Rad cleaning acording to Marci aka Thermochill

The newer rads aparantly are made with a water based flux says Marci. So i boiled the kettle and ran my hot tap. Lucky i had an old pump about, Eheim 1048 and some bits of hose. Left it running whilest i had a :banana::banana::banana: and wow it did work. Boiling hot water steamed my kitchen up and rad is clean inside now as loads of white crap came out! Suck as when i get the 5 or 6 other rads i'm going to have to do this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...e/IMG_0248.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...e/IMG_0250.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...e/IMG_0249.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...h_MVI_0251.jpg

Video for the hell of it

Neat.

The only think I need to change is the use distilled water instead of tap water.

Here in the SE the water is hard, very hard.

You should see my kettle XD.

I dont think there will be much of an issue using normal tap water for the initial flushing, if you follow up with a round of destilled water afterwards.

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Originally Posted by WildEye

I dont think there will be much of an issue using normal tap water for the initial flushing, if you follow up with a round of destilled water afterwards.

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Well, limescale is nasty, very nasty, and here drinking water has it in abundancy. I'd rather not risk it.

There you go. I think that's most of the white crap that clouds tubes.

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Originally Posted by IanY

There you go. I think that's most of the white crap that clouds tubes.

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nah. i cleaned my 120.3 PA manay times. first vinegar to soak for 24 hours. then distilled water for 24 hours. I repeated this for a week until nothing but clear water.

one month later, white cloudy tubes, its definitely something reacting in the tubing itself.

but yeah I see you are saying "most of the white crap" so yeah thats true but cant stop it happening.

well it had been left soaking for a month with white vinegar as i got taken i'll and it doesn't leak at all! The wat in my gaff goes through a filter. Misis s funny about it. One on the main feed then one for all the taps. Cost a fortre but she pays not me. Water here in Bristol is okay ish not amazing i like it mine, better than Plymouth and my rad is shiny inside

I didn't know that an Enheim 1048 can survive hot water. I would have done it long ago if I had known. I was always worried that the pump would die and so only used warm water and not hot.

The way I do it now is to hook up a T-line and a pump to radiator, with a filter in the middle. Run it for 1/2 a day. Some crap floating in the tubes after a while.

I though i got 2 of them spear, i can't sell them as no one wants to buy them so why not. They can survive outside in the cold so warmth muist be okay and my house is still up! Water temp was 88c (boiler has a temp gague on there) let alone stuff that came out the kettle

That old stuff is more useful than many people think . Plus I have ample supply of cheap crappy plastic throw away tubing lol

Got two of them going spear

im not familiar with everyone around here yet, is marci a rep or the owner of thermochill?

Marci
Technical Manager at Over-Clock UK Ltd / ThermoChill

6 is the magic number for vinegar cleaning the pa 120.3

Check it out

honestly, i really don't get what the fuss is about cleaning rads with vinegar.

bought my PA120.1 PA120.3 a few months ago, and its been running for 24/7 for a few months, no clouding at all.

all i did was using boiling water straight into rad, soak until the whole thing has cooled down to warm, repeat for 5 times, then hot water from tap filled to half full, and shake the rad like you'll win the lottery from it, pour water out, repeat filling to half and shake for 5 times, then fill rad with DI water into rad and shake again, repeat again.....and thats it

that clouding thing, ever thought its caused by additive?

Hmm, I like weihk's idea. Clouding I think is due to the tubing material since some times of tubings cloud much faster than others.

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Originally Posted by pumbertot

nah. i cleaned my 120.3 PA manay times. first vinegar to soak for 24 hours. then distilled water for 24 hours. I repeated this for a week until nothing but clear water.

one month later, white cloudy tubes, its definitely something reacting in the tubing itself.

but yeah I see you are saying "most of the white crap" so yeah thats true but cant stop it happening.

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Um, FLAWED CLEANING PROCESS?
Seriously think about it. You need repeated rinses not just soaks to clean the rad. Do you think soaking your hands in water would clean them???

yeah leaving it to soak wont do anything. you need to shake the hell out of it, thats what i did and all is well

And perhaps BETTER SOLVENT? sorry, I had to say that.

Theres no need for a solvent as the flux is water soluble, but I suppose a bit of solvent wouldn't do harm as much as vinegar is reported to.

Well what I meant was that guy who used vinegar:mad: should've used some solvent because vinegar is a bad solvent.

what solvent? if vinegar is so bad, then i had better stop using it tp clean my rad. i dont see how it is when you rinse it out straight away

Vinegar worked for cleaning my pa 120.3 - the proof is in the pictures. Like other posters have said, you do need to shake it around, as well as leaving it to soak, and rinsing with distilled water. Took me 6 times in all - so perseverance is key. The loop's been running for about 6 months with clear water. :fact:

guys/gals

there is a few ways to clean your rads, as far as i can see, people are soaking rads with liquid that i use for fish and chips

now, as someone has mentioned, soaking does not clean, unless its your hand is soaking in bleach.

to my previous post about only using boiling hot water to soak rad for 5 times then hottest water from tap filled to half full and shake it like mad for 5 times, there is reason why i took that route for cleaning.

look at it this way, goto your kitchen, find a pan thats greasy, really really greasy, now put vinegar in it and soak for 8hrs, yes, some of that greasy will come off, but not all, not matter how many times you soak it.

now, with greasy pan, fill with water and boil, soak till water cools down, boil water again and stir water as much as you can without covering your kitchen walls in water, now, doesn't pan look more clean??

the reason for my cleaning that does not have the word vinegar in it, is because A, hot water is good for cleaning, B, i shake it, C, ever seen how bad hot vinegar is for any metal??

instead of cleaning rads for a day, now you can have a clean rad in 2hrs, great isn't it?

I am starting the think after cleaning out the radiator with vinegar the flux is out, however the vinegar starts to have a chemical reaction with the Radiator creating more whitish stuff. Then people keep putting more vinegar in with little to no improvement from a previous soaking since it just keeps eating away at the radiator creating more white stuff.

In other words just use the universal solvent which is WATER! Its not corrosive like vinegar.
All you are doing is making the walls of your radiator dangerously thin.

If anything, vinegar after-effects would (should) result in black deposits rather than white deposits...

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Originally Posted by Marci

If anything, vinegar after-effects would (should) result in black deposits rather than white deposits...

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that explains why some people have black crap in the loop then...

I subscribe to the nothing-but-water high flow routine. I use nothing but water to clean rads (of all brands). As mentioned, I don't soak because there's no detergent in my loop. I hook rads to pumps with an in-line filter in between. I run them for several cycles. The combination of the high water velocity, short loop and the in-line filter takes care of all the "crap". Unfortunately, until now, I didn't think to use hot water, only lukewarm distilled water.

right so the out come of all this is...

to use Hot water from the tap. i.e no boiling kettles. just the hottest water that will come out of you're tap. then let it cool down, shake it, rinse it out then flush with de-ionized water.. correct?

Isn't cleaning the radiator with vinager in the water cooling sticky?

I used vinegar, pour it in let it sit a few hours and flush with distilled, shakeing it the whole time. Did that about 4 times.

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Originally Posted by Marci

If anything, vinegar after-effects would (should) result in black deposits rather than white deposits...

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What are the black deposits? Are they harmful?

Black deposits is from the chemical reaction of the Vinegar actually eating away at metal.

If using vinegar is bad, how comes you've not said anything before?

People have been purchasing Thermochill rads because of their performance, yet no-one from Thermochill (that I've seen) has posted saying that cleaning with vinegar will damage your radiator.

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Marci:
If anything, vinegar after-effects would (should) result in black deposits rather than white deposits...

Kurz:
Black deposits is from the chemical reaction of the Vinegar actually eating away at metal.

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Yet if Kurz is telling the truth, you are still not telling people that it will damage the radiators using Vinegar....Why Not?


Cheers,
Cool_Dude

If I need to be corrected feel free, but this is just what im thinking right now....

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Originally Posted by cool_dude

If using vinegar is bad, how comes you've not said anything before?

People have been purchasing Thermochill rads because of their performance, yet no-one from Thermochill (that I've seen) has posted saying that cleaning with vinegar will damage your radiator.



Yet if Kurz is telling the truth, you are still not telling people that it will damage the radiators using Vinegar....Why Not?


Cheers,
Cool_Dude

If I need to be corrected feel free, but this is just what im thinking right now....

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same as buying a car, you go buy a powerful car, and you know there is a risk of you crashing, and the place that sold you the car wont tell you ''drive like a nanny, or eles you will die''

everyone has to get over this ''why didnt the manufacture/shop tell me doing XXXXXXXX to it is bad?''

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Originally Posted by weihk

everyone has to get over this ''why didnt the manufacture/shop tell me doing XXXXXXXX to it is bad?''

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Not really, Thermochill can clearly see that the majority of consumers clean their rad using the Vinegar method. Yet I haven't seen one post saying "do not clean it using vinegar, it will eat away the metal, hot water will clean the flux just fine" or something to that effect.

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Originally Posted by weihk

same as buying a car, you go buy a powerful car, and you know there is a risk of you crashing, and the place that sold you the car wont tell you ''drive like a nanny, or eles you will die''

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I know they wont, because thats just common sense.

I have to agree with cool_dude. I am suprised its taken this long for Marci to say vinegar is bad, when a lot of people have been openly using it!

not trying to cause a argument here.....well......hope nothing i've said had made people want to kill me....

erm.....sometimes, i think any rad makers who don't tell people what to use for cleaning a rad is simply because they don't want to, if any of us somehow manage to break a rad, they'll be happy....because you might go back and buy another one = more money for them.

the other thing i can think of, maybe its because they know the words going round in big forums saying using vinega will be give you uber clean rads, so they keep their mouth shut because they think no one will listen anyway, because some watercooling uber god from vinegacleaning.com/forum said so.

in Marci case, and IMHO, i think he just can't be arsed to say anything, maybe he has tried saying water is good enough many moons ago, but he got questioned so many times he just gave up, took a step back, and said 'yeah, if you say so...'

argh, i dont know, its just one of those things that keep going round and round with no ends.

oh, with regards to the powerful car bit, everyone knows they will die from being a bellend on the road, but, you'll never see car makers stop making more and more powerful cars, and they will never tell you to drive like a nanny because they expect everyone to have commen sense, thats just one of those things where money comes into play, rich bellend crashed 200mph car, rich bellend somehow walk away from it, rich bellend goes buy another 200mph car. (see? someone buy a rad, use vinega, vinega thought eatting a chunk out of rad seems fun, that someone goes buy another rad, yet, rad make didn't say a word about vinega)

---------sorry in advance if i had offence anyone, sorry--------

the reason i used vinegar was because i read the sticky here, and it said use vinegar,.... so i did, only untill i read this thread do i realize that its not the best idea.

so i have used hot water and it looks to be fine now.

Well I see that the Sticky has been updated but it's still a bit misleading. I don't think that you should recommend soaking copper blocks or brass radiators in vinegar at all. As for radiators, why substitute vinegar (95% water) for isopropyl alcohol (organic solvent) if the flux is water soluble? I'd like to see how much 'gunk' alcohol removes after numerous flushes with warm water though. Perhaps you could change the cleaning recipe to just numerous flushes with warm/distilled water then possibly flush with alcohol (if it turns out this is necessary).

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Originally Posted by cool_dude

Not really, Thermochill can clearly see that the majority of consumers clean their rad using the Vinegar method. Yet I haven't seen one post saying "do not clean it using vinegar, it will eat away the metal, hot water will clean the flux just fine" or something to that effect.


I know they wont, because thats just common sense.

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You havent looked hard enough then. Ive seen on many occasions that others have discussed the corrosive properties of vinegar and copper. But that the amount of corrosion isnt something to the level of say, that liquid metal stuff on aluminum.

Excessive vcore is bad for cpu's yet 99.9% here will overclock regardless. Marci advised me to use vinegar, I took his advice and got loads of crap out of my thermochill and I thanked him for the advice, afterall who knows best? I would however like to think that if the rad is now damaged and leaks due to these instructions I would legally be able to obtain a replacement being that I was acting on advice from thermochill's technical director:p:. I'm sure Marci was just trying to help folk tbh.

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Originally Posted by Jimmer411

You havent looked hard enough then. Ive seen on many occasions that others have discussed the corrosive properties of vinegar and copper. But that the amount of corrosion isnt something to the level of say, that liquid metal stuff on aluminum.

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I meant from Marci/Thermochill. After all they're the guys that know what they're talking about as they know how the radiators are made.

Yes I have seen discussion on the corrosive properties of vinegar on copper - but I (like the majority of people on here) will do either what the Sticky says, or what someone from Thermochill says.

The sticky suggests that cleaning using vinegar in your rad for various soaks is absolutley fine, therefore loads of people doing this. Yet Marci* is now saying that its fine to clean with hot water and vinegar leaves black deposits (which shows the vinegar is eating away the rad**)

*= This is not anything personal to you Marci, its towards Thermochill.
**= Based on the info given from Kurz.


:edit:

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Originally Posted by Ic3man

Excessive vcore is bad for cpu's yet 99.9% here will overclock regardless. Marci advised me to use vinegar, I took his advice and got loads of crap out of my thermochill and I thanked him for the advice, afterall who knows best? I would however like to think that if the rad is now damaged and leaks due to these instructions I would legally be able to obtain a replacement being that I was acting on advice from thermochill's technical director:p:. I'm sure Marci was just trying to help folk tbh.

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Yeh, so its probably Thermochill that didn't tell him and he was just saying that because he assumed it was the best thing to do, worked on other rads and was trying to help you out like you say. This is why im not blaming it on Marci.

Seems another point to consider here is that Thermochill switched to a water based flux in order to be RoHS compliant. This was only effective July 1 of last year.

Before RoHS, they used some other flux which likely required vinegar to clean.

Sooo, if you are in the EU, you are likely getting water based flux. It depends on the age of the inventory at your reseller. Thermochill can no longer ship non RoHS goods in the EU, but I believe they can still ship them to the rest of the world. I seriously doubt they have any non RoHS inventory this late in the game.

Its simple really. Hook up ur pump rad blocks and filter. Filter right AFTER the radiator and let it run overnight. The heat from the pump will heat up the water pretty damn well and the flow of the water will be much quicker and faster than any shaking over a long period of time. I mean can you really shake like mad for hours? Just leave ur loops run overnight with the filter and u should be good.

Slightly off topic but does any one know if Swiftech or Black Ice uses water soluble flux in there radiators as well? Seeing as Thermochill uses it, it would be much better if it became a standard so cleaning isn't such a pain.

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Originally Posted by cool_dude

**= Based on the info given from Kurz.[/I]

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Actually... Marci posted this. I basically supported him...
However I am trying to find the effects of an acid on copper.

And I found a somewhat creditable link backing this up.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem03505.htm

http://www.chem.umn.edu/outreach/Car...VinCopper.html

yep was just following stick advice. in future its hot water from the tap followed by ditilled for me. I thought de-inonised was bad also?

deionized water is unnatural water, basically water likes to have some ions in its solution. So it'll strip the ions from anything it comes in contact to which makes deionized water a bit corrosive. So please don't use deionized water, Distilled is just fine.

What about boiling distilled water and then running it through your loop with a filter after the rad? Do that for awhile and then you accomplish your cleaning and leak testing in one step... I dunno just a thought. Maybe soak/rinse with vinegar first before doing this.

People are doing what they will always do... reading and digesting selectively what they WANT to read and digest.

LONG (years) ago I stated Thermochill rads shouldn't need flushing with anything but water, but if folks ain't happy with that then to follow recommended methods elsewhere on the net as we haven't done any investigations ourselves on the issue, as have never had the need to.

Vinegar is FINE to use for cleaning your rad, as long as you don't leave it in there for days on end. A few hours then a rinse is absolutely fine. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's unnecessary and hotwater will do the job. Vinegar on it's own WILL NOT cause any longterm damage to the rad. It will cause oxidisation of the surface, which when mixed with elements from solder and flux may result in a black tarnish... once done with the vinegar you should be flushing with distilled anyways to remove this oxidisation, and thus remove the "dirty" layer... this is the whole point of cleaning - to strip a fractionally thin surface layer away thus leaving a clean layer beneath... and because vinegar is actually doing this you're all complaining??

Also bear in mind, I only discovered we'd shifted to water-based flux last week...

Even now, after I've stated that folks only need to use hot water to flush OUR rads with, folks are STILL debating "what can do it better"... "should I use hot water AND vinegar?"... so what the hell difference does it make what I say?? You guys'll do what you always do and take it one step further, so what was the point of me saying it in the first place?

You ask what you should do, folks tell you, y'all do whatever you wanna do regardless... just as long as there's a manufacturer there to blame at the end of it all, who cares?? The mentalities displayed here are the reasons why very few other manufacturers are present to offer their input on forums such as this. The only reason I'm here is because I was a member here LONG before ThermoChill and my involvement in such ever existed, and planned to remain so as why should I sacrifice a personal interest and hobby for work??

There are many products out there DESIGNED for flushing and cleaning radiators. These are the right tools for the job. However, these will add further contaminants to your loop. So, you can't use the stuff DESIGNED to do the job - which is the stuff the entire radiator industry would say to use and which is the only stuff anyone can really RECOMMEND to do the job, so anything else is OPINION or recommendation. If you want to do it right take your pick. I won't be advising further on the issue.


DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO.

My solution for cloudy tubing is to use Tygon 3400, it is garanteed to not cloud. :-)

Aww now everyone has gone and angered Marci....

I listen to you Marci. The only reason I think vinegar is with other manufacturer's RAD's... If I had one of yours, I would just use hot water. Unless someone can confirm that they use a water based flux as well.

I have never used vinegar before, and I own a ton of radiators. Its never made any sense to me.

Well people clean their blocks with vinegar and both block and rad are copper, so block to rad makes some sense. Plus we're XS here, not many people follow instructions ;)

basically people cant blame marci for anything, as he said, do what you want to do.


i am just wanting to get to the bottom of what is best for what. seems that the out come as already said is using hot water but thats because the rads use a water based flux.

cheers for the heads up on this guys. :)

DO NOT LET IT AIR DRY AND DONT SOAK IT FOR DAYS... LOL

i agree in the stikies it should say somewhere that some rads use water flux/some dont

I think there is a misconception. Just because lots of crap came out (which is true with water, alcohol, listerine, vinegar, etc.etc.etc. trust me I tested all of them before vinegar) doesn't mean its the most effective way of cleaning or if its very effective at all!!! What makes you think that vinegar is a good solvent and will clean things up? Its probably 1. because the stickies said so 2. everyone knows acid EATS things right? so it should EAT the crap out!!!.

And also, wtf why would you want the inside of your rad "shiny"?????? You cannot see the inside, and that like 0.000000001" layer of copper oxide will really hurt performance? If you're that worried about performance, take some acetone, and dump it on your rad to kill all the paint, and you will see a much greater benefit in temps (about 0.001C as opposed to 0.0000000001C okay look I made those numbers up but really....)

lol
ah Marci, as little as I like or respect your friend, always we return to the 'net clue factor'
christ how many times has rad cleaning been described, but each venue has it's virgin noobs who already know everything
infinitum ad nausium (sp no doubt)

conventional rads are cleaned in hot caustic, got that sports ?
then rinsed in sequential ultrasonic cleaners and the pH monitored, by 'reasonable' mfgrs

what do you wizards think is happening with lead and acid ?
no one here a matls engr ?
sort through the matls and their constituent components and all is really quite clear
and why you guys see no 'professionals' here - or any enthusiast forum

ignore me, have fun

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Originally Posted by BillA

lol

conventional rads are cleaned in hot caustic, got that sports ?
then rinsed in sequential ultrasonic cleaners and the pH monitored, by 'reasonable' mfgrs

what do you wizards think is happening with lead and acid ?

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I thought the point was that since RoHS, they have now switched to a water based flux.

Doesn't this change the rules, or does it not make a difference. Since RoHS occured roughly six months ago, do we just blindly follow what was done before, or look for a better way.

Doesn't seem to me a water based flux is all that caustic.

Wasn't that the point of RoHS ???

who is "they" ?
Marci described RoHS, which the USA does not require
look to your rad source, evaluate the effect of acid on the rad you have in any case
re-read Marci's post if you have difficulty

as he said, do whatever you wish

Sorry.
When I said "they", I was referring to Thermochill, since "they" are the subject of this thread.

No difficulty. I believe water based flux makes a difference as to the cleaning requirements.

This is a recent anomaly.

Actually, USA does require RoHS if you plan on exporting to the EU. I'm very familiar with this as I have a myriad of products I export to the EU and since the EU represents 1/3 of my sales, all my products are now RoHS compliant.

Anyone selling radiators (or other products) in the EU has to conform to RoHS as of July of last year. Regardless of where they are manufactured.

This applies to Swiftech, Black Ice, Cooling Works, etc.

Since Marci just found out last week that RoHS required a change to a "water based flux" in Thermochill rad's, it seems likely this would also apply to any manufacturer (US or otherwise) wanting to do business in the EU.

Based on this recent news from Marci, who I understand only represents Thermochill, I'm wondering if all radiators sold today can be effectively cleaned with HOT WATER. Distilled, Deionized, tap or otherwise.

If sold in the EU, I believe the answer is yes.

But, as you say, we will always do as we wish.

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Originally Posted by Marci

Even now, after I've stated that folks only need to use hot water to flush OUR rads with, folks are STILL debating "what can do it better"... "should I use hot water AND vinegar?"... so what the hell difference does it make what I say?? You guys'll do what you always do and take it one step further, so what was the point of me saying it in the first place?

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Boiling Vinegar!!

note: for anyone dumb enough to try this, please wear a breathing aparatus of some sort so that you dont inhale acid.

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Since Marci just found out last week that RoHS required a change to a "water based flux" in Thermochill rad's, it seems likely this would also apply to any manufacturer (US or otherwise) wanting to do business in the EU.

Based on this recent news from Marci, who I understand only represents Thermochill, I'm wondering if all radiators sold today can be effectively cleaned with HOT WATER. Distilled, Deionized, tap or otherwise.

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Jumping in with both feet and assuming too much d00d...

Our Production Manager (Andy) CHOSE to go with Water-based flux when regs changed for RoHS compliance... however, there are still non-water-based fluxes that are fine to use... there's a whole list of different fluxes which are all RoHS Compliant, covering organic and inorganic waterbased, rosin-based etc etc. All manufacturers are free to choose whichever they want to use, so no, not ALL rads produced for sale within EU will use water-based flux. They MAY do so, but there's no hard rule enforcing it... merely rules enforcing the use of older fluxes with components that do not comply with RoHS.

Hence I keep stressing that this is the case for our rads only, and my advice for our rads cannot be held up against other manufacturer's rads. You'll all have to check with those other manufacturers for yourselves to find out what flux they're using.


It should also be noted that no-one is marching round the EU stamping "failed RoHS" on items. There isn't anyone in customs sat checking every shipment for RoHS compliancy. There are still PLENTY of goods coming from outside of Europe into the EU which would fail RoHS compliancy without a doubt. It's an unenforced regulation as far as I can tell. Certainly no-one came knocking on our door to inform us of any changes we had to make... it was spotted on the news on TV one day, and the next day we had a meeting and went thru it all for ourselves and sorted it out with no external advice or interference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marci

I keep stressing that this is the case for our rads only, and my advice for our rads cannot be held up against other manufacturer's rads. You'll all have to check with those other manufacturers for yourselves to find out what flux they're using..

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Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't seen any posts where you were stressing this. I only saw you referring to Thermochill radiators.

This sounds like a good argument for purchasing Thermochill rads over the others. I'd likely include it in my marketing material. Then again, if you don't know what the others are using, it may be a moot point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marci

It should also be noted that no-one is marching round the EU stamping "failed RoHS" on items. There isn't anyone in customs sat checking every shipment for RoHS compliancy.

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And with RoHS-3 and RoHS-5, that is a good thing for many of us ;)

Thanks.

After not much success using vinegar, I boiled some distilled water and flushed out the PA 120.3 many times and shook it as well. Water is very clear now, much better than I was able to achieve using vinegar.

Boiling water ftw!

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Originally Posted by thunderstruck!

After not much success using vinegar, I boiled some distilled water and flushed out the PA 120.3 many times and shook it as well. Water is very clear now, much better than I was able to achieve using vinegar.

Boiling water ftw!

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Woot! That is what was expected... can anyone confirm this with HWLabs and Swiftech rads?

I'm going to point this out: No one proved or did any tests that vinegar was a more effective solvent when used with non-water soluble flux. In fact, vinegar is mostly water which is a solvent anyways... I think its a waste of vinegar, if not killing your stuff. Besides, it will corrode pretty much everything a little bit, even if its a tiny bit, and if you care about mixing metals you should care about this.
And I'm going to repeat myself: "works well" does not mean "the best". I have googled the thermaltake water cooling systems, and I found tiny forums with everyone using them. Guess what they said? "it works well". Okay do you think thermaltake makes the best watercooling?

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

I'm going to point this out: No one proved or did any tests that vinegar was a more effective solvent when used with non-water soluble flux. In fact, vinegar is mostly water which is a solvent anyways... I think its a waste of vinegar, if not killing your stuff. Besides, it will corrode pretty much everything a little bit, even if its a tiny bit, and if you care about mixing metals you should care about this.
And I'm going to repeat myself: "works well" does not mean "the best". I have googled the thermaltake water cooling systems, and I found tiny forums with everyone using them. Guess what they said? "it works well". Okay do you think thermaltake makes the best watercooling?

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But no one (AFAIK) has proved otherwise either... maybe its why people have clouding.

A little bit of corrosion is not going to hurt anything if its controlled... if you care about that little bit of corrosion then I guess you are going to have to set up a sterile/vacuum enviroment...

All I know is I am going to try running boiling distilled water through my loop initially to clean it.

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This sounds like a good argument for purchasing Thermochill rads over the others. I'd likely include it in my marketing material. Then again, if you don't know what the others are using, it may be a moot point.

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Just noticed over on HWLabs site...

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Uses 100% Non-corrosive water-solluble fluxing process.

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(GT Stealth & Xtreme product description)

So that answers what you should do if you're using a HWLabs rad.

I tried the boiling water routine and the radiator gets really hot .. so be careful about your fingers lol :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marci

Just noticed over on HWLabs site...


(GT Stealth & Xtreme product description)

So that answers what you should do if you're using a HWLabs rad.

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Awesome, thank you Marci.

So boiling water it is then. Will save me from having to buy more vinegar... I already go through enough of it cleaning my humidifier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IanY

I tried the boiling water routine and the radiator gets really hot .. so be careful about your fingers lol :)

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I had to use pot holders when cleaning mine. :banana:

Would running boiling water through an AQ50Z be detrimental to its being? lol

I used a Eheim 1048, got 2 and both are spears fo fill and bleeding my rig. It seamed okay in sucking up and being inmersed in boiling hot water...but i no longer care about it's wellfair.

Just fill the rad and leav it for ten mins then emopty half out, seal it and shake it vilolently, then epmty and run it through with the hot tap.

I got one of the hose tap fitting things for your garden, nice high presure here and i just left it to run and clean it out

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pete

I used a Eheim 1048, got 2 and both are spears fo fill and bleeding my rig. It seamed okay in sucking up and being inmersed in boiling hot water...but i no longer care about it's wellfair.

Just fill the rad and leav it for ten mins then emopty half out, seal it and shake it vilolently, then epmty and run it through with the hot tap.

I got one of the hose tap fitting things for your garden, nice high presure here and i just left it to run and clean it out

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Sounds good, redoing my loop this weekend, taking out this pentek filter and adding an EK 1900 block ;) My rad seems clean but I want to clean it trying the boiling water method

Just wear gloves, the hot waer will show just how good these rads are at conduciting/radiating heat...wont take long to warm up

How does one recommend cleaning a block without vinegar?

I have a boiler in my flat for my hot water. So... I just took my PA120.2 out of the box, uncovered only the holes (kept the bubble wrap on to protect it and my hands lol) and went in the bathtub. Hot water in, shake and repeat. Since is so easy with the tap water (if you have a boiler, so no kettles and mess) I flushes it maybe 50 times :)

The rad now is cleaner than clean and that smell went away. Also without the bubble wrap, you definatley need gloves. It burns for real. The heat excghanging works :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bun-Bun

But no one (AFAIK) has proved otherwise either... maybe its why people have clouding.

A little bit of corrosion is not going to hurt anything if its controlled... if you care about that little bit of corrosion then I guess you are going to have to set up a sterile/vacuum enviroment...

All I know is I am going to try running boiling distilled water through my loop initially to clean it.

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Okay sorry I'm bringing this back up, but I want to clear things up a bit.
Vinegar is 5% acetic acid, 95% water right?
Acetic acid is slightly polar, and has the useful property of being able to dissolve polar substances. Keep in mind that's PURE acetic acid.
Now we water it down so its 5%. If you put a drop of oil in, will it dissolve? I don't think so ;)
Lets take a look at alcohol. It also can somewhat dissolve non-polar substances. But we can get alcohol at high concentrations without risks to health and the stuff around us (acetic acid is highly corrosive ;)). If you want to clean something that isn't going to dissolve in water, you might want to try alcohol ;)
Well actually, unless you're someone like me and have some rad filled with disgusting greasy stuff, black and white flaky particles coming out, then hot water is more effective. Water like you know is referred to as the "universal solvent" because it is so effective at dissolving things, and it can dissolve pretty big amounts of solute. And the higher the temperature, for most substances, the higher concentration of solute you can have in the solution.
Sorry for bringing this up again, I couldn't help it ;)
Waiting for personal attacks...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by serialk11r

Okay sorry I'm bringing this back up, but I want to clear things up a bit.
Vinegar is 5% acetic acid, 95% water right?
Acetic acid is slightly polar, and has the useful property of being able to dissolve polar substances. Keep in mind that's PURE acetic acid.
Now we water it down so its 5%. If you put a drop of oil in, will it dissolve? I don't think so ;)
Lets take a look at alcohol. It also can somewhat dissolve non-polar substances. But we can get alcohol at high concentrations without risks to health and the stuff around us (acetic acid is highly corrosive ;)). If you want to clean something that isn't going to dissolve in water, you might want to try alcohol ;)
Well actually, unless you're someone like me and have some rad filled with disgusting greasy stuff, black and white flaky particles coming out, then hot water is more effective. Water like you know is referred to as the "universal solvent" because it is so effective at dissolving things, and it can dissolve pretty big amounts of solute. And the higher the temperature, for most substances, the higher concentration of solute you can have in the solution.
Sorry for bringing this up again, I couldn't help it ;)
Waiting for personal attacks...

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Not sure why you are bringing it back up. I for one havent been challenging it. All I have been using to clean my loop is distilled water and boiling it for flushing.

With the possible exception of Marci, I suspect I have ran many more substances through copper based rads than most by a long shot. Vinegar can toast a rad if you use it incorrectly...I know because I have eaten holes through thin-walled copper rads and heatercores while running tests with it as well as a wide-range of chemicals while working out a method to effectively clean weaponcores. Needless to say, that really sucks when it kills a monstercore that was other wise perfect...if you have no clue what a monstercore is, see the attached pic.

Really effective heat exchangers by their nature are fairly thin-walled. The wrong cleaner (or maybe the right cleaner at the wrong temperature...) can produce a nice sprinkler effect from your rad. If the flux used in the new ones is water-soluble (and I would readily take Marci's word on that one) then using anything beyond that is an unnecessary risk.

“But I want the inside of my rad to shine like a copper mirror…”
With an uber-thin water-copper-air interface, do ya think that is going to lower your temps to a point you could measure even if you are using a $900 thermometer like the one sitting on my bench?? Unless there is so much trash inside the rad that it is blocking an insane amount of water from going through any of the flow channels, I seriously doubt it. If anything, worry about the dust and other crap that will eventually restrict the airflow through the fins of the rad.