Experiment Cu: vinegar, vinegar + salt, solvent

Just to see how copper reacts to these 3 WC component cleaning agents, I'm doing an experiment.

10:00 AM PST Feb 11, 2007
Each vial contains 4 copper wires and 1 copper strip.
1: vinegar
2: vinegar with some salt, shaked up
3: paint thinner (solvent, couldn't find any alcohol)
Room temperature: 20.0'C

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/1568/dsc01143zy0.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8337/dsc01146ad3.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4775/dsc01152dg8.jpg

10:30AM: so far nothing is going on in #1, tiny bubbles are forming on #2, and nothing #3. g2g work back at 6PM
5:00PM: It's been 6:30 hours, nothing is going on still. The bubbles on #2 are gone.
8:40PM: sample liquids drained so Cu are exposed to air, samples placed outside, overnight temp 2'C (can't stand the smell of vinegar and paint thinner lol)

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/560/dsc01153kh9.jpg

Day2 8:15AM: vial #2's liquid is slightly blue-ish, the other 2 still have nothing going on.

Interesting. Keep us updated.:)

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Originally Posted by Thrilla

tiny bubbles are forming on #2

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Sounds like corrosion already!

Hmm, what is that blue stuff at the bottom of each vile?

The blue stuff is the reflection of the marker, I use a lamp on my desk so the reflections are quite bright. Nothing is in the containers besides test liquid and copper.

Maybe it´s time to send mythbusters an email about this :p:

Could you do us a favor and allow the tubes readied access to the air.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem03505.htm
http://www.chem.umn.edu/outreach/Car...VinCopper.html

Since when we put the vinegar in the radiators it'll mix up with the air causing greater amounts of oxidation compared to the capped vials you have there. Since they are capped hardly any oxidation will occur hence your experiment has a fundamental flaw.

vinegar is acidic and will therefore be more corrosive and conductive aswell. its a good cleaner but dont leave it in the pipes.

Thanks for pointing that out Kurz! All samples moved outside though, they smell horrible!

Another thing you could implement is stirring every so often. Just to get oxygen into the vinegar.

Maybe once every 6 hours?

day 2: 10:00 AM
Results are in, see for yourselves. (btw the solvent vial was a little dirty to start with, it hasn't changed a bit.)
Left to right
solvent, vinegar+salt, vinegar
http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/383...1161vl5.th.jpg

The solvent is looking good

I like the pretty blue color. :D

Should of had a set of bets placed here...could of been fun

All bets from the start should have been placed on the vinegar with salt.

In all actuality the reason why the vinegar + salt is reacting is because vinegar unless in its pure acetic acid form is highly diluted. Thus all we have done is stick copper in salt water with a pinch of acid which will slightly accelerate the reaction of the copper but not much faster than salt water itself.

I wonder if Salt with Iodine and Salt without Iodine makes much of a difference.

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Originally Posted by npk

Maybe it´s time to send mythbusters an email about this :p:

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Actually, that might be a good idea. :eek:

Do you actually think corroding the copper means its a good cleaner??????

Iodine in of itself is a component of salts. Although Iodine is not as strong of reducing agent as chlorine or fluorine but still has the same properties.

As for corroding copper to clean, that is not a good idea as you are basically just adding aluminum to loop.

I am curious as to what 95% methanol or ethanol will do to clean the loops.

by" clean" do you mean remove built up contaminants such as coolant residue / dust / grease or whatever ?

why not buy some car radiator cleaner? i've had my car radiator "flushed" no idea what they used to do it.

my car a/c guy used to work as an engi. in the airforce...they were ordered to use creosote to flush the fuel lines in f1-11's :)

if you flush pipes with ethanol and let it dry it should evaporate very quickly; if it's anything like turps/meths/kerrosine. Would meths work?

clean white fluid that dissovles shyte in the pipes without causing corrosion....well whatever fluid you use to flush the pipes; it wont be there for long, so how is it going to corrode the pipes if it has all evaporated.?

water wetter i've heard is a good additive for cooling fluid.

distilled water with the ideal coolant...what is the ideal coolant? - a non corrosive fluid that doesnt build up residue in the pipes while increasing specific heat of the water.

the higher the concentration of contaminant (including coolants) the more likely it will form a residue on the pipe walls. i bet there is also an anti-corrosion additive (anti-oxidant?) at the auto shop too.

increasing acidity will increase the rate of all types of chemical reactions including corrosion.

you are not supposed to leave acids in contact with cu or aluminium they will oxidise more quickly, however acidic solutions do work as cleaning agents and as you have so far proven the acidity of vinegar is quite low.

i have put concentrated hydrochoric acid onto aluminium...it gets incredibly hot and "smokes" and turns instantly black with oxide. copper turns instantly green with 'verdigris' oxidation.

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Originally Posted by NickS

Actually, that might be a good idea. :eek:

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damn straight then they can finally prove something that matters to US

So yea... I forgot about the experiment and they were left outside:
Translucent blue being Vinegar + Salt, transparent blue being Vinegar, clear being solvent paint thinner. (I got rid of the yellow lighting in solvent one in my sig, liquid itself is crystal clear, also the bubbles in solvent were oils dropped in there by accident, it had no effect on the copper what so ever since they didnt touch, and solvent is lighter than oil anyway.)

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9945/dsc01345jx6.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5228/dsc01355rb3.jpg
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/350/dsc01346ql2.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8536/dsc01347bf5.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1446/dsc01351pl7.jpg
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8079/dsc01352ct1.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6748/dsc01354nm0.jpg
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/219/dsc01357qx1.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6691/dsc01356zk8.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4889/dsc01358on2.jpg

Looks like leaving vinegar in a rad for extended periods of time isn't exactly the best thing to do. Don't dump your blocks for 2 days in ketchup either. :3

So paint thinner would probably work. Isn't it somewhat dangerous to use?

How long were they left outside.

Solvent dangerous?

Anyone stupid enough to leave an open flame near flamable solvents shouldn't have the ability to access such fluids in the first place.

WTF look, if solvent/thinner/alcohol/whatever is dangerous to use, then quite a few people would've perished in a dry ice session :fact:
Thank you so much Thrilla, now people can finally see for themselves what vinegar does. Just a note on vinegar, vinegar (commercially availiable) has a pH of 2.4, and acetic acid itself can eat through pretty much any metal except aluminum because the oxide layer that forms on aluminum can protect it from acetic acid. According to wikipedia acetic acid is very corrosive for its acidity, but that might not be true, but again it might be.

LMAO and don't try the vinegar and salt lol, it's like a blue copper mud right now. I'd use alcohol than paint thinner if I had some, cuz paint thinner is poisonous, alcohol isn't. But still, anti-freeze is more deadly than paint thinner and people use it.

Sorry, I'm going to pick at what you said.
Alcohol is toxic, just not as toxic as paint thinner (acetone right?). Well it also depends on the alcohol. Ethanol takes quite a bit to harm you (a bit of acetone still ends up in your liver...), isopropyl screws your liver with an overdose of acetone and you get digestive problems if it gets in your mouth. Methanol (this is my favorite) gets metabolized into formaldehyde which is poisonous and carcinogenic in large amounts, and destroys your optic nerve. Too much formaldehyde, the formic acid that builds up in your system will poison you and you die, the end. :)

I don't think any of us work with those stuff on daily basis... just like how spray paint is toxic, but a case mod or two does nothing to your body. And if you DO perform them on daily basis... I'm sure you'll have a closet full of protection or cleaning tools.

Bah, there's plenty of toxic stuff we breath in. Riding my bike to school involves breathing in the nitrous oxides and crap coming from the exhaust pipes of gigantic SUVs that burn gas faster than I can drink root beer. Plenty of sulfric acid, nitric acid, lots of carcinogenic stuff, you name it. Besides, if I were to spray paint something, I'd hold my breath the whole time the same way I hold my breath, run 10 feet away, take a breath, run back, when I use epoxy.

hahaha same here, even when I solder, I'd use a respirator. Spray painting gives you huge lung capacities lol

I use lead free solder... I'm used to the lead fume smell anyways. Its not nearly as bad as epoxy.

It's not the lead its the flux lol, solder itself doesn't produce fumes. I haven't used epoxy in ages after I bought an oxy propane torch lol =P

Ok, so in-conclusion: What is the best rad/ waterblock cleaner to use, and for how long? (That won't make your tubes cloudy)

Gotta love your strap-on macro lens, Thrilla. :)

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Originally Posted by ColonelCain

Ok, so in-conclusion: What is the best rad/ waterblock cleaner to use, and for how long? (That won't make your tubes cloudy)

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The cleaner should not make your tubes cloudy, if you were smart enough to rinse it out whatever it is. Assuming that you are using PVC tubing, anything but ketones (that you would use to clean it) will not do any damage. I have alcohol sitting in a section of tubing for 2 months already, and it is crystal clear. Don't tell me you listened to Spawne32's BS.

Didn't listen to his BS. Same question, with clear tubing.

This is why I just use scalding hot water :)

So thats it eh? Scalding hot water?

I've found a 5% HCl + 95% distilled water mixture works best. Rinse with pure distilled water. Cleans copper in seconds. Keep it off any paint though.;)

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Originally Posted by mcoffey

Incredible man, all I can say and will.

andyc

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Log Out time for me, its pointless

We put salt and vinegar on our chips (fries) over in Australia. Nice on deep fried dim-sims too.

Not too sure about radiators. A little too crunchy methinks.

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Originally Posted by Cathar

We put salt and vinegar on our chips (fries) over in Australia. Nice on deep friend dim-sims too.

Not too sure about radiators. A little too crunchy methinks.

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:ROTF:

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Originally Posted by Cathar

We put salt and vinegar on our chips (fries) over in Australia. Nice on deep fried dim-sims too.

Not too sure about radiators. A little too crunchy methinks.

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If your rad cleaner doesn't taste good, how are you going to clean it out with your tounge?

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Originally Posted by Stabbin

I've found a 5% HCl + 95% distilled water mixture works best. Rinse with pure distilled water. Cleans copper in seconds. Keep it off any paint though.;)

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HCl...... I would be scared to put that stuff on anything metal. Its pH is a little lower than pure acetic acid (if I calculated properly which I think I did). In 5th grade I did an experiment with that stuff. I was really evil, I had a 1% mixture or something like that, and I watered some plants with it :stick: and they all turned black and died. It happened so that I spilled some 30% HCl on my pants and it left an orange stain on the green pants :eek:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Peanut

If your rad cleaner doesn't taste good, how are you going to clean it out with your tounge?

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That sounds pretty gross. Wonder who would clean out the radiator with their tounge. I suppose if you only had a little bit left in there....no, n/m not even then. *bleh* :sick:

Ammonia attacks copper, if you'd like to try that.

This is a nice experience, yesterday i bought vinegar to clean my radiator... Perhaps i'll have to clean this with hot water like back in the days...

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Originally Posted by Jasy

This is a nice experience, yesterday i bought vinegar to clean my radiator... Perhaps i'll have to clean this with hot water like back in the days...

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Vinegar is no longer used to clean anything, unless you have a bit of tarnish you'd like to remove from a block. Even then, we prefer Ketchup for a few minutes.

I use X300 Universal Cleanser, it’s used buy heating engineers to Flushes out flux and installation debris from new indirect central heating systems.

I spoke with the tech department at Sentinel and they told me it wouldn’t harm my watercooling parts.

So I used it to clean my PA120.3 & BIP before installing, and it did a great job.

I’m just about to strip my system down to do a full clean, so I’ll use it again.

http://www.sentinel-solutions.net/en...g-Chemical.pdf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ladderman

I use X300 Universal Cleanser, it’s used buy heating engineers to Flushes out flux and installation debris from new indirect central heating systems.

I spoke with the tech department at Sentinel and they told me it wouldn’t harm my watercooling parts.

So I used it to clean my PA120.3 & BIP before installing, and it did a great job.

I’m just about to strip my system down to do a full clean, so I’ll use it again.

http://www.sentinel-solutions.net/en...g-Chemical.pdf

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Do you leave it to soak or flush it through? It's pretty cheap so if it does a good job without harming any hardware i might give it a go as well. :)

Edit: just read the .pdf and it has instructions!

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Vinegar is no longer used to clean anything,

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:shrug: According to --> MaxxxRacer's Water Cooling Guide: The basics An Introduction to Watercooling your Computer <-- :shrug:

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1. Flush the radiator with distilled water. I suggest getting 2-3 2.5gallon jugs and just start pouring about 2.5-3gallons of distilled through the rad.
2. Pour Distilled or De-Ionized water into radiator. - Pour until full, drain and repeat. Shaking the radiator when it is half full of water will help. Repeat this 3-5 times.
3. Following the same procedure as in step 2, repeat with vinegar.
4. Fill the radiator with vinegar, and let it sit for appx. 1 hour.
5.Flush the radiator, following the procedure of step 2. Repeat Step 3 as well.
6.Repeat Step 4.
7.Repeat Step 2.

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Also says

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I have updated the guide to limit the soaking of components in vinegar for no more than one hour. A tale-tale sign that vinegar is eating your copper components is a blue tinge to the vinegar, which is caused by copper ions being dissolved into the vinegar.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyprio

Do you leave it to soak or flush it through? It's pretty cheap so if it does a good job without harming any hardware i might give it a go as well. :)

Edit: just read the .pdf and it has instructions!

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All you do is mix a small amount of Sentinal with some warm water, then fill the rad and leave it to soak for about 30 mins. I give the rad a few good shakes to help release the flux.

Then rinse the rad in the normal manner.

You can repeat the process more than once if you need to.

I have loads left and it will last you a good few times

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RubberDuck

:shrug: According to --> MaxxxRacer's Water Cooling Guide: The basics An Introduction to Watercooling your Computer <-- :shrug:

Quote:

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1. Flush the radiator with distilled water. I suggest getting 2-3 2.5gallon jugs and just start pouring about 2.5-3gallons of distilled through the rad.
2. Pour Distilled or De-Ionized water into radiator. - Pour until full, drain and repeat. Shaking the radiator when it is half full of water will help. Repeat this 3-5 times.
3. Following the same procedure as in step 2, repeat with vinegar.
4. Fill the radiator with vinegar, and let it sit for appx. 1 hour.
5.Flush the radiator, following the procedure of step 2. Repeat Step 3 as well.
6.Repeat Step 4.
7.Repeat Step 2.

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Also says

Quote:

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I have updated the guide to limit the soaking of components in vinegar for no more than one hour. A tale-tale sign that vinegar is eating your copper components is a blue tinge to the vinegar, which is caused by copper ions being dissolved into the vinegar.

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I'm fairly certain that both of those are slightly outdated. Any rad that is RoHS compliant does not require vinegar for cleaning as the flux used is very different. Also. any non-RoHS rad that has already been cleaned does not need to have vinegar run through it again. Only boiling water is needed for both of these scenario's.