Cascademodding the Prommy 4353 Mhz

Modding the Prometeia with R404 have been known for some time. The secret is the length of the kapillær tube;)

1.5 meter :toast:
(now you don't have to experiment any more Bowman, you can finich Oppainters Prommy)


And now some EXtreme Prommy modding:

Put some extra R404 on the Prommy, and some R132a (better start). Now the Prommy almost are going to explode, the biggest fan can't hold the temp down. Now put an old Vapochill on as cascade... At full load P4 at 1.85 volt the Vapochill temp is +14 degree.. At desktop the Vapochill drop to -17 degree.

Konklusion:
When you have ice on your kapillaertube, you have serius cooling:D

The nature of the CPU after the mod is close to LN2-cooling. low temp and high volt on the P4. But you can bench and have a stabil oc. At full load for 10 minuts the Vapochilltemp rise from -17 degree to +14 degree, but the CPU remain stabil, and the Vapochill work the temp down again.


Se the Pifastresult:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...4&goto=newpost


:banana: :banana: :banana:

Very nice results and congratulations on a fully functional and successful cascade system. :)

s-i-c-k

NUTZ!
Really a good idea!

:eek:

AWESOME !

Wow great Job, can it go any higher?

Tom, can you try to run your CPU on default voltage (1.55V i suppose) and check max clocks? Maybe not with this insane cooling though.

I'm asking 'cos my ES 3.2 works fine on 3.75G on default voltage on air (3.8G stable with waterchiller, +17C on chip) and no problems POSTing on 4.1G with that voltage... If i add any more it just get hotter and o/c worse (POST on 4.0, works on 3.7G even if it _actually_ on the same +17C). I'm waiting for Vapo now, but just trying to understand, WHY increasing voltage doesn't help me.

BTW when we'll see your 3dmark results with this monster?

Awsome!!!

What are the cpu's temps by the way?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Method Man
Awsome!!!

What are the cpu's temps by the way?

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Hi MM

The prommy display goes to to -53 and then it beebs.
I turn it of, and the display shows error code 0

The Bios and monitoring in windows shows -23 and then N/A

Quote:

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Originally posted by NyCUndaGrounD
Wow great Job, can it go any higher?

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A bit unstable over 4400:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally posted by MickeyMouse
cascade meaning one phasechange cooling another? sorry for the newb question as Im just now into vapo myself. :)

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Yes, you can read more about it in the vapor phase change sektion:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...?s=&forumid=80

Where did you put the vapochills head on the prommy system? Theres no way that the vapo on its own would condense the r404. Is it just subcooling the capillary tube?

]JR[

Quote:

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Originally posted by ]JR[
Where did you put the vapochills head on the prommy system? Theres no way that the vapo on its own would condense the r404. Is it just subcooling the capillary tube?

]JR[

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I put it after the radiator. The aircooling with big fan take some heat. The out pipe from the radiator is the right spot for cascade.
I made a cobberblock cut it in to, and mount it around the pipe.
On that cobberblock the Vapochill is mounted..

When you make cascade cooling, that is the way to do it. When done right the tube gets so cold, that you have to isolate the kapillaertube!

notis the long roll of capillaertube behind.


:toast:

LOL Tom thats nuts.

Well done getting it to work :D

Id also like to see a close pic of the vapo on the cap tube.

good going tom.:D

but this isnt cascade .....sounds cool but all you did is give is subcooling so the refirgerant wont flash over when it reaches the evaperator.

i did the same thing but with one system.you cannt get close to ln2 cooling like this my friend.

a true cascade will use the cooling power of one to allow you condense a extremely high pressure refrigerant.such as r503 ,co2,and so on.

i doubt if anyone will see the temps OPP will be seeing for a while,(unless ups drops the ball and damages it)

but this is a cool mod,my friend.:D

great going:)

so youll use a diferent coolant bowman? i can only recomend you guys to use water to cool the radaiator. i did that on the vapochill of a friend a long time ago and it made hs temps drop like 20°C. you only need a 50x30cm radiator to cool the water then :D

Quote:

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Originally posted by saaya
so youll use a diferent coolant bowman? i can only recomend you guys to use water to cool the radaiator. i did that on the vapochill of a friend a long time ago and it made hs temps drop like 20°C. you only need a 50x30cm radiator to cool the water then :D

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no the prometia cant handle anything stronger than 404.

compressor is too small for any higher pressure refidgerant

Is this a true cascade? Maybe.

If the refrigerant is condensing in the condenser and the vapo is reducing the temperature of the liquid, then it is a subcooler, not a cascade.

If the refrigerant is de-superheating in the condenser and the vapo is condensing the refrigerant, then it is a cascade.

Similar results could be achieved by putting an equivalent sized pelt where the vapo is. Again it is a subcooler or a cascade depending on whether it is subcooling or condensing refrigerant.

Either way, it is an excellent mod. Congrats. :D

damn bowman, you certainly know the phase change stuff, my man:D

if the prommies compressor cant handlöe higher pressures how are you building a better one for opp? a diferent compressor?

Quote:

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Originally posted by bowman1964
good going tom.:D

but this isnt cascade .....sounds cool but all you did is give is subcooling so the refirgerant wont flash over when it reaches the evaperator.

i did the same thing but with one system.you cannt get close to ln2 cooling like this my friend.

a true cascade will use the cooling power of one to allow you condense a extremely high pressure refrigerant.such as r503 ,co2,and so on.

i doubt if anyone will see the temps OPP will be seeing for a while,(unless ups drops the ball and damages it)

but this is a cool mod,my friend.:D

great going:)

---

But if it hit's -53.9 on the evaporator as set by chip-con then it will shut down the system. Or did you overcome this phenomenon?
Would be good if it can be circumvented with some sort of recalibration so as not to ERROR and beep.

Even -55C is a looooonnngggggg way from -196C
Not even CLOSE to LN2.
But, very cool mod.
C

i think you dont see a big dif in ocs with a -100°C cpu and a -200°C cpu... aynthing lower than -100°C would be a waste...

very nice

*tips hat*

Very nice indeed. :cool:

Excellent job with the cooling :)
You are getting closer to the same speeds as my ghetto waterchiller setup produces.
Must have been a fair amount of work involved.
I comend you on being able to do youre own modifications.
Instead of having someone do it for you:)

Quote:

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i think you dont see a big dif in ocs with a -100°C cpu and a -200°C cpu... aynthing lower than -100°C would be a waste...

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No doubt there must be a point of diminishing returns, where further cooling yields little or no improvement, but nobody seems to know where that point is. If we knew this, we could design for it.

Here is something some people have learned from ln2 experiments with the latest P4 chips:
'dont keep the base (in other words the part of the cooler which is making the contact with CPU) of the cooler any colder than -120C'

Quote:

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Here is something some people have learned from ln2 experiments with the latest P4 chips:
'dont keep the base (in other words the part of the cooler which is making the contact with CPU) of the cooler any colder than -120C'

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Thanks. That gives us a target to shoot for: -120C/-184F.

This would take a three stage cascade with something like R14 in the low stage, and something like ethane or ethylene in the middle stage.

Quote:

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Originally posted by LORD
But if it hit's -53.9 on the evaporator as set by chip-con then it will shut down the system. Or did you overcome this phenomenon?
Would be good if it can be circumvented with some sort of recalibration so as not to ERROR and beep.

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Right.

I use 2 PSU one for the PC and one for the Prommy

First I start the prommy (and the Vapochill) when the temp going sub -53 the the errorbeb sound. Then push the left top button
the sound stop. Now start the PC.

If you use only R404 Prommy without cascade (or not -Bowman)
the temp may go higher than -53 and the display will work again. later the beep might sound again. Then just turn it of again. The PC remain on, and cooled.

You can calibrate -change the value on P14 to something lower. The display might show something -65 or -74 or something. It won't help the real temp under -53 will still activate the errorbeep.

PS: I have never before loaded the vapochill so hevy, that it won't go under zero. I then found out, that a modded PSU (380 Wat 12.3 volt) was to small.! The volt goes under 11.4 volt, and the Vapochill turned of.... I now use a lab powersupp. 12.8 volt together with the fan's and 2 Prommy (one for GRU) it takes almost 15 amp.


:slobber:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Lloyd
No doubt there must be a point of diminishing returns, where further cooling yields little or no improvement, but nobody seems to know where that point is. If we knew this, we could design for it.

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These "returns" aren't quite diminished.
:sick:
edit: OC by TAM, of course.

why did they say dont go under -120°C? what happened? no improvement in ocs or did the core crush or smthn?

Quote:

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These "returns" aren't quite diminished.

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I don't know what any of that means. I am totally clueless when it comes to overclocking, and you would not believe the dinosaur I call my computer.

On the other hand, I have been trouble shooting and fine tuning refrigeration systems (from cascades to 3600 HP chillers and everything in between) for over 35 years, and have written several books on the subject.

Gary,
With those refrigeration skills of yours...you NEED a fast computer! Point is, performance INDEED increases with lowering of temp. This is a slightly outdated LN2 benchmark that the owner can probably outdo handily today. It seems that the best phase-change cooling in the hobby can only get a P4 stable up to about 4400mhz. With LN2 these same chips are going 10% faster at stable settings.
WOW! You should apply those skills of yours into a side business! VapoChill and Prometeia do a nice bit of business.
C

MAcci,
That's scary. That looks 99% like MY kid! ;)
C

Macci, what happens at -120c? I was planning on going much colder.

My side business is the books, which BTW would be extremely helpful to everyone in here, including those who are in the refrigeration industry. :D

I will soon be retiring and the books will be my only business. I have considered building low stage systems for people who have chillers they can use for the high stage. Who knows. I may do that yet if there is a market for them.

Gary,
Take a look at
http://www.chip-con.com/
it's pretty much the best out there...and they get $1000 for an upgrade model (like -55C at the evap)

Quote:

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Originally posted by LORD
But if it hit's -53.9 on the evaporator as set by chip-con then it will shut down the system. Or did you overcome this phenomenon?
Would be good if it can be circumvented with some sort of recalibration so as not to ERROR and beep.

---

Just put a resistor in parallel to the temp sensor (use terminals 7 & 8 of the controller). This will increase the temp sensor reading.

The resistor value seems to be different for each prom. I settled for an 820kohm which gave a +5 deg C jump in the readings. This was enough to cope with the lowest load at idle (got down to -57 deg C ... readout was -52).

When you are manufacturing and marketing something, volume is everything. The rule is, go big or don't go. One of a kind mods are extremely expensive in terms of time. Bowman can tell you that he couldn't possibly charge for the hours spent. It is for him a labor of love, although he may eventually have something going with direct die block assemblies if mass produced. :D

Quote:

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Originally posted by FUGGER
Macci, what happens at -120c? I was planning on going much colder.

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CPU stops operating properly at around that temp.

The older NWs (this is with 1.8A) could take a lot colder temps thou :D
http://www.solidhardware.com/macci/nwln2/7s.jpg
This particular 1.8A hit around 2850MHz aircooled, a bit over 3100MHz using -40C antifreeze and 3563MHz using LN2.

Nice setup.

Keep it well dusted,

At least I think you have no bugs, they will stick to the cold surfaces;)

If we you where closer to Denmark, I think we could take my 4353mhz an put your 5900ultra on it, that might give some nice 3Dmark scores:toast:

YOur system speed coupled with my video speed would indeed do some damage in 3DMark! :toast:

I think I need to get a new CPU thats not so mobo/FSB limited :D

Quote:

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At least I think you have no bugs, they will stick to the cold surfaces

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ROFL.

That i have to see :D

tom*

du er seriøst for vild..

Thanks Tom Holck.

Oh yeah excellent results and cascade (Subcooling) mod :)

CodeRed, thanks as well. If it works as you've pointed out, then it seems a good option. Trick the sensor. :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by ALT-F13
Tom, can you try to run your CPU on default voltage (1.55V i suppose) and check max clocks? Maybe not with this insane cooling though.

I'm asking 'cos my ES 3.2 works fine on 3.75G on default voltage on air (3.8G stable with waterchiller, +17C on chip) and no problems POSTing on 4.1G with that voltage... If i add any more it just get hotter and o/c worse (POST on 4.0, works on 3.7G even if it _actually_ on the same +17C). I'm waiting for Vapo now, but just trying to understand, WHY increasing voltage doesn't help me.

BTW when we'll see your 3dmark results with this monster?

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I think the max oc depends of voltage AND cooling. My new cascade R404 Prommy can go 4050 Mhz on default 1.55 Volt

I think 3.75 on air is nice, but 3.8 with waterchiller is bad.

Some ES chips oc realy bad. That might be your problem. Have You tried another chip (fx 2.4/800) to compair the system?
Looking forward to see what You can do on Vapo-cooling.

:toast:

tom

hit some buttons to get the beep away ;)
i have a m1 doing -57 on 507
P25=-50 (low temps alarm) mine = -60

http://www.tweakers.net/ext/f/9568/full.jpg
this display is more adjustable then the m2

i have a slot version vapo en a classic also
maybe i can use my m2 to cool te m1 :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by petervandamned
tom

hit some buttons to get the beep away ;)
i have a m1 doing -57 on 507
P25=-50 (low temps alarm) mine = -60

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that doesnt stop the alarms on mine.
P25 is set to -99 for me

the only thing that worked was the resistor mod, just a bit hard to calibrate.

1.8v? hmmm try another P4 with newer stepping, might reach 4.5ghz+ with a better chip.

Nice work! :slobber:

Do you think that a watercooled pelt in place of the Vapo could assist an R404 system with somewhat similar results?

Quote:

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Originally posted by CodeRed
that doesnt stop the alarms on mine.
P25 is set to -99 for me

the only thing that worked was the resistor mod, just a bit hard to calibrate.

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When you change P25 to -99 you don't change the beeb.
Puch the left top button...

when you do the resistor mod, you don't have the right temp.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally posted by petervandamned
tom

hit some buttons to get the beep away ;)
i have a m1 doing -57 on 507
P25=-50 (low temps alarm) mine = -60

http://www.tweakers.net/ext/f/9568/full.jpg
this display is more adjustable then the m2

i have a slot version vapo en a classic also
maybe i can use my m2 to cool te m1 :)

---

Thats fake, you can change the calibration on the prommy. Then its no big deal to get -57 or -67 or -77 you name it.
The beeb sounds when the temp drop below -54 on the sensor.
The display can be higher or lower..

The kompressor can't handle pure R507a

R404a is a mixture of: R143a/R125a/R134a : 52%/44%/4%
R507a is a mixture of: R143a/R125a : 50%/50%

boiling point: R143a = -47.5
R125a = -48.4
R134a= -26.5

When you haven't vacuum your Prommy, there is some R134a
left, and the R507a can work (the mixture is practicaly R404!!)
pure R507a and the compressor won't start.;)

BTW I was told (I study electronics) that silicon doesent work under -100°C, that happens because number of free carriers (electrons) in silicon starts to fall exponently at this temperature. Silicon is useable between -100°C and 300°C, so cooling chips under -100°C won't get you anywhere.

And I tought that water cooling is xtreme...

I thought CPU's cooled to absolute zero became super conductors?

http://www.3dnow.net/views/overclocking2.htm

Well LN2 chips are still a fair way off that ;)

-273c isn't it?

The boys in Japan have proven that anything

beyond -120C is futile.

And they play with LN2.



Pops.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Niven
I thought CPU's cooled to absolute zero became super conductors?

http://www.3dnow.net/views/overclocking2.htm

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At absolute zero everything becomes super conductive, and here is the main problem. There is "no" transistors in CPU at -273°C. Everything that electricity "sees" at this temperature is one pice of supercondictive material.

thats really a nice oc man , cool how you fixed it to cool your prommy a little more !!

my compliments!!

Hmm.. guess that means i'll have to shoot for ~ -100c...

oops, i've said too much...

Quote:

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Originally posted by [SLC]Tachyon
Nice work! :slobber:

Do you think that a watercooled pelt in place of the Vapo could assist an R404 system with somewhat similar results?

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No, thats not sufficient with a pelt. Icewater might do, but it has to be cold.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Holck
I think the max oc depends of voltage AND cooling. My new cascade R404 Prommy can go 4050 Mhz on default 1.55 Volt

I think 3.75 on air is nice, but 3.8 with waterchiller is bad.

Some ES chips oc realy bad. That might be your problem. Have You tried another chip (fx 2.4/800) to compair the system?
Looking forward to see what You can do on Vapo-cooling.

:toast:

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Very true, my first 3.2es could only get to 2.8 or so, second one was the charm :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Holck
Thats fake, you can change the calibration on the prommy. Then its no big deal to get -57 or -67 or -77 you name it.
The beeb sounds when the temp drop below -54 on the sensor.
The display can be higher or lower..

The kompressor can't handle pure R507a

R404a is a mixture of: R143a/R125a/R134a : 52%/44%/4%
R507a is a mixture of: R143a/R125a : 50%/50%

boiling point: R143a = -47.5
R125a = -48.4
R134a= -26.5

When you haven't vacuum your Prommy, there is some R134a
left, and the R507a can work (the mixture is practicaly R404!!)
pure R507a and the compressor won't start.;)

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this is no fake !!!!!
actualy i have 2 time 507a proms one!!!!!
ask Kloster from chip-con about my rigs ;)
i am having a upgrade day in the netherlands later this month
to upgrade proms and vapo to or 404 or 507

i have a specialist doing this :)

my beeps or error0 will appear by -60
sure i know the trick with the sensor but i think you dont know what other posible settings with the display you can do :)
ask also mr JCViggen he knows what i am using been here several time in my house
for the mach 1 i have all the settings in dutch

man r507 is pushing it imo, what kind of temps are you getting on the compressor and he condenser? r507 is a fairly high pressure refrigerant compared to r134a.

Quote:

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Originally posted by ellsworth
man r507 is pushing it imo, what kind of temps are you getting on the compressor and he condenser? r507 is a fairly high pressure refrigerant compared to r134a.

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baking a egg on the unit now ;)
hot very hot the outlet you can use for the kitchen oven

is just my test rig
in the latest heatwave my temps were at the highest at -45 doing a pifast at max oc and max volts
but a house fan will work out fine for extra cooling the unit

as seen on the starter pics i will surely test this one day
when i having my holliday next month

tested my first rig on 507
http://www.tweakers.net/ext/f/9916/thumb.jpg

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Holck
When you change P25 to -99 you don't change the beeb.
Puch the left top button...

when you do the resistor mod, you don't have the right temp.

:rolleyes:

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Tom,
Here's how to get the resistor mod working and approximately accurate temp readouts on the display (and no beeps)

Power up and enter "administrator" mode on the carel controller. This is done by holding down the SEL and PRG key simultaneously for 5 sec. Then enter the value 77 into the display (this is the password ;)) Now set C21 to -99 and C23 to -99. These are the minimum values for setpoint 1 and setpoint 2. You can now program your condensor fan and heater element to operate below -50 deg C. Also set P25 to -99. This is the low temp alarm point. Hit PRG to exit.

Shut down and connect two wires to terminals 7 & 8 of the carel controller. These are the thermister pins. Later we will connect a resisitor in parallel with the thermistor to adjust its reading.

Power up and find a combination of Vcore and speed that give a reading of say -50 deg C. Make sure the temp doesnt vary.

Connect a 10MOhm pot across the two wires. Set the pot to 10MOhms.

Slowly lower the pot value (pause for 10 sec between adjustments to let the display catch up). The temp readout should increase slowly. When it hits -45 stop.

Now adjust P14 by -5 deg C and the readout should show -50 deg C again.

This method lets me go down to -58 deg C without the beeps and with an approximately accurate redout.

The only problem is that the readout is only calibrated at one temp. Below -50 deg C is will read too high and above -50 deg C it will read too low. The error is negligible (say +/- 1 deg C)between -60 deg C and -40 deg C (my working range).

Also it is wise to lower P26 to -35 deg C since at this temp you will read 5 deg C too low and you dont want to cook anything :)

Hope thats clear enough.

Quote:

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Originally posted by CodeRed
Tom,
Here's how to get the resistor mod working and approximately accurate temp readouts on the display (and no beeps)

Power up and enter "administrator" mode on the carel controller. This is done by holding down the SEL and PRG key simultaneously for 5 sec. Then enter the value 77 into the display (this is the password ;)) Now set C21 to -99 and C23 to -99. These are the minimum values for setpoint 1 and setpoint 2. You can now program your condensor fan and heater element to operate below -50 deg C. Also set P25 to -99. This is the low temp alarm point. Hit PRG to exit.

Shut down and connect two wires to terminals 7 & 8 of the carel controller. These are the thermister pins. Later we will connect a resisitor in parallel with the thermistor to adjust its reading.

Power up and find a combination of Vcore and speed that give a reading of say -50 deg C. Make sure the temp doesnt vary.

Connect a 10MOhm pot across the two wires. Set the pot to 10MOhms.

Slowly lower the pot value (pause for 10 sec between adjustments to let the display catch up). The temp readout should increase slowly. When it hits -45 stop.

Now adjust P14 by -5 deg C and the readout should show -50 deg C again.

This method lets me go down to -58 deg C without the beeps and with an approximately accurate redout.

The only problem is that the readout is only calibrated at one temp. Below -50 deg C is will read too high and above -50 deg C it will read too low. The error is negligible (say +/- 1 deg C)between -60 deg C and -40 deg C (my working range).

Also it is wise to lower P26 to -35 deg C since at this temp you will read 5 deg C too low and you dont want to cook anything :)

Hope thats clear enough.

---

Yes, thats all right, but it only works on Mark II.

The pressure and the results on Mark I using R404a is better
than on the Mark II !!
;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Holck
Yes, thats all right, but it only works on Mark II.

The pressure and the results on Mark I using R404a is better
than on the Mark II !!
;)

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Mark II??? Do you mean Mach II

I did this on my Mach I prommmy with R404a.

The Mach II prommy has a completely different controller and temp sensor, I have no idea how to recalibrate that.

Codered>

That is very useful information. Thanks for sharing...

Du er for syg tom!!

Yeiks, sorry ... tom you sick bastard...

how do you afford this kind of stuff in DK ?, jesus a good CWC cost easily around 500-700$ (4000DKK)....

well nice though, but really space consuming eih... :O)


B/

Tom, I have modded a number of prometeia mach I with 507 (fuggers and Ops among others)) and neither one has trouble starting... First no cap mod is nessassary, new filter/drier,service ports in high side and low side,Triple evac with final to 250 microns, I charge in no load to 4" vacume running stable for 30 min. Then I connect a p4 load and check pressure and check that running pressure is 2"to 4" vacume if higher I remove a very small amount at a time til I get optimum temps under load... With a P4 fully loaded benchmarking I get -49, unloaded the display errors out... There is a wait time of three minuets before restart, this should no matter what the charge.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Holck
Thats fake, you can change the calibration on the prommy. Then its no big deal to get -57 or -67 or -77 you name it.
The beeb sounds when the temp drop below -54 on the sensor.
The display can be higher or lower..

The kompressor can't handle pure R507a

R404a is a mixture of: R143a/R125a/R134a : 52%/44%/4%
R507a is a mixture of: R143a/R125a : 50%/50%

boiling point: R143a = -47.5
R125a = -48.4
R134a= -26.5

When you haven't vacuum your Prommy, there is some R134a
left, and the R507a can work (the mixture is practicaly R404!!)
pure R507a and the compressor won't start.;)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Popcicle
The boys in Japan have proven that anything

beyond -120C is futile.

And they play with LN2.



Pops.

---

Those japs are muy loco, i mean

very crazy.

I think its time you guys tried out some liquid helium and blew those japs away. Boils at -269 degrees celsius :)

-269c would be TOO cold though, have you read the thread?

He knows that. His joking Walrusbronzo ;)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Walrusbonzo
-269c would be TOO cold though, have you read the thread?

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Yes i read it and i know of the dangers :) Still it would be nice to be 4 kelvin from absolute zero ;)

Hey don't laugh I got a cryo pump that will do a 70W load at 40degK and a 1Watt load @14K load it uses water for first Helium with 1.5 hp compressor second stage and for third and fourth it uses a stirling/jenkin cycle
cryo pump .... I'll post pics... I am going to try it under a 200W load and see how cold it gets... I suspect that it will go to at least -200C but who knows..............
I have to figure out how to adapt the cold head to a processor.