Rapty's Vapo LS mod by Johann

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10-18-2006, 06:37 AM
johann

Rapty's Vapo LS mod by Johann

These days I dont really post mods here anymore but Rapty asked me to post progress of mod so here it is.

Rapty asked for a more silent and powerfull machine for his conroe.

As you all know the obvious first thing to do is change compressor to NL11F. The stock LS compressor is noisy and not too powerfull. I still dont know why Asetek uses this compressor. NL11F on the other hand is nice and smooth and alot more powerfull.

Next is a bigger condensor to handle the little bigger heatload from compressor and CPU and enable rapty to run fans at reasonable setting instead of full.

Lastly a new evap lineset (Dimas v 4.1) I like the Dimas evap kit. Performance is good and mounting options good also. I added a accumulator as usual these days because Im not a fan of floodback and I like to make the captube around 2-3 inches shorter for the little warmer Conroe chips.

Captube is 2.7m 0.031 on this one.

Last time I had a stock LS on my loadtester at 150w I saw around -20c to -25c or so. After the mods I expect to see a load temp of around -42c to -45c so I would guess around 15-20c increase with less noise

Some pics:

Original unit as I received it:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...d/IMG_0533.jpg

Replacement parts:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...d/IMG_0537.jpg

ADDED:

Step 1:

Vapo removed. At least the controller, 2 fans and LCD screen remain :D. I believe the warranty is now void :p:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...d/IMG_0539.jpg
10-18-2006, 07:38 AM
|RickY|

only use the box and controler? :D

well i like condensor and evap from vapochill ls. i only change compressor on vapochill ls.
10-18-2006, 07:45 AM
johann

Sure Ricky, the evap is not bad atall. I like it also but mounting kits are expensive. The LGA 775 kit cost almost the same price as a new custom evap kit.

Condensor also its not bad atall but with R402a you need full speed fans on that condensor. You can add desuperheater but I prefer not too. I rather replace condensor with bigger one and leave desuperheater. The condensor is not that expensive either so while busy modding I think its worth spending little more for condensor especially if customer ask for silent unit.
10-18-2006, 02:34 PM
Brettbeck

Im sure this unit will work far better once you've finished with it Johann!

Good work so far :) !
10-19-2006, 01:16 AM
johann

Ready for vacuum.

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...d/IMG_0544.jpg
10-19-2006, 02:39 AM
El Snorro

nice unit!
Dimas evap is looking good :)
10-19-2006, 02:49 AM
kayl

hey nice going, 100% flex line is nice option.
is that a accumulator or a drier?
i always wanted to tryone and see if could be used as a replacement?
10-19-2006, 03:02 AM
Duniek

johann - as always good work but
flex line isn't too short?:rolleyes:
what is inside construction of suction acumulator?
10-19-2006, 03:11 AM
esdee

aaaaarg! whyyyyyy did you replaced the stock Vapo condenser? its sooo perfect for such systems! :D
10-19-2006, 03:20 AM
johann

Hey Kayl,

Its an accumulator, basically its empty there is nothing inside but provide the volume needed when using short suctionline or little shorter captube.

Suctionline looks short but its the same length as the original vapo, even 1 or 2 inches longer. I made flex all the way, it gives you around 10cm adjustment of suctionline length if needed. You can push it back in or pull it up if needed.
10-19-2006, 04:07 AM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by esdee

aaaaarg! whyyyyyy did you replaced the stock Vapo condenser? its sooo perfect for such systems! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by johann

Condensor also its not bad atall but with R402a you need full speed fans on that condensor. You can add desuperheater but I prefer not too. I rather replace condensor with bigger one and leave desuperheater. The condensor is not that expensive either so while busy modding I think its worth spending little more for condensor especially if customer ask for silent unit.

:rolleyes:
10-19-2006, 04:10 AM
johann

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett

:rolleyes:

exactly
10-19-2006, 04:24 AM
Nosfer@tu

Nice work.

Now blow somthing up and throw the temps at us :D

EDIT:
Love your pre tempreture testing :D
Gives a REALLY god view of your work ;)

taken from Mouawad's Vapo LS Modded by Johann

"125w -25c
150w -20c
185w -14c

I have to say I was not impressed with the performance of the stock LS atall.

Results after Mods:

125w -47c
150w -44c
185w -40c"
10-19-2006, 04:32 AM
|RickY|

Quote:

Originally Posted by johann

Ready for vacuum.

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...d/IMG_0544.jpg

ok, i understand your point :)

are you sure the condensor you use are better than vapochill ls? on pic it seems to have less pipes, less superface less area of contact
10-19-2006, 04:52 AM
jinu117

AFAIK, the condenser uses rifled tubing with properly sized fin space for fan speed we use. Also, from what I see finned area is larger than that of mach or vapo's condenser.
Numeric data I got from someone at least tells me it's hugely better.. but I haven't STILL gotten my samples yet. Knock knock.
Looking good as usual Johann :)
10-19-2006, 08:55 AM
LittleDevil

Good looking, shoe us some temps :P

thanks
10-19-2006, 09:04 AM
esdee

Quote:

Originally Posted by |RickY|

ok, i understand your point :)

are you sure the condensor you use are better than vapochill ls? on pic it seems to have less pipes, less superface less area of contact

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinu117

AFAIK, the condenser uses rifled tubing with properly sized fin space for fan speed we use. Also, from what I see finned area is larger than that of mach or vapo's condenser.
Numeric data I got from someone at least tells me it's hugely better.. but I haven't STILL gotten my samples yet. Knock knock.
Looking good as usual Johann :)

+ the original has 1/4" tubes ... i still can't find any condenser on HVAC shops with 1/4" and not 3/8 tubing!
10-19-2006, 01:06 PM
pazza316

I have done the same mod using that condensor and a chilly1 head. Yes the condensor is much better with lower discharge temps and pressures compared to the stock condensor evan if you have implimented a desupereheater. This does not translate into a massive improvement in temps when loaded but the compressor runs cooler and the pressures are lower which means if you wish you can run the fans at lower speeds which we all love!!
10-19-2006, 01:08 PM
pazza316

Hey Johann whats the vibration like on the unit? I put a coil around 2ft long before the condensor to help with vibration from the compressor.
10-19-2006, 04:30 PM
Dimas

nice work, and nice condensor too;)

OT: hi,Pazza...i send you lot of pm/mails, time and patience are on they way to finish...
10-19-2006, 09:39 PM
johann

Ian, vibration is not bad atall, I think most of it gets absorbed by the rubber compressor feet. Sure some of it gets absorbed by the condensor but it is mounted on a 6mm foam gasket which helps,

Unit is on the bench now but I will post more pics and temps soon.

Initial charge show same temps as always with this setup, around the -44c mark with 150w, idle around -58c.
10-19-2006, 09:45 PM
jinu117

Quote:

Originally Posted by esdee

+ the original has 1/4" tubes ... i still can't find any condenser on HVAC shops with 1/4" and not 3/8 tubing!

Reason is quite simple :) The condensers are custom ordered. Even my condensers are custom designed and produced. It's pretty expensive till you can get your qty well above 100 a set nor anyone take you seriously enough. I have next 200+ with some design change that is coming in sometime... -_-; You really need to push volume or price won't buckle much. I might go look different supplier on next run as I am not too happy with the company's promptness. Quality is top notch but I really have hard time dealing with them for simplest thing in world and pricing is only so so for ordering 200+ pieces.
10-19-2006, 10:11 PM
wdrzal

Is that a vapor(suction line) filter where you have the cap tube wrapped around??

One trick to gain sub cooling,thus efficiency, is to soft solder the cap tube to the copper line and filter,you will get much better heat transfer. Just use a low temp solder like 50/50, clean parts well and flux. I like a flux for soft solder called no-lox. Some fluxes will turn the copper green if you don't clean the remainder off.you won't be able to soft solder to the ss line.

This is done on a lot of fridges right from the factory.

Great looking rig !!!:toast: :toast: :toast:
10-19-2006, 11:26 PM
LukeXE

Nice work Johann, as always !
10-20-2006, 01:27 AM
Brettbeck

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

Is that a vapor(suction line) filter where you have the cap tube wrapped around??

I think you mean the suction line accumulator?
10-20-2006, 02:47 AM
johann

Yes Good point there Walt about the soft solder, do you mean the plumbing type solder?

One thing I do these days to improve subcooling a little is the heatshrink on the last part of the ss before the evap, most of captube is coiled in that area and it pulls it nice an tigth there.

This unit is tuned and ready, Im really happy with the way its running, compressor temps is good, pressures and temps good also so I wont dissasemble now for the soldering of captube.

Lastly, you ask about the accumulator, its not a filter its only an empty shell that privides a little volume there that is really needed because the suctionline is shortish and the captube a few inches shorter than usual. I can give little more refrigerant there without too much worry about liquid return. I have frost all the way back to the end of the accumulator on idle and if it was not there I would have had liquid returning. The bit of wrapped captubing around the accumulator also helps with evaporation there.

Too all the rest of comments, always appreciated :D
10-20-2006, 03:35 AM
wdrzal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brett

I think you mean the suction line accumulator?

A suction line accumulator has a J tube with a orifice in it to return oil, they are mounted vertically.

That looks like a filter/dryer to me.

yes low temp plumbing solder 50/50 lead/tin even that you can't use that mix for plumbing anymore, it will work great for this application.
10-20-2006, 05:31 AM
johann

Quote:

Originally Posted by wdrzal

A suction line accumulator has a J tube with a orifice in it to return oil, they are mounted vertically.

That looks like a filter/dryer to me.

yes low temp plumbing solder 50/50 lead/tin even that you can't use that mix for plumbing anymore, it will work great for this application.

Walt, the accumulator is empty inside so in essence I large diameter tube not a suction accumulator
10-20-2006, 07:04 AM
pazza316

@Dimas you have PM !!! Sorry mate I missed your message!
10-20-2006, 07:44 AM
Nosfer@tu

Johann.

will you post temp just like you did ,where I qouted you in #13 ?

Or is that a inacruate way of explaining? :)
10-20-2006, 08:46 AM
johann

I will when it is completely finished but I never test this vapo before mods. I believe it will be same as all other standard vapo's.
10-20-2006, 10:50 AM
rapty

Thanks Johan for posting the progress of the Mod Ill message you when Im ready for the Unit
10-20-2006, 11:47 AM
jinu117

Actually Walt, there are things called spun suction line accumulator. Not as controllered as typical one but they WERE used by major company like GE. (well GE stopped using them thus impossible to find good sized one in US... Parker used to make them and still have it on their website ... only problem was... they didn't want to make it even for hundreds I asked ... :P)
10-20-2006, 12:02 PM
Gray Mole

That's really strange Jin, I can buy 'em here with no problem. They're cheap and plentiful.

It's just 90% of them are just hollow, which isn't really ideal.

If you get the slightly oversize 1/2" ones though, you can insert the 3/8" tubes to opposite ends, which makes the 'swirl' a little more effective.

The same can be done with a piece of 7/8" tubing though it's not quite as pretty, the accumulator is hidden under insulation and it's no less effective as a premade one, possibly more if it's just a hollow can.

Nice mod Johann btw :) I'm interested in the performance with that condensor as it just doesn't look like it 'should' have the same capacity, but it's been working well for those who use it.

If you could measure the subcooling using it, and low speed fans, both idle and load, it would be very interesting and informative :)

Oh, and I split up a mach condensor for a desuperheater for Melted's new unit, and they actually rifle the pipes on those too :eek: but the performance is still just 'ok' (not his unit, but mach/vapo condensors in general :D ) Seems like it's the whole 'package' on a condensor, fin density, pipe layout, the works that makes a condensor work well.

Gray
10-21-2006, 06:31 AM
dominick32

Quote:

Originally Posted by johann

Can anyone tell me how to start this unit up with the chillcontroll connected.

Mods before I simply replaced the cooling unit and sent it back but this time I asked Rapty to include the chillcontrol so I can test the machine propperly.

At the moment I have the two wires from the unit connected as per the manual. LCD and the second one.

When I give power to the unit the LCD comes on "Vapochill Ligthspeed by Asetek inc" When i press the power button for "longer than a second" as the manual say nothing happens, LCD remains the same.

I have the molex connected and but dont have the USB connected because Rapty did not send the cable.

How do I get it to start cooling?

First off, you need to jumper the actual PSU to make sure it is running and supplying voltage to the chillcontrol board. Than jump the chill control unit which should trigger startup on the Vapo.

With the powersupply turned off, you will not have the juice to start up the vapo.
EDIT* Why did you delete your last post?
10-21-2006, 02:34 PM
johann

I figured it out so was no real need. Thanks
10-24-2006, 11:42 AM
rapty

Any updates on loads Johann
10-25-2006, 08:20 AM
KarenM

Very very nice Johann, I am proud to say that the guy build and mod that stunning units, is MINE!!! Nicely done!!
10-25-2006, 08:26 AM
johann

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenM

Very very nice Johann, I am proud to say that the guy build and mod that stunning units, is MINE!!! Nicely done!!

My Fiance :D....

Anyways I have completed a series of load testing with my nice new variable cartridge heater Load tester with thanks to Jinu117 who made it.

1st of all, The temps from this tester cannot be compared to temps from previous load tests. This one seems to be hotter as its built in a more efficient way, across the board around 2-3c hotter than my old one.

At first the temps on lower (150w) does nto seem impressive, its around 2-3c less than other NL11F units of mine but as I said before, this machine was set up to handle load, I loose 2or3c around the 150w mark but give this machine some serious load and it becmoes seriously impressive.

I was amazed, around the 150w-200w load mark this machine EATS load. I decided to go for 225w and the the max i can give the tester which is 237w and it stil EATS load.

This temps is constantly holding load, not a few minutes, at least 30 minutes at a time

Heres the shots:

Idling on the tester:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...idletester.jpg

150w:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...20mod/150w.jpg

185w:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...20mod/185w.jpg

200w:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...20mod/200w.jpg

237w:

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...20mod/237w.jpg
10-25-2006, 08:55 AM
LittleDevil

Nice temps for sure ;) Show us complete unit.

thanks
10-25-2006, 09:10 AM
Raja@ASUS

Nice work bro', as always. I see Karen made it online too, now that's unique, a couple on the same forum and thread. Welcome to XS karen...
10-25-2006, 09:23 AM
Tekdemon

lol you changed almost everything...I don't know if that counts as a mod or simply a build ;)
10-27-2006, 12:18 AM
johann

hehe for sure, from the outside it looks like a vapo LS still :D

Here is a few of the last pics I took, I dont have the panels for it so its just some shots of the open unit.

On Idle I see around -66c on the vapo display, sometimes just jumps to -69c. The Vapo chillcontroll on this one is about 6c colder on idle but reasonbaly accurate below -50c and below -40c pretty much the same temp as my meter. Not as bad as Mach controllers for sure.

Idle temp without the head attached to load tester on vapo LCD and my thermometer

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...0ls%20temp.jpg

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...20mod/idle.jpg

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...ide%20shot.jpg

http://emerald.srv2.com/~sokkiesc/Fo...top%20shot.jpg
10-27-2006, 12:40 AM
Nosfer@tu

You have 2 pictures at almost the same wattage.

209 watt and 217 watts :)

Think you are missing 150Watt load :)
10-27-2006, 01:01 AM
johann

Sorry I did not explain, that is voltage on the multimeter not wattage. The Heat cartridge has a resistance of 237 Ohms.

You can see the variable transformer on the background
10-27-2006, 01:12 AM
Nosfer@tu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosfer@tu

Nice work.

Now blow somthing up and throw the temps at us :D

EDIT:
Love your pre tempreture testing :D
Gives a REALLY god view of your work ;)

taken from Mouawad's Vapo LS Modded by Johann

"125w -25c
150w -20c
185w -14c

I have to say I was not impressed with the performance of the stock LS atall.

Results after Mods:

125w -47c
150w -44c
185w -40c"

Just to make it more easy to see :)
150w -40.5c
185w -36.6c
200w -35.0c
237w -24.6c
10-27-2006, 01:16 AM
johann

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosfer@tu

Just to make it more easy to see :)
150w -40.5c
185w -36.6c
200w -35.0c
237w -24.6c

Sure but temps cannot be compared to above unit, I used a resistor load tester there which seemed to loose more heat along the way.
10-30-2006, 08:57 AM
rapty

Why is Mouwads Insulation cleaner Johann
10-30-2006, 09:53 AM
pazza316

Rapty you need to compare the set ups of the suction and flex lines on both units before stating one is cleaner than another. I have modded over 30 LS in my time and each one is slightly different. In this case they are very different. One is a Dimas Head the other is not one uses large bore flex hose the other does not and finally and most importantly one uses an accumalator the other does not. You are therefore comparing two totally different things.

The accumalator especially is hard to insualte as it is not the same size as insulation available so you have to fabricate your own if you wish to fit it in the limited dimensions of the vapo case. I use those accumalators regularly its not an easy job. I think the insulation job done here is good work as is the rest of the unit.

I believe the performance of the unit to be equal to any custom builder on here using straight R402a refrigerant and Nl11F including myself. You should be greatful for what a great unit Johann has produced. I see no reference to excellent unit Johann here!
10-30-2006, 10:12 AM
johann

It is true what Pazza316 say, its quite hard to insulate that setup mostly due to Flexline all the way instead of solid copper until case exit.

The advantage of having a the line this way is that it is more versatile and can be pulled up or pushed back sligthly to make an easier fit on the socket since the new flexline is less flexible than the stock line and the evap assembly is alot bigger.

Another reason why Mouawad's may look cleaner is the drier position and the fact that the drier is polished. This machines drier sits behind the insulation hence no point in me trying to get in there with sandpaper and brasso.

I actually thougth the insulation job was great, next time just pop me a PM if there is something you are not happy about then I will do what I can.

In the end there is sidepanels on this machine so personally insulation looks did not come up as the 1st priority.

1st priority for me was spending a week tuning/adjusting/leaktesting this machine to produce the temps it delivers reliably while keeping the appearance good and neat.

If you want the insulation job redone then I will try my best to do it to your liking.
10-30-2006, 11:48 PM
rapty

Thank you for jumping to Johanns defense Pazza, the reason the Unit was sent to Johann is he does great clean work of all setups as Ive told him before, I have no quarms about the Unit only a observation on my unit I appologise if that offends you but I am only commenting on my observation

Johann great work Ill send you a PM in the following days

How was the CPU?

rapty
10-31-2006, 01:34 AM
johann

Quote:

Originally Posted by rapty

Thank you for jumping to Johanns defense Pazza, the reason the Unit was sent to Johann is he does great clean work of all setups as Ive told him before, I have no quarms about the Unit only a observation on my unit I appologise if that offends you but I am only commenting on my observation

Johann great work Ill send you a PM in the following days

How was the CPU?

rapty

Hey Rapty, thanks I hope I explained it OK. No offense taken. I think also Mouawads machine looks cleaner because its got the panels on and dont look so "bare"

The day after I got your CPU, OPB told me about a nice 6700ES and said he would ship it to me for a nice price together with soime Team group RAM so unfortunately the CPU never saw much uptime.

The funniest thing is I have a stock intel cooler lmao. People wont believe but I have never had a phase cooled PC :p: I had some xeons which would not have been practical to put phase on them. Now that I have the conroe I dont have time to build a phase for it. I have couple units to go out and when my bench is empty then I can start on that one.

When Kentsfield is out this machine will love it :cool:

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