Which PSU for $200?

Printable View

10-01-2006, 07:07 PM
Istasi

Which PSU for $200?

Hello everyone,

With all this talk of how much power DX10 is going to draw, I figure it's time to get in the market for a new PSU. I'm looking for a few key things with this PSU:

-Performance/Power (able to handle DX10)
-Quiet
-Cable Management (modular would be great, but otherwise easily managable wires are good too)
-Around $200 or below

Here are a few choices that look good to me...

PCP&C Silencer 750W - $199.00
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...d174571d339a11

Silverstone Strider ST75F 750W (Modular Version) - $199.95
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...7ec71e3e3e16a7

Corsair 620HX - $169.95
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catal...ducts_id=20607

Seasonic M12 700W - $209.99
http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16817151031

XClio Greatpower 750W - $189.99
http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16817189011

AeroCool ZeroDBA 620W - $113.99
http://www.newegg.com/product/produc...82E16817331002

If you see an option that's not on the list that you think should be up there, suggest it!

Right now the Corsair is looking like the most attractive option, opinions?
10-01-2006, 07:29 PM
perkam

This one: http://www.directron.com/sstst75zf.html

Perkam
10-01-2006, 08:18 PM
Haltech

I second what Pek stated.. Silverstone make nice PSUs... Ive been using them for a couple of years now. Im just not a fan of modular psu's.
10-02-2006, 06:01 AM
Istasi

While that looks like it meets my performance/power requirement, I'm sick and tired of having unsleeved cables (especially in a case like the P180 where they're nigh-impossible to manage.)
10-02-2006, 06:10 AM
Zardokk

PC P&C Silencer 750 FTW! One huge 12v rail pwns 4 small 12v rails.
10-02-2006, 08:05 AM
EsaT

Seasonic M12. Well sleeved modular cables and secondary fan should help considerably in cooling of front end of PSU which gets very little airflow with standard 12cm fan design.

That Silverstone ST75F looks to be exactly similar to ST60F which at least isn't quiet
http://www.matbe.com/images/biblio/a...0000045208.png

PC P&C is officially one rail design and while Corsair should have three 18A rails jonnyguru managed to get 30A from one cable so three rails looks to be just for marketing.
Both are made by Seasonic and have exactly similar design as M12 which besides has only two points in PCB where 12V wires start, just like in Corsairs and that PC P&C.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haltech

I second what Pek stated.. Silverstone make nice PSUs...

I would be more confident about that if they didn't have built in EMI transmitters:

With the ST85ZF installed, I immediately noticed something with my digital K-type thermometer. It went haywire! Fortunately, I had other probes. So I replaced the probes and the thermometer readings were still bouncing all over the place. I then replaced the 9V battery and the readings still went all over the place.

One could assume that the thermometer has gone tits up, but once I stood three feet from the power supply (without tripping over a computer sitting on the floor) the readings for each probe went back to 22ºC; the room's temperature. Furthermore, this had happened to me before and it happened to be while I was testing the ST75ZF!

I've heard that electrical interference can affect digital thermometers, but I can't imagine why there would be so much interference and why only the ST75ZF and ST85ZF were doing this, but if I had a Geiger Counter I'd bust it out in a heartbeat!
http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/ST85ZF/index2.htm

(Not that Geiger counter could measure that, it reacts to ionizing radiation)
10-02-2006, 08:10 AM
Istasi

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Seasonic M12. Well sleeved modular cables and secondary fan should help considerably in cooling of front end of PSU which gets very little airflow with standard 12cm fan design.

That Silverstone ST75F looks to be exactly similar to ST60F which at least isn't quiet
http://www.matbe.com/images/biblio/a...0000045208.png

PC P&C is officially one rail design and while Corsair should have three 18A rails jonnyguru managed to get 30A from one cable so three rails looks to be just for marketing.
Both are made by Seasonic and have exactly similar design as M12 which besides has only two points in PCB where 12V wires start, just like in Corsairs and that PC P&C.

The M12 and the Corsair were really the two I was considering most, followed by the PCP&C 750. Modular would be a huge plus to me, and Seasonic's are always very quiet.
10-02-2006, 08:51 AM
TheDro

Concerning the M12 series psu, the 60mm fan is a "Temperature activated fan, rotates only when required" (quoted exactly from User's manual). I liked the idea of replacing my S12 in favor of the M12 because of the extra fan, since heat would build up at the top of my silverstone tj-06 case, and I didn't want to do any modifications such as adding a top 120 or 80mm fan. Too bad it doesn't stay on constantly, since I'd probably get another one (need to replace the one I got... defective) but will probably stick with the S12 instead.
10-02-2006, 09:35 AM
Shift

I would probably go with the TT Toughpower 750w
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817153038

It did extremely well in jonnyGURU's tests
http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/Toughpower750W/

Edit: Didn't see Perkham's post. I would go with that Zeus 750w
10-02-2006, 10:14 AM
J-Mag

My vote goes for the 750w Silencer, although I am biased since I just got one. It is quiet compared to my turbo cool 510w and 60amps on the single 12v rail is unparalleled.
10-02-2006, 11:07 AM
ssabripo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shift

I would probably go with the TT Toughpower 750w
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817153038

It did extremely well in jonnyGURU's tests
http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/Toughpower750W/

Edit: Didn't see Perkham's post. I would go with that Zeus 750w

I got the 700W version of that...looks impressive, and will report back later:banana:
10-02-2006, 11:23 AM
perkam

PCP&C 750W has heat issues.

Silverstone 750W is the one Shamino uses for Ln2 runs...need I say more ?

Perkam
10-02-2006, 11:41 AM
J-Mag

Quote:

Originally Posted by perkam

PCP&C 750W has heat issues.

Heat issues? What are you talking about?

Edit: Still can't explain it or what? I have a feeling sometimes that you are an algorithm.
10-02-2006, 12:29 PM
EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shift

I would probably go with the TT Toughpower 750w
It did extremely well in jonnyGURU's tests
http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/Toughpower750W/

You seem to have curious definition of "extremely well".

During test 6, the power supply would continuously shut down after about 1 minute of use. At which time, I simply turned the power supply back on, took some more readings, and proceeded until the power supply shut itself off again 1 minute later. If I had to guess, I would say it was a thermal shut off and not an overload since the load was static. Sure, the exhaust temperature was only 38°C but that's not going to account for how hot the MOSFET rectifiers are.
And with hotbox...
Test 6 says"OFF" in all of the cells because the PSU immediately shut off once I cranked the 12V rails up to 14A. Since the PSU would run for at least a minute when it was "cold" with this load on it, there's no doubt in my mind that this is an issue of overheating 12V rectifiers. Unfortunately, that's going to be the only mark against this power supply in the power supply category. Perhaps the load on the 12V rail was too high since the total power output of test six is actually less than test 5? I'm not sure. But the documentation lead me to believe that 14A on each 12V rail wouldn't be too much.

While you would have to have pretty damned rig for drawing that much power PSU should still be capable to delivering promised power, especially when it's supposed to be high quality PSU. In this case it fell short of rated 12V load while total load was well under rated so I wouldn't call that as "extremely well".
10-02-2006, 12:38 PM
Shift

Ok sorry about that, skimped through the TT review, but in other areas the PSU did fine.

Here is another choice that isn't bad, COOLMAX 850w PSU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817159019
10-02-2006, 03:05 PM
taemun

Shift: read this: http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/CTG-850/

The ST85ZF is better.

t
10-02-2006, 03:48 PM
tommrussell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Istasi

The M12 and the Corsair were really the two I was considering most, followed by the PCP&C 750. Modular would be a huge plus to me, and Seasonic's are always very quiet.

i just installed the corsair 620 over the weekend to replace my pcp&c 850 and i gotta say the corsair is xtremely quiet
10-02-2006, 03:57 PM
yaddam205

PCP&C > Everyone else.

More stability and better consistency then silverstone.. (in my expirence)
10-02-2006, 04:18 PM
Super Nade

If you are willing to spend $200, why not get the best?
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=479745

:)
10-02-2006, 05:00 PM
Anemone

I'd say hold on to your 550 till you know exactly what kind of power draw you'll need and then get one.
10-03-2006, 07:07 AM
EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Nade

If you are willing to spend $200, why not get the best?
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=479745:)

Sorry to shoot you down but I checked specs of this "mighty" Zippy and that PSU would be classified as low safety product here in Finland and importer/seller would be requested to withdraw product from sale and refund moneys for those returning PSU.

Quote:

DIELECTRIC WITHSTANDING VOLTAGE：PRIMARY TO SECONDARY 1800VAC FOR 1 SEC, PRIMARY TO FG：1800VAC FOR 1 SEC.
http://www.zippy.com.tw/P_PRODUCT_LI...wer&lv_rfnbr=2

Requirement is 3000Vac/1min.

Also efficiency is quite substandard: 71%@170W
For example Seasonic would produce well over 30W less heat at that load.
10-03-2006, 09:44 AM
perkam

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Sorry to shoot you down but I checked specs of this "mighty" Zippy and that PSU would be classified as low safety product here in Finland and importer/seller would be requested to withdraw product from sale and refund moneys for those returning PSU.

Requirement is 3000Vac/1min.

Also efficiency is quite substandard: 71%@170W
For example Seasonic would produce well over 30W less heat at that load.

jG is going to kill you now :p:

Perkam
10-03-2006, 10:01 AM
zillaoc

PCP&C Silencer!!!
10-03-2006, 12:58 PM
Praxis1452

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Sorry to shoot you down but I checked specs of this "mighty" Zippy and that PSU would be classified as low safety product here in Finland and importer/seller would be requested to withdraw product from sale and refund moneys for those returning PSU.

Requirement is 3000Vac/1min.

Also efficiency is quite substandard: 71%@170W
For example Seasonic would produce well over 30W less heat at that load.

Seasonic still does not have as great a build Quality as zippy does. I'm not exaclt ysure about the 3000Vac because that's not anywhere near my area. However efficiency does not rate a psu. 71% at 170W is still pretty good because this is a single rail design. They suffer from low efficiency at low loads. At 170W I doubt a Seasonic will do 80+ efficiency either with a single rail design at low loads. I doubt the zippy will do 80+ but efficiency isn't a very good judge. Efficiency is often a good judge if you are looking for silence but the zippy unit uses high speed Sanyo Denki's so unless you fanmod you shouldn't expect quiet. Someone else will better explain the part you mentioned.
10-03-2006, 03:42 PM
Istasi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anemone

I'd say hold on to your 550 till you know exactly what kind of power draw you'll need and then get one.

That's probably the logical thing to do, but I'm just itching to upgrade ;)
10-03-2006, 04:18 PM
jonnyGURU

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyGURU

....but if I had a Geiger Counter I'd bust it out in a heartbeat!

http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/ST85ZF/index2.htm

(Not that Geiger counter could measure that, it reacts to ionizing radiation)

It was a joke. :stick:
10-03-2006, 04:21 PM
jonnyGURU

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaddam205

PCP&C > Everyone else.

Three years ago, sure.
10-03-2006, 04:22 PM
Anemone

/nod I understand well. Just had to say it.

Sorry but while I like the Silencer in some ways, I'm just not super impressed. Fact is you don't use 80mm fans on heatsinks anymore, and honestly they don't need to be in psu's either. There are some good designs using them, but 42db at the high end means the silencer isn't really living up to it's name. For PCP&C, that IS silent. However, for the rest of the world, it just isn't.

Seasonic, which builds the silencer guts (which I do like) has other great psu's to it's name and they use very, very silent fans. The M12+ and the S12+ both have the same 3% regulation of the silencer, and thus have probably much of the same internals.

I don't think things have to be positively silent, but there is no reason you shouldn't have a great psu, and still get 28db or less on a regular basis. And you still get 3% regulation. If I had any reason to buy a psu today, I'd take the M12+ probably. 700w (for you, the need may be less), solid regulation, and quiet, all from a solid manufacturer. If PCP&C is happy with Seasonic on the inside, there is no reason you shouldn't be happy with it's name on the outside too :)
10-03-2006, 04:24 PM
Istasi

Yeah, the M12 and the 620HX are really the top competitors right now. I'm waiting for jonny to review the M12 before I make a final decision.
10-03-2006, 04:28 PM
Shift

Quote:

Originally Posted by Istasi

Yeah, the M12 and the 620HX are really the top competitors right now. I'm waiting for jonny to review the M12 before I make a final decision.

He showed some autopsy photos of the M12 at OCForums. Should be a review in soon.
10-03-2006, 04:31 PM
Anemone

I too would like to see Jonny review either the S12+ or the M12+. Suppose all in due time, no :)
10-03-2006, 04:40 PM
Istasi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shift

He showed some autopsy photos of the M12 at OCForums. Should be a review in soon.

That's what I'm hoping for :)
10-04-2006, 01:13 AM
EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxis1452

However efficiency does not rate a psu. 71% at 170W is still pretty good because this is a single rail design. They suffer from low efficiency at low loads. At 170W I doubt a Seasonic will do 80+ efficiency either with a single rail design at low loads.

Yep... it does just 81.8% at ~140W output according to 80Plus test. (at 230V it would be propably 83-84%)
Also because Zippy doesn't specify at what voltage its efficiency spec is for it might be still lower with 115V. That 71% would have been pretty good couple years ago, now it's badly substandard.
In fact Seasonic would produce only about half of heat produced by Zippy at 170W load!

And all PSUs except Enermax Galaxy (and one Tagan) have only single 12V transformer making them one rail designs in reality. This rail thing is just dividing outputs to different groups with individual OC limiter... which again seems to have been left out from Seasonics design, Corsairs provide happily 30A from one cable and now Silencer is also officially one rail model.

Efficiency rates how much more you need to pay for keeping your room temperature tolerable!
I think it's sure bet that most of you don't leave in areas where freezing temperatures are norm for one third of year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anemone

The M12+ and the S12+ both have the same 3% regulation of the silencer, and thus have probably much of the same internals.

Basing to pics those are completely identical except for heatsinks optimized for different airflow.
10-04-2006, 01:03 PM
Praxis1452

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Yep... it does just 81.8% at ~140W output according to 80Plus test. (at 230V it would be propably 83-84%)
Also because Zippy doesn't specify at what voltage its efficiency spec is for it might be still lower with 115V. That 71% would have been pretty good couple years ago, now it's badly substandard.
In fact Seasonic would produce only about half of heat produced by Zippy at 170W load!

And all PSUs except Enermax Galaxy (and one Tagan) have only single 12V transformer making them one rail designs in reality. This rail thing is just dividing outputs to different groups with individual OC limiter... which again seems to have been left out from Seasonics design, Corsairs provide happily 30A from one cable and now Silencer is also officially one rail model.

Efficiency rates how much more you need to pay for keeping your room temperature tolerable!
I think it's sure bet that most of you don't leave in areas where freezing temperatures are norm for one third of year.

Basing to pics those are completely identical except for heatsinks optimized for different airflow.

You really feel that efficiency is the measure of a psu?

Efficiency rates are not how much I need to pay to keep my room tolerable. I don't have a 1000W consuming rig. I probably only use 200-220W at load. It all depends. Also the electricity cost is quite minimal. I don't know how 60W is going to be that bad. As long as the psu can exhaust the heat the psu has no issues. If your room is too warm I'd suggest you get better ventilation because of the heat buildup and that it's not the extra 60W which is 10% at 600W. That'd be the difference between the two. At 140W it'd be much lower. 14W with a 10% difference. Hardly enough to be noticeable.

I also disagree that it's substandard. Seasonic is known for producing high efficiency units. Who else has that many 80+ units? I know enhance has some. Most don't.

I'm not a big stickler on efficiency cause it pretty much doesn't affect me at all. I'm cold in my office in the winter. in the summer I got the windows open and a fan. It's good. Hell I almost never use AC either.
10-04-2006, 01:28 PM
Dankie

I don't look at the efficiency as a measure of how much it heats up the room I am in. The small amount of heat that it is adding to this large room isn't that important. I would be more concerned with inadequate insulation in my house than a PSUs affect on room temperature.

I look at it as how much energy it is using and how much it is putting out. We should all be pressing PSU manufacturers for more efficient PSUs in an attempt to minimize our energy consumption. You can be an enthusiast and still care about the environment, just like a fisherman can enjoy his sport and insure that it is around for the next generation by practicing catch and release.

I think the 80plus program is a great initiative. With skyrocketing energy costs and the worlds dependance on oil, why shouldn't we be doing our part?

/hugs the nearest tree

Dankie
10-04-2006, 03:32 PM
Super Nade

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Sorry to shoot you down but I checked specs of this "mighty" Zippy and that PSU would be classified as low safety product here in Finland and importer/seller would be requested to withdraw product from sale and refund moneys for those returning PSU.

Requirement is 3000Vac/1min.

I can't read the language. Get me an English version of the requirements in Finland and I'll get an official answer from Zippy.

Quote:

Also efficiency is quite substandard: 71%@170W
For example Seasonic would produce well over 30W less heat at that load.

So, you pick the point where the unit has least efficiency and claim that it is crap. Have you any first hand experience with this unit? Do you know anything about the other important characteristics such as ripple, independent line/load regulation and suscepitbility to EMI? Have you seen anybody complain about thse characteristics or can you show me any reviews which claim this unit to be crap?

I've sent the unit over to JonnyGURU for testing, so the results should be known shortly.

PS#
Children of Bodom rock!:woot:

PPS#
Please don't try to patronize/school other people. It is very rude.
10-04-2006, 05:50 PM
Istasi

While Zippy is certainly a respected name in PSU's, I really want something silent, with at little modding as possible, preferably right out of the box.
10-04-2006, 06:20 PM
jonnyGURU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Nade

I've sent the unit over to JonnyGURU for testing, so the results should be known shortly.

OMG IT BLEW UP!!!!!

j/k... haven't seen the box yet. :D
10-04-2006, 07:02 PM
Super Nade

I think both of us would be happy if the f!#$%$ing lazy ass postman blew up. :D
10-04-2006, 07:09 PM
syne_24

jonny how's the progress on the m12 going? It could make it or break it for me this weekend if I should pick one up. :D
10-04-2006, 07:57 PM
Super Nade

^^ Cold box tests are done. He is setting up for the hot-box. :)
10-05-2006, 07:16 AM
EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Nade

I can't read the language. Get me an English version of the requirements in Finland and I'll get an official answer from Zippy.

In short that's a test results of one Tagan from couple years ago. First there's speech about insulations in transformer. Then result that transformer didn't pass 3000VAC/1 min test but strike-through between primary and secondary happened at 1800VAC. As summary PSU isn't immediately dangerous but safety level is very low.
In case if you don't trust translation you're welcome to translate it yourself, here's dictionary:
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/
(just remember first to change words in case back to basic form)

And what answer you where intending to get? That most (only some of their server PSUs are rated for 3000VAC/1min) of their PSUs would flunk in test of Finnish Safety Technology Authority?
They themselves state 1800VAC/1 sec for strength of insulation between primary and secondary:
http://www.zippy.com.tw/P_product_de...EGSM-6600P(G1)

But at least it would go just to very low safety category instead of dangerous or lethal categories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxis1452

and that it's not the extra 60W which is 10% at 600W. That'd be the difference between the two. At 140W it'd be much lower. 14W with a 10% difference.

Flunked in mathemathics at school? :nono:
Efficiency tells how much of input reaches output.
So if "Pi" is input power and "Po" output power with "x" being efficiency equation is this: Po/Pi=x
If input power is unknown it ends to form Pi=Po/x

For seasonic it would be 140W/0.818 ~ 171W
Efficiency of that Zippy takes such dive when going away from peak efficiency that even 70% efficiency is propably overestimate for 140W load but let's use it.
140W/.70 ~ 200W
So about 30W more/double amount of heat.

And let's calculate same for 600W load, efficiency of Seasonic was 81.9% at near full 700W load so 82% is propably underestimate but let's use it:
600W/0.82 ~ 730W
Now Zippy directly states efficiency for full 600W load, 72%:
600W/0.72 ~ 830W
Congratulations, you've got one Prescotfull of extra heat to waste.

Maybe I should change signature to this?
"Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be."
-Ambrose Bierce
10-05-2006, 12:10 PM
Super Nade

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

In short that's a test results of one Tagan from couple years ago. First there's speech about insulations in transformer. Then result that transformer didn't pass 3000VAC/1 min test but strike-through between primary and secondary happened at 1800VAC. As summary PSU isn't immediately dangerous but safety level is very low.
In case if you don't trust translation you're welcome to translate it yourself, here's dictionary:
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/
(just remember first to change words in case back to basic form)

And what answer you where intending to get? That most (only some of their server PSUs are rated for 3000VAC/1min) of their PSUs would flunk in test of Finnish Safety Technology Authority?
They themselves state 1800VAC/1 sec for strength of insulation between primary and secondary:
http://www.zippy.com.tw/P_product_de...EGSM-6600P(G1)

But at least it would go just to very low safety category instead of dangerous or lethal categories.

The reason I asked for a formal English version as officially specified is because there may be subtlties in both the text and the test conditions which only a professional engineer would be able to pick up. You speak as if you are the one setting the standards and have had prior experience testing this unit. Let me ask you again, do you have first hand experience (or) can you point me to one single review/thread which calssifies this unit as a safety hazard? Without proof of safety issues, your claims hold no water.

One could very well say that the power distribution network in Finland is crap, so as to necessitate such guidelines. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Flunked in mathemathics at school? :nono:

Congratulations, you've got one Prescotfull of extra heat to waste.

Maybe I should change signature to this?
"Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be."
-Ambrose Bierce

He may not have his math right, or may have failed Math in school, but you certainly have failed to learn manners and forum etiquette. Maybe a little less scorn for your fellow forumites would be order.:stick:
10-05-2006, 01:39 PM
EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Nade

The reason I asked for a formal English version as officially specified is because there may be subtlties in both the text and the test conditions

There isn't any space for different interpretations when report says this: "Transformer doesn't pass 3000Vac/1min dielectric withstanding voltage test between primary and secondary winding; Strike-through happened at 1800Vac." (Muuntaja ei kestä jännitelujuustestiä 3000Vac/1min ensiökäämin ulostulon ja toisiokäämin välillä; läpilyönti tapahtui 1800V:lla.) "Not immediately dangerous but safety level is very low."
(Ei välittömästi vaarallinen, mutta turvallisuustaso on erittäin alhainen.)

(technically pass means "läpäistä" and withstand would be closer to direct translation of "kestä > kestää" but word by word translating doesn't often work well between languages which have different syntax)

Quote:

The Safety Technology Authority (TUKES) is a state agency founded in November 1995. Subject to the Ministry of Trade and Industry, we act as the supervisor, developer and expert organisation within the technical safety and reliability. We operate within the realms of chemical and process industry, electrical safety, pressure equipment safety, rescue service equipment, articles of precious metals, construction products, and legal metrology.
Our mission is to protect people, property and the environment against safety risks and to promote the reliability in technology.

If you want to ask them you might get full technical arguments and regulations. (can't guarantee because only Finnish and Swedish are official languages)
http://www.tukes.fi/cgi-bin/feedback_eng.cfm

But regardless what amount of addiotional safety 3000Vac/1min gives that PSU would be requested to be withdrawn from sale. (step lower than requesting recalling of sold units) Not bad achievement for "ultimate quality" maker... or isn't best safety included in definition of quality?
10-05-2006, 01:39 PM
Praxis1452

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Maybe I should change signature to this?
"Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be."
-Ambrose Bierce

btw I had a huge post typed out. This will be like cliffs. XS decided to suck and so did my isp.

Your whole efficiency point is about as worthless as you. btw I was a lot less angry in the first post in fact it had 4 big grin smilies. But I'm pissed now. :mad:. just fyi y'know cause maybe if had attacked my point on the efficiency of psu's not being a measure for it your argument would actually be sustained. You didn't. I win. :D there we go. When you ignore the critical base of the argument you stand on you lose. Go figure right? A super long post by you and it's absolutely useless. hahahahaha ;)

I'm sure if zippy psu's couldn't meet safety standards a lot more would fail. The regulations are there for a certain reason yet I don't see anyone who's has failed yet. Different countries yes but I doubt yours sucks that much. I mean Comon. :stick:/fakenationalism . Sarcasm if your just a teeny weeny bit slow. hehe. If it works in the US other than the voltage difference what is the difference between how your electricity is wired than ours. I could be way off. But I'm going to say not much. So if it works it works. It works well going by just the multimeter ratings as well.

Oh I'm egoist btw. That's what I classify myself as. Cynic is faaaar to limiting. I call things as I see them. Perhaps if you had called yourself a realist maybe you would gain an oz of respect in comparison to say 1lb. So 1/16. Am I off there too? Am I???? REALLY???? A realist extends that they see things how they are. Cynics claim the same but do the opposite. Instead of viewing both sides they view the other. Only thing is that the "good" side is often pushed upon by the societal structure. Too bad really. Ya lose either way.

I'm a big fat ass. Your not that far off. I'm more a defensive ass though. Gotta protect myself when in prison y'know. ;)
10-06-2006, 04:15 AM
Ehwaz001

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Efficiency tells how much of input reaches output.
So if "Pi" is input power and "Po" output power with "x" being efficiency equation is this: Po/Pi=x
If input power is unknown it ends to form Pi=Po/x

For seasonic it would be 140W/0.818 ~ 171W
Efficiency of that Zippy takes such dive when going away from peak efficiency that even 70% efficiency is propably overestimate for 140W load but let's use it.
140W/.70 ~ 200W
So about 30W more/double amount of heat.

And let's calculate same for 600W load, efficiency of Seasonic was 81.9% at near full 700W load so 82% is propably underestimate but let's use it:
600W/0.82 ~ 730W
Now Zippy directly states efficiency for full 600W load, 72%:
600W/0.72 ~ 830W
Congratulations, you've got one Prescotfull of extra heat to waste.

So basically, having a 600W PSU with efficiency of 75% results in a effective wattage usage of 800W? But since this can be considered overhead and just to get enough power out there to get the needed power based on the efficiency rate, all the rest (200W) results in heat. Correct?

Trying to get my math straight here.
And in case you wondered: never had the opportunity to get math at school. It's not something to be happy about :(
10-06-2006, 04:39 AM
taemun

Ehwaz001: yes. The energy has to go somewhere, and there is no light, or sound, (or radiation hopefully :P) being output, so it comes out as heat.

EsaT: what PSUs actually pass this test with flying colours then? I'd have to say that Zippy is the only manufacturer that I've seen that even specifies the 'dielectric withstanding voltage between primary and secondary winding'. How often does the mains power spike to above 1800VAC in Finland anyway? You guys got really shoddy power?

t
10-06-2006, 04:57 AM
Super Nade

Quote:

Originally Posted by taemun

EsaT: what PSUs actually pass this test with flying colours then? I'd have to say that Zippy is the only manufacturer that I've seen that even specifies the 'dielectric withstanding voltage between primary and secondary winding'. How often does the mains power spike to above 1800VAC in Finland anyway? You guys got really shoddy power?

t

That is exactly what I asked and he chose to ignore it. :)

EstaT, thanks for the request form. I am formulating a few pertinent questions as we speak. Hopefully, I will get an English version or a German version of the necessary tech docs.

Where can I find units which do pass this requirement?
10-06-2006, 09:44 AM
EsaT

I admit that part of text can sound quite rude depending how it's read so my apologies if you took it as personal attack, my only scorn is against false information which is excessively abundant in todays world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxis1452

I'm sure if zippy psu's couldn't meet safety standards a lot more would fail. The regulations are there for a certain reason yet I don't see anyone who's has failed yet. Different countries yes but I doubt yours sucks that much.

Actually that one Tagan was only PC PSU in their database (online database covers last couple years) which has failed in that test. Propably most of low quality stuff isn't even sold/tried to import here because in case of any kind safety problems laws put manufacturer/importer under strict responsibility. Still there's surely worser devices available, if not for other reason then at least because of EU wanting to standardize everything (including curvature of cucumber) between countries and putting limits on how much free movement of commodities can be restricted.

As for power grid (50Hz) low voltage part is 230V between phase and ground and 400V between phases, next higher voltage is 20kV.
For somekind measure of safety/realiability of electrical devices here... in June 05 year's about only good thunderstorm striked to nearby 20kV line (half km of 20kV line, other for 230V line) and resulting surge blew seven fuses connected to that phase. (25A main fuse, multiple 16A and 10A, all slow fuses) Only casualties were tranformer's primary winding in power supply of TV antenna amplifier, interference filtering capacitor in speed control device of one ventilator and light switch in pillar drill which got "by-passed". Now PCs and TV weren't plugged to wall but everything else was so I think those safety regulations work very well. So instead of name of maker I would keep FI/FIMKO approval as best sign that product is high quality one when it comes to safety.

For how much one watt is, normal resistor, like those used in electronics, warmed at 1 watt power is burning hot if you touch it, for example of 30+ W heater try touching 40W incandescent lamp. Those give entirely new perspective to what such small sounding amounts of heating power are in reality.

But of course in case of only few percent efficiency difference I would keep other things much more important, actually Zippy is capable to doing over 80% efficiency PSUs, at least when mains voltage is higher than yours.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/oth...x-psu4_14.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/oth...x-psu4_16.html
Noise really appears to be their weak point.

Quote:

This is a high-quality and reliable power supply capable of coping with any modern computer, but you won’t like it if silence is your priority. The speed of its fan is too high even under low loads.

Quote:

The PSU is rather quiet at power loads of 250W and less (but I can’t call it silent because the hiss of the air is distinctly heard; most PSUs with 120mm fans are much quieter). When the load goes up, the PSU is not just noisy, but actually loud.
To make it clear, I’ve got two regular system cases on my desk and four powerful fans (two 92mm Thermaltake and two 80mm Delta Electronics) to cool the testbed. This arrangement isn’t very quiet even in the big room where there are a few more people and half a dozen more computers besides myself and mine. And the PSM-6600PE managed to make itself heard and prominent above everything else with its irritating loud high-frequency hiss of its fan! By the way, a Sanyo Denki SanCooler 80 fan (part number 9A0812S402) is installed in it.

It really has excellent electrical parameters... but it is so loud at high loads that I doubt you’d want to use it not only at home but even in office. The problem is not about the noise as such, but about its spectrum, which is shifted upwards and is thus distinguishable against the common chorus of PC fans. It is really annoying for the human ear.
10-06-2006, 01:06 PM
EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by taemun

Ehwaz001: yes. The energy has to go somewhere, and there is no light, or sound, (or radiation hopefully :P) being output, so it comes out as heat.

Part of it can be converted to sound if wires in coils are loose.
Also little energy is converted to radio waves, but those get absorbed (one reason for metallic case) and end up as heat in the end. (energy of absorbed photons gets converted to kinetic energy of atoms unless photon is capable to exciting or ionizing atom)
Only thing which doesn't produce heat, except for transfer losses, is reactive power which is just energy circulating between device and power grid and shows as voltage multiplied by reading of ampere meter (apparent power) being higher than wattage. Power factor is number which tells how much of apparent power is real power. Passive PFC (less effective) and active PFC (very effective) are ways for supressing reactive power.

Here's PSU which should pass that test:
http://www.zippy.com.tw/P_product_de...EHG2-6400P(G1)
So clearly all Zippys aren't made according to same highest standards.

EDIT: Looks like FI/FIMKO isn't sure guarantee about dielectric strength conforming standards of Safety Technology Authority.
[/i]For FI mark testing, Finnish SFS standards, European EN standards or worldwide IEC standards are usually used.[i]

Zippy's site looks to be fully down.
"Microsoft VBScript..."
10-06-2006, 04:54 PM
Helmore

Quote:

Originally Posted by EsaT

Sorry to shoot you down but I checked specs of this "mighty" Zippy and that PSU would be classified as low safety product here in Finland and importer/seller would be requested to withdraw product from sale and refund moneys for those returning PSU.

Quote:

DIELECTRIC WITHSTANDING VOLTAGE：PRIMARY TO SECONDARY 1800VAC FOR 1 SEC, PRIMARY TO FG：1800VAC FOR 1 SEC.
http://www.zippy.com.tw/P_PRODUCT_LI...wer&lv_rfnbr=2]

Requirement is 3000Vac/1min.

Am I seeing things wrong or are you? I don't know but Zippy states that thier powersupply will withstand 1800VAC/s and in Finland it is at least required to withstand 3000VAC/min to be called safe. But and it's a big BUT, isn't there a major difference between 1800VAC PER 1 SEC and 3000VAC PER 1 MIN? Sort of in the same way as 10m/s being a higher velocity as 18km/u? I don't know if, for powersupply safety testing, you will be able to convert 1800VAC/s to 108000VAC/min, most probably not, but it does mean that this 1800VAC/s figure of Zippy is different measure then what this Finish standard measures. If you take this into account, then it sure makes it more viable for Zippy PSUs to pass the safety tests. But as I already said, I could be wrong on this one.
10-07-2006, 02:51 AM
EsaT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helmore

But and it's a big BUT, isn't there a major difference between 1800VAC PER 1 SEC and 3000VAC PER 1 MIN? Sort of in the same way as 10m/s being a higher velocity as 18km/u?

Not really, if insulator is strong enough to resist strike-through for seconds (long time for electrical components) then it propably won't happen in longer time in case of this small times like minutes, unless leakage current (technically even insulators leak little current, their resistance isn't infinite) stresses insulator in some way. Strike-through happens when voltage is high enough to break electrons free from atoms and resistance drops like stone, quite much like in varistors/VDRs which are used in good PSUs for protecting them against line voltage spikes.
10m/s=36 km/h, four times the kinetic energy (which is like voltage) than in case of 18km/h.

I've myself sent inquiry to them about that part of tests.
Strike-through in that test isn't mentioned in most significant deficiencies with others PSUs in database, but there's some power adapters (Celly brand), one with failure at 1500Vac, other with 2900Vac failure and strike-through between PCB traces at 1900Vac with awfully long list of other flaws, including fire safety.
10-07-2006, 01:03 PM
Shift

Review of the M12 700w! Performance looks sweet
http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/M12-700/
10-07-2006, 02:59 PM
Istasi

Looks like a top-notch performer.

The real question is: would it be worth the extra $40 to get this over the Corsair 620HX?
10-08-2006, 10:27 AM
TheDro

If you plan on having a CF or SLI setup with DX10 cards, then get the M12-700, though I'm not really sure if it'll be enough power for two DX10 cards... but my gut feeling says yes, but my brain says no no... but really its up to you.
10-08-2006, 10:37 AM
Istasi

Well I don't really plan on going SLI or CF, especially with the first gen of DX10 cards and the ungodly amounts of heat they're supposed to dump.

So the 620HX should be fine?
10-08-2006, 10:41 AM
TheDro

Yes sir.
10-08-2006, 04:22 PM
Istasi

Sounds good, looks like that'll be my next purchase. :)
10-09-2006, 10:10 AM
ssabripo

I dunno, but I'm very happy with my Thermaltake 700W unit, which is pretty much the same exact thing as the 750W (same internals, etc):

http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/Toughpower750W/

it got huge marks across the board, and if it wasn't for the 6.5 "eastetics" score, it still got a 9!

:confused:

here she is in action:
http://upshizzle.com/gallery/albums/...6300%20003.jpg
10-18-2006, 06:21 PM
Istasi

Sorry to revive a semi-old thread, but I have to ask. Of these two PSU's, which one would you choose?

Silverstone Strider ST75F - $140 ($152 incl. shipping)
http://www.case-mod.com/store/silver...ly-p-2027.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyGURU

Anyhoo... The Silverstone ST70F I'm currently playing with is giving me warm fuzzies. Enhance built, seems to be good (although not the best) quality, strong regulation, decent efficiency (81% typical,) almost no ripple (although the 5V kisses the 50mV mark,) modular... and the Type K thermometer was not affected by it! :D

At $200, it's not TOO expensive, right?

Corsair 620HX - $165 (Free shipping)
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=373110

I'm leaning towards the ST75F, due to the price and jG's extremely kind words towards it. Which of these two would you choose? Or if you would pick something else for <$175, which is modular, quiet, and powerful enough for DX10, offer up your suggestions.

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:52 AM.

XtremeSystems