Lets Get Extreme! PhysX watercooling with Pics !

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07-20-2007, 08:19 AM
jayhall0315

3 Attachment(s)

Lets Get Extreme! PhysX watercooling with Pics !

Well, I suck at posting photos evidently and I've got a lot to do this weekend but in preparation for some more Showdown at High Noon articles coming out next week, I thought you guys might like a few shots of my attempts to watercool and even overclock a PhysX card (just dont let Ageia know that I reverse engineered their drivers).

The top photo shows the BFG PhysX card with a custom drilled 8800 mounting bracket for use with the MCW60 block, and the bottom pic is obviously, this suckka getting put to the test. We'll see what she is capable of Captain, when I get around to punching out the Showdown Part III or IV article next week.

Have a good weekend,
Jay

If you are really extreme, you never let informed facts or the scientific method hold you back from your journey to the wrong answer
07-20-2007, 08:26 AM
sick_g4m3r

lol thats cool!
07-20-2007, 10:31 AM
IanY

That's great! Unfortunately, the silly card that I bought is good only for GRAW and even then it causes stutter. Pity the card was never really useful.
07-20-2007, 10:50 AM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanY

That's great! Unfortunately, the silly card that I bought is good only for GRAW and even then it causes stutter. Pity the card was never really useful.

Yeah, it can cause stutter. Some of that has been corrected with the newer drivers and some of that is the way in which the API offloads information. Just like there are individuals out there who reverse engineer the ATI or Nvidia packages for more speed/overclocking, I would do the same but unfortunately, I would be scared to release my driver package for legal reasons.
This card really has alot of potential, but it is hard to persuade developers to learn a new API (especially with all the attention that it takes to write DirectX 10) and when everyone can slough off this to,"well, we wont need that since we will just write code that better optimizes dual and quad core; those will be our savior".

Time will tell, but for now, we are at Xtreme Systems, so might as well go extreme and put this fart simulator/cloth renderer/fluid juicer to the test. Oh, and watercool it, while we are at it !!!!!!!!! Yeah.

Jay
07-20-2007, 11:03 AM
IanY

Is it hard to get the holes aligned for the G80 bracket? I would like to try to water cool that as well :)
07-20-2007, 11:12 AM
mjassbong

Now that's cool and Xtreme. Now am inspired to watercool my SCSI controller :D It does run really really hot.
07-20-2007, 11:17 AM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanY

Is it hard to get the holes aligned for the G80 bracket? I would like to try to water cool that as well :)

Hey Ian,
Just use the old painter's/carpenter's trick: masking tape.

1 Remove the crappy and loud 40 mm fan and airsink (CPOS).
2 Clean the PPU with acetone (gently) and then alcohol
3 Buy the MCW 60 with the 8800 mounting plate. Take the plate out and align it so that the PPU is exactly in the center of the big square hole interior of the 8800 mounting plate.
4 Now gently, without bumping the mounting plate, apply masking tape to the top and bottom of it and then roll down onto the card (so the mounting plate cannot move and is now taped to the card).
5 Turn over the card, take out a Sharpie marker, look to where the two mounting holes are and place your sharpie there (your Sharpie will now be touching the back side of the mounting plate thru the card) and mark them.
6 Turn the card back over, remove the masking tape and pick up the 8800 mounting plate and turn it over. You will now see the two black marks you made with your sharpie.
7 Get a powerful drill with a sharp carbide bit and get to work.
8 Apply AS5 to the PPU and mount like a normal waterblock (dont need much tightening here, the PPU only puts out maybe 40 watts and has no IHS, so be careful).

Turns out great,
Jay
07-20-2007, 11:53 AM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjassbong

Now that's cool and Xtreme. Now am inspired to watercool my SCSI controller :D It does run really really hot.

Mjassbong,
You already have the damned coolest rig on the planet. No need to show up us mere mortals any more !!!!!!!!!!

Jay
07-20-2007, 12:02 PM
IanY

Thanks Jay.. I've got nothing to lose here.. the PPU is unused anyway lol
07-20-2007, 12:02 PM
IanY

mjassbong,

Ahh.. but you need to step up to serial attached scsi first lol
07-20-2007, 01:25 PM
mjassbong

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayhall0315

Mjassbong,
You already have the damned coolest rig on the planet. No need to show up us mere mortals any more !!!!!!!!!!

Jay

Well you said it yourself, "...we are at Xtreme Systems, so might as well go extreme" :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanY

mjassbong,

Ahh.. but you need to step up to serial attached scsi first lol

IanY, that would be a giant leap I can't make. My wallet wouldn't allow it.

While on the subject of PhysX, any one of you trying out GRAW2?
07-20-2007, 03:52 PM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjassbong

Well you said it yourself, "...we are at Xtreme Systems, so might as well go extreme" :D

IanY, that would be a giant leap I can't make. My wallet wouldn't allow it.

While on the subject of PhysX, any one of you trying out GRAW2?

Yeah, Mjass,
I guess you could upgrade to SA SCSI or you could be the only person on the Earth to run PhysX SLI (joking). It is the only thing that could better your rig from the point it is at now (lol).

Jay
07-20-2007, 08:14 PM
IanY

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjassbong

Well you said it yourself, "...we are at Xtreme Systems, so might as well go extreme" :D

IanY, that would be a giant leap I can't make. My wallet wouldn't allow it.

While on the subject of PhysX, any one of you trying out GRAW2?

Sorry I'm so out of it... there's a GRAW 2 out ? Probably with an even steeper playing curve lol Its so darn difficult !
07-20-2007, 08:32 PM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanY

Sorry I'm so out of it... there's a GRAW 2 out ? Probably with an even steeper playing curve lol Its so darn difficult !

Ian,
Yeah, GRAW 2 is out and it does make better use of the PhysX API than the original and is about the same difficulty. I do not have that much time in on the game yet due to lab responsibilities, but I am working my way to this island in the game that supposedly in entirely for players with a PhysX card. So, we shall see.
It does use the PhysX better than the original, but not by leaps and bounds (although, the explosions are the best of ANY game I have played and that is due to the PhysX card).

Jay
07-20-2007, 08:34 PM
Agent11

..Is it possible to overclock a ppu?
07-20-2007, 09:09 PM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agent11

..Is it possible to overclock a ppu?

Yes, it is possible but I had to reverse engineer their drivers to do it. I will show you pictures of the results but will not release my code (because that is probably not legal anyway - hey, what I do with my PPU is my business, but if I enable others to do something, then I could be in hot water).
One verification of this is the fps should show a difference in Cellfactor Revolution or the PhysX benchmark.
The PPU is not that powerful though (at least in a fps context) and so the results are about what you would expect for a mid-range GPU during overclocking in a DirectX 9 environment.

Jay
07-24-2007, 10:51 PM
jayhall0315

Some of you were asking about the more recent games and PhysX. Well, I will go over this later in some detail later, but for now, someone has already taken many of the words out of my mouth

http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2007/07..._ageia_physx/1

Until, I get around to showing you the card overclocked, maybe this will help. It also gives details on the new GRAW2 effects with PhysX (and no, I do not work for Ageia)

Jay
07-24-2007, 11:09 PM
ranker

God of all that is Gaming, also known as John Carmack, just laid the smack down on the Aegia cards saying they're not worthwhile to support as Nvidia/ATI will eventually include them in the future as a co-processor.

Aegia's only hope right now is to set themselves as a "standard" and pray for a royalty scheme. They were definitely interesting when first released, but I'm glad I waited. It just doesn't seem to have the support we all hoped for.
07-25-2007, 10:12 AM
jayhall0315

The Perils of Multithreading

While I am no John Carmack, I do do multithreaded coding at my lab for the BMI interface and there are some good points to be made:

Dan from Ageia, said this:
“When it comes to the CPU side, dual-core, quad-core, whatever then the main problem is threading. How are you ever going to thread the two things together? It’s all about timing, when the physic effect hits then how is the second core going to time it and cooperate? At the moment, there’s not a single game that supports multi-threading even at a basic level. I reckon we’re years out with that and it’s already been about for two years. The games that are being developed now only use it a bit, for A.I. and so on where they don’t need extreme threading.”

While, I do not entirely agree with Dan, this idea that you can just pull out a Harry Potter magic spell and poof !, have full multithreaded physics running off your GPU or quad core CPU is bunk. Yes, it is possible, but once again, at a very large investment in coding and resources that game and hardware companies are just not going to devote to the matter at this time. That leaves Ageia. Yes, the effects are not as crucial to gameplay as many had hoped for, but it is just like the early 3D accelerators back in the 1990s. You dont master a new paradigm in only six months (Hell, Nturd still has bugs with getting SLI to work).
What would be really cool is if Nturd would sign a licensing agreement with Ageia (like Auzentech did with Creative) and then when the Nturd 9900 cards come out in November, the PPU could lay right beside the GPU on the same board.
Oh well, one can dream.

Jay

(and no, I do not work for Ageia, I just think the PhysX has merit)
07-25-2007, 10:22 AM
`danny

That would be ideal but the GTXs would be probably atleast $800
07-25-2007, 11:02 AM
ranker

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayhall0315

While I am no John Carmack, I do do multithreaded coding at my lab for the BMI interface and there are some good points to be made:

Dan from Ageia, said this:
“When it comes to the CPU side, dual-core, quad-core, whatever then the main problem is threading. How are you ever going to thread the two things together? It’s all about timing, when the physic effect hits then how is the second core going to time it and cooperate? At the moment, there’s not a single game that supports multi-threading even at a basic level. I reckon we’re years out with that and it’s already been about for two years. The games that are being developed now only use it a bit, for A.I. and so on where they don’t need extreme threading.”

While, I do not entirely agree with Dan, this idea that you can just pull out a Harry Potter magic spell and poof !, have full multithreaded physics running off your GPU or quad core CPU is bunk. Yes, it is possible, but once again, at a very large investment in coding and resources that game and hardware companies are just not going to devote to the matter at this time. That leaves Ageia. Yes, the effects are not as crucial to gameplay as many had hoped for, but it is just like the early 3D accelerators back in the 1990s. You dont master a new paradigm in only six months (Hell, Nturd still has bugs with getting SLI to work).
What would be really cool is if Nturd would sign a licensing agreement with Ageia (like Auzentech did with Creative) and then when the Nturd 9900 cards come out in November, the PPU could lay right beside the GPU on the same board.
Oh well, one can dream.

Jay

(and no, I do not work for Ageia, I just think the PhysX has merit)

I completely agree with regards to multithreaded coding. I was a computer science major myself and know the difficulties involved. Basically what you're dreaming is what John Carmack is conveying. As a stand alone card, it's not worthwhile to support. However, as a co-processor with an established DX incorporation, it can see life. He believes Nvidia and ATI will eventually come up with a solution that incorporates it on the graphics card itself. Now whether the chip itself is produced by Ageia remains to be seen and will depend on how well Ageia establishes itself within the market.
07-26-2007, 07:23 AM
jayhall0315

I think another item that most naysayers of Ageia forget about is the API. Havok physics was really the only game in town until Ageia came along with the PhysX. Making the PPU itself, is really something that any of the large chip companies CAN do (Intel, Nvidia, ATI,....) without too much effort. The PPU is not THAT specialized and does not really represent any ground breaking technologies on its own. It is the combination of that chip (PPU) along with the environmental PhysX API that can provide the power, provided programmers take the time to learn it.
I dont know what the hell the folks at Ageia and Havok call it, but I classify game physics into two areas, visual physics and environmental physics. An example of Visual physics is the rag-doll animation that simulate bodies going down after they take too much lead to the head, where as environmental physics is much rarer, such as this supposed level in GRAW2 where you can blow up a sniping stand to further other objects. From what I have seen, only a few larger developers like Crytek, Valve, Epic etc have successfully implemented software or hardware accelerated physics into their games. Even the guys at Ageia, in my opinion, have not fully optimized their own product! I could be wrong, but I think we are sorta at that stage that is similar to the 1990s with the early Voodoo graphics accelerators. It just so happens that Ageia is trying to create an entirely new niche, and that is always hard going.

Jay
07-26-2007, 08:31 AM
elfy

haha i love this, and the idea of w/cing a scsi card. "hmmm i was bored so i put a waterblock on my 18w DDC" ;)
07-26-2007, 08:38 AM
jayhall0315

Hey Elfy,
Yeah, when I started out watercooling, all I did was the CPU and GPU. But then, I got tired of hearing the small crappy 40 mm fans which spin at 5000+ rpms on the Northbridge or Southbridge and decided those had to go as well. When I got this PhysX card as a gift at Christmas it came with a cheap POS 40 mm fan as well, and well, you know, I am a watercooler, so had to remedy that situation as well.

Guess that makes me a nut,
Jay

BTW Elfy, who is the lady in your Avatar. Is that Sophie Marceau (smoking hot!) ?
07-26-2007, 08:47 AM
elfy

lol i know what you mean, i have most of the bits in my case(s) w/c, hence the sig :)

dunno who the avater is, i knicked it from another forum (shhh)

now i've thought about it would be interesting to w/c the pumps :)
07-26-2007, 09:36 AM
jayhall0315

3 Attachment(s)

No need for watercooled PSUs! Just do this!

By the way, if you want massive power at 20 dBa. Here is how to do it:

1 - Buy the Thermaltake 1200 Toughpower (which absolutely no one would ever need but does include only one fairly quiet 140 mm YL fan).
2 - Carefully crack the unit open.
3 - Remove the stock fan and replace it with this: http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=20771
4 - Now undervolt the fan to 7 volts before it reaches the PCB
5 - Remove the crap plastic shorting strips, cut them and then glue two patches to the side to prevent shorts (if not removed, your PSU will whine over 700 ~ 800 watts load)
5 - Rescrew the fan to the top and reinstall carefully. While your at it, put some heatshrink on the wires coming out of the Toughpower.
6 - Now listen to that monster go at only 17 ~ 20 dBa! (of course your exhaust temps will now run 49 deg C instead of 44 at 350 watts load, but still not bad)

Caveat: I would only do this mod though if you plan on drawing 700 watts or less from the Toughpower. If your really are in that 0.1% of people that has Quad SLI, 10 RAID 0 arrays and five water loops, just leave in the stock fan. It is not that loud, ~30 dBa.

Jay

Pic #1 - This is the replacement D14 SM-12 YL fan
Pic #2 - The replacement fan beside the TT Toughpower 1200 watt PSU
Pic #3 - The reinstallation is almost finished (You will not hear this baby now unless you put your ears three inches away)
07-26-2007, 01:54 PM
jayhall0315

Hey guys,
Not trying to turn this into a PhysX forum but some of you were asking about how it might pan out down the road. Take a read here: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3048

Fairly good article with some info on Havok FX and GPGPU.

Enjoy,
Jay
07-26-2007, 02:50 PM
Jedda

Death to 40mm fans.
Get them before they get you. They're scheming to fry your gpu.

Jay,
If you're getting an order from PerfPC, get them to throw in some of the black three pin fan plugs they sell from AC Ryan.
Finishes off your black sleeving nicely.
07-26-2007, 03:09 PM
jayhall0315

Agreed! Death to all 40 mm fans.

Yeah, when I first started overclocking about six/seven years ago, I always tried for high speed and low temps and damn the noise. And now, well, I have a fiancee, and she would like to have a baby some day. And it's hard to practice for projects like that if you have a damn whining sound in your head during such times.

Okay, seriously, my rig is primarily watercooled for absolute quiet and I never leave a 40 mm fan anywhere if I can help it. Once I got the Q6600, I had it up to 3.380 for about an hour or two and then I dialed it back down to 3.2, where it now comfortably rests. It runs a little bit high at 44 deg C, but then my rig is usually running about 20 ~ 23 dBa when the HDs dont seek too much.

Jay
07-26-2007, 03:33 PM
Jedda

40mm packing up and frying gpu cost me three vid cards last year. I had to buy replacements in each case to keep the box running over the weeks involved in warranty claims.
Now they're thousand dollar cards, WC is cheap insurance against 40 mm attack, imho. Add in a 680i and it's a no-brainer.
07-26-2007, 05:27 PM
Monkeywoman

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayhall0315

(just dont let Ageia know that I reverse engineered their drivers).

what do u mean by "reverse engineering" their drivers?
07-26-2007, 06:59 PM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkeywoman

what do u mean by "reverse engineering" their drivers?

Hey Monkeywoman (Great name by the way),
All software properties of Ageia are protected by copyright law and in the US you can patent software as well as hardware. While having no special desire for James Bond type secrecy, I can say that it would not be a good idea for me to go into details about to how reverse engineer their drivers (not trying to blow you off, I just dont want to be sued). If you are an adequate programmer or engineer and are decent at coding, their SDK is available for free at their website and reveals much about how the PhysX card works. There are also such things as bus analyzers, interactive disassemblers and decompilers that you may want to check out if you have similar interests.

Jay
07-26-2007, 08:22 PM
Eightballrj

ROFL... thats great!! Have you noticed any performance increase?? If you said this already I guess I can't read, lol.
07-26-2007, 08:52 PM
jayhall0315

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eightballrj

ROFL... thats great!! Have you noticed any performance increase?? If you said this already I guess I can't read, lol.

Yes, if you overclock the PPU like a normal processing unit, it will go about 12% higher and if you make adjustments to the drivers you can get about 40% more performance in certain situations. What this translates into for the average GRAW player is that instead of a slight 3-7 FPS slowdown when using the PhysX card (like when throwing a grenade under a car), you actually get just about zero FPS loss. And in certain situations where the API is more closely related to the frame rate, you obviously have more FPS (like Cellfactor).