What Features would make your ideal watercooling case?

i have purchased TT case once... and that was it.

front panel was solid, but everything else seemed flimsy and did not scream quality to me.
the colors was too childish (purple + orange + acid green, not including case color) anywhoo, even one color is a color too many.
the internal frames too flimsy
constant rattling

LL case, when their panels were heavier & thicker, impressed me at first sight.

now on your most recent post about "preinstalled"

if you're catering to the enthusiasts... just don't do it.
i'm sure everyone knows, there's your vendor margin, your margin, labor, freight and all the other minor costs here and there so you can write up another "feature" that you're offering... while this may work for the mothers buying parts at best buys, the best feature you can offer is versatility... and giving us the ability to chose.

the right tool for the job... i think it's clear that most of us are here to figure that out and/or help each other figure that out... if you're going to make that decision for someone else, then you're asking the wrong forum/target consumer... a pre-configured system will/may work for the folks who will shop at walmart/staples/comp-usa but a vast majority of the folks here purchase our well researched components, from all over country and even overseas...

that alone should give you an idea of how THIS community will respond to a pre-installed system.

good luck... and btw, make it easy on yourself, contact mick64 and buy the design from him and produce that so it can MSRP under $350 range... you will be much loved... and i'm sure that with your manufacturing resource, you can indeed do this, even if the RMB did go up over the dollar...

and btw, branding is important but... make the Tt logo very low key... if they like your product, they will go far to find out who made it...







but i'm curious...

are you looking for input from the enthusiasts to raise the bar of your products and cater the wc'ing community? or are you looking for input to implement on a more general consumer product with "enthusiast" features?

Mick64's rig is fantastic, but it is tailored for the most xtreme water cooling systems, which is not in majority. (Except on this forum maybe ^^ )

Also, I think our TT friend here has enough information to work on. How about taking 1 week to draft, then come back to us for critique on it?

kinghong: preconfigured and this community .. if you were referring to preinstalled LC sys, fine. If you referred modding/cutting and such of case .. at least my 2 cents would be - given choice back then when i just started at this hobby i'd gladly skip need to mod and went for just install PC & LC components "screwdriver assemble mod". There wasn't such choice back then though (i don't count DD/MM for other but no-need to mod reasons of personal taste (dislike for transparent cases of DD/pricing for both/industrial rough looks of MM), but except them there simply wasn't any alternative).

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Originally Posted by Tt Enthusiasts

I understand very few if ANY of you would use this... I think that point has been more than made at this juncture :)

But we do not make products for just one group and besides the Xtreme users there are many who like the simplicity of a preinstalled unit just because it relieves alot of component selection and placement worries.

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First point: Simplicity? Whats so hard about screwing a radiator to a grill? IMO, nothing TT offers is so simplified that there is a legitimate customer base out there. TT customers just dont know what they are buying. They are usually kids that fall prey to your elegant 5th grad PR hype and flashy colors/lights (as stated before). They will undoubtedly find their way here or some other forum where they will be enlightened. I dont know how, if you do at all, maintain customer loyalty.

"Placement worries" generally stem from nonsupporting cases that need modding. "Component worries" are generally non-existent as they are usually picked due to performance, quality, price, and looks. TT components loses on three counts. Bottom line, when it comes to basic watercooling, if the case supports it, it can be very easy.

Second Point: Thermaltake watercooling gear is, quite frankly (and no personal offense meant), crap. I know because ive used it. To say you market it to beginners upsets me because your gear has been prone to utter failure in the past. WTH is a beginner supposed to do when a pump fails, radiator leaks, acrylic cracks, or block becomes corroded due to Alu/Cu crap? They'll probably do what I did and watch their brand new 8800 and motherboard catch fire as their "brand new" watercooling kit spews "non conductive water from hell" through their brand new and newly cracked acrylic top'ed shthole of a block. Then they will cry to your ever helpful tech support who will politely tell them to F-off. Its not their fault I didnt know what I was doing. Bitter much? Yes I am :yepp:.

If you really want to see how to make products for "beginners" or the cheap builds, Swiftech is a good model to start from. Quality, innovation, design and user simplicity, all wrapped up in function :up:. And remember, TT has been digging a deep deep hole and its going to be a long climb out.

i agree with some things standrew says.

for beginners theres 2 things needed, simplicity and reliability. the swiftech MCR drive radiator/reservoir/pump combo is a great product that takes almost all the work out of watercooling. i have one myself due to the compact size, and it was scary how easily i built the loop.

things beginners need that i think will help get them into WCing:
built in fillport and possibly reservoir. this is a big one because most people do not like the idea of drilling holes in a case to put their own t-line and fillport. a proper case can have a nice recess for the hole or a raised up trim, so that any extra water falls right in and none goes down the side of the case (unless you really suck). the extra cost for this features is probably just 5$ but can cost much more if a reservoir is built in, but that offsets the cost of a reservoir.
warranty on parts. if something leaks or a pump fails, it sucks and you instantly get the idea stuck in your head that the brand sucks. a proper support system is mandatory to keep fear away.
an idiot proof guide for filling the system. either silver is already included in some component, or a safe additive is provided, etc. its confusing as hell to know what to use these days, and ive made many mistakes in the past due to all the miss-information out there. this features could be free or up to 10$ depending on the solution.

when it comes to the size of the case, there is no right answer, but there is a pretty obvious answer. if someone wants to fit a quad 140mm rad in their case, they are not beginners or have too much money and shouldnt be buying the best option as their learning experience. so fact is a good case should probably have room for a 120x3 up top, as the primary, and then maybe provide enough room in the front for an additional 120x2 if they are wiling to sacrifice all but 1-2 of their 5 1/2 slots (HDDs should have plenty of space though). the case would only be a little bigger than most mid towers being that its probably just an extra 2-3" deeper front to back.

in the end it should be possible to provide what new people need without having to spend more than 20$ over doing it all on their own (basically no case mods)

there is a huge range of 2 things when it comes to WCing, Complexity, and Cost. someone can go super cheap with heatercores and be very complex, or can go expensive with a MCR Drive and just need to cut 2 tubes and end up quite simple. now that we know the goal of the case, lets see if we can discuss what it takes to build something on the simplistic side, and cost effective side.

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Originally Posted by StAndrew

First point: Simplicity? Whats so hard about screwing a radiator to a grill? IMO, nothing TT offers is so simplified that there is a legitimate customer base out there. TT customers just dont know what they are buying. They are usually kids that fall prey to your elegant 5th grad PR hype and flashy colors/lights (as stated before). They will undoubtedly find their way here or some other forum where they will be enlightened. I dont know how, if you do at all, maintain customer loyalty.

"Placement worries" generally stem from nonsupporting cases that need modding. "Component worries" are generally non-existent as they are usually picked due to performance, quality, price, and looks. TT components loses on three counts. Bottom line, when it comes to basic watercooling, if the case supports it, it can be very easy.

Second Point: Thermaltake watercooling gear is, quite frankly (and no personal offense meant), crap. I know because ive used it. To say you market it to beginners upsets me because your gear has been prone to utter failure in the past. WTH is a beginner supposed to do when a pump fails, radiator leaks, acrylic cracks, or block becomes corroded due to Alu/Cu crap? They'll probably do what I did and watch their brand new 8800 and motherboard catch fire as their "brand new" watercooling kit spews "non conductive water from hell" through their brand new and newly cracked acrylic top'ed shthole of a block. Then they will cry to your ever helpful tech support who will politely tell them to F-off. Its not their fault I didnt know what I was doing. Bitter much? Yes I am :yepp:.

If you really want to see how to make products for "beginners" or the cheap builds, Swiftech is a good model to start from. Quality, innovation, design and user simplicity, all wrapped up in function :up:. And remember, TT has been digging a deep deep hole and its going to be a long climb out.

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I understand your "Previous" issues with the blocks and cracking, that is why the present models no longer have acrylic components. they have black composite tops that I have not experienced any issues with. Besides that as many are aware the use of copper/alu in same loop is not an issue with an anti corrosive issue but I do not want to enter into that dispute as it is a horse that has been beaten senselessly already...

As I stated previously I am working on what I can for the present LCS offerings... and I hope in the future to be able to look into enthusiast class offerings to cater to the more extreme community.

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Originally Posted by kinghong1970

i have purchased TT case once... and that was it.

front panel was solid, but everything else seemed flimsy and did not scream quality to me.
the colors was too childish (purple + orange + acid green, not including case color) anywhoo, even one color is a color too many.
the internal frames too flimsy
constant rattling

LL case, when their panels were heavier & thicker, impressed me at first sight.

now on your most recent post about "preinstalled"

if you're catering to the enthusiasts... just don't do it.
i'm sure everyone knows, there's your vendor margin, your margin, labor, freight and all the other minor costs here and there so you can write up another "feature" that you're offering... while this may work for the mothers buying parts at best buys, the best feature you can offer is versatility... and giving us the ability to chose.

the right tool for the job... i think it's clear that most of us are here to figure that out and/or help each other figure that out... if you're going to make that decision for someone else, then you're asking the wrong forum/target consumer... a pre-configured system will/may work for the folks who will shop at walmart/staples/comp-usa but a vast majority of the folks here purchase our well researched components, from all over country and even overseas...

that alone should give you an idea of how THIS community will respond to a pre-installed system.

good luck... and btw, make it easy on yourself, contact mick64 and buy the design from him and produce that so it can MSRP under $350 range... you will be much loved... and i'm sure that with your manufacturing resource, you can indeed do this, even if the RMB did go up over the dollar...

and btw, branding is important but... make the Tt logo very low key... if they like your product, they will go far to find out who made it...







but i'm curious...

are you looking for input from the enthusiasts to raise the bar of your products and cater the wc'ing community? or are you looking for input to implement on a more general consumer product with "enthusiast" features?

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I am hoping to offer more enthusiasts level products in the future, but right now I am trying to find what would be best fit for each level of users.

also a key is that while you may not care for a specific product does not mean every user agrees with you as some will like the same product you hate..

to put it simply, if everyone liked the same thing there would only be one car company in the world with only one model of car, but those are wildly different as well :) some you care for some are kinda meh.

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Originally Posted by Tt Enthusiasts

I understand your "Previous" issues with the blocks and cracking, that is why the present models no longer have acrylic components. they have black composite tops that I have not experienced any issues with. Besides that as many are aware the use of copper/alu in same loop is not an issue with an anti corrosive issue but I do not want to enter into that dispute as it is a horse that has been beaten senselessly already...

As I stated previously I am working on what I can for the present LCS offerings... and I hope in the future to be able to look into enthusiast class offerings to cater to the more extreme community.

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Yes, TT is changing, but they learn so slowly and are always a step behind the power curve. And even if you have worked out all of the bugs, your reputation is so tarnished nobody is paying attention anyways.

If you really want to break out of your current niche (stupid shiny crp), you need a "bang." With the ideas from this thread alone, you can easily shock the PC community with a break out case. If you legitimately listen and design a case with simplicity, usability, quality, and function in mind (and dont overprice it or slather it with gaudy PR hype and made up technology), I have a feeling you will be pleasantly surprised how many of us will start paying attention.

I for one will say that I dont buy based off of a Name, but based off of the product itself. Prove to my your product is quality and Ill buy/recommend it without a second thought. If you can convince the elitist that you are actually selling a quality product, then everyone else will jump on the TT bandwagon real quick.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by StAndrew

Prove to my your product is quality and Ill buy/recommend it without a second thought. If you can convince the elitist that you are actually selling a quality product, then everyone else will jump on the TT bandwagon real quick.

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:up:
So true. The word of mouth goes fast around this community, watercooling world is small. So far the community perceived TT as a low price / low quality brand (and pretty much bottom of the pile if you ask many around here), i look forward to the real serious efforts the brand will make to enter the "high quality" segment or at least elevate itself to "serious / recommendable" status.

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Originally Posted by Tt Enthusiasts

I understand your "Previous" issues with the blocks and cracking, that is why the present models no longer have acrylic components. they have black composite tops that I have not experienced any issues with. Besides that as many are aware the use of copper/alu in same loop is not an issue with an anti corrosive issue but I do not want to enter into that dispute as it is a horse that has been beaten senselessly already...

As I stated previously I am working on what I can for the present LCS offerings... and I hope in the future to be able to look into enthusiast class offerings to cater to the more extreme community.

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[You say MANY are aware. Does that include the full worldwide user base? The ones that know any better. Bad statement. I'll say under 20% even know anything about WC and the mixing of metals. They read the retail hype, thats enough for their poor uniformed souls.

I will beat that dead horse and many here will also till it's a pulp and untill you get that through the marketers head we will NEVER accept less than great stuff. Here at XS, it's all top notch users, mostly. You have to be honest, build quality from the Karma up to the product you release till even one of us will say, and WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, is Tt makes a GOOD product for watercooling. This is what my general way in your two threads are. BE HONEST, Make Quality. On EVERY product. On your home web page it kill us.

From the heart, change. It will take a long time, but lets not talk about beating a dead horse. In the Tt world, we users feel the horse is 100% alive and has an evil name for watercooling. It's still Tt, and till then, you should pray with your marketers till the evil is replaced with trusted products real watercoolers will buy and endorse.

Just release one awesome WC case or a kit that actually has quality written on it. And have it tested, surprise us. I used to be a TQM manager. Amaze the customer, make them happy at OUR level here. And make kits for the new folks that don't break at 6 months.......... Karma.

I'm soo done here. Made myself mad.

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Originally Posted by Tt Enthusiasts

I am hoping to offer more enthusiasts level products in the future, but right now I am trying to find what would be best fit for each level of users.

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Then maybe start with kiddy gaming forums or [H] and come back when your serious about fulfilling enthusiasts requirements. :shrug:

I'm starting to think I should dig out my old sig. :shakes:

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Then maybe start with kiddy gaming forums or [H] and come back when your serious about fulfilling enthusiasts requirements. :shrug:

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everyone had to start somewhere, and most of us know the path from beginners to xtremists, while other sites might just have beginners who dont know what they really should know. i think he came to the right place, but we discussed the wrong question.

I dont think TT is ready to change. They may innovate a little and use some of the ideas posted, but an innovated turd is still a turd. This thread is about ideas for a case, but what TT really needs is an entire revamp. I think someone mentioned this before and Im going to second it. TT needs to fire all of there product designers.

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Originally Posted by StAndrew

I dont think TT is ready to change. They may innovate a little and use some of the ideas posted, but an innovated turd is still a turd. This thread is about ideas for a case, but what TT really needs is an entire revamp. I think someone mentioned this before and Im going to second it. TT needs to fire all of there product designers.

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If we were not ready for a change I would not be here.

Thanks for the feedback though. I will let you guys know once a sample is ready to be shown :D

Well I would be lying to say Im not intrigued. If TT can make a decent product, Ill be pleasantly surprised.

Again, good luck.

At first i kind of wished to advise slowing down thread going sidetracked in offtopic debris, but then i recalled TT's post about finishing gathering feedback for OP, so why not keep on discussing things if that's what interesting, and gonna add some offtopic of my own :)

TT Enhusiasts: btw, really. While profit margins for LC sys made from best/proven components might be less, imho it's worth to go that route. After all, doesn't RMAed TT LC systems or components of them + hits to vendor reputation cut a lot in profits too? There are lot of tried and true components at this hobby, pricing for them probably can be brought down less then retail prices too for bigger OEM orders. Imho there are lot of veterans in this community that might be willing to help to assemble less flawed reliability wise and adequate/competitive in cooling performance sets for selling as separate kits or integrating into your cases. +TT will spend way less on reinventing bicycle (with incompetitive results produced so far). Usage of standard of the shelf components will also ease replacement/upgrade/expanding in future. Right now there is no ready made integrated LC by TT/Corsair/Asetek/alikes that i can truly really recommend. Each has different set of flaws/inefficiencies making choice from 'which is best' to 'which sucks less'. Best actually recommendable happen to be not from those ones but sets of standard components like Swiftech Edge/EK H2O/XSPC Rasa sets, where while some might have some small flaws/inefficiencies (eg. because of limiting themselves to only their own products some components might be not of best possible kind), they still offer much better overall value with less flaws vs those integrated kits, usually priced lower then individual components bought separately and offer user set of everything needed in kit just like in integrated kits.

agreed

I remember my first setup was a bigwater loop for $89 or so. Now its a custom loop that cost way to much. I could never recommend a Tt product now, but everybody starts somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Conumdrum

[You say MANY are aware. Does that include the full worldwide user base? The ones that know any better. Bad statement. I'll say under 20% even know anything about WC and the mixing of metals. They read the retail hype, thats enough for their poor uniformed souls.

I will beat that dead horse and many here will also till it's a pulp and untill you get that through the marketers head we will NEVER accept less than great stuff. Here at XS, it's all top notch users, mostly. You have to be honest, build quality from the Karma up to the product you release till even one of us will say, and WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, is Tt makes a GOOD product for watercooling. This is what my general way in your two threads are. BE HONEST, Make Quality. On EVERY product. On your home web page it kill us.

From the heart, change. It will take a long time, but lets not talk about beating a dead horse. In the Tt world, we users feel the horse is 100% alive and has an evil name for watercooling. It's still Tt, and till then, you should pray with your marketers till the evil is replaced with trusted products real watercoolers will buy and endorse.

Just release one awesome WC case or a kit that actually has quality written on it. And have it tested, surprise us. I used to be a TQM manager. Amaze the customer, make them happy at OUR level here. And make kits for the new folks that don't break at 6 months.......... Karma.

I'm soo done here. Made myself mad.

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Thank you for your honesty. I will definitely do what I can to bring you guys something you will be much happier with.

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Originally Posted by StAndrew

Well I would be lying to say Im not intrigued. If TT can make a decent product, Ill be pleasantly surprised.

Again, good luck.

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We make some very good products I just believe like I stated when I first came to this forum that for the most part the enthusiast market had not been targeted as a group we had catered to with any definition.

This is what I am here to try and change.

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Originally Posted by Waterlogged

Then maybe start with kiddy gaming forums or [H] and come back when your serious about fulfilling enthusiasts requirements. :shrug:

I'm starting to think I should dig out my old sig. :shakes:

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By every level of user I was referring to those who want the all out "no expense spared mega full tower LCS chassis" vs those who want a LCS chassis that is just easier to work with and still has the look that is more pleasing to the mass of your community. while the huge mega LCS chassis may appeal to the hardcore LCS guys there are many who want a more affordable chassis that is not huge like the TJ11..

I agree the TJ11 is a great chassis to build a liquid cooled rig in as the areas to mount the LCS is excellent and many features make it easy to integrate.

now im trying to collect what features you guys like from these kinds of chassis so that I can work with my team to see what we can do to offer a better chassis for you.

This is by no means an overnight ordeal but I am here to take your guys questions or feedback. and yes I am looking for what options you guys would want however I am getting alot of the same feedback which is excellent... because if everyone wanted something different then it would not be feasible as everyone is gonna want their own style but then again we cant really make everyones "perfect" chassis but we cant try to meat as many of the intersecting points as possible.

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Originally Posted by the_dope_chaud

Attachment 120538

Lolwhut ?


This is what we DONT want....

http://www.techpowerup.com/152662/Th...ng-System.html

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Hello,

I would like to circle back on this one for a moment and while you say this is what you dont want... it looks more like the wording is an issue but please feel free to detail what it is that is an issue or why you dont want it.

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Originally Posted by Conumdrum

Sorry, IFMU, your right. Tt has to still support other users.

Hopefully Tt (OP) has the input given by many users here to make/surpass all of the multitudes of specialty case vendors out there.

With Tt financing and manufacturing channels, I hope for a game changer.

My bad I suppose, awaiting results.

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LOL... no u dont..

It is impossible to cater to everyone because then the word NICHE would never exist.

You can not take a compact air case... with guys who only know AIR cases and have him build a water case.

Its like telling a guy who builds V12 Cars to put a V12 inside a Honda Civic Body... it just wont happen unless ur a godly modder.


TT... u guys need to GIVE UP some of your audience for his line.
You need to ASK yourself.. if this case for the LC community? or is this case designed for AIR, and some idiot at your company said OH lets add a rad chamber and an alu radiator?

This doesnt work bro... i have been telling u MANY MANY MANY MANY TIMES....

U can not fit a circle in a star hole... and ur trying to do that..

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Originally Posted by NaeKuh

LOL... no u dont..

It is impossible to cater to everyone because then the word NICHE would never exist.

You can not take a compact air case... with guys who only know AIR cases and have him build a water case.

Its like telling a guy who builds V12 Cars to put a V12 inside a Honda Civic Body... it just wont happen unless ur a godly modder.


TT... u guys need to GIVE UP some of your audience for his line.
You need to ASK yourself.. if this case for the LC community? or is this case designed for AIR, and some idiot at your company said OH lets add a rad chamber and an alu radiator?

This doesnt work bro... i have been telling u MANY MANY MANY MANY TIMES....

U can not fit a circle in a star hole... and ur trying to do that..

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LOL!! well stated and I agree, were not talking a commander here... were not talking an existing chassis....

im trying to get these guys thinking in a nice sleek design like what not only you guys like but I do as well...

I have built in a TJ07 before...

but I know this will probably not be received well but I do believe you are a lil wrong as there can be more than one LCS chassis... not everyone wants a uber huge chassis, maybe someone wants a nice midtower that can fit single or dual 240 rads but isnt a monster..

but I definitely want to do an awesome ultimate LCS case as it would be my next build for sure but i gotta get the ideas then see if its feasible.


EDIT: please remember guys im not just some marketer here trying to BS you into liking us or something... im trying to fix what you guys dont like and make it better.

style is priority number 1 sadly, and that alone makes a very wide range of cases even if they all have a similar goal of being "typical"
then as you fix things it becomes more of a niche product and then you cater to even less people because of style + features has to match

the only recommendations i have if you want to have something popular and as close to perfect as possible is:
keep it clean.
easy to remove HDD cages or offer a variety of attachments that fit different needs.
and fan holes in the top, bottom and front so you can mount a rad in either of the 3 spots.

i think the price range you want to aim for is around 125-175$, nomatter what people spend about 80$ on something half decent, and more than 200$ can scare away alot of people. so around that price, what can be done?
an abundance of fan filters that have some decent look to them, and easy to take out.
high quality parts (aka no plastic, but can still be easy to work with)
grommets for wire management.
PSU that can be at the top or bottom with a spare cover plate that has holes for tubing?
modular drive racks with MANY configuration options (one type of rack rack that holds 2-3 vertical HDDs to give room for longer GPUs or a front mounted Rad, or another option that holds just 2-3 horizontally so you have space in the bottom for a Rad or Pump, or the typical one that holds 4-5 HDDs horizontally, and the can all be attached to each other in any order, with the vertical narrow one that can be fit more toward the front, or back or centered giving a few extra inches of room in whatever direction needed) -i might have to mock this idea up for it to make more sense