Kepler Nvidia GeForce GTX 780

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Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101

If you look at the Fermi generation, the GTX *70 and GTX *80 were GF 1*0 parts while the GTX *60 is a GF1*4 part. I think this may have been planned as a GTX 660, not even GTX 670 Ti.

This will probably irritate fanboys from both camps, but both companies deserve a bit of a knuckle-rapping. As good as Tahiti is, AMD got caught with their pants around their ankles this round, and Nvidia took full advantage by raping the customer. Look at the GTX 680, if you ignore performance there's nothing about it which screams high-end SKU. Four phase power, dual 6-pin power connectors, a PCB basic enough to have been designed by a first year engineering student. I can imagine the conversation at Nvidia:

Engineering: Behold, here's the GK104, a true successor to the 8800GT 512MB :D
Marketing: Holy :banana::banana::banana::banana:, look at that performance! Do you KNOW what we can sell this for?
Engineering: $299? It's a mid-range card?
Marketing: So? $499 :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:es!

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Most of what you've said is right... except for that exchange.

Think of it this way... Marketing has little to do with the actual price of the cards and which cards get sold as what.

The truth is that the management of the company makes such decisions and when they see that their middle range card is on-par with the performance of AMD's high-end there is absolutely no reason for them to release it as a mid-range card at mid-range prices. If they're going to beat AMD in either case, why should they be doing it for $200 (or $250) less? Realistically, this will be one of the first GPUs in a LONG time that NVIDIA is actually able to sell at a huge profit margin without having to sell it as a TESLA or Quadro. Because of this, I hope, we'll see NVIDIA coming out with more less expensive GPUs with better performance... AND once the GK110 stuff comes out, I think we may see a STEEP drop in GK104 prices which would be good for everyone.

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Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101

Engineering: Behold, here's the GK104, a true successor to the 8800GT 512MB :D

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The market for GK104 (and 7970) isn't there. I don't think nVidia and AMD is going to kill their markets starting a price war. Games doesn't need these GPU's, even 30" (2560x1600) will not require these GPU's.

Be realistic. If Nvidia had other cards ready for launch, they would launch them. AMD has entire series out. HD79xxs are just one piece of GPU markets. Im quite sure that Nvidia wants to release something to compete with 77s and 78s asap, since they are late already.
You may call GTX 680 what ever you like. If it competes with AMD high end. Its a high end card. Its power draw indicates to high end aswell, even tho theres room for more, but so has AMD. 240W vs 190W TDP is misleading. Real world test show that their power draw is inside 20-23 watts from eachother.

Good thing that Notebook and Tablet market producs are going well at least. Its way bigger market for them anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kristoferr

Be realistic. If Nvidia had other cards ready for launch, they would launch them. AMD has entire series out. HD79xxs are just one piece of GPU markets. Im quite sure that Nvidia wants to release something to compete with 77s and 78s asap, since they are late already.

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Realistically why wouldn't a company want to milk the prices for as much as they can. 560-580s can compete with AMDs midrange for now.

500$ cards have never been the cards who sold the most... Dont believe they have make that cause they think their midrange can compet with high end of AMD .... and so ? where is the GK100? what was the spec of it ?

Marketing at his best. This is as good of the woodscrew tentative. " We have a so good 300$ card, we will sell it to you for 549$" ...

I'd like to see the 7970 with the compute stuff disabled vs. the 680, that would be a good comparison.

Any of you who say that NVIDIA would release GK110 or GK100 if they had it do not understand business or the business of silicon.

GK-104 is a cheap chip to produce and it has good yields. Therefore, NVIDIA is making a killing on all of these cards, as are their board partners. Since that is the case, why wouldn't they release the cheaper to produce relatively fast GPU that makes them a crapton of money? Then, once they have proper volumes and yields on the bigger/hotter chip, release that. To me, it seems that NVIDIA is in no rush to release their fastest, hottest, obviously lower yielding chip. If anything, they can continue to make those chips in preparation for thousands of TESLA and Quadro orders when they're announced. NVIDIA has a pretty good strategy if you ask me and they're executing it fairly well.

I partlially agree with you here. If they dont have enought room on GPU production to procuce mid range cards then theres no point going on them right now. But if they do, they would surely benefit from relising the mid range asap.
People who are waiting for mid range cards, will not buy GTX680 anyway. Instead they rather wait, go for 40nm cards or choose AMD 28nm midrange instead.

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Originally Posted by Russian

Any of you who say that NVIDIA would release GK110 or GK100 if they had it do not understand business or the business of silicon.

GK-104 is a cheap chip to produce and it has good yields. Therefore, NVIDIA is making a killing on all of these cards, as are their board partners. Since that is the case, why wouldn't they release the cheaper to produce relatively fast GPU that makes them a crapton of money? Then, once they have proper volumes and yields on the bigger/hotter chip, release that. To me, it seems that NVIDIA is in no rush to release their fastest, hottest, obviously lower yielding chip. If anything, they can continue to make those chips in preparation for thousands of TESLA and Quadro orders when they're announced. NVIDIA has a pretty good strategy if you ask me and they're executing it fairly well.

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Think Tesla and Quadro.
nVidia will launch big compute oriented chip ASAP if only to professional markets. A lot of supercomupters are waiting for that chip to be delivered. Granted they will not rush it to consumer market as they would do if GK104 was loosing to AMD, but they wont sit on ready chip when it can be sold for massive profits as Tesla or Quadro.

Also arguing that GK104 is not high end is a bit silly. At this moment in time it is, period. You can debate as much as you want, but this will not change facts. nVidia adjusted they consumer chip strategy and executed very well indeed delivering efficient, small and fast gaming chip. I have a feeling we will see GK104 dual card for gamers but GK110(100?) will exist solely as a single GPU product.

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Originally Posted by Lanek

Marketing at his best. This is as good of the woodscrew tentative. " We have a so good 300$ card, we will sell it to you for 549$" ...

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If AMD got big bolls with their tahiti cards, nVidia would be in serious trouble. As they got little ones, nVidia feels good right now.
Their middle chip perform better than what AMD can deliver with its big dog chip.
If you blame nVidia, don't forget to blame AMD ;)

So they are likely to release a 670 with 1344 shaders, would the 660 end up being a die harvested GK104 @ 768/960 shaders or GK106? Assuming they all have a 192 shader SMX configuration that is.

GK107 = 384
GK106 = 768/960?
GK104 = 1536
GK110 = 2304?

I am both amazed and a little perturbed by the lack of information on any other chips besides the GK104 & GK107. I would be surprised if the GK106 is a 128bit card, most likely it's 192bit and should provide competition for the 7700's & maybe 7850, but unlikely the latter.

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Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101

If you look at the Fermi generation, the GTX *70 and GTX *80 were GF 1*0 parts while the GTX *60 is a GF1*4 part. I think this may have been planned as a GTX 660, not even GTX 670 Ti.

This will probably irritate fanboys from both camps, but both companies deserve a bit of a knuckle-rapping. As good as Tahiti is, AMD got caught with their pants around their ankles this round, and Nvidia took full advantage by raping the customer. Look at the GTX 680, if you ignore performance there's nothing about it which screams high-end SKU. Four phase power, dual 6-pin power connectors, a PCB basic enough to have been designed by a first year engineering student. I can imagine the conversation at Nvidia:

Engineering: Behold, here's the GK104, a true successor to the 8800GT 512MB :D
Marketing: Holy :banana::banana::banana::banana:, look at that performance! Do you KNOW what we can sell this for?
Engineering: $299? It's a mid-range card?
Marketing: So? $499 :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:es!

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Come on man, you cannot say that only nvidia is ripping/raping off the customer and AMD wasn't aggressive. Thats giving AMD way to much benefit of the doubt. The entire lineup from AMD is a rip off or and the little to no jump in price to performance shows this if you say Nvidia is doing it

The best value card from AMD this generation is probably the 7870. Look at the card itself and the performance and it will be hard to see why this thing is priced at 350, specially when you compare jumps from last generations. Look at earlier x870 series and the value is completely absent this generation. The card get 10% better performance than a gtx 570 which was launched 17 months ago and is the same price(this is launch price which is even worse) and is well under half the die size. Same problem compared to the 6970 as well.

The idea is, if you consider Nvidia raping the customer, AMD is even worse because they are doing it with the whole line up. And even with the higher than expected pricing of Nvidia gtx 680, once supply of gtx 680 comes about, AMD will be forced to do a price drop across almost everything above 350. Price drops not at the end of a products shelf life means too a high a price and thus means ripping off the customer.

Even you AMD lovers have to see, if Nvidia priced this thing at $300 or what you guys believe what the true pricing is(to put Nvidia in a bad light somehow), then honestly AMD would be completely done this generation. I.e 280 dollar 7970, 230 dollar 7950, 180 dollar 7870s and 100 dollar 7770. AMD would be hemorrhaging so much money that it would make the 2900xt years look fantastic. And we all know that everyone wants AMD to makes some money, especially you AMD fans.

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Originally Posted by Russian

Most of what you've said is right... except for that exchange.

Think of it this way... Marketing has little to do with the actual price of the cards and which cards get sold as what.

The truth is that the management of the company makes such decisions and when they see that their middle range card is on-par with the performance of AMD's high-end there is absolutely no reason for them to release it as a mid-range card at mid-range prices. If they're going to beat AMD in either case, why should they be doing it for $200 (or $250) less? Realistically, this will be one of the first GPUs in a LONG time that NVIDIA is actually able to sell at a huge profit margin without having to sell it as a TESLA or Quadro. Because of this, I hope, we'll see NVIDIA coming out with more less expensive GPUs with better performance... AND once the GK110 stuff comes out, I think we may see a STEEP drop in GK104 prices which would be good for everyone.

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Exactly.

A. Nvidia's mid-range beats AMD's high-end.
B. Nvidia sets the price as if their mid-range part was a high-end part.
C. Nvidia rakes in huge profit margins and tweaks GK110.
D. Extreme enthusiasts all over the planet rejoice.
E. I make plans for a new 5x1 120hz setup to be powered by 3-4 GTX 685s/GTX 780s.

Even at the prices you mention the cards would be making money to AMD. Certainly less then they do right now. Certainly they would choose a lower cost BOM to make up for the lower margin. BUT, they would still be making money.

Neither company is better than the other, both are "raping" the customer.

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Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth

Exactly.

A. Nvidia's mid-range beats AMD's high-end.
B. Nvidia sets the price as if their mid-range part was a high-end part.
C. Nvidia rakes in huge profit margins and tweaks GK110.

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A: Nvidia's "midrange" "beats" AMD's "midrange" (remember their "high-end" is the dual GPU for years now.)
B: Agreed
C: Agreed

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Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth

Exactly.

A. Nvidia's mid-range beats AMD's high-end.
B. Nvidia sets the price as if their mid-range part was a high-end part.
C. Nvidia rakes in huge profit margins and tweaks GK110.
D. Extreme enthusiasts all over the planet rejoice.
E. I make plans for a new 5x1 120hz setup to be powered by 3-4 GTX 685s/GTX 780s.

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Its amazing how everyone in here KNOWS that this IS a mid-range card. You guys don't know anything. Stop stating things like it is FACT!!!!

And how do you KNOW that Nvidia is making a killing? Show me your proof that shows what the card costs and how much the markup is.....

I think this whole argument revolves around the GK104 chipset name, if it had been named GK100 with the same performance level as GK104 then we probably would have swallowed it all a lot easier. So now, after all the waiting and speculation we are already looking past Gk104 to any future release we can find.... It's tragic

:)

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Originally Posted by Elmy

Its amazing how everyone in here KNOWS that this IS a mid-range card. You guys don't know anything. Stop stating things like it is FACT!!!!

And how do you KNOW that Nvidia is making a killing? Show me your proof that shows what the card costs and how much the markup is.....

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I cannot reveal sources but I can tell you that vendors alone (Asus, GBT, etc) are making profits nearly twice as large as they make on the 7970.

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Originally Posted by aussie-revhead

I think this whole argument revolves around the GK104 chipset name, if it had been named GK100 with the same performance level as GK104 then we probably would have swallowed it all a lot easier. So now, after all the waiting and speculation we are already looking past Gk104 to any future release we can find.... It's tragic

:)

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Not with four phase power, an elementary PCB and twin 6-pin connectors. That all points towards mid range (GTX x60).

Agreed. Though it has to be said that most nvidia cards in the past had elementary PCBs and just "almost fair" power circuitry...

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Originally Posted by Elmy

Its amazing how everyone in here KNOWS that this IS a mid-range card. You guys don't know anything. Stop stating things like it is FACT!!!!

And how do you KNOW that Nvidia is making a killing? Show me your proof that shows what the card costs and how much the markup is.....

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Are you so easily disillusioned? LOL, looks like Nvidia's plan is working easily on you, friend.

It's a known fact that GK104 is the Kepler mid-range GPU.

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Originally Posted by DeathReborn

So they are likely to release a 670 with 1344 shaders, would the 660 end up being a die harvested GK104 @ 768/960 shaders or GK106? Assuming they all have a 192 shader SMX configuration that is.

GK107 = 384
GK106 = 768/960?
GK104 = 1536
GK110 = 2304?

I am both amazed and a little perturbed by the lack of information on any other chips besides the GK104 & GK107. I would be surprised if the GK106 is a 128bit card, most likely it's 192bit and should provide competition for the 7700's & maybe 7850, but unlikely the latter.

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I'm thinking GK106 would be 768 CCs and 192-bit bus with up to 6 GHz GDDR5 (is that memory too expensive or in short supply for that segment?) or 256-bit bus and 4-5 GHz GDDR5. Performance wise I expect it to be worse compared to Pitcairn than GK104 is to Tahiti, mainly because Pitcairn has 62.5% the SPs of Tahiti, not 50%.

This seems similar to the G92 generation. There was the G92, a roughly 1/2 G92 (G94), and a roughly 1/4 G92 (G96), plus a larger and more compute-focused chip afterwards (GT200). I don't think GK110 will have as much of a CC increase over GK104 as GT200 did over G92. I'm thinking 2304 CCs if a SMX = 192 CCs and 2048-2560 CCs if a SMX = 128 or 256 CCs.

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Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101

I cannot reveal sources but I can tell you that vendors alone (Asus, GBT, etc) are making profits nearly twice as large as they make on the 7970.

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Hahaha.... You might want to recheck your sources cause they are BSing you.

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Originally Posted by [XC] Oj101

Not with four phase power, an elementary PCB and twin 6-pin connectors. That all points towards mid range (GTX x60).

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Yeah well those points also contribute, so this would have been a phenomenal mid range card and if there re no further releases until GK110 then this will make a great 760Ti Along with the $299 price tag .....

:D

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Originally Posted by UrbanSmooth

Are you so easily disillusioned? LOL, looks like Nvidia's plan is working easily on you, friend.

It's a known fact that GK104 is the Kepler mid-range GPU.

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Your the one disillusioned.... It IS NOT a mid range part until a higher end part hits the market. For now it IS the high end part.

I also asked you for proof that the vendors are making a huge profit. SHOW ME PROOF!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Russian

Most of what you've said is right... except for that exchange.

Think of it this way... Marketing has little to do with the actual price of the cards and which cards get sold as what.

The truth is that the management of the company makes such decisions and when they see that their middle range card is on-par with the performance of AMD's high-end there is absolutely no reason for them to release it as a mid-range card at mid-range prices. If they're going to beat AMD in either case, why should they be doing it for $200 (or $250) less? Realistically, this will be one of the first GPUs in a LONG time that NVIDIA is actually able to sell at a huge profit margin without having to sell it as a TESLA or Quadro. Because of this, I hope, we'll see NVIDIA coming out with more less expensive GPUs with better performance... AND once the GK110 stuff comes out, I think we may see a STEEP drop in GK104 prices which would be good for everyone.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYMnAUGFuG0