F2 Extreme Radiators for Extreme watercooling
I´ve been developing watercooling products for some years. In this time, I´ve tested most of the products available, about 90% of the high efficiency wc systems available in the market. In all of them, besides evaluating their performance, I also looked for mistakes, always trying to understand the tecnology used, and trying to find ways to improve their efficiency. In all of them, what caught my attention were the radiators.... All were very inefficient, and highly flow restricted. These factors limited the cooling systems I was evaluating in extreme Ocs...
Of course they can´t do the cooling work all by themself: a high performance water block and a strong water pump is also needed... I tested most of them, and will do a brief explanation of what I think is important concerning watercooling
About the tubing and hose barbs: I use modified hose barbs... I´ll explain: My hose barbs are modified, having the liquid flow coming from the tubing in mind. They have their inner width widened to the max and polished. The mods on the inlets of these hose barbs is to keep a straigh line from the tubing to them, avoiding turbulance in the incoming liquid that would decrease flow rate. I use a 50% silicone ½ inch tubing, which is extremely flexible and has a bigger inner width, when compared to other ½ inch tubings available in the market, and it fits my hose barbs perfectly.
These tubings are custom made for me by a manufacturer near my town, and are capable of doing a complete 4 inch radius circle without any obstruction or deformation. I use these tubings and hose barbs in all my water cooling kits, extreme ones or not.
About the F2 Extreme radiators: I would like to give some personal beliefs about the commom radiators used today for water cooling before explaining my radiators.
None of the radiators I tested, at least from what I know, are made exclusively for watercooling . For example, Dtek, one of the most used radiator, is simply a regular air heater radiator used in cars. The only difference is its size and headers. All the rest, including the Z form flat tubes, the tanks, the fins, are the same that are used in 90% of today´s cars air heaters. They are probably made by Delphi, since its identical, except for its size and headers, to the ones I tested. They are exactly the same heatcores made for the Chevette air heater, usually recommended in this Forums as a cheap solution. In my opinion, they´re highly restrictive and inefficient when used for watercooling.
The same thing happens with the old (refrigerator´s condenser) and new Innovatek radiators, as well as the Black Ice and Black Ice Extreme from Danger Den, which are also made by Delphi, and uses the same flat tubes, headers and fins used in other heatcores made by Delphi, most of them used in air heaters for cars. Again, these too are extremely restrictive, with low heat exchange and not innovative.
If you look for a air heater radiator in na auto´s parts shop, you will see that 50% are identical to the ones used by Dtek, and the other 50% are exactly the same used by Dangerden and Innovatek... Always the same thing, the only difference is the size, inlet type and, sometimes, the material used in it...
I wanted much more than the market could offer me... I knew how a watercooler radiator should be, and I would not do as the others did, using radiators based in trivial heatcores, inefficient and flow restrictive, usually used for air heaters... What I wanted was a perfect watercooling radiator, at least from my point of view.... Specially designed for watercooling use... And that´s how my F2 Extreme project started...
Some characteristics of the radiator F2 Extreme:
That radiator is made with 3 arrays of flat tubes opposed and 12 layers of laminate pure copper for each inch of height,
it has in the total of 54 flat tubes divided and opposed in 3 arrays
it works in an only fluid passage, he has TWO entrance of 1\2 in the superior camera and TWO exit of 1\2 in the inferior camera
the entrance has a special camera that feeds of fluid in a homogeneous way all the flats tubes .
all weld they are them done with 57% of silver and all the connections are re-worked for over diameter and soft angles of entrance and exit
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/8.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/6.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/4.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/23.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/22.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/14.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/16.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/12.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/11.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/10.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/fotos/f2/9.jpg
CPU: xp1700+
Stepping: 0310
Cooling:Watercooler F2 Extreme ( no petier , chiller or vapos)
Voltage: 2.1v
Motherboard:abit nf7-2 rev 2.0 Bios 1.3
System Memory: oczel3200 dual channel
Overclock: 2744mhz
Watercooler Setup
Pump : Quietone 1100 gph
Radiator : F2 Extreme
Block: LRWW
OBS : nf7-s bio1.4
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/1.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/2.jpg
OBS : nf7-s bio1.3
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/a.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/b.jpg
Extreme oc in wc sistem
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/3.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/4.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/5.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/6.jpg
http://www.watercooler.com.br/xp/7.jpg
Too Expensive, and a 1100GPU Pump? WTF?
He seemed to be posting mostly from work, maybe we'll hear from him tomorrow?
It is nice and shiny, much prettier than my raw wood boxes for my radiator housing.
The other thing to notice is how much flow he is using!
An 1100 GPH pump flowing through a whitewater block? WTF???? He is probably getting tremendous flow pressures and many many cycles per minute. Many more than the normal Joe, that is for sure. Flow is a very significant factor for good cooling.
He is using a pump that has a flow rating three to four times that of the average pumps I see out there, which are usually rated between 200, maybe 300 GPH? You guys going to out a buy a two-hundred dollar pump for your $250.00 radiator to get the same results?
Not me. And he is using argueably the best waterblock out there to post his results with (I have one too, now that is an investment worth making.) Hmmmm....
You don't think that they would deliberately use a massive pump like that on the best block available to skew the results now, would you? I get a very bad feeling when people do that to me...
Otherwise, it could be an indicator that they know little or nothing about the water cooling market IMO, at least in the USA. Regardless of how many years he has been developing product. 1100GPH?!? Really?
For $250.00 one could fairly easily get a 5300 BTU Window air conditioner at Home Depot ($99.00) and convert it into a chiller, and I don't care how well the "F2" dissipates heat, your temps would never reach below ambient with that thing whereas you could dial in a chiller to give you 10 below room temperature to negative10C or better! Or you could just funnel an AC's air past your current radiator and beat that performance he posted, even with your current pump little 'ole 300GPH pump.
So if performance is really a #1 factor….put a swifty pelt cooler on your cpu, or convert an AC. That is if you have already gotten the best chip, the best mobo, the best memory, etc…. Or, get an 1100GPH pump.
He could market it in the US, but for $250.00 it would flop IMO. $99.00 would sell probably.
And a final thought....if you think the performance in overclocking is going to improve SIGNIFICANTLY ($250.00 worth of significance?) by a five to ten degree difference in your water temp., well, that has not been my experience.
I usually welcome any watercooling product to the fray, but don't get ripped off. (An 1100GPH Pump, Really?!? I still can't believe it!)
I could put Porsche engine in a VW Beetle and say "my Beetle is the best there is", but unless you buy an engine half the cost of the car for your beetle too, you would be very disappointed comparing it to mine.
Re: Too Expensive, and a 1100GPU Pump? WTF?
Quote:
Originally posted by zippyc
He seemed to be posting mostly from work, maybe we'll hear from him tomorrow?
It is nice and shiny, much prettier than my raw wood boxes for my radiator housing.
The other thing to notice is how much flow he is using!
An 1100 GPH pump flowing through a whitewater block? WTF???? He is probably getting tremendous flow pressures and many many cycles per minute. Many more than the normal Joe, that is for sure. Flow is a very significant factor for good cooling.
He is using a pump that has a flow rating three to four times that of the average pumps I see out there, which are usually rated between 200, maybe 300 GPH? You guys going to out a buy a two-hundred dollar pump for your $250.00 radiator to get the same results?
Not me. And he is using argueably the best waterblock out there to post his results with (I have one too, now that is an investment worth making.) Hmmmm....
You don't think that they would deliberately use a massive pump like that on the best block available to skew the results now, would you? I get a very bad feeling when people do that to me...
Otherwise, it could be an indicator that they know little or nothing about the water cooling market IMO, at least in the USA. Regardless of how many years he has been developing product. 1100GPH?!? Really?
For $250.00 one could fairly easily get a 5300 BTU Window air conditioner at Home Depot ($99.00) and convert it into a chiller, and I don't care how well the "F2" dissipates heat, your temps would never reach below ambient with that thing whereas you could dial in a chiller to give you 10 below room temperature to negative10C or better! Or you could just funnel an AC's air past your current radiator and beat that performance he posted, even with your current pump little 'ole 300GPH pump.
So if performance is really a #1 factor….put a swifty pelt cooler on your cpu, or convert an AC. That is if you have already gotten the best chip, the best mobo, the best memory, etc…. Or, get an 1100GPH pump.
He could market it in the US, but for $250.00 it would flop IMO. $99.00 would sell probably.
And a final thought....if you think the performance in overclocking is going to improve SIGNIFICANTLY ($250.00 worth of significance?) by a five to ten degree difference in your water temp., well, that has not been my experience.
I usually welcome any watercooling product to the fray, but don't get ripped off. (An 1100GPH Pump, Really?!? I still can't believe it!)
I could put Porsche engine in a VW Beetle and say "my Beetle is the best there is", but unless you buy an engine half the cost of the car for your beetle too, you would be very disappointed comparing it to mine.
Of course I´m using a good pump and water block, but did you read the title (extreme watercooling)? That´s what the F2 stands for... I don´t want no one to buy this radiator, which costs around US$ 130 – 250, and use it with a 20 US$ 300 GPH pump...
Also, you don´t need a Quietone pump. A Mag 700 should work fine, although it will put more heat... Anyway that should not matter, since the F2 rad don´t even feel it, given its dissipation capacity. The outcome might be more 1 C in a 2700mhz 2.1 V, mainly because of the flow decrease.
I really didn´t like the way you used to show my results. You asked if there would be any gain by using regular pumps... Yes there would, but there´s no sense in buying a US$ 130 – 250 rad and using it with a US$ 20 pump or a Maze 3 or 4.
If you thing that there isn´t any gain difference for this system with minus 10 C and reduced deltas, I will start to question how much do you actually know about OC
One of the main reasons to achieve such good results is because of the low system temperatures and the restricted delta. This is due to these factors available in my rad: A radiator that is capable of maintaining the liquid in my cooling system below 1 C above the ambient temperature, and is 3 times less flow restrictive than any other rad I have ever tested, a waterblock capable of removing the heat generated without saturating, heating its mass, and the high flow generated by the pump and rad I´ve picked. Of course its a whole.
If you watch with care, most systems, like chillers and prommies, have a huge difference between how much Mhz they can achieve versus how many Mhz they can actually work. This is due to the high deltas that these systems generate, since, unfortunately, most people that uses a chiller think that they will only put –40 C water in the waterblock, without paying attention to the pump or the waterblock they are using
With Prometeias is the same, if they use too little gas the temperature is constant and high, and if they use too much gas the temperature is low and with a very high delta. The people that thinks that with a vapo or chiller will be able to work with higher mhz than with my watercooling system are completely mistaken... Maybe in a Tropical country like mine
It would be interesting if you look in Futuremark the 9800 results for overclock. You will see my results among the top 30, most of which are using prommies and chillers, and compare how much mhz their CPUs can manage while running a 3dmark. You will also see that they won´t go much further of what I can achieve, although there are some prommies with propane that reaches excellent results with well dosed loads... But these are extremely scarce.
Then again, if I want to reach 4 Ghz in order to get some screens, I could do it using Dry Ice. I don´t need a phase-change or a chiller for it, despite having both. And not these chillers or Prommies Mach II, but some real extreme stuff.
I am sorry, but I choose to lay down my vapo and chiller, and being able to change my mobo every week. The 100-150 more mhz are not worth the convenience that I have of being able to change my mobo in 5 mins.
thanks
