Missed that..I was writing and got called away while doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerica
Good, then there's two of us saying to try it.:up:
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Missed that..I was writing and got called away while doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerica
Good, then there's two of us saying to try it.:up:
Farm-09 AS5 vs D7 - re-test after HW shuffle from previous test. Like SiG's machine, this one seems to be an outlier on the test. Looking at the spread patterns you can see that the CPU looks convex. It begs to be lapped, which I will do only when Tasty has had his way with this setup.
Farm-09 is my bench rig, sitting open on the bench. It has a Q6600 on an Abit IP35 Pro. It is running at stock for the last couple of weeks for this test. (It will get clocked back up as soon as the last AS5 cures....;) I can't STAND stock speed anymore....:shakes: )
It has a TRUE with a Scythe fan and a 120 mm 110 CFM fan blowing from left to right WRT to the front of the mobo.
Short story results up front, detailed data below.....I tried four different runs.
1. The first was AS5, pea blob, which was allowed to cure.
2. The second was D7, pea blob, Also allowed time to cure, but never did in the time allowed.
3. The third test was the cross pattern, run for 5.5 days. Again, never changed with the exception of a modification my lab assistant and her partner made during an intense game of hide-and-seek. Noted below.... This may perhaps turn out to be a "eureka" event.....
4. The fourth test was back to AS5, pea blob, to re-validate my results, which so far look consistent with run #1. The last piece of data I will add to this post is the cure temps of AS5 on test #4.
EDIT 4/15: I added cure Data to the below with spread pics. Any further edited text is in italics through this post. I also added the start of test #5 Shin Etsu X23-7783....
5. Shin Etsu X23-7783, pea blob
Bottom line - The cured AS5 from test #1 outperformed the D7, at load, in this particular case, over the time tested. The second AS5 test #4 was on par with D7. The I don't know why, other than the D7 is so much thicker, and perhaps with the convex CPU, that made the difference. A theory is that due to the convex shape, and the big difference in consistency, the AS5 was better able to form a thinner interface on the smaller, critical contact point. OK, now to the details.....
Side note - I cleaned the be-jeebers out of the TRUE and CPU on changing pastes. I used acetone and cleaned the AS5 and D7 so hard, it's near impossible to read the chip label now. As noted before, D7 also makes good polish!!
Test #1 was with AS5, healthy pea blob. Pic below.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...f92as5blob.jpg
I'll save results for below. Here's the spread from the AS5 on breakdown. this is after cure time. It took about 24 hours for a significant temp drop from curing to show up with AS5. I think cure time was accelerated using the 50% profile with EIST enabled. I'll also note that AS5 is much thinner than D7. Shin Etsu is closer to D7 in consistency.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...5CPUspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
Note the fine spot in the middle. It appears to be where the AS5 had the closest contact after the cure. This will get the pressure film test when it gets here.
Test #2 - Here's the intial pea blob of D7
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...tD7peablob.jpg
Here's the spread pics
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...aCPUspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
Test #3 - For this next test I used the cross pattern. I found I got good coverage with this in prior passes and figured I'd give it a whirl on this pass.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...dcrossblob.jpg
I also opted to put a little more weight on the matter. The juice jug provides a few more pounds. (I don't think it matters what flavor, but I may be mistaken...:ROTF: )
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...juicejug-1.jpg
Here's the breakdown spread of the cross mount after 5.5 days.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...sCPUspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
Test #4 - This is initial pea blob for the AS5 re-test
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...f93as5blob.jpg
EDIT: Here's the spread pics of test #4 AS5
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...TRUEspread.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...5CPUspread.jpg
EDIT: Here's the beginning of Test #5, Shin Etsu X23-7783
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s...783peablob.jpg
OK, the results……..
Test #1 AS5, Pea blob
AS5 – Temps
Idle: 15min time running
Ambient 23.9 C
CoreTemp – 33,34,31,31
Load:
BOINC as load – 15min time running
Ambient 24.2 C
CoreTemp – 47,49,44,45
Load: CURED
BOINC as load – Approx 22 hours time running
Ambient 23.2 C
CoreTemp – 39,42,37,38 (Restarted machine to verify numbers. They were the same about 10 minutes into restart. Verified results…)
Test #2 D7, Pea blob
D7 - Temps
Idle: 10min time running
Ambient 23.9 C
CoreTemp – 30,31,27,27
Load:
BOINC as load – 15min time running
Ambient 23.9 C
CoreTemp – 44,47,42,43
Load: at 21 hours
BOINC as load – Approx 21 hours time running
Ambient 24.7 C
CoreTemp – 44,47,43,43
(Pulled early since I thought my mount was bad. Turns out it was good….)
Test #3 D7, cross pattern
D7 - Temps
Idle: 10min time running
Ambient 24.8 C
CoreTemp – 32,33,30,30
Load:
BOINC as load – 60min time running
Ambient 25.4 C
CoreTemp – 45,48,43,44
Load: at 3 days (Before Bottle knock off…)
BOINC as load – Approx 3 days time running
Ambient 21.6 C
CoreTemp – 42,44,39,40
NOTE – What occurred between these two data points is that “someone” bumped the bench and knocked the bottle off the cooler. They didn’t put it back on, otherwise I would not have known it happened…..Note that the temps got about 2 degrees worse. This is like I noted in a prior post about “getting gorilla” on the mount and blowing the temps. On a convex mount like this, is it perhaps that in rocking the mount, it removes the paste from the outer edges, thereby reducing overall TIM contact? Seems logical….
Load: at 5.5 days (After Bottle knock off…)
BOINC as load – Approx 5.5 days time running
Ambient 24.7 C
CoreTemp – 46,49,44,45
Test #4 AS5, Pea blob
AS5 - Temps
Idle: 15min time running
Ambient 24.8 C
CoreTemp – 31,32,28,28
Load:
BOINC as load – 2 hours time running
Ambient 23.5 C
CoreTemp – 44,47,43,44
EDIT:
Load: at 1.5 days cured (Before pushing TRUE)
BOINC as load – Approx 1.5 days time running
Ambient 20.4 C
CoreTemp – 39,43,38,39
NOTE – What occurred between these two data points is that I pushed on the top of the TRUE with only about 10 pounds of pressure while trying not to rock it. It was enough to blow the mount such that the temps never recovered....Delicate stuff this AS5.....I cranked much harder on the D7 in order to blow it's mount...
Load: at 1.6 days (blown Mount)
BOINC as load – Approx 1.6 days time running
Ambient 21.1 C
CoreTemp – 42,44,39,40
Test #5 Shin Etsu X23-7783, Pea blob
Shin - Temps
Idle: 15min time running
Ambient 23.7 C
CoreTemp – 27,30,27,27
Load:
BOINC as load – 15 min time running
Ambient 23.7 C
CoreTemp – 43,46,42,43
Figuring for ambient changes, the first cured AS5, at load, was cooler than either D7 test. I must have had a great mount on the AS5. I’ll add the cure data for the second AS5 test when it comes in then I’ll update this post. D7 does very well on the idle tests, but not against the cured and loaded AS5 run.
Based on all the data others have provided, as well as my own, I'm starting to form an opinion. (Note that this is an opinion only, not a scientific conclusion fully supported by data....) I think D7 is a very good long term TIM. I've come to trust it over time, much like I trust Shin Etsu. I must say I was surprised to see it beat my last Farm 07 Shin Etsu post. I will be re-visiting that when the new tubes come from Qouc at Petra's. I'd like to know about this outlier. I don't think the AS5 mount would last over 6 months, but who knows. I may take it that long on the final test pass....
I still find it interesting that rocking the mount on a convex case causes that much trouble. I guess it makes sense when you think about it. I would guess any paste would have this problem. When I get ready to break down this AS5 mount, I'll do the same thing and see what happens.
EDIT: The second AS5 mount confirmed a couple of things. The mount I had on the first test was great....There is variance in the AS5 mounts though. The D7 mounts are more consistent. The other thing of note was how easy it was to blow the AS5 mount as compared to the D7 mount. It really took much less pressure to do it. I intentionally rocked the D7 mounts in order to blow them...:up:
The Shin Etsu (test #5) is looking good so far. This paste has a distinct cure time and almost triples it's thermal conductivity in that time. That's according to the Shin data sheets. We'll see real world results with this mount, one I consider a problem child....:eek: If I can blow this mount as easy as the AS5, I must say I'm nearly done testing for myself, I'll be a D7 fan. Any further testing will be for Tasty (Andrew).
SOAPBOX: Like my rather conservative crunching clocks, I want something I don't have to dork with, worry about, or not have confidence that it will crunch without me for months....The Tortoise and the Hare, a lesson well learned over the years.....:END SOAPBOX
This CPU and cooler are definite candidates for a lap job, and will get it as soon as I’m done testing this configuration. EDIT: Look at the mill marks on that TRUE!! Disgusting...:eek:
Tasty, this will definitely get the film test. I’ll hold this configuration as long as you want me to try stuff on it. As stated above, the clock will go back up, but I’ll baseline that. If needed for a particular test, I can downclock again if we are trying to match an earlier data point. This is my bench machine, so it’s easy to dork with it….
One issue I was thinking about is how we execute the film test. I could see in mounting we will have to be careful not to give false reads on the film by cranking the cooler. On the other hand, this may provide evidence of different coolers pulling stuff astray by the mount conditions. The TRUE maybe particularly so…..We should discuss this a bit among those who are receiving film…..This is new ground for me, you paid for the film, so you tell me your thoughts, and maybe the folks here will be able to refine this some.
Send SiG some film, whether he asked for it or not. Now I have to know why we are "outliers"…..I’m sure the good Doctor will indulge one of his best patients….:rofl: :ROTF: :up:
I'd like to say thanks to Tasty (Andrew) for providing this test opportunity to us. I've learned a LOT more about how I approach TIM application and treatment.
Now, when can I have some Nehalems to test this knowledge out on????:shrug:
Regards,
Bob
I noticed stuff called Liquid Metal Pro in that thread so I looked it up. Sounds impressive, but the performance seems to be no better than D7, and it's a royal pain to apply and clean up. I'd bet the LMP is evil toxic, too.
It is known as the BEST TIM out there, but I understand it is a huge PITA to deal with. Particularly if you want to ever get your cooler pried off your CPU. Others can comment with experience here, I'm sure...:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by D_A
The comparisons I saw only showed it to be 3-5 degrees better than AS5, which is what the D7 seems to be getting.
@Bob,
I did ask for the film for testing, I would like to know why my results varied from most. I suspect my convex waterblock has something to do with the thicker TIM.
My experience with LMP was that it is the best TIM that I have used. The idle to load temps were very close and if you through more voltage at the cpu the temps barely moved. Cleanup is another story though.
What is the stuff like? Is it a solid?Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
Like the name implies, it is a liquid metal. The surfaces must be extremely clean or the stuff just "puddles" up. But when everything is super clean a tiny amount spreads over the entire CPU leaving a very thin film of liquid metal. It is metal so it is very conductive so caution must be taken not to use too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martijn
Cleanup is a biatch, you have to lap the surfaces to remove it. Some people have experienced fusing of the block and CPU. But the performance was excellent.
123bob, SiGfever, Movie man, Emerica, 64dragon and others, Great stuff and thanks for the great work you guys are doing.
I have been traveling for the last few days and just got back tonight. I will start tomorrow figuring what's what with the pressure film. I will spend some time talking to the company rep to make sure we are on the right track in how we apply it.
I got a chance to try it once before I left and it left me with a lot to think about. The film comes in two sheets, a loaded one and a negative "print" sheet.
There were definite high points which were clearly defined, the lows were fairly broad across the test strip which makes me think that doing the test with the compound in place may provide a more even distribution in pressure.
So a probable method would be to apply the paste then place a loaded strip on the paste with the print strip then mount the sink side so it remains "clean".
It may take some doing to get a good reading. For instance if you torque from one side then the other you may get an uneven pressure distribution. Might need a second person to hold the sink to prevent that from happening. We will have to think of a good way to do this.
The comparison chart of the raw data is a little subjective and I think the best way to do this is to send you guys a sample envelope where maybe it is numbered so we can trace it to person/system and then put that envelope in a self addressed envelope back to me and we go with the full boat color digital analysis along with excel files for everybody.
Temperature has to be noted along with Humidity - Maybe logging on to your local weather report and taking the humidity reading there would be sufficient?
I believe I have enough for everybody to run several tests and then submit what they think are their best samples. Anybody else have any ideas?
Thanks again
Andrew
i got my free sample from SPI the other day but have not had time to try it yet. Also I was worried about how to place it in the system because the fuzion gets screwed down on one side then the other. I don't think it will give very good readings. after i test it they said I should send it back to them.
I have learned a lot thanks to you Andrew!! Thanks for helping me learn!
No, my thanks to you. Excellent product that works well.Quote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
I'm not the type like 123bob and the others to sit down and do the analysis.
I'm more a seat of the pants type of person.
If I feel inside that the product is good I go with it.
I've never used anything but AS5 and once ceramique as they did what I needed at the speeds I was running.
This just plain works better from what I've seen and thats all I need to know.
A solid 3-4C temp drop on a known machine with no other variables and there is also a factor that during this testing time winter broke here and the house temps went up maybe 2-4F but the gain remained.
I have no issues recomending it to people and thats not BS for the "free" TIM.
That's how I feel and the numbers I see support it.
Many Thanks!:up:
My main concern is how to apply even mounting pressure while tightening the blocks down. Even with a criss-cross tightening pattern it will compress the film just like you are squeezing out a tube of toothpaste. Getting someone to help with the mount is not real world and I do not know if this should be done because your average user if told two people are required to apply the Tim might choose not to try. Just a thought.
Since I measure the mounting plate distance each time to replicate the previous mount I feel fairly confident in the pressure being constant but a small variance is probable. I know that diamond is more conductive than other substances so my results puzzle me, they should have shown a couple degree improvement but did not putting me outside your other test subjects.
John
I agree with you Dave. I have also told a few people that they should get and try this stuff and also told them to read this thread if they didn't be leave me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Movieman
I did the "cross" pattern on mine and with the TRUE I tighten it down as one would a auto wheel and in small steps of maybe 1/2 a screw turn at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
I'm not saying it's the best way, but it's always worked for me.
I've always thought there was a lot of voodoo witch doctor kind of thinking over the last few years as regards the "proper" way to put on thermal paste and most of it has ignored the placement of the cores under the IHS.
I can see a "drop like a grain of rice" concept for a single core but not on a dual or quad. Different locations of the cores underneath that IHS and that has to be taken into consideration.
OK, you can all flame the old guy now for taking a stand on this..:D
So, i guess, i will try D7 for my next build, I am a die hard As Ceramic fan but there is to much info that says it's time to change...
thanks for your time and effort!
Well Maybe it's an issue maybe not. I am trying to anticipate what problems we may encounter. Hopefully the company rep can provide some insight.Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGfever
There is also a time factor involved in this- less than ten seconds - more than ten seconds. When I talked to the rep he also mentioned longer term conditions like overnight, something like this may average out the initial imbalances would be perhaps another way to go.
Careful sequential tightening may be adequate
Here it is and this is how I feel about it:Quote:
Originally Posted by systemviper
If you don't think it's better than the Ceramique I will paypal you the $7.00 you spent for the tube plus whatever shipping they charge you.:up:
http://www.petrastechshop.com/icdi7cathco.html
I always have used ceramique and now I have been testing the D7 and I am getting more and more impressed. My first thoughts on it was that it was not that good but my temps are making me change my mind!Quote:
Originally Posted by systemviper
We can be careful with how we mount. I think we will have more suggestions when we try out the first piece. I have no clue how this stuff behaves. The company rep's suggestions should prove useful.
Whatever we do, we should work within some set of guidelines so we don't return a bunch of "blown" film to you.
I would think if we mount with paste, we may have an issue of false results on the film since the paste will spread out, with some force, to the edges. Without paste though, we are really just looking at the contact profile of the bare metal. I don't know what is better.....I suppose we'll see.
Regards,
Bob
I was planning on doing it with out any paste I don't see the paste as helping in any way. the sheet that SPI sent me is kind of neat and i don't see a way that it could be done with the paste on either.Quote:
Originally Posted by 123bob
Paste has an "e" on the end. :D
no problem Andrew. I haven't done much yet since I have tried the D7 yet but data is data. As an engineering student, I understand that completely. I'm egar to put on the D7 but i'll let the shin etsu sit as long as possible. I've got a busy week so I may get to changing it on saturdayQuote:
Originally Posted by tastymannatees
yeah it does! oupsQuote:
Originally Posted by Gamekiller
my spelling suck you will just have to deal with it or have Dave ban me :rofl: :rofl:
Just a note to all that I edited post #202 with more data from Test #4, added Test #5, and some observations about how easy it was to blow the AS5 mount on this machine.
Looking forward to the film testing, particularly on this machine.
To LittleOwl, and all, I understand from Tasty's post above that the film comes in two halves. A loaded "ink" portion and a "capture" portion. You would put the loaded portion on the paste, put the "capture" portion on the sink, and put the thing together. Then pull it apart, take the "capture" portion and send it in. Sounds a bit like an old Polaroid process here. I would suggest you don't do anything to your sample until we figure out how to best handle this stuff. It's a one-time shot and we are all should spend a bit of time figuring out how this is best done, before burning through lots of film.
Bob
I had my Telecon with the pressure film rep.
He Recommends the test be done dry, basically what we are looking for are mechanical inconsistencies and by filling in the voids it tends to obscure the contact issues.
Relative humidity is not a problem and can be ignored for our tests.
Room temperature should be noted.
CPU should be room temp
A careful clamping sequence should be adequate.
10 - 15 min exposure for the film should work fine - Once you reach max exposure/pressure the film stops further rupturing of the color nodules. as long as exposure is not more than 24hours nothing else has to be noted
Question. IHS sample cut size, I am looking at around 1.2 inches square per sample or maybe 1.5 in. to make it easier to get a full print. I do not want to go too much larger as I would like to send as many test samples as I can to each participant. Will 1.5 Inch square do it for you guys?
We will do the full color mapping analysis on each one. It will take me a day or so to get organized on mailing,tracking results method so samples will probably go out Friday.
Added what we will get from the analysis
With the Topaq® Advanced Pressure Analysis
System, statistical data and detailed digital
visuals can be extracted from Pressurex®
pressure indicating sensor films.
Topaq® enables a wealth of statistical information and high
resolution visuals to be extracted from Pressurex® - greatly
enhancing the ability of the sensor film to define pressure
distribution and magnitude. Vital statistics like total force,
average pressure, total square inches of contact and standard
deviation can be determined with ±4% accuracy using
Topaq®’s advanced analysis capabilities. Topaq® can also
render histogramic and population statistics on
user-defined regions of interest.
Features
• 2D pseudocolor display of pressure distribution
• 3D topographical view
• Graphical display of pressure data
• Graphical view of data along a user-defined line
• Detailed pressure statistics