your CPU as i was doing this on shaggy carpet and no obeying any of the rules.

So basically the first time i did it, i didnt do a very good job and second time is doing about 2c better with a full load of about 64c (Which still sucks!)

Anyone who wants to OC their P4 more id say you HAVE to do this!

I know this is an old thread but i never poated ta pic becauise i was too lazy to take the CPU out. Here's some Pic's I've taken. I'
m really impressed with this. One reason i've decided to take processor out is to remove the IHS, First I'm comparing it after lapping it almost through the IHS.

FYI I began with 320 ended with 600 Automotive Sandpaper. Taking a cloth, dabbed with alcohol and clean the IHS surface. When you get to the 600 paper, do the same to the paper as well preventing any possible friction related static build-up.

Holding the chip so it's not da,aged isn't that dificult. The pins on the Intel are signifcantly stronger then AMD processor socket pins. Simply place two fingers uder the pins, and your thunb on one half of the IHS, and then switch to the other side. Notice the reflection of my movie poster on the wall ten feet away in the surface reflection. Smooth as as a silk-worm's backside. You can also make out my poor Prometeia waiting to be RMA'd (sigh).

I happen to have a dead P4C800 that I stuck my processors in to lap them ! hehe Made it real easy. Lapping made a significant improvement in my temps, but regardless of temps my processors are both topped out. I've had them in 4 different CW mb's now and they top out at the same OC in all the mb's with the exception of the 2.4c in the MSI Neo which didn't do so well.

I started to by a 2.8c today while I was in Atlanta, but it was a Costa and really want an OEM Malay this time.

I hope removing the IHS works out well, I'd like to try that myself atleast on the 2.4c I have.

so using the sand paper wet is ok? wouldn't the water seep through the hole and get to the core? Just want to make sure I do this right when I have some time!

Yeah i used my sandpaper wet , and it worked fine

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Originally posted by LikwidKool
so using the sand paper wet is ok? wouldn't the water seep through the hole and get to the core? Just want to make sure I do this right when I have some time!

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NO DO NOT use liquid of any kind!!! I said "DAB" the cloth in alocohol, meaning moisten it. And I only use it on the paper at the 600 grit. Wiping the paper with a alcohol moistened cloth should only bne done at the 600 level, because wiping any larger paper would just be akin to cleaning the grains off it. Periodically you can wipe the surface of the processor with an alcohol mopistened cloth, just to see more clearly where your at in the process.

Here's a picture which focuses on a reflection in the heat-sink's surface.

Well damn it, I know what I am doing this afternoon :(

Wow!! Mine is really bad. I'll post some pics later when I am done.

liquid3d.. (little OT) Whats that thing next to the computer in your last pic?

Here is the 'before'. I had used a little 600 grit and wanted to show just how bad my IHS was.
http://www.thecrucible.ca/images/unlapped.jpg

Here is the after

http://www.thecrucible.ca/images/lapped.jpg
http://www.thecrucible.ca/images/lapped2.jpg

I'll post some temps in a few.

dogman , yours is complete oppostire of what mine was, the core part was higher then the edges, but yours looks great now, temps improve alot?

I had to lap my Alpha again so I don't have any temps yet. I just fired it up. I'll burn in the PCM+ and we'll see how she does.

Weird as this sounds, it seems to have made my temps go up. :( I'm going to try and reseat the alpha again see if that helps.

i had the same problem , actually my temps staid the same as what they were. Then i tried to do it again and it helped. Now im kinda pissed cause my CPU is running 5c hotter! AND its perfectly flat. I dont think my crappy Zalman 5700u can handle the heat from the cpu

wow looks good dogman...think ill have to do mine soon...hopefully do it on tues as ill be taking my pc apart to fit in my antec truecontrol 550 watt monster...lol

just a few q's tho...has lapping helped u guys get more of an oc out of ur cpu??...

also for the cpu wot sandpaper do i need???...and for the slk900u heatsink which sandpaper do i need??...and when u say alcohol..is that the white spirit sort of stuff u get from a pharmacists???......jd's wouldnt do the jobv would it???...:p: ...also when ur lapping whats the best method to do it...a straight up and down motion or a figure 8 motion with the sandpaper???

thanks for any info u can give on the above...:)

Here's my new temps after applying the Nanotherm PCM+, and lapping down a wee bit more. The stuff is very strang. It's like there's "blue" solids, in a clear lquid base. Directions instruct to use just a few drops, and spread "very thin coat". But it's so hard to tell what the Hell your doing. You would need almost ten drops spreading even the thinnest layer, if covering the entire P4 IHS with the blue. I swera to God, I think what they've done, is taken their Nanother Blue II (which is the worst in their line0 and added a base to dilute it? STill the temops are fabo for 3.0GHz on the 2.4C. Here's another issue. My PCPower&Cooling is under volting the Vcore on five mobo's now. The vcore is t 1.550 to compensate, and you can see it keeps dropping to 1.488V. I'd say it's the software but on five mobos? And I always check the BIOS as well as the software in Windows. I wrote them, they said if it's VCpore it's the motherboard. I said "On five different boards?"

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Originally posted by Liquid3D
Here's my new temps after applying the Nanotherm PCM+, and lapping down a wee bit more. The stuff is very strang. It's like there's "blue" solids, in a clear lquid base. Directions instruct to use just a few drops, and spread "very thin coat". But it's so hard to tell what the Hell your doing. You would need almost ten drops spreading even the thinnest layer, if covering the entire P4 IHS with the blue. I swera to God, I think what they've done, is taken their Nanother Blue II (which is the worst in their line0 and added a base to dilute it? STill the temops are fabo for 3.0GHz on the 2.4C. Here's another issue. My PCPower&Cooling is under volting the Vcore on five mobo's now. The vcore is t 1.550 to compensate, and you can see it keeps dropping to 1.488V. I'd say it's the software but on five mobos? And I always check the BIOS as well as the software in Windows. I wrote them, they said if it's VCpore it's the motherboard. I said "On five different boards?"

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The directions on the label say to "Apply small drop of PCM+ and spread very thin even layer across area of direct contact on surfaces of both CPU and cooling device." I know some people are having a hard time grasping the concept of a liquid TIM, but it's really quite simple. Do what the directions say and you're all set.

One small drop provides adequate coverage (in a very layer) of up to 3 sq. in. of surface area. In other words, a little drop goes a long way. All you want to do is apply a micro-thin coating - not frost a cake. If you used 10 drops to achieve what you thought was a proper application, then you wasted a lot of PCM+ unnecessarily.

And, no, it doesn't have to be a perfectly thin layer - it just has to be a relatively thin, complete and even coating across both mating surfaces. Of course, that doesn't mean the whole HSF or Waterblock - it means the top of the CPU die and the area on the HSF that actually touches the CPU die. I know you know that already, but others don't, hence my explanation.

Since the PCM+ is a liquid and not a viscous paste or "plumber's putty," the PCM+ will easily spread itself evenly throughout the thermal junction under the clamp pressure of the HSF or Waterblock. It a No-Brainer.

The problem is that there are myriads of people out there who are so used to the thick, viscous "thermal grease" TIMs, that it's really hard to grasp the concept of a thin, liquid TIM. Here's the key - don't think really hard about it. Put a drop on both surfaces, rub it around a bit and attach the HSF or Waterblock to the CPU. That's it! Nothing to it!!

Liquid3D, believe me, I'm not trying to embarass you or make you feel foolish in any way. This is a prevalent misconception that I come across on Forums all the time. And these misconceived notions are brought about by people's experiences using other thermal compounds. Consequently, you have no other frame of reference to work from, so you go with what you know.

Well, the PCM+ is completely different than any other thermal compound out there. It is not a thermal grease at all. And, NO, it is not Nanotherm Blue II - in any way shape or form - diluted, watered-down or otherwise. It's a unique "Thermally Conductive Phase Change Material" just like it says on the bottle. The only thing it has in common with the Blue II is the fact that it is blue, too - and a nice shade of blue, too, wouldn't you say? ;)

Let me summarize this post by stating that I purposely designed the PCM+ in a liquid form to simplify the TIM application process - and make a TIM that would be almost literally impossible to misapply. So, the moral of this story is - Keep It Simple - and you'll get great results. :D

Your not "embarrassing" me at all. One thing I do know, it's that I spread thermal pastes much thinner then the average person. I always try to use the absolute thinnest layer, but of course full coverage. In fact my perfectionism where this subject's concerned, has me constantly explaining that no paste should be left to "hang" over the sides of the "core." Albeit only a few mm in height, any material will prevent air-flow from moving around the processor core's sides.

I realize now I used way too much paste, and I'd be willing to bet, if I'd used two drops instead of 6 (I said ten which was not accurate) my temps would be even lower. So i'm going to do it again this evening, (if here's any left) after i finish some writing. Then I'm writng an article on this entire subject, and belive me I'll be prasing the cooling prowess, and intelligent engineering behind your PCM+. If you read this post you'll see I re-thought my comments made in the reply above. Below is an example of my observations, there's two materials which aren't mixing 100%. :) If you notice in the Pic. there's area's where the blue is of a lower viscocity, and I couldn't prevent the refletion, but where it's looks "pasty white" it's actually more clear and more "oily." Now I realize where not talking Jiffy peanut butter hear so "spreadibility" isn't so important. So long as the surface is covered (or lets say moistened) it's fine, is that correct? Because if one were to attempt to ensure an all blue coverage, they'd end up like me, with little, to no PCM+ left, which now I'm psyched about.

I got some samples today in the mail and will be trying out the Blue II tomorrow.

One thing I would suggest is using some thin plastic (I use clingwrap) streched over the end of your index finger and just dab it around sorta like mop painting on the IHS, you can use a clean peice of plasic wrap to thin out the aplication. Just a suggestion. ;)

I picked up a OEM Mayla 2.8c today from a local Computer distributor that I will give a wirl tomorrow in the promie :D

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Originally posted by Liquid3D
Here's my new temps after applying the Nanotherm PCM+, and lapping down a wee bit more.

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Liquid,

Is it possible that some people's temps go up because the CPU is now smaller, leaving a small gap between HSFs/waterblocks that have standoffs? My waterblock (Asetek) comes with standoffs that are meant precisely for the standard height of the P4. Sand off the IHS, and it's thinner, and the standoffs are now too tall. This would be a concern for me, unless I "lapped" the standoffs too. ;)

Your thoughts on this?

Dont bother with standoffs for the P4? 8-)

Heres something else you guys could be missing.

Surface area.

The contact area between a bare AMD die and a CPU heatsink is much smaller, allowing for much more of the TIM to squeeze out easier.

The contact area between a P4 IHS and a heatsink is HUGE. The prssure required to press the TIM out properly from the junction between them is nearly insane when you think about it... so what Nanotherm says is completely true in the ammount that should be applied to a P4, but not necessarily an AMD.. although 6 would definately be a waste on an AMD.. heh.

Anyways, i'm looking forward to getting the stuff I was sent and comparing it to "Product-X" asap.. and no its not the Anti-Seize compound I was playing with earlier.. It slaughters that by over 5 deg c so far (and DOES NOT DRY OUT EVER!) and sits right in front of anyone's nose that lives near an agricultural area... lol 8-)

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Originally posted by uclajd
Liquid,

Is it possible that some people's temps go up because the CPU is now smaller, leaving a small gap between HSFs/waterblocks that have standoffs? My waterblock (Asetek) comes with standoffs that are meant precisely for the standard height of the P4. Sand off the IHS, and it's thinner, and the standoffs are now too tall. This would be a concern for me, unless I "lapped" the standoffs too. ;)

Your thoughts on this?

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Very astute observation, thnak you for brinign this up Tell you why this is troubling me, besides the prima Facie. When i was lapping the IHS it occurred to me, that I needed not only a perfectly flat object with which to wrap the sand-paper around, but the CPU had to be on a flat surface, such that the surface remained even. Same for the adjoining SLK900U heatsink. Call me crazy, but here's waht i've been thinking (albeit coincidence or not). Since lapping the IHS, i've been experiencing a consistent Bandwidth efficiency of 72%. I've benched three different memroy's, and on both channles. Using Corsair XMS3500, I'd though I'd try and attain some of the LL results people are getting using Kingston Hyper-X3500, in the hopes they used simliar IC's. At 2-5-2-2, with Intel Fast CS Enabled, and 240FSB 1:1 I came up with 5200MB/s. Then I tried the OCZ GolD4000, and Corsair Twin-X4000, and each time the "inefficency" was 72%. Lets say I lapped just slightly below the stand-off's height. Now there's less contact pressure under a specific area on the IHS. Because I used a perfectly flat instrument, but had no level to ensure I was lapping uniformly, lets say 30% of total surface area has 40% more material removed. Now let's pressume specific Core architecture responsible for memory related functions, reside's under said area, or akin to it. As a result of the uniform stand-off height, but the one area experiences reduced contact. The core architecture residing directly below said area, now experience's higher temps. Since the on-board diode can only measure that minute area directly beneath the CPU, there would be no way to determine, if there's inconsistent temps along the IHS surface. Ergo, localized temperatures may be high enough to adversly affect specifc processor functions. And if it were the area above the L1 cache, is it not feasable a bottleneck, or other thermal overload related anomaly may occur?

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The problem is that there are myriads of people out there who are so used to the thick, viscous "thermal grease" TIMs, that it's really hard to grasp the concept of a thin, liquid TIM. Here's the key - don't think really hard about it. Put a drop on both surfaces, rub it around a bit and attach the HSF or Waterblock to the CPU. That's it! Nothing to it!!

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i've been using PCM+ on all my cpus and still get into this old habit of use to seeing how thick a layer of AS3 is compared to PCM+ :o

I was also thinking about the fact that the cpu is now shorter, but i tested how the presssure affected the cooling, and it wasnt a whole lot really. Remeber, my cooling isnt great with a zalman 5700cu but this is what i got. Full load temp of 59c with it all Snapped on the right way. Then i tried it with out snapping it down so it was lose. Went up to 62c full load , so im not worried to much about the whole pressure thing

OOh, don't do that... Latch that thing back on. Pressure does make a difference and you don't want to create an air gap in the thermal junction between the HSF and CPU. You think the performance is poor now - just wait...

You may want to read this. The thoughts Bill has outlined have been confirmed by Intel. ;)

Thank you Mr Thompsom for the Overclockers.com link. The article for me, transcends prima facie dicussion of "flatness" under load. I beleive there's a more important, underlying lesson here. As Enthusiasts, much of what we do, is experimental. Therefore it should meet a testable criteria. There are different types of truth. A specific claim is either an empirical generalization, for which there is wide scale conformaton. Or a "conceptual truth" derivable from our concept of invention. The latter is a more abstract, creative process, the former much more important for our purposes.

My post above is hypothesis, based on certain knowledge of CPU architecture, however; it eschews any emprical confrimation. This does not necessarily detract from it's possibility, however; lack of any testable criteria, does detract from it's probablity. It's based upon Inductive Logic. Where a universal conclusion, is derived from a specific fact, or observation. The problem with the Inductive argument (modes ponens)is that it suffers from what is know, as an, "Inductive Leap." In other words, at some point we must "presume" based upon a tenative hypothesis, which itself is based upon, one or more observations. It's more creative, then empirical.

Albeit Deductive (Modes Tollens), Inductive (Modes Ponens) or Catagorical, as Enthusiats, we should be employing logic in our testing, of hardware. Only in this manner can we have a conversation with a common frame of reference. Otherwise were simply talking from the side of our necks.

If I'd taken my IHS, and merely lapped it with my finger, then I'd have no idea, if the sutrface was uniform or not. I actually disgree, with Intel's ad hoc remedy for the variences among heat spreaders. Not becauise it isn't the best remedy, but i wonder if it perpetuates complacency on the part of Heat Sink manufactuers, not to be overly concerned with flatness? I can see why Intel has done what they have, done, and had mr Thompson not provided us with the link, I wouldn't have known "all" P4 IHs were designed in this manner. Just about every person responding to this thread, seemed to experience the same phenomenon while lapping. They found the center wore away more rapidly the the sides. Yet on my ffirst 2.4C, the opposite occured. I'm too tired to use an example of Syllogistic logic here, but why don't you try? For example;
Premise-1: When lapping a concave IHS, the center will be exposed first
Premise-2: The P4 has a concave IHS.
Conclusion: Lapping a P4, results in center exposure first.

I just removed my heatspreader altogether today and here is why... Each and every time I would take off my water block, the CPU would get stuck the the water block so strongly that it would yank the CPU right out of the socket, almost like the thermal paste created suction. The only way to get the CPU off the block was to slide it all the way to the edge of the block. Today, when i took my block off, it yanked the CPU out but this time, bent several pins. Now I was pissed. So, I got a straight edge razor blade and a pair of plyers and slide the blade under the spreader at each corner. The thing came off like butter. I cleaned it up. put some paste on the die, fixed the pins and put the block on. I was prepared for a dead CPU, either from the pins or taking the spreader off. Sure enough, it booted up no problem. My temps are now 4C lower. A good result I think. I also lapped the heatspreader down to the copper weeks ago, but saw no improvement over doing so.

The reason why I may be seeing such a big drop in temps without the spreader is because of the WB im using, the Cascade which is VERY focused.

Anyone know if the P4 die is more fragile than an AMD die?

I belive the P4 core is much more so then the AMD, as it was designed differently. AMD obviously designed their core, with the intention of having the heatsink pressure directly on it. Not only that, but any designer worth their weight in solder, is going to design some extra duribility, to compensate for operator error.

I have the same exact problem everytime I remove the P4. It depemds upon which thermal transfer material you use, and how much is applioed. My ABit IS7-E, and IC7-G (for example) couldn't hold the CPU down while I removed the hetsink, the Epox 4PCA3+, has a more secure locking mechanism, and the CPU rem,ains frimly in plce when i remove the HS. Glad you brought this up. It was really bothering me, until i tried another board. I was concerned, in the locked position, pulling off the HS, may even pull pins out, and damage the CPU. I also had to slide it several times.

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Originally posted by Liquid3D
...Glad you brought this up. It was really bothering me, until i tried another board. I was concerned, in the locked position, pulling off the HS, may even pull pins out, and damage the CPU. I also had to slide it several times.

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Yeah well I figured if i left the Heatspreader on, i would surely kill the cpu by bending/breaking pins off the bottom and that would suck. I guess I'll take my chances without the spreader, but I do like the temp drop! Gone with the CPU condome!

Let me say it now, because someone will. "Your not praciting safe CPU-sex (overclocking) and you never know what you could catch (overheating)." :D

With the recent heatwave in Los Angeles (95-100F) I have been forced to bring down the OC to 3450. Now with the heatspreader removed, my temps are rediculous! And this is an IC7 which people claim reads high. Room temp is about 29C.

http://www.netbetty.com/H20/3600temps.gif

Lol liquid 8-)

Liquid3D you can see from the pic I posted that my IHS was not high in the center either. Rather much higher on the outer edges. That particular pic is of a 3.0C not a 2.4C but that shouldn't make any difference.

nikhsub1 can u explain a little bit on how you u did it? some ppl say its tff getting it off, and i would like to take OFF my heatspread and stick some good thermal grease in there

IMO it might make it easier to pop off the IHS if you put the chip in the freezer for a while. (It works with other thermal adhesives) Now that I have an extra chip I'll probably take the hs off the 2.8c and see what difference it makes too. ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Peen
nikhsub1 can u explain a little bit on how you u did it? some ppl say its tff getting it off, and i would like to take OFF my heatspread and stick some good thermal grease in there

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It is pretty easy, I dont thing the freezer is a good idea, that will make the epoxy brittle, you want it soft. I used a regular razor blade, a brand new one so it was sharp. I used a pliers to hold the blade. I then slid the blade under each corner of the spreader and gently made sure that i cut all the epoxy. Just take your time, and use a new blade and it is a sinch. Once you cut the bond of the epoxy, the spreader will fall right off. You will freak out on how light the cpu is without the spreader.

nikhsub1 how high have you had that 2.6C, i'm thinking of adding a 2.6C to my collection, but was told as the chips increase in speed, they don't OC as well. Of course their all the same core .13-micron die, architecture, same Masks (templates), Photolithographic process (248nm), wafer's (200mm, and 300mm?) and only bined by multiplier, and vcore. Obviously Intel hit a home-run with the Northeood-D as they'll overclock at default vcore to 3.6GHz and above, and minme OC'd to 3.6 at defualt, and only ran at 36C. Just imagine if the NB and/or memory weren't holding me back? That's one advantage of the higher multipler, CPU clock speed, lower multi bandwidth. Their all most likely capable 3.6GHz, the only thing holding back my 2.4c fom 4GHz is it's multiplier is too low. The 875NB-MCH just can't clock over 300FSB very well without customizing something. My Abit would clock better then my Epox, had it more then 2.8VDIMM, and perhaps my Epox would clock better then my Abit had it higher then 1.6Vcore, and active cooling (although I've yet to feel my NB-HSF even warm).

dogman yes, it's very strange that article discussed Intel's designing the IHS concave to compensate for any variances among Heat Sinks, but I find this may not be entirely accurate as both of us had IHS's which were higher at the edges. Of the two I have, one is higher in the center, and the other the edges? That's not consistent in any respect? I'm taking off the IHS like I told Major two weeks ago, I procrastinated because I'd had so much succcess, but it's time to find some thread.

The safest way I've heard of removing the IHS, is to take a piece of thread, and saw through the epoxy. It's time consuming and strong thread is required, but it doesn't get much safer.

Quote:

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Originally posted by nikhsub1
I just removed my heatspreader altogether today and here is why... Each and every time I would take off my water block, the CPU would get stuck the the water block so strongly that it would yank the CPU right out of the socket, almost like the thermal paste created suction. The only way to get the CPU off the block was to slide it all the way to the edge of the block. Today, when i took my block off, it yanked the CPU out but this time, bent several pins. Now I was pissed.

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Actually, pissed is understating it. I had the same phenomenon with my Volcano 7+ and Shin Etsu - I ripped the processor right out, without benefit of the lever. I don't care how well that $#!t cools, never again do I use Shin Etsu.

I think it killed my socket/board, because it was dead when I put my watercooler on. I swapped the 2.4c for a 2.53b, still dead, not even a beep. I dropped the 2.53, RAM, HDD, vid card into my old IT7, and it worked fine.

So I RMA'd the less-than-a-month-old P4P800DX, which I am waiting to get back. A hard-learned lesson. No apparent damage to my beloved 2.4c, which clock to 3.46 3D stable - on air - thank God.

Rather than ripping off the IHS - which I know would surely lead to me crushing the core for an encore - I'm thinking Nanotherm PCM+ for when the board comes back - does anyone know if this stuff is sticky?

I think im going to take off my heatspreader, but put it back on with AS3 cause with my luck the core will crack. I might just try to smooth out the bottom of the IHS with 600 grit maybe. Im still scared to take off the IHS also

Also about what someone was saying in the post above( cant remeber who) about the fact that when you sand it that the HSF doesnt apply as much pressure. This would be much more of an issue with no IHS

ok i took off my heatspreader too! it was easy as hell, right when u get under the IHS you dont even need to saw with a razorblade. Just a light push and its like the glue just peels. Anyways the grease that was under the CPU was hard as a rock. I also bent a few pins and they are OHHH so close to falling off :eek: , and the CPU is light as crap without the heatspreader.
As for temps? i didnt get a temp change yet, maybe cause its new AS3

Edit:6c drop in temps so far under full load

When you take off that IHS, how do you get that "rock hard" Intel original grease off ? I was thinking about lapping the IHS, but why not go all the way ;)

PTK

I dont know that I recommend all of you take the spreader off! I did it because of what was happening with the cpu getting yanked out of the board, no other reason. I have been told that the die is very fragile so if you do this PLEASE be extra careful when mounting your cooling device.

uclajd,

No, the PCM+ is not sticky. Just a quick note on the re-application of PCM+: Since the PCM+ forms a semi-solid, wax-like coating on and between both mating surfaces (which is how it's supposed to be) after application, you should remove your HSF or Waterblock within a few minutes after shutting down your PC while the CPU and HSF are still warm.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Nanotherm
uclajd,

No, the PCM+ is not sticky.

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Thanks, Nanotherm.

Anyone who doesn't work for Nanotherm have a take on this stuff?;)

yeah but the temp drop is worth the taking off of the IHS. Plus i know i wont crack the core ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liquid3D
nikhsub1 how high have you had that 2.6C, i'm thinking of adding a 2.6C to my collection, but was told as the chips increase in speed, they don't OC as well.

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I have had this CPU up to 3.7Ghz on my water in sig. This was when the ambient temps were much more reasonable...

Well I certainly think the higher multipler will benefit me. 12x is great for bandwidth, however; if one is looking to attain the processors speed limit, multiplier should be high. But I couldn't afford a 3.2C (heck I cant even afford a 2.6C have to find a trader).:eek:

The new stepping p4 IHS is harder to remove. As my 2.8 is a SL5WJ, i will try that tomorrow.
:stick:

I wouldn't recommend removong the IHS from any current P4's. Using any method string or otherwise.

I beleive their now using a silver-epoxy just under the IHS on the core, and it will destroy the chip when you pry it off. This is true with the P4 EE's and I have a feeling the chage may have been made across the board as it would certainly increase thermal transfer.

You can, however; still lap the IHS to a mirror finish, and I HIGHLY recommend getting a kit from http://www.easypckits.com I got one and below is the result. That's my surfboard in the reflection on the left, and the right is focused on the chip. Almost as pretty as your avatar my friend;

heheh, really almost.
So after reading this excellent topic, billa´s article and procooling topic, i came in some ideas:
1 The IHS is really concave(mine)
2 if you try to lap do it the right way.
3 Adjust your presuure clamp.
But how intel only assegure 15-20 mountings ?:confused:
sorry my english.
hey, off topic my under contrction water box.
soory my crappy english

I have had the IHS removed from my 2.4C for about 6 months now. I tried to get more people interested in this but no one seemed to car that I saw about a 7C drop in temps. BTW, DO NOT attempt to remove the IHS from ANY of the "Z" (m0 stepping) chips including the P4EE. Lapping the IHS to a mirrored copper finish is a good idea though.

Hey don't feel bad, I didn't think peope cared either. But you must remembeter a 7C drop may not be worth the loss of the warranty, and if you don't have a heatsink mallueable mounting hardware forget it. For examle the standoff's on my SLK947, and SP-94 prvent me from using the P4 with IHS removed. You would have to sand down the stand-off, and place washers under the mounting screws, but then it's hard to get even tension. I actually ground down the screws because they tap out in the bottom of the standoff. That's carefully meas7ured by Thermalright, and just removing the IHS is enough to render the heatsing unusable. I tried it. I did write an article about it at Madshrimps here's the link;
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=gethowto&howtoID=39

Your not alone in this. I too experienced a significant temperature drop. And the core is simply amazing. See below how it looks afdter you clean it. It has that deep dark blue/black color which I've heard is indicative of a quility core. And it just so happens I've had this 2.4C up to 3865MHz, and even higher, but not stable.

Hmmm, I have been considering shaving a mm or so off my SP-94 standoffs, might be worth a try now just for a touch more pressure.

Be careful my friend. I simply sanded measured, and sanded again. It's not easy, but I wouldn't take it to a grinding wheel or anything.

Quote:

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Originally posted by freecableguy
I have had the IHS removed from my 2.4C for about 6 months now. I tried to get more people interested in this but no one seemed to car that I saw about a 7C drop in temps. BTW, DO NOT attempt to remove the IHS from ANY of the "Z" (m0 stepping) chips including the P4EE. Lapping the IHS to a mirrored copper finish is a good idea though.

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Why not remove it from a Z stepping chip ?

Because Intel is bonding the heatspreader to the chip with some sort of silver epoxy. So far anyone who tried to remove it has ended up with a destroyed core.

Here is a pic of my core after taking the IHS off. The reflection you see is a bottle of isopropyl alcohol.

http://computer.spec3.net/lapping/core.jpg

Beautiful :) I might have to do that when my 2.6c gets here today, provided it isn't a newer stepping.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Spec3
Here is a pic of my core after taking the IHS off. The reflection you see is a bottle of isopropyl alcohol.

http://computer.spec3.net/lapping/core.jpg

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well my 2.4c don't look as good as yours but it is running 3.4 ghz 1.55 volt at 30 C full load with a SLK900U and a zalman 50 cfm fan on it, don't think it would have so low temps with the IHS on it.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Holst
Why not remove it from a Z stepping chip ?

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Holst, I'm shocked you wouldn't know that? :p: Now I'm scared.

I think I'll rip the IHS off my 3.0 using a hammer and big screwdriver. I mean why the Hell not "Self-Destruct Will Robinson...WARNING. WARNING..." (flailing arms in flexi-pvc tubing)

Quote:

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Originally posted by snow
well my 2.4c don't look as good as yours but it is running 3.4 ghz 1.55 volt at 30 C full load with a SLK900U and a zalman 50 cfm fan on it, don't think it would have so low temps with the IHS on it.

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I dunno, this chip I have will run 3.5GHz @ 1.6v, temps at 30c load, that's with the Tornado cranked down to 3500RPM.

The CPU is still in it's "virgin" state, IHS in place, non lapped.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Liquid3D
Be careful my friend. I simply sanded measured, and sanded again. It's not easy, but I wouldn't take it to a grinding wheel or anything.

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Yeah, I just want to shave a tiny bit off, nothing insane, just to up the pressure a tad.

i want to remove my ihs but not sure if it will touch 6000cu good anymore in my p4p800

Whats the mounting hardware on your CU6000 kromosto? Maybe it can be done. Have a pic or link?

by the by Stoned P just place washers under the springs, and that will increase the pressure on the chip. That's all you have to do my freind?

It's odd, but I tried all kinds of different mounting methods, I followed the instructions first, then tried it with only the plastic washers on the standoffs, then with washers on the springs, then with no washers at all, and a few other combinations.

I got the lowest temps using just one plastic washer on the standoffs, between the standoff itself and the motherboard mounting hole, I'm getting slightly higher temps at the moment, around 32 under load rather than 30c, but that's probably just because the heating is on now due to the weather.

I'll have a play about with it once I get the new motherboard through, I have an RMA number at last, so this one is going in the post tomorrow.

this my cooler and in this link there is a information about installation i have to be sure that it makes good contact because i am using this rig at work and when i did sometinh wrong and my rig stops wprking my partners go angry lol :) they told me to stop overclocking but i cant :( :D:D

http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/prod...ps6500b-cu.htm

http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/product/ZM-WB2.htm

also i got this water block but cant get my water cooler parts from one of my partners so havent tried it yet lol he is cooling his 2400+ with a home made water cooling system with a block to cool 9800pro block is also home made

Do the 1.8's have a thin layer of aluminum on top of copper? I want to know, so that way I can judge if i have gone far enough/too far ;)

Shaving off should NOT have an effect on the interface with my MCX478-V right? Since its clip mounted?

Thanks :)

mine is a SL5WJ and still dificcult to remove the IHS. Lapped the IHS 2 time and not great success.
Nik, does your P4 is the same ?
cheers
:confused:

Is there any way to crack the glue on a M0 stepping cpu ?

As far as i know some epoxy glues (ati's for examle, nvidias also) dont like acetone, the intel / amd / nvidia glue used to mount IHS'es change in to some kind of goo when they have contact with acetone, maybe the epoxy glue would also act to acetone like this ?

Trust me it's not worth destroying a $200 to $600 CPU for a maximum temp drop of 8C...

The time and effort, not to me tion the risk, would be better spent getting a Danger Den Maze-4 Powerkit for $199. You get ther excellent Maze-4 CPU block, Hydor L30 pump (320gph), Black Ice Xtreme radiator, clear plexi-reservoir, 1.5meters of 1/2" clear DD tubing, 120mm Sunon fan, and depending on how you set the kit up, a 20C drop in temps. I leave the radiator outside of the case on the cool floor, and leave all the components external of the kit. Usually my PC is under an open window, but in winter my temps drop to 8C, so peoapl are actually in disbelief.

To satisfy those who wouldn't crack a window in Winter, place their PC just beneath it, or leave the components outside of the case, I closed the windows, and let the heat rise in my room. Below are my current temps, running a 2.4C at 280FSB (1:1) at only 22C;

Liquid,

Can you show us a pic of the guts of your rig? What case are you using?

I'm real curious about the Maze-4 rig :)

Sorry about the late reply. Here's the system, the top left photo is the primary reason why the temps are sp low. This window can remain open even in Winter. I live on the 3rd floor of a 100yr-old Stone building a few hundred meters from Newport Harbor. The cool water air, keeps the building cold, th stone retains this cold. This corner room has a small window pewrpendicular to the window pictured, so there's a constant flow between them. With the components on the foor the way they are, everything is disipating it's heat into the stone-floor/walls etc. Especially having the Radiator at the lowest point, it's as cold as the floor, then facotr in "wind-chill" from the fans, and you have 11C on the mobo, but only 10C on the CPU (although where I'm stting on the bed, is about 20C or around 68F).

One reason for this is the RBX has the brass plate installed, and it's dissipating/absorbing the cool temps as well. I have the Danger Den Z-chipset block fed first, and the RBX second, although it wont remain this way, because the block has many nozzle attachements and I have the Hydor Seltz L45 now to install with it. The added pressure is almost going top create a vaporizing effect. I just need a ;large dual radiator for the larger pump. I'm simply ecstatic with the Danger Den hardware, I love it! I'm not sure where the diode measures temps on the Asus, I doubt it's on the chipset (although they should be) but if it were it would certainly explain why many days the CPU is running cooler then the mobo. If that makes sense.

Nice :) Thanks for taking the time to make the pics. If I go with water I think it will certainly be Danger Den. I hear nothing but good things.

I got my CPU lapped flat down to the copper layer and didn't really see much of a difference in temps (on air). Kinda disappointed, but o well.

By the way Nailbomb (crazy username :eek: ) welcome to the Xtreme I think if you stick around you'll find there's some really great people here!

What TIM are you using? How did you apply it? Laping the IHS is important, but if you've only lapped the IHS, and left the Heatsink replete with the micro-grooves exemplified below, your only half-way. The TIM is the medium of transfer for everybit of energy (heat) which is to be conducted away from the CPU cooling it.

Another lesson I learned from Nevin himself (owner Arctic Silver) is that, spreading the paste, incorperates air into the forumula. This incurs the same effect in the TIM, were trying to ameliorate through lapping BOTH surfaces. Simply place a small dollup (a "drop" equal to a hyper-thin layer which would cover the IHS surface) and then allow the natural clamp-down pressure to spread the TIM. Remember, the actual core size under the P4 IHS is only about 40% of the entire surface (as shown below). If using a mounting system which uses the boards mounting holes, tighten the bolts perpendicularly so that pressure is distributed evenly during the installation (tightening down process). If using the retention brackets or Ziff-tab clamps, you can center attach the heatsink, and then apply even pressure so the paste displaces evenly underneath. After a week, remove the fan, and shift the heqatsink slightly, this will actually expidite the "settling" and break-in process of the TIM. I find the best TIM's on the market are Silver based, period! AS5 is the best I've ever used, it's density makes it the ideal interfase.

ok ok i am starting to remove my ihs from 2.6c if it works i will tell the results if not work then you can read the whole story from kunaaks thread :)