Message from David Baker

Dear XS crunchers,

Your combined efforts have been really important to what we are trying to accomplish! I'm sorry that the discussions of the new credit system have gotten so out of hand, the last thing of course we want is to alienate the people who have been contributing so much. I didn't anticipate this at all.

I think that after we make the transition (there will be no backdating) everybody will be happier as the credits will more accurately report what a computer has accomplished and for computer hardware experts interested in maximizing performance comparisons will be more meaningful.

I think that the main problems have been not with the proposed system itself but with all the discussions it has provoked. I'm thinking we should just remove these threads from our boards. What do you think?

thanks again,

David

Can someone please explain to him what we think went wrong? It is not me that is supposed to do that.

I am really, really glad you came to visit us, David. We have some decent discussions over here.

He knows.

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Originally Posted by Jose

He knows.

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Good, but now the discussions have started, it is difficult to stop them. It is not just about removing the threads, they will be posted again and again. This has gone way to far and appropriate action should've been taken days ago.

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Originally Posted by David Baker

Dear XS crunchers,

Your combined efforts have been really important to what we are trying to accomplish! I'm sorry that the discussions of the new credit system have gotten so out of hand, the last thing of course we want is to alienate the people who have been contributing so much. I didn't anticipate this at all.

I think that after we make the transition (there will be no backdating) everybody will be happier as the credits will more accurately report what a computer has accomplished and for computer hardware experts interested in maximizing performance comparisons will be more meaningful.

I think that the main problems have been not with the proposed system itself but with all the discussions it has provoked. I'm thinking we should just remove these threads from our boards. What do you think?

thanks again,

David

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Thanks for showing up here to get our opinions it's apppreciated :toast:

If the credits aren't backdated then I think the new work based credit system "should" be great.

As you have mentioned though the big problem I have is the credit "discussions" :rolleyes: on the forums. I along with the majority of the team are obviously oposed to being called cheaters and don't like having to put up with the endless flamings about how we are cheating by using the optimized clients. So yes to delete all old threads would be nice but what would be even better would ba an assurance of firmer action to be taken by moderators in deleting the threads ASAP and handing out warning and bans to the trolls that create them. I'm hoping these threads will not occur again with the new credit system but the characters that created them will always find a way to whinge and stir up trouble, that is their aim. :stick:

I myself am very happy to see you posting here, too. This will for sure encourage some people to continue, even if its a bit of a mess at the moment.
My suggestion would be that someone sums everything up what has happened in these discussions and opens one thread and provides all informations about the new system and its possible (dis)-advantages. I dont think the problem are the changes, but that noone really knows _what_ changes.

Movieman just brought all this to my attention.
I'm with Melymel.


errr, regarding the bans and deletion of threads, not with his avvie ;-)

Dr. Baker:
I appreciate your taking the time to come and post here.
You asked what we think so I will tell you.
My suggestions to create a pleasant climate between the DC teams and the organizations that receive that the gift of that computationa power:
1) Remove the posting privledges from any area outside of the cafe from anyone with less than a 250 RAC
2) Have a moderator who will step in when individuals post the same topic over and over ad nauseum.
3)Understand that we're not here to tell you how to run your business.
We're here to try and help you as friends because we beleive in what you are doing. It is really that simple: We beleive in what you are doing.
That is the first,best and only criteria that brought us to your project.
4) The competitions that all the teams use are not a necessary evil but are the one thing that brings people into the DC area.
I will agree that there may be a small percentage of the total computational power that is brought by people with no interest in statistics or competitions but they are a very small portion of the total.
To prove my point, try running a DC app with out any points and see how many takers there are for it.
5) A decent lead time announcing changes in point structures or when different versions of the application are going to be rolled out.
I understand that something may be planned for a wednesday but happens on a friday due to last minute glitches but maybe something as simple as a link on your main page marked announcements saying that in app 2 weeks we will be doing such and such.
6) Allow us to help you more. App 2 weeks ago I sent a letter to Dr. David Kim outlining an idea that I had. All this would require of you is perhaps 10 minutes of your time and not one dime from your wallet.
You asked for what we thought and this is it.
I closed that email to Dr. David Kim with the following line and it's fitting here:
Help us to help you.
Thanks for your visit here.

http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/fo...?id=2121#23010

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All together for science (until N°1, then ....) : http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=43195

Very funny.

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This post is the kind of thing that really annoys me. There is no way of looking at it to make it not a direct flame at XtremeSystems and yet they're being aloud to post it. why?

:toast:

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Originally Posted by Bio1ogics

Movieman just brought all this to my attention.
I'm with Melymel.


errr, regarding the bans and deletion of threads, not with his avvie ;-)

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Can't see why you wouldn't like my avator :confused:.... :p:

I am sorry to disgaree with you MM. For me the issue is one of simple fairness to the Top Teams, specially XtremeSystems.

I do believe we have been slandered and the slanderers have been rewarded by the developers silence. Erasing the slanders against us is not going to remove the historical fact that we have been slandered.

To me the issue has become a simple one: by their silence in the public forums the Developers have given credence to the slanders against us. That is for me an indication to get out.

Thierry last posts have clinched for me . I for one I am not crunching for Rosetta until my angers subside. Knowing me angers subsides very slow. I will respect the individual members position on the issue of crunching for Rosetta. All I ask that mine not to is respected. BTW I will not crunch on any BOINC project.

Jose

I can tell you that I am participating in this project 100% for the cause. Like many of us here I have had bad experiences with what this project is trying to remedy. That is my motivation. But being a part of a team like XS is really great and I don't like to see us or anyone else shot down and called cheaters anymore than the next guy. So I do agree that something needs to be done about those that do that.

I, for one, will continue R@H for a long time to come regardless of how many points I get, so keep up the great work Dr. Baker!!!

Dr. baker! Take it from me. You have to empower your moderators on that forum to drop the fist and say 'enough is enough'. Surely to God D. Kim has more things to be doing that listening to the same old stuff from the SETI freaks and listening to us trying to defend ourselves and basically annoying us to the brink of flame.

Its total slander i tell you and it has to be stopped and so does the ridiculing attempts. Anyways, best of luck with the new system and spending Bills cash.

Neil

This may sound like a strange or impossible idea, but why not make a stand-alone client that runs without the :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:ty Boinc program? All problems solved :) (except the people, lol)

im next to my co capitan in this matter, all my pc power is going down until the rosetta team does something about this guys, and more things are explained about the new credit system, i said before and im going to say it here im not here for the points im here becuase i believe in this project and the final result but i wont tolerate people callin me cheater when ive been working non stop to produce all i can, i fact my laptop since i bought it never stoped working until today and most people has more time here crunching than me...

we are here to boost the production of this project until there is no more work, we havent proved that in all this time? we out produce every team and even if the 4 teams below us gather we still will out produce them...

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Originally Posted by leviathan18

im next to my co capitan in this matter, all my pc power is going down until the rosetta team does something about this guys, and more things are explained about the new credit system, i said before and im going to say it here im not here for the points im here becuase i believe in this project and the final result but i wont tolerate people callin me cheater when ive been working non stop to produce all i can, i fact my laptop since i bought it never stoped working until today and most people has more time here crunching than me...

we are here to boost the production of this project until there is no more work, we havent proved that in all this time? we out produce every team and even if the 4 teams below us gather we still will out produce them...

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I came to this project for the million points day.
I have since then read and learned what this project is about and became convinced this is where my machines belong.I have been on a continuous upgrade cycle since.I will not let the complainers sway me.
I have been reading the forums at Rosetta@Home since I joined this great project and can't comprehend the endless squables,though they are quite entertaining.With or without this team I will continue to devote my cycles to Rosetta.

Dr. Baker: There's the team and what they think. Even forgeting what I said, the desire and passion to help your project is heard in these guys voices.
There is a reason this is the XtremeSystems forum.
Along with the xtreme systems are many xtreme people.

You want it Baker? Ill tell it to you how it is... you may not like it...

Team XS has really busted our asses for you.. Ive got $460 electric bills to prove that.. Thousands of dollars in hardware... So do the other 571 members of our team... we are your largest team, yet.. we were treated with more disrespect than i will ever tolerate.

Please tell me why these morons from the SETI team, which btw, is the most WORTHLESS and WASTED CPU cycle project going these days, allowed to dictate our project? Infact, why havent you and youre team gotten down on BOINCS case for NOT optimizing their client to begin with? WE HAVE had 64 bit processors for almost 4 years and no 64 bit windows clients. We have SSE2 and SSE3 instructions that arent being used. So.. were the bad guys for eeking every ounce of power from out machines to, HELP YOU? Shame on you.

I called for a boycot within one week because of your lack of presence... allowing these weenies to dictate how this project is going to run and how our points should be calculated. its a real let down that it was allowed to go this far. Ive been called a cheater because my dedicated machines have a nice RAC... its insane and more importantly, lets us down as a team for being considered " cheaters " in our efforts. Maybe everyone else here plans to be diplomatic with you.. but i think you need a quick reality check from a real user for once.. that person is me. I hope for the sake of your projects future, you get this squared away.

Love

Haltech

7.5Ghz of AMD's are suspended until a sensible outcome is reached. I'm sick of the Childish, whining Idiots who, quite frankly, contribute little or nothing to the project.

Good luck Dr Baker, i have a feeling you'll need it.

EDIT:
To make that a bit clearer, it's not their RAC I have a problem with, it's the fact that they seem to want to bog this project down, bend it to their own whims. That, to me at least, is not contributing to the project. Until people like this stop haveing a vioce disproportionately large to their overall contribution to the project, i will cease to Crunch for Rosetta. D2OL will be reloaded in the morning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Baker

Dear XS crunchers,

Your combined efforts have been really important to what we are trying to accomplish! I'm sorry that the discussions of the new credit system have gotten so out of hand, the last thing of course we want is to alienate the people who have been contributing so much. I didn't anticipate this at all.

I think that after we make the transition (there will be no backdating) everybody will be happier as the credits will more accurately report what a computer has accomplished and for computer hardware experts interested in maximizing performance comparisons will be more meaningful.

I think that the main problems have been not with the proposed system itself but with all the discussions it has provoked. I'm thinking we should just remove these threads from our boards. What do you think?

thanks again,

David

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I think that deleting threads is just like telling the jury not to pay attention to what they just heard.

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Originally Posted by InSanCen

7.5Ghz of AMD's are suspended until a sensible outcome is reached. I'm sick of the Childish, whining Idiots who, quite frankly, contribute little or nothing to the project.

Good luck Dr Baker, i have a feeling you'll need it.

EDIT:
To make that a bit clearer, it's not their RAC I have a problem with, it's the fact that they seem to want to bog this project down, bend it to their own whims. That, to me at least, is not contributing to the project. Until people like this stop haveing a vioce disproportionately large to their overall contribution to the project, i will cease to Crunch for Rosetta. D2OL will be reloaded in the morning.

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Please remember everybody, I'm a scientist trying to solve science problems, and I am relatively new to the sociology of distributed computing. I don't think it is true that the complainers are having a disproportionate influence over the project. The new credit system was proposed by many people over the past months, and I don't think anyone thinks it is not reasonable.
The problem with the offensive posts is very hard to deal with--it would require a full time moderator which we don't have (it is basically me and David Kim right now, and I don't even know how to delete stuff and believe me I have a zillion other things to do as well--trying to deal with this issue is certainly making it difficult to focus on science today). And the boinc developers are already swamped and can't make changes to address these issues either.
PLEASE--try to think about the science and the benefits to humanity, and ignore the taunts from the little guys--they just don't matter--and I hope all this will blow over soon. You have been making a fantastic contribution, and I would hate to see this cause any disruption to our collabortive efforts together.

Why are you walking away from everything we have brought up to you? Why cant you answer our questions and request.. ?we thought about the science, have you? Sounds to me, you dont really care.Wont be much science for you to solve if you dont have any work being sent back to you the fashion you have been used to... We can easily dismantle this entire R@H if you wish... i really think you need to start addressing us in a serious manner, immediately.

Dr Baker: There is a time when you have to cut your losses and that's what I have done today. I tried and tried to get across to you folks that this was coming but saw no action in response to those requests. Today was the final straw for me. I wish you the best of luck but I am out and I have suggested to the team to do likewise.

Dr David Baker.

first of all sorry for my english its not my native language.

Yes you are a scientist and a real good one, i love the goal of this project i've been affected recently by something you could stop with time if rosetta reach the goal, but we wont tolerate people telling us cheater when we spend time effort and money here, maybe you are only 2 in this but you could ask Us or just make post to have mods overthere that help you with the forums that is easy people will do it ad honorem i know i would and lot of people here will do it to help you out, but we didnt have the response we should have in this issue in time it was obviated and that is bad.

i hope you guys take 1 hour of your time to think about how to organize the "social" part of this project remember we do the work you want us here, you have to keep 90% of the people happy and think about a team that helps you most people will do it for free ;)

hope you understand what i mean. and thank you for you effort i really appreciate it

Axel Daniel Cortez Reyes

As you quoted me, I'll reply to you directly, hopefully in a polite fashion, I'm not out to offend anyone here.

I stated exactly what I feel. mabye in your opinion you do not feel that these people are having a larger say in things, but by the credit system changing at all, they have won.

They are a highly disruptive influence to the project as a whole, and I for one will not tolerate any more flaming, insulting or downright nastiness to my teammates. I cannot post in the many threads that contain this behaviour without earning a ban, and letting down the good name of XtremeSystems.

The only way I can show my dissatisfaction is to stop crunching Rosetta. I'm sorry, but I can only take so much from Keyboard Warriors.

I appreciate you are busy, but it would have taken less time to put your foot down, and stop the childish behaviour, than to develop a new scoring system. IMO, that time would have been much better spent implementing a wholly new client, independant of the bug-riddled BOINC.

I will remove Rosetta from my system's immedietly, and install D2OL again. That was fun, like Rosetta used to be, and hopefully it will be again.

Ali, signing 7.5Ghz off Rosetta for good.

We were not given the time and energy we deserved and Bakerlabs Should have stepped in sooner and shouldn't have aloud this to escalate into what it has become. The entire flaming was started thanks to saenger naming us cheats which obviously we will not endure and bakerlabs still havent done anything about that, why isn't he banned any other forum he would be... If you need a better mod/s then why not look around and ask there are many that would jump to the occasion and be brilliant for the job I would instantly step up to the task.

Anyway as said here I get the impression this is a desperation thread and it should be XS is on the edge but I ask my team mates to listen to him. He has taken his time to come here and get our view, what we wanted! So give them this one last chance I don't want to jump form the project but obviously will if I must, I just feel if David here is trying to get our opinion then we should take the opputrunity, if nothing is done still then yes I will be with everyone else in leaving.

:toast:

Than David should be smart enough to begin answering all of these questions in this thread.. He has all weekend to do it. Common sense i would hope comes into play.

I really don't know what to do to make everybody happy. Shall we just stick with the old credit system?

I'm delighted that there are people willing to be forum moderators. Send me an email and we will sign you up. I think a lot of the problems would not have happened if Moderator9 hadn't gotten busy, and no other volunteers really stepped forward to take his place.

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Originally Posted by David Baker

I really don't know what to do to make everybody happy. Shall we just stick with the old credit system?

I'm delighted that there are people willing to be forum moderators. Send me an email and we will sign you up. I think a lot of the problems would not have happened if Moderator9 hadn't gotten busy, and no other volunteers really stepped forward to take his place.

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I don't think anyone has a direct problem with the credit system and providing it gives the fair playing field to all rigs then it will be great and I will welcome it.

The problem we have is the fact it appears to have been implemented as a result of maybe 3 or 4 low contributing members repeatedly creating threads directly insulting us and accusing us of cheating. We expected a moderator or admin to step in and ban them or simply tell them that they are wrong and to go away if they don't like it however instead it seems quite the oposite happened and their wishes and moans were granted. These people still continue to troll and flame the forums and I would be very happy to see these people banned or simply told that they are wrong and to stop the flaming or they're out. This would certainly satisfy me along with a gurantee that if any future events arise we will be acknowledged, listened too and given the time and effort we deserve.

Also if I had your email address you would have one from me :D.

:toast:

If you dont inform us (the comunity) of your needs we wont know, i cant be a mod because i think i have the barrier of the language, but here is lot of people with the experience to do it, really the problem isnt the credits is that no one did anything to stop the guys calling us cheaters and other things it was a problem that can be solved but you guys really need some time to think about the social part of your project because its top priority for real.

i dont want to see this team leaving this project becuase i believe in it, please Dr Baker take your time and see how you need to manage this problem ask for help and you will recieve it, havin a forum is a problem that needs people to watch over it.

and i think you should speak with Jose and Dave (movieman) because those guys have things to speak with you.

i really want to help you with everything i can.

Axel Daniel Cortez Reyes

DAvid Baker:

You protestations that we are important sound like hollow lies when this letter from David Kim is taken into account
From: David Kim
Date: 08/18/06 20:58:52
To: Jose
Subject: Re: This

I'm sorry to hear this Jose.


I was not available all day today since 5am in the morning until 3 hours ago and am just now looking through the mess that has happened in that short time. Even if I was around, I doubt I would have been able to do anything short of using the new banishing utility. I've already spent way too much time on this.


good luck and best wishes.


David Kim
.....

Both of you can recite the multiplication tables and I will not believe a single word you say.

Why are you letting some stupid people who are probably just jealous of our organization and output stop you from contributing to hands down the best DC project for humanity? Who cares if someone thinks we are cheating? That's just an opinion. I'm not leaving Rosetta. No way.

Andrew McDonald

Ok, closing this thread for an hour or two.

I will discuss this with David first and go from there, lets take this a bit slower.

Hold tight, do not start a new thread.

Dr. Baker,

I myself do not see the use of optimized BOINC files as cheating because only machines with true SSE2 and other capabilities will score higher benchmarks with these files. The fact that Rosetta isn't programmed to make use of these capabilities is not my fault; if it did my rigs would be producing more work to earn the higher credits. Therefore the whole argument of the whiners is invalid. A Porsche is a Porsche however you choose to drive it.

I personally would like to continue with Rosetta, but if you choose to fall into the trap that Vijay Pande did at Folding@Home, that would leave me no choice but to go along with my mates.

DDTUNG:cool: