What has Asus done?? CAS4 vs CAS3 on P5B Deluxe!

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10-04-2006, 10:55 AM
metro.cl

What has Asus done?? CAS4 vs CAS3 on P5B Deluxe!

Well Bachus told me to do some testing cas 3 vs cas4, couse some weirdness is going on asus p5b deluxe, also noticed this last night running pi.

Here are the resutls:

SP8M 3-3-3-8 PC 6400 boot from bios memset as CAS4 (all precharge to activate, CS· to MCH-ODT latency and all precharge refresh were modified with memset all other are from bios)

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5...tascas4vn4.jpg

SP8M 4-4-4-8 PC 6400 boot from bios

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3...4pc6400kd3.jpg

SP8M 5-5-5-5-8 PC 6400 boot from bios memset as CAS4 (all precharge to activate, CS· to MCH-ODT latency and all precharge refresh were modified with memset all other are from bios)

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7...tascas4dy3.jpg

So 11 seconds better CAS4 over CAS 3 :stick: and CAS5 is 8 seconds better than CAS3 double :stick:

Any ideas? a way to fix this? normal?
10-04-2006, 11:02 AM
Rol-Co

yep normal, boot 398 c3 and clockgen to 400, run again
10-04-2006, 11:03 AM
Vikodemous

http://www.orrp.com/smf/Smileys/orrp/1-picture6.gif

How? Who? What? :confused:

Have you tried 1M and 32M? I'm wondering what the difference there would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rol-Co

yep normal, boot 398 c3 and clockgen to 400, run again

So this has to do with the Boot strap issue. wow
10-04-2006, 11:05 AM
macci

How would CL5-5-5 compare there?

The subtimings probably dont have huge impact but would it be possible to set them to identical values also?
10-04-2006, 11:10 AM
metro.cl

Quote:

Originally Posted by macci

How would CL5-5-5 compare there?

The subtimings probably dont have huge impact but would it be possible to set them to identical values also?

hehehe will try that also, im testing boot at 398 clockgen to 400 but seems to be the same no diference for CAS3

regards
10-04-2006, 11:13 AM
bachus_anonym

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rol-Co

yep normal, boot 398 c3 and clockgen to 400, run again

Nope, not really normal. This has started after BIOS 0507 (when 4:5 ratio has been somewhat fixed) and boot @ 398 and clockgen to 400 does not do it. Besides, it's not 398MHz where strap seems to change but 401 ;) BIOS 0507 does not have this problem and CAS3 is indeed a bit faster than CAS4, compared to any other later BIOS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by macci

The subtimings probably dont have huge impact but would it be possible to set them to identical values also?

I think both are identical. Three settings that change according to Memset, are the ones that cannot be set in BIOS. They change with CAS change and are identical on every BIOS I've tried.
10-04-2006, 11:36 AM
metro.cl

ok set everything the same for cas3, cas4 and cas5, the 3 settings that changed (all precharge to activate, CS· to MCH-ODT latency and all precharge refresh) were modified in windows with memset so i cant be sure that they are correctly set or windows gets fooled , all other setting are from bios

cas5 is even better than cas3 that is really bad :(
10-04-2006, 12:15 PM
Fr3ak

Do you think its worth trying to get a Asus engeneer comment on this subject? If they dont know why its acting like that, nobody knows...
I dont know if I can run cl3 at all, but I will give it a try tomorrow.
10-04-2006, 12:30 PM
Holst

Will WPCRedit work on these boards?

Or am a just 2 years behind the times?
10-04-2006, 04:39 PM
erwinz

woah :confused: wtf :nono:
10-04-2006, 05:07 PM
metro.cl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fr3ak

Do you think its worth trying to get a Asus engeneer comment on this subject? If they dont know why its acting like that, nobody knows...
I dont know if I can run cl3 at all, but I will give it a try tomorrow.

dunno mate but would be interesting to have ram working at cas3 on ddr2 mostly because i can get mine at 440 cas3 and at that level performnce sucks.

Also many engeneer from other companies are working to get good ram with CAS3 so we should be able to use it
10-04-2006, 06:43 PM
ozzimark

try 4-3-3, just for kicks
10-04-2006, 11:59 PM
MusicIsMyLife

I had a performancedrop from running 4-4-4-12 to 3-3-3-8 of ~1 minute in superpi 32m.

E6400 (350x 8)
P5B dlx (bios 0405)
2x 1gb SuperTalent 800 @ 350

Unfortunately I didn´t test 4-3-3-8.
10-05-2006, 12:20 AM
Tulatin

Actually, this was a bug i noticed on the P5WD2-E Prem too; when set to CAS 3 @ 800, ram would have a bit of a bandwidth disadvantage to CAS 4; odd, eh?
10-05-2006, 12:39 AM
ArcTan

I thought it was just my board?

My 32M runs are about 1min longer running with 3-3-3-8 vs 4-4-4-8 as well
10-05-2006, 01:11 AM
Giana

Omg :D
10-05-2006, 12:59 PM
toledo

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcTan

I thought it was just my board?

My 32M runs are about 1min longer running with 3-3-3-8 vs 4-4-4-8 as well

OMG :D .

Have you tried 4-4-4-8 vs 4-3-3-8 ? Has anybody tried that ?
10-05-2006, 01:06 PM
ozzimark

Quote:

Originally Posted by toledo

OMG :D .

Have you tried 4-4-4-8 vs 4-3-3-8 ? Has anybody tried that ?

that's what i suggested. i'd try it, but i have a p5wd2.. a board that doesn't seem to have these weird problems :p:
10-05-2006, 01:34 PM
bachus_anonym

I found a cure and it's so simple - flash to 0711 ;) It works for me, at least... I will post screens in a few minutes but 32M @ 450x9 8-4-4-4.0 gave me 13:08 and now running 8-3-3-3.0 and after 8th loop it's already 3.5s faster...

I gotta say, I start to like those ASUS bios people for listening and fixing glitches lately ;) Now, all we need is to improve 4:5 ratio, so that we can see 476x9 and RAM @ 600MHz :)

UPDATE: Done!

SPi32M @ 450x9=4050MHz, DDR2-900 8-4-4-4.0 --> 13:08.282

SPi32M @ 450x9=4050MHz, DDR2-900 8-3-3-3.0 --> 12:57.782

Nice :)
10-05-2006, 02:05 PM
metro.cl

Quote:

Originally Posted by bachus_anonym

I found a cure and it's so simple - flash to 0711 ;) It works for me, at least... I will post screens in a few minutes but 32M @ 450x9 8-4-4-4.0 gave me 13:08 and now running 8-3-3-3.0 and after 8th loop it's already 3.5s faster...

I gotta say, I start to like those ASUS bios people for listening and fixing glitches lately ;) Now, all we need is to improve 4:5 ratio, so that we can see 476x9 and RAM @ 600MHz :)

UPDATE: Done!

SPi32M @ 450x9=4050MHz, DDR2-900 8-4-4-4.0 --> 13:08.282

SPi32M @ 450x9=4050MHz, DDR2-900 8-3-3-3.0 --> 12:57.782

Nice :)

please put results, i'll try to check this i already flashed 711
10-05-2006, 03:53 PM
JuanFlaiter

That was crappy, good news Bachus found the fix :woot:
10-06-2006, 04:06 AM
camouflage

:confused: What about 975x chipset ???

Also a known bug there ???

:eek:
10-06-2006, 04:19 AM
jmax_oc

Quote:

Originally Posted by bachus_anonym

I gotta say, I start to like those ASUS bios people for listening and fixing glitches lately ;) Now, all we need is to improve 4:5 ratio, so that we can see 476x9 and RAM @ 600MHz :)

It's not the subject but where do you manage to go with 4:5 ratio ?
Which is the best bios for it (after 0607 of course) ?

I get problems around 430 FSB (ram 545-550) with 0614
10-06-2006, 05:24 AM
toledo

Quote:

Originally Posted by bachus_anonym

I found a cure and it's so simple - flash to 0711 ;) It works for me, at least... I will post screens in a few minutes but 32M @ 450x9 8-4-4-4.0 gave me 13:08 and now running 8-3-3-3.0 and after 8th loop it's already 3.5s faster...

I thought the bug was related to Cas only , that is , the cas latency was causing problems . Do you mean 3-3-3 with bios 711 is faster than 4-4-4 ?
10-06-2006, 06:51 AM
zachy

Quote:

Originally Posted by toledo

I thought the bug was related to Cas only , that is , the cas latency was causing problems . Do you mean 3-3-3 with bios 711 is faster than 4-4-4 ?

I've checked 3-3-3-4 vs 4-4-4-4 with same alpha timing 355x9 and guess what? 4-4-4-4 was 17s faster in super pi with 711 bios.
10-06-2006, 07:03 AM
toledo

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachy

I've checked 3-3-3-4 vs 4-4-4-4 with same alpha timing 355x9 and guess what? 4-4-4-4 was 17s faster in super pi with 711 bios.

WTF ?? :D .... Seems that 4-3-3-8 is faster than 4-4-4-8 , but 3-3-3-8 is slower than any timing settings at cas 4 :confused: . As i suspected the cas 3 is triggering the odd behavior
10-06-2006, 01:51 PM
funkflix

Quote:

Originally Posted by bachus_anonym

SPi32M @ 450x9=4050MHz, DDR2-900 8-4-4-4.0 --> 13:08.282

SPi32M @ 450x9=4050MHz, DDR2-900 8-3-3-3.0 --> 12:57.782

Hmm, i'm so confused with my 32M results.. At the ~ same settings as u used i always get around 14min 02.xxs, 4-4-4-8, 4-3-3-8 or even 3-3-3-8 does not really affect the times! :(
10-06-2006, 05:08 PM
bachus_anonym

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachy

I've checked 3-3-3-4 vs 4-4-4-4 with same alpha timing 355x9 and guess what? 4-4-4-4 was 17s faster in super pi with 711 bios.

Well, as a matter of fact you're right... I've decided to burn few hours on SPi32M runs and this is what's up:

Code:

Boot @ below (DDR2-533 ratio; 1:1; timmings: 4-4-4-4.0): 355x8 400x9 401x9 416x9 470x9 15:56.625 14:09.328 14:43.328 14:12.734 12:33.625 Boot @ below (DDR2-533 ratio; 1:1; timmings: 4-3-3-3.0): 355x8 400x9 401x9 416x9 470x9 16:30.219 14:39.797 14:30.922 13:59.813 12:22.781

Now, as far as I can tell, this behaviour it NOT triggered by CAS=3.0 but TRCD=3. Until we're below 401MHz FSB (e.g that 355MHz or 400Mhz above), changing 4-3-3-3.0 to 4-3-4-3.0 results in sudden boost (I know, WTF!) which results in 32M time arrive to the level of 4-4-4-4.0. In other words, from above experiment we can see, that 4-3-3-3.0 is pointless, right?

Wrong! Look what happens when we hit 401MHz. As some of you might have read earlier, 401MHz is where many of us believe, strap change occurs or at least some sort of NB's timmings' loosening happens. Apparently, this does not occur when we're already on TRCD=3! You can see, how much loss is 4-4-4-4.0 taking by going from 400MHz to 401Mhz (whole 34s), yet 4-3-3-3.0 magically gains 9s at the same moment!

Now, as some know, we can force P5B Deluxe not to switch strap at 401Mhz, by simply booting at 400Mhz and using Clockgen to ramp up FSB. I have shown a lot of results in Tony's "More P5B secrets uncovered" thread, so I'm not going to repeat them here. That "trick" gave a heatly boost of around 30s at any given FSB above 400MHz, compared to straight boot at that FSB. Surprisngly, this does not work as soon as TRCD=3! Taking above example, if we boot at 400Mhz and force 470Mhz 4-4-4-4.0 by using Clockgen, then instead of 12:33, we're going to see 12:02 (e.g. 12:05 @ 468MHz) but same thing for 3-3-3-3.0 will NOT result in a same boost and as a matter of fact, result will be worse than above shown 12:22 (e.g. 12:32 @ 468MHz)! Keep in mind, "clockgening up" to above 470MHz (32M-stable) is not an easy task and will very likely require vmch mod (my mobo has vcore, vdimm and vmch mods done) and good NB cooling.

This shows, that above 400MHz FSB (straight boot), 32M runs at 4-3-3-3.0 are somewhat faster than 4-4-4-4.0, but that's only due to strap change apparently affect only TRCD=4 cases, not TRCD=3. But below 400Mhz FSB, 4-4-4-4.0 (or 4-3-4-3.0 or 4-4-4-3.0) wins because apparently strap doesn't change until 401MHz. I have even booted as low as 266Mhz 5-3-3-3.0 and used Clockgen to raise to 355Mhz and it was exactly same result as straight boot @ 355Mhz. Would that mean, that RAM set to TRCD=3 (e.g. 5-3-3-3.0) results in a very loose NB from the very beginning??? Why? What's the purpose of it?

I'm gonna try to add somewhat better conclusion for it later... Feel free to chime in, guys! :)
10-07-2006, 12:39 AM
alpha0ne

Thanks bachus_anonym for your "as usual" invaluable help and conclusions :fact: :clap: :toast:
10-07-2006, 12:46 AM
VictorWang

you can compare 400fsb with ram=ddr2_800
and 450fsb with ram=ddr2_900
strange to, 400fsb is faster, both pi and 3d :(
10-07-2006, 01:04 AM
metro.cl

Quote:

Originally Posted by VictorWang

you can compare 400fsb with ram=ddr2_800
and 450fsb with ram=ddr2_900
strange to, 400fsb is faster, both pi and 3d :(

i believe that is because of the strap change.
10-07-2006, 01:08 AM
Vikodemous

Thank you bachus_anonym

I was wondering http://www.orrp.com/smf/Smileys/orrp/1-picture6.gif was going on.
10-07-2006, 01:52 AM
zachy

Yesterday i've made couple of bench:

7x450 4-4-4-5 spi16m 7m34s
7x450 4-4-4-8 spi16m 7m37s
7x450 4-4-4-8 losened alphas spi16m 7m41s
8x400 4-4-4-4 spi16m 7m25s
9x355 5:4 4-4-4-8 spi16m 7m17s

Im gonna add some more asap.

Non optymized system. :cool: