Not using dielectric grease under the CPU: deathsentence or no-problem?

Hey all,

I have a question for the veteran phasecooler users:

Is it critcally important to use dielectric grease or similar under the CPU to fill the airpockets between the pins when phasecooling to below freezing, or is it just an extra precaution?

The thing is I would like to test a different motherboard to see if I should make a swap, but I don't want to mess it up more than nessecary. Since the rest of my insulation around the socket is held together without the need for dielectric grease or other messy stuff (my own homemeade neoprene design), I am wondering if it is considered safe or suicide to not fill the gap under the CPU. I have never tried myself since I tend to be on the cautios side when it comes to insulating.

I guess in theory, as long as no additional air gets in under the CPU (which it won't using my insulation method), it shouldn't generate any condensation, but I'd rather not bet the life of the motherboard and my (exellent overclocking) CPU on just my own guess.

So, i would like for your experiences with this: have you ever phasecooled without grease in the socket, and was there a problem with it? Do you usually bother with doing this?

All feedback appreciated :)

-Stigma

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Originally Posted by Stigma

I'd rather not bet the life of the motherboard and my (exellent overclocking) CPU...

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Enough said.

Some people I think don't. Most people do though I believe. If you are doing short benches maybe not as big a deal (?) but 24/7 absolutely use it.

I would guess it will be fine, but for long term i would use grease. If you indeed get moisture in the socket it is only going to crash your computer. If its constantly wet it is going to get all corroded and cause damage.

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Originally Posted by Speederlander

Enough said.

Some people I think don't. Most people do though I believe. If you are doing short benches maybe not as big a deal (?) but 24/7 absolutely use it.

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Well true, but it wouldn't be for the long term, so is several veterans here have positive experience with skipping this step of insulation without immediate problems, I will consider it. The possible boon of a better OCing motherboard may outweigh the risks if the risks are small enough :)

Whichever MB I choose to keep I won't mind greasing up as much as needed for the long-haul ;)

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Originally Posted by ak_47_boy

I would guess it will be fine, but for long term i would use grease. If you indeed get moisture in the socket it is only going to crash your computer. If its constantly wet it is going to get all corroded and cause damage.

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For clarification, I assume from the way you write that you haven't actually tested this yourself? Any input is wanted, but preferably I'd like to hear from someone who has tried it (if indeed there are any... I don't know how risky it is considered by most people ;) )

-Stigma

I don't want to side-track the thread, but one extra question while we are on the topic: For those of you who do grease the socket with something relatively non-sticky and "easy to clean" like dielectric grease, is it feasible to really clean it up afterwards to a degree where it looks like-new? if so, whats the best method? I haven't so far had a reason to clean any of the sockets I've greased up for phasecooling yet. I immagine with the tight spacing of the pins it would be very hard to do, even if the grease itself would be a sinch to clean away from any normal semi-flat surface.

The socket in question by the way is a Socket775, ie. with the pins on the montherboard instead of the CPU (like the old-school sockets used to be).

If there is some smart method that works to cleaning up the grease, or if is much easier than I immagine it is, then it would sort of render my original question moot and I could go the safe route witohut worrying about the cleanup if I choose not to keep the MB.

-Stigma

Sdumper knows this great stuf to remove dielectric. FLawless removal indeed.
Dielectric is a must, its not so much as water getting in with good insulation as is there is tiny bits of air in there already if you havent used dielectric. Often not enough for a bit of water that can cause those good old sparks and the "blue smoke" smell but can cause corrosion in the socket.
Even more critical these days with the LGA.

Quick Drying Contact Cleaner works great and evaporates very quickly...

And trust me I go through a lot of boards ....

Heres a link to CRC but other manufacturers also make quick drying contact cleaner...

http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/(4c...aspx?SKU=80882

You can buy it at most autoparts stores, Fry's, Radio shops ect...

I don't use grease on my personal boards but I tell everyone else to grease it up nice and good. I only use grease between the board and the neoprene, otherwise I seal the gap between the chip and the socket with a clay and I seal the socket and board with a clay. Works like a charm and so easy to clean up. For for noobs just grease it and forget about it.

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Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler

I don't use grease on my personal boards but I tell everyone else to grease it up nice and good. I only use grease between the board and the neoprene, otherwise I seal the gap between the chip and the socket with a clay and I seal the socket and board with a clay. Works like a charm and so easy to clean up. For for noobs just grease it and forget about it.

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I agree.... I don't use any grease in the socket either; But if you have to ask, then you probably should ;)

Just be aware that the "pins" in a 775 board are not pins, they are small spring steel strips that bend VERY easily. Be very cautious when "packing" grease in the socket and don't use too much, it can cause bad contact between the pins and cpu causing strange problems or no boot issues.

Actually I bought some... not technicly clay, but something called plasticine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticine

its like clay, but not as dirty, ie. it even easier to clean up than clay as it tends to all stay in once piece, and it dosnt harden over time. Its the same stuff as professional sculptors use. Sort of like play-dough, but with much better and more stable properties. The only thing one really needs to take into account is that it can start to run a little bit if it gets over 70'ish celcius, so its not as suitable for packing around hot pieces on the mohterboard for example.

That actually works well in the socket, and comes out witohut too much trouble? I hadn't really considered that, I just picked some up the other day in case I needed to patch up any larger holes in the neoprene insulation to make it airtight.

Thanks everyone! Between the tip that grease can be blown out with the CRC cleaner and that clay (or plasticine, thats probably what you meant to say I think) may be a valid replacement, I think I have the solutions I needed :)

Of course if there are other brilliant ideas, feel free to add them, but I think I should do fine now ;)

-Stigma

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [XC] gomeler

I don't use grease on my personal boards but I tell everyone else to grease it up nice and good. I only use grease between the board and the neoprene, otherwise I seal the gap between the chip and the socket with a clay and I seal the socket and board with a clay. Works like a charm and so easy to clean up. For for noobs just grease it and forget about it.

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Could you descrive in a little more detail exactly how you apply your plasticine (or clay, if thats actually what your using) into the socket? I mean, its probably not rocket science, but any tips you might have learned from experience are welcome, in case I try that approach to help the cleanup (since its a temporary mount).

Obviously, relatively hard putty-like material + very delicate spring-pins = need to be gentle as a feather, but if you have anything more to add, please do so :)

-Stigma

Don't put that stuff "in" the socket where the pins are..... if you feel you need something in there, then use dialectric grease or vaseline; That "clay" material is much to hard to use in the socket.

For S939/AM2 I just roll a piece of plasticine and then use it to seal the small gap between the processor and the socket plastic. The same goes for the gap between the board and the socket.

For LGA775 it's a bit more messy but still cleaner than grease. I roll a much thicker bit of plasticine that'll ring the entire socket and then use smaller bits to seal between CPU and the retention bracket. Uses a lot more plasticine but if done properly you seal up the entire socket.

Typically to remove you can just pull it up and it should come up in one piece. If it does separate and you need to pick it out then just get a toothpick, works like a charm.

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification. So you don't actually put the plasticine in the socket, but instead make a seal around the edge. I thought it sounded a bit harsh on the pins to try to force them through the relatively hard plasticine (even if its rather soft when heated up a bit)

Ok I think il go for grease in the socket then, and mold some plasticine around to take away the airpockets the neoprene dosn't cover. If I need to clean it up, I' go for the CNC spray to get the gunk out :)

Thanks for all the input.

-Stigma

One last question:

When examining the Socket775 in detail, I realize that there isn't really any room between the CU and pins in this newer type of socket, unlike with older sockets.

Am I supposed to just grease the central hole where the electronics are, or give everything a grease layer, including the pins?

The pins are so tiny that I don't know if doing so would end up making them contact the CPU badly.

-Stigma

grease it all!!! u will push the cpu down in the socket, something like pushing it realy hard and it will make contact ;) carefull when u grease it not to touch the pins(bend or break them!)

greetings,
q

Nice guide which may help you:

http://www.blazingpc.com/forum/showp...87&postcount=1


Full thread
http://www.blazingpc.com/forum/showt...316#post109316

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Originally Posted by sdumper

Nice guide which may help you:

http://www.blazingpc.com/forum/showp...87&postcount=1


Full thread
http://www.blazingpc.com/forum/showt...316#post109316

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So I should cover even the power capacitors around the socket with insulation huh? Hmmm... I was wondering about just that. I was afraid that surounding them with neoprene would cause them to overheat. I guess some cooling is given to them too since they are so close to the socket that some heat will leak in (which I guess is a good thing).

I guess I wont hesistate to cover them up then :)

EDIT: actually, since by board is kinda different I'd like to ask for some spesific advice regarding what to insulate around the socket, and what to let stay open. in order to not totally sidetrack this thread I made a new one with a proper title: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...09#post2605809
Feel free to lend your advice in that thread regarding that spesific question :)

-Stigma

You are putting a really cold block right next to the capacitors. That cools the surrounding board.

Vaseline will seperate over time and if it gets hot(ish)

I won't be using vaseline though. Im using prper dielectric grease, which is mneral based, and shouldn't seperate or run, atleast thats what my research indicates.

-Stigma

I killed my old 1400Mhz Thunderbird :o( by not insulating in there, the socket was in a horrific state so I`m sure that was it. Socket A has loads of space under it though and I don`t know about newer ones because I`ve always used grease since.

How about the vapochill heat conductive stuff? Recommended or not and why?

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Originally Posted by Speederlander

How about the vapochill heat conductive stuff? Recommended or not and why?

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You mean as a replacement for dielectric grease? I would immagine that any grese-like compund that dosn't run too easily and is electricly insulating would work fine. After all it dosnt really serve any other purpose aside from filling up the small gaps and sealing small seams in the insulation. I guess even silicone goop could be used if you really wanted to, but you can get dielectric grease or something equivalent in a decent sized tube most places, so there isn't really too much reason to look for unusual replacement materials.

-Stigma

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Originally Posted by Stigma

You mean as a replacement for dielectric grease? I would immagine that any grese-like compund that dosn't run too easily and is electricly insulating would work fine. After all it dosnt really serve any other purpose aside from filling up the small gaps and sealing small seams in the insulation. I guess even silicone goop could be used if you really wanted to, but you can get dielectric grease or something equivalent in a decent sized tube most places, so there isn't really too much reason to look for unusual replacement materials.

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Spark plug grease is sold at virtually every auto parts store, works just fine.

What brand did you buy plasticine under? I have been toying with modeling clay but it seems to get hard and I'm afraid it'll lose it's seal when exposed to extreme cold, this could be a good alternative.

Ummm lets see... I bought some product named "Giotto Pongo", looks to be produced by Fila. Plasticene is plasticine though. Its very differnt from clay i nthat it never dries or goes brittle, and I suspect it dosnt harden quite as quick as clay when the temperature lowers either. The only thing you need to be aware of is that it can start to run from excessive heat (in the area of 60-70+ celcius I hear). it wont short anything, but could make a mess I suppose.

I wouldnt really use it to create a seal though. Leave that to the grease unless its large gaps. Atleast use grease in addition to the plasticine to fill in the microscopic gaps which I immagine would be extremely hard to make airtight just with plasticine.

-Stigma

I recommend grease in socket for daily use. for benchsessions it isn't as critical since you don't run it daily with cascade and/or ln2/dice. the issue isn't the lack of grease, the issue is the water that will "fall out" of the air inside the socket and when cooling (known as frost) and when temp went up again it will be water. When fire it up again the water will make a short cuirt.

Gen. Speaking plasticine will harden in the -60c to -70c range so for most of us ss users its great, but cascade or LN2 guys I would say stay away!!!