Does anybody know when the North American retailers are going to get some of these back in stock? I'm pretty sure they've all had OOS markings for a couple of months now...
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Does anybody know when the North American retailers are going to get some of these back in stock? I'm pretty sure they've all had OOS markings for a couple of months now...
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...&filter_id=114
Looks like the .3 is the only model oos at Performance-pcs.
EDIT: Dang, Agent beat me to it. :rofl:
Performance PC's has the 120.1 and the 120.2 in stock. But other than that, I feel ya on the wide spread out of stock reports.
Just get a swiftech rad. 1/3rd the price 2.9999/3 the performance.
MCR320 FTWQuote:
Originally Posted by afireinside
i got my pa120.3 last week before dangerden sold out :)
how does the 120.1 compare to the pa160? Which is better?
With twice as much volume. :down:Quote:
Originally Posted by afireinside
I would assume the 120 is exactly 3/4 as good as the 160.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
I have found the 160 actually compares vary favorably with the PA 120.2 . The PA120.1 doesn't stand up to the 160 at all.
Graph hereQuote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
PA120.1 is half as good as a PA120.2
At 1.5gpm, and a Panaflo H at 7v (which typically offers around 10% better than a Yate-Loon at 12v in my testing)
PA120.2 = ~0.036C/W
MCR220 = ~0.038C/W
PA160,1 = ~0.055C/W
PA120.1 = ~0.072C/W (estimated)
"Worth" depends on the heat-load. At 100W, PA120.2 is ~0.2C better than MCR2220. At 250W heat-load (CPU + GPU), PA120.2 is ~0.5C better.
Comparing PA160.1 to PA120.2. At 100W, PA120.2 is ~1.9C better than PA160.1 At 250W heat-load, PA120.2 is ~4.7C better than PA160.1.
Comparing PA120.1 to PA160.1. At 100W, PA160.1 is ~1.7C better than PA120.1 At 250W heat-load, PA160.1 is ~4.2C better than PA120.1. Then again, not usually best to run a single 120.1 with 250W of heat load.
i.e. A PA160.1 sits about exactly mid-way between a PA120.1 and PA120.2.
Which one getz u more gerlz?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Sshhhh. We're geeks here. Gerlz don't exist, except online, and even then it's questionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthBeavis
You want gerlz? Get a radiator from what's in my avatar, with the rest of the bike attached.
From what I've heard, All stores have been having a hard time getting Thermochills lately. No idea why.
What is this "gerl" you speak of? Is it a game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Anyways... I did some more looking, it seems as if the top half of Thermochill's UK retailer list has the 120.3, nobody else seems to have it.
Thanks, I'm putting together a new rig. I already have a PA120.2, but I'm thinking of using a separate loop & rad for the cpu when I go quad core.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
PA120.2 for 8800's SLI & northbridge & PA160 for the Quad is what I'm thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nemesis
Then Cathar answered your question right here...
"Then again, not usually best to run a single 120.1 with 250W of heat load."
So for a quad you will want a PA160 at least!
Indeed, now the hard part will be finding one.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by dnottis
Can I sig this? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Cathar I know you have a bike racing background . Mine is in auto racing . I spent 4 months in hospital with the hurtin .
I have a question for ya . I really like the PA 160's . Pound for pound I consider them the world champs.
In racing cars we use resticters in 700hp+ engines to cool them without the resticters they over heat.
I have found On a single 160 that a lot of flow threw them isn't as good as a metered flow it seems that about 3.2 gpm is the most efficient for single application . But if you use 2 or more in series than higher flow is required.
So I have 2 questions do you restict the flow on your racing bike.
Have you tried 160's in series and what were your results.
By the way a read the [H] forums thread on tube sizing . I am vary sorry TN gave you such a hard time . I like TN have always believed in small tube sizes. The differances between us tho is I understand flow much better than TN . TN has in the past made some good points and I agreed depending on the blocks used. Some of the German blocks back than did infact work very well with small tubes.
I have also always from day one promoted the ideal of using flow control rather than a single loop if more than 1 block is used. I believe if your going to cool with liquid cool everthing and this is were I have run into problems. Biggest problem is the pumps . Getting a pump that flows 8-10gpm thats also quiet is hard and does not dump to much heat in the system. As you well know. With your background I know that you understand the problems I have gone threw trying to get the perfect combinations required to accomplish my goals. I had to build a box to mount the dual pump system in and suspended them and use sound absorbing material inside the box. with air ducting for a little flow over the motors.
With your experiance could you tell me what pumps you would use to achieve 8-10gpm flow that are 12v or 24v . You already know the 3 pumps I am working with a little insight from you would be vary helpful.
I'd call myself a track-day junkie, rather than an actual bike racer. I get around a track certainly fast-enough to go racing if I wanted to, but racing is an expensive "hobby", as I'm sure you're aware. Even half the guys who fill the grid at the national superbike level here in Australia are basically paying their own way. It is suggested that this is what makes Australians so successful at bike racing in the international scene, because we're all so hungry, and many riders are having to compete with inferior machinery in order to prove themselves against the big boys. I digress though.
So yeah, while my bike is little more than a race-bike with lights, it's still stock in terms of the radiator, and I've never had a problem with it overheating. The engine is probably at around 160-165hp at the crank though (1000cc engine), whereas the really tweaked 1000cc race bikes are up around 210hp at the crank, and the international superbikes up around 220hp at the crank.
I've often heard/read about the restrictors thing in high-powered engines, and to be honest I couldn't answer as to why that would be the case. It might even be a function of the water pump? If the pump impeller is spinning too quickly, cavitation may be occurring when there's inadequate back-pressure, resulting in a reduced flow-rate, and adding in some restriction may be the solution to this.
I'd seriously like to stick a flow-rate sensor onto some of these car-engines where it is reported that unrestricted flows leads to overheating. I personally think that something else is occurring, and as above, I think it'd be related to how the pump is behaving.
Back to the world of PC radiators, and the PA160.1.
When you report 3.2gpm, how are you metering the flow? You are aware that pump heat dump is a significant factor at higher flow rates. Up to a certain point extra flow through a radiator does nothing to increase performance, and indeed performance will even plateau. At even higher flow rates the pump will dump even more heat into the system (even if using a restrictor this happens), and this eventually overcomes the tiny performance improvement you got from those higher flow rates. It's not that the radiators start performing worse, it's cos the pump is dumping more heat with the higher flow rate than the benefit you get from the higher flow rate.
When you say you can achieve higher flow rates with multiple radiators, that actually backs up my assumption above. With more radiators, they can deal with the extra pump heat better, and so you can reach even higher flow rates before pump heat starts to overcome the benefits again. Throw on a third or fourth radiator, and the limit will be even higher again.
Reference this thread for a detailed discussion on this effect.
Don't worry about TN. I can handle myself just fine. I think she, and others, get a little overly defensive about their choice and accuse me of criticising their choice when really I've done no such thing. I support their choice if it suits their needs, but I sit in the scientific middle of the whole debate and approach it with a fairly impassionate eye towards what are the real impacts of what's going on, and leave everyone else to squabble over what's important to them. Some just make the mistake of thinking that I have a "side", when really I don't. I've been attacked by both high-flow and low-flow afficiandos in the past, because they don't realise that I really don't have a side, and so both camps like to paint me as suits their prejudice.
As for 12v or 24v pumps in the 8-10gpm mark, your choices are very limited. Best to first identify how much back-pressure we're expecting to operate against at that level, and then we can construct a solution for the problem. It is unlikely that there's a single pump that will do what you want, but a pair of pumps, such as 2 x Iwaki RD30's in parallel would get you pretty close. I'm not really aware of any stronger DC pumps than the RD30's that are easily available to the general consumer.
Good thing you don't have to worry about the likes of her here anymore. I'm surprised you manage to keep your composure as well as you do with the inane crap/invective thrown your way. It's not good enough that you settled the peace between the tubing size, but they feel as if you didn't go far enough, hoping for a proclamation from you of "Low flow is the only way to go!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
Why two RD-30's in parallel rather than series? I always figured series was the way to go.Quote:
As for 12v or 24v pumps in the 8-10gpm mark, your choices are very limited. Best to first identify how much back-pressure we're expecting to operate against at that level, and then we can construct a solution for the problem. It is unlikely that there's a single pump that will do what you want, but a pair of pumps, such as 2 x Iwaki RD30's in parallel would get you pretty close. I'm not really aware of any stronger DC pumps than the RD30's that are easily available to the general consumer.
A single RD-30 @ 24v can only deliver ~5.3gpm peak. He wants 8-10gpm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranker
If he ran two in parallel at ~26v, he'd likely achieve his goal. It does depend on the flow resistance though.
ncix.com has 120.2 and 120.3 in stock.
This certainly won't last! Especially if you are in Canada, you won't find these anywhere else up here (NCIX, DirectCanada, and NXSource all use the same warehouse just so you all know)Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer265
Wouldn't running two of them at 26v negate any sort of gains with the flow rate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathar
I was under the impression from your tests that anything past 18V would be more harm then good.
I don't know what our good friend Turtle1 has up his sleeve. He just asked me "What could I use to do this?", and I answered.Quote:
Originally Posted by ranker
What he seems to be attempting is well beyond the norm of regular PC water-cooling systems, so I'm not making any assumptions at all as to what's going to work out best for him.
Given enough radiator capacity, the heat dump penalty of 2 x RD30's @ 26v can be overcome, but we're likely talking about needing 8 x PA160.1 to do that, or maybe 4 x PA120.3's, to achieve a balance point. Maybe that's what he's got? Who knows?
All I know is that from what little he described of his system so far, that it's not your usual PC water-cooling setup by a long shot, and a lot of what hes delving into doesn't apply to the standard PC water-cooler. While it's not a different set of rules, the limits are different.
First on the subject of the high HP racing engines. We don't run our pumps at the same ratio as a street engine . Mine is reduced to to 50% of what stock is so it runs at about 4,250 RPM . We also use speicial pumps that prevent cavataion both water and oil pumps. So thats really not part of the equation with the use of restrictors.
I have used for pumps so far the rd20 /rd30 and the alphacool ap1510.
your correct as is normally the case that the RD30 in paralell will get me to 10.6 gpm but 2 of these dump a lot of heat into the system and are noisy as hell. 2 rd20 are good for 8gpm. but still to loud for me than I have to convert 12v to 24v on the RD20/30 which is ok.
Right now the Alphcool AP1510 is what I am happiest with . because of the v.control unit . It pushes around 1500Lph which is right at 8gpm . which will in fact do the job . But I really would like about 10gpm and cut v back so as to have a little overhead. the 1510 has excellant head.
I did have to resize the 160 for 3/4 inlets and outlets to maintain good flow however. Which is OK . I am ripping off that design because we can make them cheaper than I can buy them . When I can find them . Than we also make them showy looking .
I won't be reselling these as I wouldn't feel right about riping off someone elses design. They will just be used in our gamers.
Besides with the added work of making them show piecies I couldn't compete price wise.
Now off topic . I laughed pretty hard on the story you told about the nurse ar [H] . I have a good one also.
When I got injured in 82. broken left shoulder completely dislocation of the left knee (only thing holding my leg on was some skin )ruptured L4 and L5 in lower back and one hell of a headache. I had this Candy stripper bring my food . Well she would come in lay down my tray and leave . Here I am with only one usable arm/hand . Well I didn't eat much first 3 days anyway.
The 4th day she brought it in and was heading out the door and my tray hit the door befor she got out. Dam the doctors were coming in to see me at that same time. He yells at what the hell is going on . I yell back in not so good wording . LOOK AT MY---- bread and My GOD --- milk . Bread isn't buttered and milk isn't opened. They went out in the hall there was some yelling . Doc came back in and said please except our apologies she no longer works here.
On the 1510 . 1 pump pushes 1500lph= just under 4gpm. 2 in parallel is just under 8gpm.
Because of the very high flow Flow control unit were using . I have found that 4 160's modded to 3/4 inlet outlet. really doesn't restict the system much. Cathar knows better than anyone that the 160's have enormus flow capabilities use of 3/4 inlet outlet ID only expands that flow capability.
So 3 160's will cool the system and the 4 th one was added to take care of the pump heat dump with a little extra left for the 6(dual socket) or 5 cooling circuits.
Okay. If I were in charge of it myself, my brain would be working overtime to find the explanation, and I'd be sticking all sorts of diagnostic equipment on the cooling system to figure out what's going on. It's well established in physical theory that greater flow equals a higher reynolds number, equals a higher h (co-efficient of thermal convection). If that's not holding true in some specific scenario, then there's something else going on. I'd be curious to know what. Might even be some degenerate flow-regime scenario with too much flow, and when the flow transitions from laminar to turbulent in various cooling paths, things might start flowing differently. Where flow was being divided in the right proportion to various engine locations at lower flow, it might become imbalanced, increasing temperatures, and therefore metal expansion rates, which then causes increased frictional losses, which in turn generates dramatically more heat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle 1
There'd be some reason for it, but it's certainly not going to be the "simple" answer of more flow is bad. It's not. There'd be something else going wrong, maybe because the system wasn't originally engineered to handle laminar->turbulent flow transitions at super-high flow rates? Maybe because of something else altogether?
Ok, so you're also after quiet 8gpm operation?Quote:
I have used for pumps so far the rd20 /rd30 and the alphacool ap1510.
The Alphacool AP1510 is decent as you say. What's your current problem with it? Is it not suiting your needs?
Well the 1510's are ok but to achieve that flow rate I have to run them at 24v. I would like to have a little overhead. You know a small safty net.
I was just hoping you might know of a pump that I haven't heard of.
Its still a toss up between the rd20 and the 1510 . both compare about the same . Noise issue we pretty much took care of . With 6 circuits recieving 8gpm . is really cutting the flow per circuit.. Yes the nb/sb/ and regulators don't need that much flow I still would like 1gpm threw that circuit and the HD circuit. that leaves me with 1.5 gpm to the 2 gpu and 2 cpu circuits .
On the five circuit setup only 1 cpu circuit . were really happy with the results .
But our promised hardware from a certain company hasn't arrived yet. So I haven't really beenable to give the the 6 circuit system a valid test yet. I believe well be ok . But until I put a hard load on the 6 circuit system for 24 hours I just don't know yet. I am just trying to be prepared for the worse case .
Look, it's a long-shot, but it's the "big-brother" of the old Swiftech MCP600. Made by the same OEM manufacturer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle 1
It's the EW-72025-95 (aka K-72025-95).
Variable speed, 5.3gpm, 24VDC, 36' (~11.5mH2O head).
Don't know how loud it will be. I haven't tried it myself, but it's about the only other pump that I can think of that would suit your needs. Would need 2 in parallel.
The other possible pump, that'd do it all in one, would be the Panworld NH-40PX-D. 12vdc. 8gpm. ~4mH2O head.
Alternately, grab four of the Laing D5's, and hook them up in 2x2 format. i.e. A parallel pair of 2-pumps in series. That'd net you some serious flow & pressure, AND you could dial them into whatever speed you wanted.
My only concern is this. You're trying to pump 8gpm through the radiators at the moment. What's going to happen when you add some CPU water-blocks in there? Or are you running a separate radiator loop to a shared reservoir to the component cooling loop?
Seriously. I don't know what you're really trying to achieve, and without further info, I'm just taking stabs in the dark. If you want to run it by me properly, then take it to PM, and I'll keep it private, and you can share with me the full details of what you're doing, and I'll propose something. I really don't want to continue this game of me guessing what you want. No fun for me.
FrozenCPU has them!
I think Frozen usually does sales on holidays... but I'm not risking that two day wait when they only have six.
i purchased the 160 and 120.2 from Thermochill directly...
not too bad... DHL shipping and all but took only a couple of days more...
need to check my credit card bill to see how much it actually cost me tho... :D
Actual cathar you have really helped me alot already. Sometimes just setting a talking about something with someone you trust a light goes off. Your last post did that just for me . And I slapped self on head. I already linked you to the flowcontrol unit I am using. So when you said 8ghm might be a bit much for 4 rads which from what I already told you about 3.2gpm is what seems to be the best for 1 160 Since I am using 2 y blocks anyway.
There is no reason at all that I can't run 1 pump threw 2 160s . with the Y block after the rads. . Since I alread sold 3 gamers with 5 circuits. I can easily re plumb them . Running just 1 pump threw 2 160's cuts the restriction threw rads considerably and the heat dump should be smaller also. . I can see clearly now this will be much better than 4 160's in series . 2+2 rads inseries is much smarter and will prove to be more efficient .
Thanks so much for your imput and the links to those last 2 pumps. You have expanded my options and I believe solved my problem . AS always it turned out to be a simple solution.