Hey
I`m curious about using ethylene in autocascade with R507 or other high stage gas. Anyone here on XS made working auto-c with ethylene ? From P/T chart I see, that it needs about -43*C@15bar to condense, with R507 or R402a it could be possible at all, but never seen any auto-c with R1150 :stick:
i believe PC ICE did one a long time ago. all of his threads are either deleted or somehow hidden though...
maybe we could get some of them unlocked by now (the ones that contain usefull information like this).
in the past you could use XR to dig up the old threads, but now that's gone too...
here are a few pics i dug up on Team Puss...
http://www.teampuss.com/runmc/Lanpar...e/DSC07735.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/runmc/Lanpar...e/DSC07752.jpg
http://www.teampuss.com/runmc/Lanpar...compressed.jpg
It was only -80C, but I think that was about the best one at the time...
If i remember correctly, the first stage was actually R134a. Don't quote me on that, it was well over a year ago.
I'm sure it would be possible. Hard, but possible. I rekon lots of sub-cooling would help to condense the R1150.
Luke did you know I,m 100% polish my grandmother(moms side) was 2 when she came to USA with my great grandparents,on my dads side its was my great grandparents that came from Poland.Maybe our blood lines have crossed some where? ;)
Luke in my opinion while you are getting results,way to much is on a dangerous experimental basis. I and I,m sure your girlfriend wouldn't want you hurt.
I personally believe you are trying to progress to fast,chasing that low number and don't have a through understanding of theory and how specialized components work.
I wish you would buy that book I keep recommending and start reading till you have all 1000 pages plus memorized. It will make you a much better builder once you have a much better understanding on how complex refrigeration is,especially cryogenic refrigeration and their controls. I sure hope you take this advice. Anywhere from a 80's edition forward will help you tremendously. The newer the edition the more you will pay. $5.00 to $75.00. It's a college level book but written so it can be understood by high school students,It may even be used in some high schools. Many illustrations to help you understand. :fact: Walt
Speaking to all now,If you want to learn all there is to learn about refrigeration solely from forums and your own experimentation, it will take you well over 100 years or so to catch up to the knowledge published in on "Book"
"Modern refrigeration and air conditioning"
Ah but if I remember correctly when the thread was bumped for load temps, he never posted them. Something tells me it was an unloaded only temperature with no capacity...
As far as condensing r1150 and experimentation, well I agree with wd', when it comes to explosive flammable things, experimentation should not be done but intead thuro research.
But it is possible, but you want more like -60C to condense it ;)
Three stage auto maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
@wdrzal, that book sounds interesting. I think I'll pick up a copy if I can find one somewhere. :)
I don't think an autoc should have stages frankly. Separation just doesnt happen enough to call them stages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
i have the gases, but cant be bothered tring. Personally a small cascade is the way i would be heading. Rotaries beside each other a plate hx
-100c load :toast:
straight gases in each stage.
or 3 compressors r507 r1150 r14.
http://forums.extremeoverclocking.co...1&postcount=57
Noob is correct ,there are other ways to separate heat ,but I made no mention of them on the forum . I have done some experimentation to prove my design but never built a complete unit yet. While I think I can condense r23 in a single stage unit with some modification that is very complex .I don't intend to say anything further until I build a working unit I am sure can be built safely with others. I will Tell you the mod is extremely complex to make and you must have a mill and precision lathe to make the mod, so its out of the DIY end of thing for now and it may never come to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
I think we should stop completely and remove anything over the -100c club membership, As most of these temps are unloaded and we all know mean nothing. I believe even the -100c club should be loaded temps of a agreed ed wattage, say 200 watts.
I apologize to you guy who where given lower club numbers,but I believe they were not only unloaded but dealt out by mods and admin who are not specialist in the cooling Field. And not done with verication and wth completly safe rigs. If XS is going to be the best and most EXTREME ,that has to apply to safety also.Since we are pushing many componates way past there intended use.
Those are my honest feelings............Walt
ps: pushing for a number that means nothing is encouraging some to do it just for the number and not to contribute anything to cpu cooling. Plus they are taking many risks to get a number thats means nothing.
I think the mods and admin should discuss seriously either eliminating the -c clubs or limit them to -c club under 200 watt load verified by majority of senior members that not only the number was reached ,it was done using all safety precaution and built in a safe manner.
Walt
Which brings the question of 200w.
Few of us know that resistor load isn't as "hot" as cartridge heater load. As well as design of load block itself can change the result quite a bit.
-100c should a cascade benching a pc at load. :toast:
too many ppl cooling resitor loads and not pcs :stick:
Nice to hear that wdrzal, you`re the polish man ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
About that book, I would buy it if it`s possible to buy it in poland, maybe you can help me with that and buy it for me, I will pay you and you will send it to me ? Hope it`s possible...
About ethylene, why I`m asking about condensing it in auto-c...the answer is simple, I want to have lower HX temps in my II stage cascade, to condense R14 with reasonable discharge pressures...Cascade is just finished but I`m still want to find a way to condense R14 in other way, safer way for all of us.
R507/R1150 autocascading stage would help me a lot to achieve lower HX temps under load instead of using co2 or R23.
And about membership in -xxx*C club, those words are about me ? that I`m doing "empy" numbers to just join to the stupid clubs ?
I´m sure it was a general statement; people shouldn´t hunt for the lowest temp and forget about safety.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
Your latest cascade, the one for John, will do -100* C loaded right? :)
Anyway good thread, I think it´s a good idea to stop once in a while and ask questions.
I´ll look into it Walt, although I´m learning a lot from this forum, it´s mostly practical info, no real theory. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Yeah, it`s doing -114*C@155W for 1h of testing
I think this is the book that walt means:
for people from the US: http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Refrige...e=UTF8&s=books
a store in germany (ships to Poland as well):
http://www.amazon.de/Refrigeration-C...=books-intl-de
I've tried building an r507/ethylene autocascade but only got -80*C unloaded from it for a short period of time, somehow the balance in the system isn't constant. In 2 weeks I'll try a new setup but it will most likely fail.
@jinu: depends on where you measure. joule=joule the source doesn't matter.
@eschbach: the pc_ice autocascade is in my opinion the biggest crap shown on any forum. And believe me, the topics about it didn't contain usefull info unless your trying to kill yourself.
@luke: hmm I'll give the ethane bottle another try next weekend :D I can't believe I still didn't do it. sorry dude!
you shouldnt try or build anything without knowing the basics! basics in thermodynamics, saftey, equipment handling etc. those saftey statements from walt are boring, but he is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
An autocascade can be the ideal place to condense something like R1150, but I think it would be safer to do so in a multistage/more than 2 stage Auto.
Yes, an auto CAN be separated into it's individual stages, we just have to remember that the separation is not complete in any of the stages in operation. That said, there tend to be defined groups of refrigerants that will condense more effectively in each stage.
ie. A 4 stage Auto. R134a, R22, R23, R1150 (just as an example)
Stage 1 will tend to use some 134a, R22, and a little R23.
Stage 2 will tend to use a little 134a, R22, and a little R23.
Stage 3 will tend to use a little 134a, a little R22, mostly R23, and some R1150.
Stage 4 will tend to use a little R22, some R23, and mostly R1150.
This is all in operation, and after some cooldown in all stages.
Whatever is used to separate the stages that's the kind of operation seen. the more complete the separation the more effective the operation, but there are some amazing Autocascades out there and they've been used for years with a lot higher pressure gasses than R1150.
That's part of why I don't really consider fractionation to be a serious issue in an autocascade as it's being made out to be. You're never going to have a 'pure' gas within a stage. If the gasses (such as 404a or 402a etc) fractionate and still do the job they have to do within a stage, then the system will still work fine. You just have to do a better job of reading your subcooling in every stage after you've added gases. That can tell you where you stand, and what you need to do, alongside your superheat measurements.
Personally I think that a 3-4 stage Auto would be ideal for getting R1150 to work for you. Something like R290, R23, R1150 should work well.
As for changing the -100 club, I'm not sure I see much point. Not that I've really seen it as that big a deal, it's just there's always going to be arguments about how it should be dealt with and that's not really what it's all about.
It's about actually getting to see -100c on a calibrated meter, for real, in person. The safety aspect of it is really important too, as always, but that's not 'the heart' of it. The core of 'the club' is pushing your own limits, stretching yourself to the step of phase design to make a system that can get to -100c.
I hope that doesn't sound like safety shouldn't be taken into account. All I'm saying is that it seems like no one's ever happy with the way things are, and it seems like every once in a while someone pipes in saying that the -100c club doesn't mean anything the way it is. I disagree. I think it means a lot and I'm really proud to be part of it.
I don't know if I see much point in having a -130 or -150 club in addition to it, it just seems silly to be honest.
Being a part of the -100c club is just a designation that you've built a cascade that's worked well enough to get you there. That you've pushed yourself and your skills far enough to make it happen. Is it really worth starting a debate on criteria? I think that focussing on our accomplishments, instead of pointing out our flaws, should be something we keep in mind too.
If a safety aspect is added to the club then I'm all for it. Adding that it has to be under load, or a certain load, or a certain kind of load tester, just makes it that much more likely for people to start saying 'he's cheating' or 'that's not a proper load tester' etc etc and it takes all of the enjoyment out of the project itself.
If that's what is chosen by the majority then that's fine with me, it just seems like there's no real reason to change it. If it get's to the point where the -100c club turns into some nasty thing where people are berated or attacked for how they do things or accusations of cheating or whatever end up being the norm, I don't want any part of it, and you can just take the tag off my avatar right now.
Besides, this is a thread about condensing R14 in a system, not to question someone's results.
Cheers
Gray
I love you Gray :* ( :am: )Thanks for answer, it`s really fully helpfull for me, one more thanks for your opinion :toast:
if you want to condens r14 in an autocascade I would use the following gasses:
r600(a)/r290/r170 or r23/r14
I keep getting surprised at how we keep ignoring the autocascade builder that visited here not too long ago.
Remeber cryotek? Gas was listed simple and straight. R123, R22, R23, R14...
It seems to me you should have at least r22, r23, r14 at your place and R123 is rather cheap refrigerant to give it a shot? (other than fact it comes in DRUM qty at this time... in here in US...)
As for luke, shove it up to 200 or 250w load :P Than see if it is safe. I don't know what ambient temp is like on that cascade but you must expect it to be run at up to 35c ambient temperature (anything more will be too hot to be honest for sane minded bencher) as well as some extreme voltage benchers are likely to put into system :)
-114c at 150w is quite fun to look at no matter if it is resistor or cartridge heater load tester :) But considering idle temp to load temp drop of over 21c for only 150w load makes me think it might have too restrictive 2nd stage dumping more than necessary heat into mixed gas 1st stage. But than, I am wildly guessing with limited information that is displayed here after all :)
jinu, -130*C was just a shot, now with a little bit more gas I`ve got -123*C idle/-114*C loaded, but this doesn`t matter at all now.
I must talk with John, I would go for rebuild I stage and make it working with R22/R23/R1150 or something similar. Then I can test II stage under "hotter" dummy...and results should be better and pressures more reasonable
Sounds good to me :) The -130c was cool shot though P I think lowest I've seen was about -12xc on just regular cascade before tuning commenced..Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
Don't take me wrong Luke, I love your cascades :)
You're 100% right Jin, and it's something I forget a lot too.
R123 isn't easy to find around here, not something used a lot if at all that I've seen so it's a special order item and not cheap either.
It's perfect though, as it evaporates at 'room temp' making it keep things consistent for the low temp gasses to do their job.
When I finally get through the work I have here, I'm really looking forward to getting back to research work again. Autocascades are one thing on my list that I'm pretty weak on and want to improve. Hard to play with these things when you're commited to doing the work.
Cryotek is missed around here. I wish he would have stayed but I also wish he could have been able to give more info on his setups. As is always the case when it's your work, you have to be careful about sharing info that you're not allowed to share :(
Currently though, I'd have to say that Kayl and Luke have had the most success with Auto's that I can think of, and I have a lot of respect for them both because of it. They're the most difficult animals to tame :D and they've both been able to do it.
Gray
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
"Energy can be neither created nor destroyed", first law of thermodynamics.
If you put in 200 watts somehow 200 watts either comes out completely or part gets held my the mass as latent heat, but as 200 watts is feed continuously the latent heat will reaches a maximum for that substance and 200 watts will exit. minus small energy losses in other thermodynamic areas.
I hope everyone knows this... and I am pretty sure everyone does. By same token, if same amount of refrigerant is boiling inside evaporator, evaporator design shouldn't matter at holding same amount of load. Let's get bit more descriptive when we talk about this rather than in pure theory... Sometimes, this simplisitic fundamental talk will just get us no where...Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
My explanation (which I was writing on post and stopped when I thought about that it is about luke's idea of autocascade) was that due to the distance of subjected heat material through multiple medium (thermal interface material, copper, than thermal interface, evaporator) the surface area of such heat produced (resistor will have much less density per say in general due to size, shape of it and method of interface to the copper, and not the perfect world of perfect insulation gives this variances. In fact, at least few of us who used cartridge heater to be superior heating material in such case than typical load resistor being used for load tester. Not to mention safety aspect of it...
Anyways, let's try to keep subject to where it belongs.
In my all honesty, ethylene is bit of off child on autocascading due to some properties it has in my book. I've discussed this before...
#1 is that I don't know full checmical behavoir of gas with some potential other gases in mixture condition. And it can be rather violent gas.
#2 the boiling temp, critical pressure sits where I would consider it somewhat undesirable for effort involved in condensing it in auto cascade. Typical gas like R22 can't really condense it in safety zone. Which brings more exotic gas like R116 or R23 in it. At which point, it almost looks like wasting the system design when R14 becomes next acceptable jump. There might be another pure group of refrigerant that I am missing which can condense ethylene without going for another stage but I don't really think I have seen one yet.
Just my 2c on this matter.
Very few have a clue as to the real applicable law of thermal dynamics (Ever argue with creationists though they are unfairly retarded I guess) but they do give you a good idea how un aware the greater masses are of the basics of physics period, and honestly I can't expect them to bother.
Perhaps here We aut to post a thread and stick it containing basic thermodynamic principles.
And eventually make a set of stickies that one must read and then write a basic test in order to enter riskier forums, such as custom phase.
There is an Idea, and of WCB regs, (Workers Compensation Board) they do with work site safety and have a fairly well layed out protocols for nearly every thing imaginable.
A post with some basic thermo would be good. I think you mean to say sensible heat Walt. I know you know these things but for the benefit of others...Latent heat involves phase change like condensing water liquid from water vapor in air, boiling, evaporation, etc. Sensible heat involves heating a single substance in a single phase. Basically a simple practical way to determine which is which...Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
Latent heating = heat is added, the temperature doesn't change but the composition of the substance changes
Sensible heating = heat is added, and the temperature changes
of course same applies to cooling
Jinu 2 points are right on the money, some are over reaching and don't have the tools and understanding to use these very high pressure & flammable gases safely.
Even in propane a tremendous amount of chemical energy is stored per pound.
Ethylene and gases like r23 r14 and other are only for very advanced builders.
You must not only posses the mechanical skill to build the rig,but the intellectual knowledge and correct tools to work with these gases safely.
In my opinion no matter who you are ,you do not get to that point after only a few builds,or "copys" is more the correct word. AS most are just copying prior builds with slight modifications without completely understanding what will happen.YES you should know in advance what will happen. Enough is known about gases to predict this if you take the time to seek out that knowledge.
I care about every user on this site like my employees or family or best friends. If we allow cowboy refrigeration to be practiced ,it's only a matter of time until a disaster happens.
I,m logging off for 2 days,have doc appointments both days so Jin and Ron look over the place and I want everyone to be alive and un-hurt when I get Back.
I Glad too see at least some are finally starting to see my side of how important rules and regs are for very dangerous gases and what can happen if misused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitAC
Thanks for the correction, I'm the middle of 3 days without sleep thus the doc appointments. my cerebral hard drive needs defragmented. LOL
This is the point even I a very experienced person can make a error.that one didn't cost anyone there life, but using very dangerous gases without safety precautions just might.
Glad your here detroitAC to help out.
I'm the guy talking to Ab Lincoln and the ground hog every night ;)
Offcourse I remember cryotek, but because he works with those gasses doesn't mean it only works with those gasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinu117
the thermodynamics basics aren't that hard. everything above basics is pretty hard and you need some serious understanding of calculus and mechanics before you start with it.
Absoultely. But before we go into number crunching, everything is in understanding of concept and applicable mathamtical representation of such model. I happen to be very well versed and educated in general physics and mathematics (even in highschool years... now more than a decade ago lol), I held few state championships on mathmatics and physics competition that existed back than :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Unknown_road
Still, unless I take full course (not talking about job training ones you see but more academic master's degree side of thermodynamics and chemistry), and have team of such people working together, figuring out inner working of such thing as autocascade will still be more of gut feeling, extrapolation based on knowledge gained through experimentation, and some ingenuity to get there. (even if you do have such massive resources, it seems to me autocascade seems to be still bit of black magic discussing with cryotek while back)
Maybe you did not read my post after the one you have quoted but I clearly mentioned that from where I stand I don't see advantage of ethylene in auto cascade system due to it's hard to condense nature from single pure gas. I didn't say it will not work, I said that it will be impractical for doing so even if it works when there are better candidate such as R14 when intermediary gas like R23 or R116 gets involved. You can search US patent and find few mixture used in autocascade. You might have to pay to look at some specifies such as drawing or equation they used but it is rather cheap (think it was less than $20 per copy). In fact, there are some designs patented using none of the to be banned list of gas... (which I think includes R-23, R-22) All I am saying is, I really don't see ethylene as the most appropirate gas for autocascade for above mentioned reasons I see.
Maybe Co2 can act as intermediary for the mix which might work, the only thing is do ANY of us have any idea how CO2 and Ethylene behaves under pressure and high temp not to mention danger of CO2 having good chance of icing up blocking the line and just increasing way too high pressure on gas we don't want to see exploding ever...
Just more thoughts...
And recall chem CO2 can decompose under certain conditions and release oxygen if some thing ells wants it more then the CO1 Molicul. Heat, pressure, turbulance, all the ideal conditions for such a thing to occure.
I personally didn't believe cryotec when I read his threads he never answer direct questions and was vague on the rest. all we got was some blurry pic of a bunch a junk in a box. I wish some would find the autocasade with the pink insulation around it.I believe from what Iwas told that it got to -80c r23 territory. This is the first time I dissed someone seriously like now. but all he did was post old autocascade drawings . his work that was pictured was far from pro. and all he was doing was doing to the moderator here who owns a polycold was adding argon to the professional built polycold to get low temps with no load in my opinion. I called Bull,sh*t in the thread and still stand by it till proven otherwise,then I will apologize if proven wrong.....I could go on to explain more of what I know about his work but I'll stop here.
cryotec is welcome to come back and teach you all how to build the -150 autocasde he was credited for but never shown.or the possible -180 iirc he mentioned. he disappeared when me and other older members kept asking for pictures and answers to specific questions. don't count those post as valid. until proven and backed by pictures.
people tried this before I think the user I'm thinking of it was his second time, remember the guy with the blurry boxes of stuff he claimed was advanced cooling items,until un-known to him FUGGER worked at pictographics and could enlarge the blurry pictures and clear them to show a bunch of junk in the basement.Is that thread also still around.
science its not so until it can be reproduced and verified independently
In simple terms co2 is not a good gas because it can skip the liquid state.and pumping dry ice(a solid) is hard to do.
Sorry Luke we really hijacked your thread. probably deserve it :slapass:
I'm pretty sure Jinu can attest to Cryo-tek's truthiness. Your posting in the same way that anyone could go "I count all of wd's post as bullsh** as I've never seen him post a picture or truly answer questions as direct as I'd like to see them directly posted."
As far as regassing a polycold, the unit DID NOT have a polycold mix of gases in it upon receiving.
sometime you can be made to beleive what is not true,because you your self don't know the truth.
I never posted a picture because I never built a rig to phase cool cpu's yet.
you don't have to beleive what I say either ,I can't force anyone.
well walt, you should be the 1st person happy that cryotek didnt show clear pictures and teached everybody how to build an -180 autoc... its is VERY DANGEROUS for some1 with no experience at all to handle this gases !
as steph told us by that time, cryo didnt know very well his way about computers, i believe he teached him how to post pictures
and steph polycold had a wrong mix of gases from previous regassing from chilly i believe, so he did regase it...
I believe he added argon to get the temp posted. plus a few others. its been 25 years since the polycold was developed the mix is not a secret among major refrigeration & A/C manufactures and engineers. It runs @ 400 psi its not the mix but how its separated and used is the bigger secret.
400psi high side? Not in the case of modification for computer usage. Also the r740/r14 mixing does infact help with load temperatures. You disclaim Cryo-tek and others without posting anything other than what you say and what you say has been going on for 25 years.
I welcome your talks in safety wd, but not in thread jacking.
it runs at 400psi with original evap walt
When r14 is a liquid, argon seeps into the liquid, sort of like adding noodles to soup, its still a liquid, just better. I do not know why it does it, but it seems to be something added to almost every r14 mix that I've found in patent information.
That's one special blend, r14 with argon. When Cryo added the argon, suctionpressure rose and evap temp lowered.
Which seems bizarre to me...
but I don't know everything :D
I never understood it myself but it does not actualy just provide idle's.
So what, I should buy some argon ? ;]
Ya you should! :D :P
Adding second "mapp bottle" for ex-tank should be good idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
Very interesting discussion, don't stop guys :toast:
I would try it! :) cryo was(is a rly expert in autocascades and all this stuff ... I think / hope (:D) the he knows what he does/did! :)
Argon gave him a quite better temp than without it! Of course no sinle nanogrmm will/can condense at these R14-temps, but nevertheless it helps keeping the temp low! :D
So I would try it! :)
But as MaSell said .... don't forget to plan in some or one rly big expansion tank! :) ... + safety valve and/or pressure switch! I will do so too in my auto-c! ^^ :)
what gases would yeild the lowest temps, While still being safe to use then?
what do you look for in a gas?
It depends on unit, for autocascade R23 is really safe and it has low boiling temp (-82).
For cascade the best refrigerant is ethylene (-103*C)
BTW, I changed thread title, hope it`s "on place" ;)
We had one! ;) :( ... Anyone knows where he went (cryo-tek)??Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
Some other members, who are pretty easy to notice, scared him away.
since when is asking questions scaring away. He didn't give 1 answer when questions became a little harder then standard refrigeration questions, he just didn't know. When he tried to explain it, it was wrong. pretty logical that some people found that a weird caracteristic for an "expert". The fact that he could fill up an autocascade was more routine then knowledge I think. This doesn't mean I have a problem with cryo (can't blame him for not knowing something) but I'm getting tired of fanboy'ism.Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b 0f l337
dont bother trying argon on ethilene, it doesnt work
just swapped the oil sep on my cascade, will try adding r14 to ethilene, with the slhx it should give some result
Hahaha did someone say 740 + 1150? Missed it then, yeah that won't help, only works with r14 as far as I know.
r23 has a vapor pressure of 686psi @ 25 c. thats beyond most standard refrigeration components design pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeXE
Not safe
But nobody normal won`t use R23 in normal SS stage, in cascade or auto-c R23 is very easy to condense...and for cascade it`s safe, more safe than CO2 :fact:Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
what conditions would have to arise for that amount of pressure to build though?Quote:
Originally Posted by wdrzal
i mean, I've run the second stage of my R1150 cascade without the first stage running when I was trying to push oil out of the evap, and the pressure went up to like ~460psi and sat there... there wasn't enough restriction in the system for the compressor to build any more pressure...
i'm not saying we can ignore pressures high pressures, that would be a terrible suggestion, but realistically, a reasonably well-built unit with R23 (cascade or auto-c) is not going to get anywhere near 600 psi...
...or even 250-300PSI when running with load. R23 doesn`t need super low temps to condense (about -20@15bar), so too high discharge pressure is just...impossible !Quote:
Originally Posted by eshbach
I'm not saying anyone should ever run with that kind of pressure, as that's probably too dangerous and too close to the limit of the components. I was just using it as an example of "worst case scenario" for one of our units... an R1150 system with 1/2 hp compressors running with NO first stage. That's basically the worst thing that could happen, as far as I can tell. The only thing that would have made it worse would have been a bigger compressor. But even in my situation, nothing bad happened, none of my pipes ballooned, my oil sep (which was home made) is fine, and my cascade still works.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
In normal use, the worst thing that could happen would be the first stage compressor failing, but even then the heat exchanger is already cold and the pressure would build slowly enough for the user to turn off the system before it got to dangerous levels (if it even could get to dangerous levels... as you said, it depends on the size of the compressor, the volume of gas, and the restriction of the system).
That doesn't mean you can be careless, of course. If you don't follow safety procedures when building or charging the system, then all bets are off. an incorrectly built system can definately be dangerous...
how is r170 lower vapor pressure than r23, higer latent heat of vaporization and lower boiling point.
Tom, you`re writing about me ?Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
Safety "valve" whit destroyable Cu membrane (one membrane, one use) is wery small and cheap ;)
2$ for membrane, and 5-6$ for it's housing. Every CO2 bottle is equipped whit such safety "valve". It's very interesting to see CO2 bottle when safety "valve" fire away entire bottle in 30 seconds (summer at +40C in shade) :D
Safety first!!!
Sorry for my bad english :(
I don't disagree with you, I would never reccommend my foolish methods to anyone... I probably should have found another way to illustrate my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoddemFX
:p
I tried today R290/CO2/R1150 with small 6800btu rotary compressor, small main HX + small hx before phase separator.
My results so far (unloaded, tomorrow loaded temps):
-87,4*C @ + 0,1bar suction // 11bar discharge
Can`t go lower, with deep vacuum I can hit -100*C without problems, but then it won`t hold any load. Hmmm, must find way to have at least -95*C@0bar autocascading.
Eh I think you need to add another stage. The more stages, if the compressor can provide the mass flow, the better your efficiency. 0 bar autocascading low side won't happen though.
Eh, tried with more stages, but I had worse results. Fu*king circle...
tomorrow I will test it under load, i`ve got 160W dummy, -70C will make smile on my face.
loose teh co2, get some r23
and you need a high boiler
Isobutanes amazing and easy to get.
I will buy some izobutane for tests.
I've read through this to learn as much as I could. But I would really like to know what was the end result of the testing. What I have learned, is to investigate the use of R-14 for my own project.
Shingoshi
I believe jinu117 disappeared with several unfulfilled orders only to come back with some sad story and subsequently disappear again.Quote:
But I would really like to know what was the end result
LukeXE took many thousands of Euros from various people around the globe, he then produced for them goods ranging from "thin air" to the mangled wreckage from an automobile accident.
n00b_0f_l33t did much the same on a smaller scale, although generated proportionally more bullsh*t along the way.
I have received emails from two people asking if i knew the whereabouts of Gray Mole and another from a poor old chap who had paid in advance for a system from Blaster.
chilly1 shows up on these forums every now and again, even after 3+ years he still owes ten of thousands of dollars to members of the extreme community.
But why am i telling you this Shingoshi? :confused:
It is because the vapour compression cooling forum on xtremesystems has for many years been plagued by bullsh*tters and con artists. The management of the cooling forums has demonstrated time and time again that it is unable to police the forum for the benefit of the community, as many of people mentioned above have held positions of Administrator, Moderator or XIP.
As a reflex action, the knowledgeable members that are left have become wary to anyone smelling slightly more "fruity" than normal.
Believe it or not, 2 - 3 years ago this forums was the de-facto vapour CPU compression cooling forum with a highly active very close knit sub-community.
I hope you have enjoyed our history lesson today - history is a very important subject because by studying the past you can predict the future.
Tom
http://www.thequietrevolution.ca/quiet/ThreadNecro.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
why the hell was a pm not satisfactory
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shingoshi
+1 Tyber :up:
PLUS...
[quote] Now ya see here son, this is what we call a dead thread, it died as no one was interested or no one had info for it, or the authore found the info and decided to let the thread die.
So we burried it, gave it a funeral and let it lie in piece.
Now what ya have don here is Necrothreaded it back into the living realm disturbing its grave and its peace! Why boy
why? The poor thread has suffered enough! Let it rest!! [end:quote]