King of the Elbows, Copper goodness

Just wanted to follow up on the previous post I had. I took the advice of several memeber and tried one of the copper fittings.

Long story short, one 1/2" nylon elbow is as restrictive as 9 copper 90s:eek:

Pics:
http://www.overclock.net/gallery/dat...SideBySide.jpg

Opening comparison:
http://www.overclock.net/gallery/dat...ioOpenings.jpg

And the results: http://www.overclock.net/gallery/dat...rioPDcurve.jpg

Also made this Wye fitting for my new stinger V8 (Dual Outlet) test runs. I really like the copper, I might do more just for something different.
http://www.overclock.net/gallery/dat...stomCopper.jpg

Great info!

I've used a couple of these elbows before (from Farnell) they have G1/4 female threads, a large 11mm ID throughout and a slightly rounded bend although not as good as the swept copper elbow. With a G1/4 coupler, these can easily be mounted to a block or rad.

http://export.farnell.com/productima...d/42347695.jpg

Something to keep in mind for those looking for elbow solutions.

Martin... PM me your mailing address and I'll send you one in the mail to test.

Cheers,
-Chris.

Makes sense that the more gentle curve would have the least losses. I'm wondering if the inner diameters of the fittings are different enough to make a difference.
I once needed to make a tight 180° and I used several 45° copper fittings to do the job. So I am curious how two 45° fittings would perform compared to a single 90° fitting. Also, I believe you have mentioned testing a 5/8" Nylon elbow, maybe you could put that data on the figure for more comparison.
I am curious about your testing methods, is there an earlier post you made that details your procedure?
Nice work on the custom wye. Was it a PITA to make?

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Originally Posted by virtualrain

Great info!

I've used a couple of these elbows before (from Farnell) they have G1/4 female threads, a large 11mm ID throughout and a slightly rounded bend although not as good as the swept copper elbow. With a G1/4 coupler, these can easily be mounted to a block or rad.

http://export.farnell.com/productima...d/42347695.jpg

Something to keep in mind for those looking for elbow solutions.

Martin... PM me your mailing address and I'll send you one in the mail to test.

Cheers,
-Chris.

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You have PM, thanks!

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Originally Posted by Barb

Makes sense that the more gentle curve would have the least losses. I'm wondering if the inner diameters of the fittings are different enough to make a difference.
I once needed to make a tight 180° and I used several 45° copper fittings to do the job. So I am curious how two 45° fittings would perform compared to a single 90° fitting. Also, I believe you have mentioned testing a 5/8" Nylon elbow, maybe you could put that data on the figure for more comparison.
I am curious about your testing methods, is there an earlier post you made that details your procedure?
Nice work on the custom wye. Was it a PITA to make?

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I've since made a crude pitot tube out of my nylon 5/8" elbow, need to grab another one.

This is basically my test method, just very basic two manometers measuring inches of water for pressure, and the time it takes to fill 3 gallons of water. I typically measure down to a 1/4" of water, so it's actually a good setup for small pressure drops because of the good sensitivity.

http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...rop-curve.html

I've since been also correcting out my manometer test bed pressure drop which although small is important for these smaller pressure drop comparisons. So I plot my data in Excel, create an uncorrected poly. Subtract the test bed poly from the uncorrected and I have a new corrected polynomial curve and that's what the above curves are. I also have a home made pitot tube setup that I use on my outlet now that helps me spread out my data points better (I've calibrated .5GPM increments on it).

Anyhow, if Chris is going to send me one of his elbows, I'll grab another nylon 5/8" from my local store and test them both at the same time. The only previous test I had run on the 5/8" was a pump flow rate test with some elbows. I suspect from those results the 5/8" elbows should perform about as well..maybe better than the DD derlin elbow.

WYE

And yes it was a total PITA to make that wye...hehe. Copper conducts heat far too well, and I was having a bad case of not enough hands when three pieces wanted to go separate ways as the whole thing would reach proper temperature at the same time. A large pencil soldering iron may be better than the benz-o-matic torch I used as you'd probably be able to isolate the heating better.

Like your braising. Very neat

you should try a copper T for comparision.
Good work!

Great job.

I find it easiest to braze copper heated on a hot plate, frees up you hand especially for bigger parts and awkward shapes.

Imo the best looking solution are weld-in elbows, preferably long sweep 5/8.

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Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

Great solder job Martinm210, used a dremel to cut your tubing ? also helps to tin the pieces ends an a third hand

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Oh, like that third hand, id do have a soldering iron with some similar clips, but it only had two arm.

And no I didn't use the dremel for cutting. I have one of those $99 Ryobi band saws from Home Depot with a metal cutting blade, it works great for cutting copper tubing, then I just put the faces on my belt sander to true them up nicely. I did use the dremel to do a little drum sanding on my weld before I polished it.

I used to do a little welding many years ago, but not much braising. I always said, if your not a good welder, you can make up alot by being a good grinder:D

Great comparison Data!

Can you tell me something though......?
How are you securing your tubing to the Copper 90* and your Copper Y? I mean there is no barb.... are you putting silicone on the copper tube and the sliding your Tubing over it then worm drive clamping?
I would be scared as hell that my RD-30 would jettison my tubing off of the copper 90*. I actually thought about copper fittings and tube runs in my box - but shyed away from it - but with your 90* data... I might introduce it back into my loop - if I can figure out how you are attaching your tubing. :)
Thanks

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Originally Posted by XS_RoB

Great comparison Data!

Can you tell me something though......?
How are you securing your tubing to the Copper 90* and your Copper Y? I mean there is no barb.... are you putting silicone on the copper tube and the sliding your Tubing over it then worm drive clamping?
I would be scared as hell that my RD-30 would jettison my tubing off of the copper 90*. I actually thought about copper fittings and tube runs in my box - but shyed away from it - but with your 90* data... I might introduce it back into my loop - if I can figure out how you are attaching your tubing. :)
Thanks

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I thought about that and figured I may take some rough sandpaper to create some perpendicular roughness to it, and I do use wormdrive clamps. But the 7/16"ID and the 1/2" ID tubing I put on the fittings are really hard to get back off. The OD of 1/2" copper tubing is actually pretty close to 5/8" so the tubing is streatched nice and tight. But regardless if I did have an RD 30, I'd probably roughen the ends with sandpaper and if you wanted to go even further, use a little contact adhesive to slip it on and worm drive clamp it. For a failsafe check connect it to your pump and pinch off the tubing behind it on a safe bench to pressure test it (That'll be much more pressure than you'd see in operation).

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I thought about that and figured I may take some rough sandpaper to create some perpendicular roughness to it, and I do use wormdrive clamps. But the 7/16"ID and the 1/2" ID tubing I put on the fittings are really hard to get back off. The OD of 1/2" copper tubing is actually pretty close to 5/8" so the tubing is streatched nice and tight. But regardless if I did have an RD 30, I'd probably roughen the ends with sandpaper and if you wanted to go even further, use a little contact adhesive to slip it on and worm drive clamp it. For a failsafe check connect it to your pump and pinch off the tubing behind it on a safe bench to pressure test it (That'll be much more pressure than you'd see in operation).

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Hmmmm, I was just thinking maybe you were soldering Barbs or fittings on the end and just didn't post it yet! So I was on the right track.... roughen it up with sandpaper - a little sealant - slide the tubing over and clamp it down tight. Let dry over night then Pinch the tubing a little past the elbow and see if the pressure causes it to release.

Sweet! :up: I have just seen people solder fittings(barbs) to heater cores and thought you were doing the same to each side! :shrug: Thanks!

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Originally Posted by XS_RoB

Hmmmm, I was just thinking maybe you were soldering Barbs or fittings on the end and just didn't post it yet! So I was on the right track.... roughen it up with sandpaper - a little sealant - slide the tubing over and clamp it down tight. Let dry over night then Pinch the tubing a little past the elbow and see if the pressure causes it to release.

Sweet! :up: I have just seen people solder fittings(barbs) to heater cores and thought you were doing the same to each side! :shrug: Thanks!

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Yep, that's what I was thinking, but someone else with more copper experience suggested that you can create nice and neat knurl lines by using a tubing cutter, get an extra wheel and dull it off slightly and press in some barb like lines in the tubing that way for extra grip. Havn't tried that myself, but it sounds like a slick way to do it. Adding barbs would only add more restriction.

very nice work!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I thought about that and figured I may take some rough sandpaper to create some perpendicular roughness to it, and I do use wormdrive clamps. But the 7/16"ID and the 1/2" ID tubing I put on the fittings are really hard to get back off. The OD of 1/2" copper tubing is actually pretty close to 5/8"...

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I'd just like to clarify the tube sizes that we should be getting here, since the tube spec listed with copper pipe fittings refers to copper tube, but we're using Tygon or similar.

It looks like you're saying that it's ok to use copper fittings with tube-ends sized to our Tygon ID - for instance, a copper fitting sized for 1/2" ID copper tube will still work with 1/2" ID Tygon, although the Tygon will now need to fit over a ~5/8" diameter on the copper tube end, right? This may actually be preferable in terms of good sealing. Is this correct? Can we assume that this is true for all common tubing sizes?

Also, if anyone has any idea where to get a nice variety of fittings like this, I'd appreciate links. Mcmaster seems to have a lot of male/female threaded tube fittings, but not many pipe-to-pipe fittings. I'd think that people on this forum could make the most use of tube-to-tube fittings, male 3/8" NPT to tube fittings, and male G1/4 to tube fittings, in 45 and 90 degree bends.

Edit: looks like Pexsupply might have what we're looking for, although their descriptions aren't exactly detailed.

bump for sticky.

definitely made me think about a copper angle on my next build.

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Originally Posted by NicePants42

Edit: looks like Pexsupply might have what we're looking for, although their descriptions aren't exactly detailed.

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Thanks for the link...I got an email out inquiring what the thread size is on this:

http://pexsupply.com/img/productImag...lbows(CxM).jpg

If it's close enough to stick into my Thermochill, I'll probably go through the PITA of tearing my machine apart to change the McMaster elbow setup I have now.

Great thread, had no idea there was such a difference.

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

definitely made me think about a copper angle on my next build.

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same here :eek:

glad my build isn't together yet :) i have a chance to plan to have some of these in there

FYI
You don't necessarily have to sweat on the straight pieces. I bought a couple of T fittings this week and found the tubing (even 7/16" ID) will go over the larger flared ends. This will make the fitting even more compact and flow just as well with less fuss.

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

FYI
You don't necessarily have to sweat on the straight pieces. I bought a couple of T fittings this week and found the tubing (even 7/16" ID) will go over the larger flared ends. This will make the fitting even more compact and flow just as well with less fuss.

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seriously martinm, you just answered a really tough bend area for me on my next rebuild.

Running 2 gpu's on the P5K-DLX with EK blocks is a serious PITA. If i use a elbow im sure it would make things a lot easier.

These copper fittings look awesome. I'm surprised someone hasn't thought of making these copper elbows and tees (with the straight pieces) available for sale here for fellow XS members. (That is, in the XS for sale/classified section of course.) :up:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

FYI
You don't necessarily have to sweat on the straight pieces. I bought a couple of T fittings this week and found the tubing (even 7/16" ID) will go over the larger flared ends. This will make the fitting even more compact and flow just as well with less fuss.

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I tried to get 7/16" ID tubing over the 5/8" OD flares of a 1/2" copper tee, and the tee is just too darn big. How did you do it?

I've always said to use copper elbows if you want the least for resistance. lol. Nice that someone finally tested it.

[QUOTE=I tried to get 7/16" ID tubing over the 5/8" OD flares of a 1/2" copper tee, and the tee is just too darn big. How did you do it?[/QUOTE]

Try using a tiny bit of dishsoap on the fitting.

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Originally Posted by ElEctric_EyE

Try using a tiny bit of dishsoap on the fitting.

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I ended up using an old bottle of 99.5% glycerine I had lying around, works pretty good as a lubricant... I slabbered it all over the fitting and in the tubing and eventually I got it on... I'm such a weakling. :rolleyes:

Using dish soap is a great idea too, thanks. I would've tried that if I didn't have the glycerine.

Put the end of the tubing in hot water. No lube.

With Tygon 3603 I can just push it on with force, but with Masterkleer 7/16, I prestreatch the tubing a little before hand just using some square nosed plyers, pushing the tubing on as far as I can and expanding the plyers in reverse. Then it slips on.

I've even managed to get 1/2" tubing on a 3/4" barb this way, but that too some serious work.

Also you want to make sure the copper end is deburred nicely or it can try to start cutting in..

If you really want low resistance then use "Long Radius" 90's. His picture is a "Short Radius" 90 and are quite a bit more restrictive. If you have tubing benders just bend a 90 out of 1/2" copper or stainless for easy tubing assembly and no scale inside the tube.

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

I always said, if your not a good welder, you can make up alot by being a good grinder:D

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:rofl: yes so true

BTW, just so I'm not misleading folks that I'm still making these.

I'm not, sorry. I'm working on my home projects for a few months so all fabrication projects have stopped.

I would recommend that you consider these Q-Pex 3/4" brass fittings, they are the next best thing to copper.

Elbows:
You can find these at alot of home improvement centers. They have nicely radiused interior bends, so they will have miminal pressure drop.
http://www.pexsupply.com/categories....D=546&brandid=
http://www.pexsupply.com/img/categor...opex-elbow.gif

Tees:
http://www.pexsupply.com/categories....D=552&brandid=
http://www.pexsupply.com/img/categor...dropex-tee.gif

Ah nice I saw a bunch of those at my local hardware store, and was wondering how they would impact my loop. Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martinm210

BTW, just so I'm not misleading folks that I'm still making these.

I'm not, sorry. I'm working on my home projects for a few months so all fabrication projects have stopped.

I would recommend that you consider these Q-Pex 3/4" brass fittings, they are the next best thing to copper.

Elbows:
You can find these at alot of home improvement centers. They have nicely radiused interior bends, so they will have miminal pressure drop.
http://www.pexsupply.com/categories....D=546&brandid=
http://www.pexsupply.com/img/categor...opex-elbow.gif

Tees:
http://www.pexsupply.com/categories....D=552&brandid=
http://www.pexsupply.com/img/categor...dropex-tee.gif

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LOL, talking about those nice tees, here's mine being used (I even used a PEX brass plug as well, 1/2" ones for my tubing so it's slighty oversized). The total cost is less than 1 buck for both :

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...n/DSCF1374.jpg

Very nice! Another Canuck too! I like your build log!

I'm using 2 of those 90's, 2 tees and 2 plugs :)

I love Canadian tire :p

Martins 90s and Ts looked better. :)

Wow, I've been using copper 90* fittings in my rigs since I started WC'ing.
I use the 1/2" fittings and warm the fittings and the tubing up with boiling water
then slip the tubing over the fittings to get a tight fit. When the fittings and the tubing cool down, it is such a tight fit that there is no need for clamps. These are currently in my Gigabyte 3D Aurora with a BIX II mounted on the outside rear w/ 4 90* fittings to get the tubing in the case.

There is any info about Bitspower Crystal L Block?

http://www.mountainmods.com/images/i...g/BP-LB-CL.jpg

Thanks Martin, I'm going to have to remember this for when I go water.

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Originally Posted by Fox

There is any info about Bitspower Crystal L Block?

http://www.mountainmods.com/images/i...g/BP-LB-CL.jpg

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I have some personal experience with these. If your barbs don't have extremely short threading don't go with them. The EK and D-Tek barbs have longer threads, the bitspower barbs may work. Because the threading is too long you can't screw them in all the way and if you try they crack.

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Originally Posted by Fox

There is any info about Bitspower Crystal L Block?

http://www.mountainmods.com/images/i...g/BP-LB-CL.jpg

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I ordered a handful for giggles . . .I personally think Martin should work with DD to get some cool bends into commerical production ;)

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