The German community EffizienzGurus.de wrote a Tutorial "How to mod a DDC-1T to a DDC-1PlusT" ..
The text is in German, but the pictures are good!
*UPDATE*
English version available, too!
English HowTo on EffizienzGurus.de
Have fun! ;)
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The German community EffizienzGurus.de wrote a Tutorial "How to mod a DDC-1T to a DDC-1PlusT" ..
The text is in German, but the pictures are good!
*UPDATE*
English version available, too!
English HowTo on EffizienzGurus.de
Have fun! ;)
Too late :P
Afaik it only works on new revision pumps.
How do you change a plus to a normal?
turn down the volts!!! yay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
It can be done, do the reverse...Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
Easier said than done. I tried using diodes but the solder joints melted. and you need 9 volts to start the pump, so the 7 volt mod doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r
That's what I was thinking but my board doesn't have the solder bridge. It already looks like the first pic. And it's definitely a DDC-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by nikhsub1
Hook it up to a sunbeam rheobus lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
u need to have the new revision with blue impeller to do this!
It doesn't work that way.......Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r
Is plust just the 18w version?
Jup
I think the mod is to turn a 10W into a 18W, am I right?
If this is the case, I'll be buying some 10W's soon.
You're right! :)
while you do so, you might want to ask a few questions first, namely if the 10W's you'll be ordering are the newer revision (as shown in the guide and mentioned here), this modification presumably only applies to the newer 10W revision with the blue impeller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jochenp
What I honestly don't like about the new revision is the seemingly small inlet on the rotor. I haven't had one here so far, but judging from the pictures it seems to be a lot tighter than on the older DDC+.
Something aftermarket tops won't fix?
How could it? The inket on the rotor itself looks way smaller. So then you'd have a large inlet on the top, but a small inlet on the rotor.
LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
I'm gonna have one of the engineers at Laing send one of the new pumps to me so that I can actually measure what the differences are... AFAIK, the blue-impellered pumps haven't really hit the US market yet and they'll be phased in silently. As such, there'll be a period of time where some people may end up getting the older ones, while others get the newer ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
Anyway, like I said, I'm gonna see what I can do... there's more to mess with than just the impeller housing. ;)
Hey can't you stick a cone shaped thing in the inlet to make the water get sucked in more efficiently?Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
This is how my DDC-2 board looks. I also noticed that it's a version 6.0 board (whatever that means.) Obviously, there's a huge difference between the board layout of my board and the board in the article above.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/graystar/wate...g/IMG_0030.JPG
http://home.nyc.rr.com/graystar/wate...g/IMG_0032.JPG
You have the old version of the Laing.. it's just with the Laing with blue impeller possible..
@petra: That would definitely be some interesting info! I'll try to get my hands on a newer revision too. I'm really curious about the changes they made to the impeller.
There's probably not much to it. Smaller hole equals higher head but less flow. There are many pumps, such as Iwaki, that allow you to change the flow characteristics just by changing the impeller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
They might just be tweaking the performance of the pump to better match our systems. Being a pump company, I would guess that their goal is to have the pump operate near its BEP (Best Efficiency Point) while in a WC loop. That would provide the best performance and longevity for the pump. Historically, pumps in our little loops have operated way outside their intended ranges due to the large head losses of components.
My pump was manufactured in 10/06...about 3 months ago. What exactly does "old version" mean to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by krueml_
I have a red impeller.
Note that the blue impeller doesn't have any holes like the orange did:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/5249/ddcimpua0.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9296/blue9yq.jpg
I wonder if the blue 18w impeller is identical to the 10w pictured above? Maybe it's got holes like the orange?
A few spontaneous questions:
- I wonder if they fixed the starting issues in the new reversion?
I hope so because I don't like recommending pumps with "high" failure rates like I've been doing for the past months.- Are both versions equally priced (by laing that is, not by resellers)?
If not I guess they won't be selling many 18w pumps from now on.- Why did they even release two version?
Because the 10w version is quieter?- With this new smaller impeller hole, maybe alphacools top has an advantage over Petras due to it's smaller inlet?
Maybe I'll be recommending Petra'sTech DDCT-02 blue in a couple of weeks? :rolleyes:
My impeller has holes.Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
It's interesting. The holes match up to channels in the rear of the impeller (see pic) This is the cooling system. It's the same as the Iwaki system. Water is from the volute (highest pressure point) is sucked behind the impeller and out through the holes in the center (lowest pressure point.) As water washes around the impeller, it is kept cool. These pumps do get pretty hot...I find it strange that they would remove the cooling system.
The bearing receptacle has four slots, which I believe is to wash out crap on the bearing via the same high-to-low pressure water flow system. It could be that these slots provide enough flow to cool as well. Dunno...it's all speculation.
It could also be that you have it backwards and the red/orange impeller is actually the latest version. :p: Someone should ask Laing.
http://home.nyc.rr.com/graystar/wate...g/IMG_0035.JPG
I think they will definitely continue to sell the 10w version because it's quieter and because most typical systems won't benefit from the extra flow of the 18w version.
If its that easy to mod the 10w blue to 18w blue then id love to have one and build a switch into it to change between performance and silence.
I dont mind my 18w in the day but at night when im trying to sleep i can hear it across the room (the hard drive is just as bad but im going to work on that too).
Presumably you can swap the blue impeller for an orange one if theres any difference in favour of it (though i doubt it'd be anything major either way).
Have you tried turning the computer off at night? :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Infidel
@graystar: Well yes, but I can't really understand why they'd want to decrease the inlet of the pump. I don't see any negative aspect of that size...
Different sizes for the outlet, ok. I know those and I know why we'd want to have a comparatively small outlet instead of a large one. But I really don't see why a small inlet could be preferable.
If you take a look at the pictures above, the inlet of the complete pump with the blue impeller is much much smaller than on the two seperate rotors.
I see what you mean. It would obviosuly be very interesting to see any performance difference. I think if the small opening is the only difference; it would be easy to alter.
I almost always turn my pc off at night. However sometimes large files need downloading and i have 8 series of red dwarf on dvd to batch encode. The night tends to be the best time.
Exactly, that's what I mean. Now we do have modified tops with a large inlet, matching the inlet of the older rotor, and now Laing alters the rotor towards a smaller inlet... I really don't get their point :(
Maybe there is a different rotor for the 18w version? All we've seen so far is a revised 10w DDC...
I tried some crappy translating site to read some German threads about the pump (I wish I knew German, there's a lot of good stuff in those forums!) and I think someone mentioned that you can add a switch to change between 10w and 18w, but you need to restart the pump for it to work. I guess it's got something to do with the pumps startup checklist, the same checklist that prevents it from starting on too high voltage. So you'd need two switches, one to stop the pump and one to change between performance and silence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Infidel
I could do all that with one switch.
My girlfriend speaks german but i doubt shed be interested in translating this kind of content. I will have a look at the forums myself and see if i find anythign useful.
They're not decreasing the inlet of the pump. They're decreasing the inlet of the impeller. Those are two different things. The dimensions of the impeller affect the performance specifications of the pump. Just like Iwaki pumps...you can change one model pump into another simply by changing the impeller. A smaller impeller inlet equals higher pressure at the cost of reduced flow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
So you wouldnt need to go as far as swapping the impeller. It is simply a case of increasing the size of the hole on the existing impeller?
Yes you are completely right about that. The pump has to be turned off and on after switching the voltage. It doesnt work on the fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
If you have more phases you like to know, quote them and I will translate them for you.
Why would you want to do that? Wasn't the smaller impeller the newer design? I know that my impeller has the larger hole and I'm supposed to have and "old version." :hm:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Infidel
The impeller on the 2nd picture is the impeller of the 10w version of the pump. But I have the "new" 18w version here, too. Both impellers are completely identical. An both of them do not look like the blue impeller as it is shown on the 1st picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
They have the smaller inlet, thats right, but they have those little "holes" in the inside as well. Except from the smaller inlet they are completely identical to the red impeller the "older" 18w version has had. But as I said there is no difference between the 10w versions and the 18w versions impellers.
Ive not really seen all the information about these new versions.
I was wondering if the new circuit board revision was a way in which they could produce both 10w and 18w pumps without the higher production cost associated with producing 2 distinct versions. Saying this i dont even know if the older pumps had different circuit boards in the first place.
As for the changed impeller, im not sure if it was designed to be better performing. New doesnt always mean better. I cant see why restricting the input would increase performance.
But then i dont see why they would change it for the worse seeing as the new design uses more material (barely i know) so wont be cheaper to produce.
As nikhsub1 said, do we know if the 18w blue version has the same impeller as the 10w?
EDIT: Thanks BigKahuna, i wrote this ages before i posted it.
Hmmm, question,
Would 2 x DDC push as much water as 1 x DDC+?
I got 2 x DDCs, and they are quiet enough with the
foaming I put all around it. But I am contemplating
either or not to open em up, and see if I could mod
it to DDC+.
Well here's a pic from the 10 watt version and it has a large hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKahuna
http://www.systemcooling.com/images/...image11big.jpg
Don't think so. And it would be louder. And why would you do it anyways? Do you have a flow problem now? Unless you have a trickle of a flow rate now, boosting flow won't do that much for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by topaimz
The top left impeller isn't blue, it's black. It's an old 10w DDC.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKahuna
Since you said that all blue impellers have holes just like the orange ones I did some more searching and found another pic over at EffizienzGurus. I altered the brightness and contrast a bit so you can see the holes better:
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/7522/blue21co.jpg
In my opinion DDCs already have too much head relative to their flow for most loops. If Graystar is right and the smaller impeller hole does yield higher head and lower flow the need for aftermarket tops sacrificing head to gain flow will be greater than ever. Especially considering that newer blocks like Apogee GT and FuZion have a very low pressure drop. Maybe we'll see modified impellers with larger holes in the future? Kinda like the modified alphacool tops.
Why do you say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
What? Shouldn't double ddcs > a single ddc+? or at least =? And I doubt it will be louder than a single one, they're not too loud in the first place...
hi im basically new on this forum, but ive been watercooling for quite some time.
Dual pumps usually dont add much performance unless your already running a highly restricted loop, or your block has a accelerator which requires high water pressure.
Anyhow i wanted to ask on this mod, i got the swiftech 350, it came with a black impeller. The board revision also says E.4, im guessing this mod is not applicable to me?
Oy...I should have read that over. When I said it would be louder I was referring to a DDC-1 modded to a DDC-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r
As for flow, you can add the head but the max flow rate stays the same, so two DDCs will have a taller and steeper P-Q Curve than a single DDC+. That means that there's a point where the two curves cross, which occurs at roughly 16 ft of head. So if the pressure drop is greater than 16 ft, then the two DDCs will pump more. If the pressure drop is less than 16 ft, then the single DDC+ will pump more.
At 16 ft of head the pumps push less than 1 GPM. But the tests at SystemCooling.com tell us that the pumps will typically push more than 1 GPM in a typical restrictive loop. Therefore, the friction head loss must be less than 16 ft. Therefore, the DDC+ will pump more water than the two DDCs.
Did you forget? Restriction GOES UP as flow goes up. Restriction makes the "head" pressure increase, so the pump gets less flow. Think about the graphs of the restriction tables. Then think of the graphs for blocks, tubing, etc. If you take the equations of the restriction "curves" of all your components, add them, then take the flow/head curve of the pump, the place where the 2 graphs intersect would be your flowrate, approximately at least. The pump's flowrate is affected by the head, the head is affected by the restriction, the restriction is affected by the flowrate.
You're using your "common sense" again...didn't we already talk about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r
I didn't forget anything. It is as I said it is.
Well think about it. Transitive property. If a=b and b=c, then a=c. If a>b and b>c, yayayayay okay. So if flow is affected by the amount of pressure the pump must generate, and restriction affects the amount of pressure the pump must generate, and if flow affects restriction...
uhhhhh when you guys stop fighting, can i get my answer to my question? my 350 has a black impeller so im guessing this mod is out of the question for me? The board says E.4 and i got these not too long ago for a external project. I would like to make them 18W if possible.
If your board doesn't look exactly like the board in the linked forum posts, then you're on your own.
No can do, only the blue impeller ones can be modded it looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeKuh
Thank you for the answer :D
Well, but thats the "old" 10w version of the Laing DDC and not what I was speaking abaout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
Oh, I'm sorry, to me it looked blue...Quote:
Originally Posted by andersson.j
I'll get some pressure measurement equipment during next weeks, so i will try to find out if there is a change in head for the "new" Revisions.
It'd be nice if someone (Petra? ;) ) tested the new revision against the old so that we can see the difference for sure and stop all this speculation :)
I'm going, I'm going... I've gotta get ahold of one first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stocky
At this rate I'll have enough things on my 'to do' list to keep me busy for at least a few years... :rolleyes:
lol, I know how you feel - I get myself it that situation too many times! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Petra
I look forward to seeing the results and comparisons :)
@graystar: Well sure, it's not exactly the "inlet" of the pump, but of the impeller. That's what I meant.
We all do change the tops of the pump to match the pump inlet size to be the impeller inlet size. At least that's what happens when you put on a modded Alpha/ original Petra's top on an old DDC.
But now, the old DDC+ had a slightly larger impeller inlet than the old DDC. Now why would they give the new DDC-models a smaller impeller inlet? The pump does already have enough head!
As we've seen from Petra's testing, the bigger inlet bore of the modded tops even decrease head a little, but give an overall performance gain. So this step from Laing doesn't make any sense to me, honestly.
I have added an english version of the [HowTo]. Just follow the link krueml_ already posted in his starting post or the one in my signature.
By the way: I had an old 10w version of the pumpe here some months ago. Unfortunately I didn't made any real tests at that time, but just from my personal impressions I remember I would say, that the new 10w version of the pump has a little bit more power (~head). But it will be necessary to get reliable results, not "personal impressions". So far everything is speculation.
Great work, guys :D
I don’t. I would never change the top of my DDC. I consider it a waste of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
The top is changed for two reasons. First, to get rid of the 90-degree bend. Second, to use larger diameter tubing. Both of these changes allow more water into the pump. It has absolutely nothing to do with trying to match the impeller inlet.
And how did you determine this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
The test also show that the same thing happened to the Radical top, but the Radical performed worse in the high restriction loop than the standard DDC+. Obviously, there’s more to it than having a bigger inlet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
Petra admits that the shape of the volute does not match the shape of the original top, which is more complex than a simple circle. The loss of head could be due to that. It could be due to a lot of things. To draw a conclusion without being a pump engineer is foolhardy.
But relatively speaking the head loss is small compared to the gain in flow rate. That’s why it performs better, although not by much. In the high restriction loop the pump with the Petra top only pumped 0.07 GPM more than the standard DDC+. This is the price you pay for head loss...the more restrictive the loop, the less value you get from a more-flow/less-head trade off.
It makes perfect sense to want to increase the head. As people move to double and triple rads, multiple GPUs, and adding NB blocks to loops, the friction head loss is getting larger and larger. We need more head to keep the flow at 1 GPM through so many restrictions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
Since i am new to the wc club i am wondering, do the tops have to be changed to meet the new impeller specs?
We're awaiting tests to see how the new revision and inlet size effect the pump performance. Everything so far is just speculation :)Quote:
Originally Posted by fotme
So has any of this been confermed or sorted as of yet..any change on the impllers at all or same ones used in the latest rev and models in the range?
I might be getting some 10W version of the latest model and will be modding them to see what they do!
HowTo is now in English.. http://forum.effizienzgurus.de/f23/h....html#overview
maybe it's their underhanded attempt at reducing the effectiveness of aftermarket tops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical_53
but more likely it is just further "tweaking"
Graystar the RAdical+ top performed worse because they made the outlet 1/2" as well which lowers the head to DDC levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
The DDCs original top has the highest head of them all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxis1452
http://site.petrastechshop.com/DDCT-01/maxPressure.jpg
Picture from Petras DDC Top & Pump Performance Comparison
He meant 10W version...
Oh, my bad. Sorry!
So have we any idea yet what the pumps need to say to have the right version for this mod yet
You have no idea what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxis1452
oops forgot to check the graphs but it lowers head significantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graystar
And yes I do. The size of the outlet has very much to do with head as I stated.
You stated the radiical performed worse in the high restriction loop than the stock. If you don't understand that head has very much to do with the outlet sizing then I'm sry but it does. I assumed you understood but did not know that the radiical had simply bored a 1/2" hole for the outlet.
You have no idea what I meant and each time I reread your post you seem more like the idiot here. bigger outlet=less head. You stated that their it is more than the inlet which is correct and it's outlet....:slapass:
edit: I've really got to say that reading through your posts the attitude shown is quite revolting. Personally stop being such an ass. I've seen incredibly experienced people on this forum with 1/4 of the attitude of your posts.
Ignored. There...problem solved.
Takes a mans man to leave well enough alone GrayStar m8! KUDOS!!
Thanks Quazi! :toast:
So has anyone here done the mod, going to . . .? I know of one persno in the uk thats about too and im just about to order my 7 rev2 of the 10W to do it!
There are many people in Germany/Austria who made this mod and the pump runs still perfectly.. :)
There will be also a tutorial how to switch between DDC-1T and DDC-1T Plus while it's running soon..
I seen some fitted a switch on theres. Can that be done or does it go a bit more darker than that dude?
Got 4 for £30 each yesterday and are the new rev 3.3 on the pcb.
Still need to get 3 more asap and then can start to mod them