Crysis 2 being re-designed for GTX580

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Originally Posted by E30M3

i just think that it is really good
all that nVidia does for PC Game Players
let's just be happy about that:)

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It's good ... for people who buy nvidia. Hum.

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Originally Posted by cegras

It's good ... for people who buy nvidia. Hum.

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it is good. AMD are not excluded from tessellation, and tessellation is certainly a good improvement for PC gaming.

AMD did little with the tessellation engine on early DX11 cards; there was no need as there were no DX11 games. Nvidia architecture allows for better tessellation, and they are promoting this through paying for game designers to use it.

Now if AMD want to respond with a powerful tessellation unit, that is good in my books (which they are doing if you haven't noticed). This means the PC buyer is getting graphically better games than they would of.

This is what fair competition is all about. Physx is not about fair competition as AMD don't have free access to this. Tessellation however is free and a big improvement for all PC gamers.

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Originally Posted by s1nykuL

The thread topic concerns Nvidia bribing Crytec to change the content/coding or advertising logo's of Crysis 2 that it favours Nvidia hardware. To me, no matter which way you look at it this kind of bribery stinks. I would say the same if ATI were doing the bribing.




Now with all due respect;
You should perhaps go through your own posts and read them all very carefully before you accuse anybody of being a fanboy.

You have more or less responded to every post in this thread that has had anything positive to say regarding ATI, or negative to say regarding Nvidia with your own brand of dare I say it... fanboyism.


Yet you fail to respond to this post
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=135

I respectfully suggest chilling out a little. Your arguments do reek of fanaticism and you certainly don't owe Nvidia anything. Just like ATI they will never thank you for buying or verbally supporting their hardware, or get you unbanned from a forum.

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I see, another nvidia hater ( I saw your prior posts and already knew, not like sore thumbs can be hidden). Well, you've got plenty of company.

Bask in your collective threats against me.

Come on call in your buds and threaten me some more, that's how you do it ! Come on, a few more of you perhaps ?

Since that's ALL you have to say, WHINING about me, you've lost. MISERABLY.

Enjoy eachothers childish screeding together to "shut me up" as you whine and whine and whine more and more, and of course the thread is as dumb as you fellas and your whinng, for some time now - save for my lucid points, which NONE of you really have responded to.

Congratulations, I deserve to be elevated out of this pile of stupidity like RIGHT NOW !

All you could do was whine about nvidia "tactic" like a repeating bleating parrotsheep ? Really!? Wow.

That is so, so sad. You guys only have a couple stupid lines for all your entrenched hatred.

See ya later whiners! :rofl:

Enjoy all your misery ! :up:

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Originally Posted by Motiv

it is good. AMD are not excluded from tessellation, and tessellation is certainly a good improvement for PC gaming.

AMD did little with the tessellation engine on early DX11 cards; there was no need as there were no DX11 games. Nvidia architecture allows for better tessellation, and they are promoting this through paying for game designers to use it.

Now if AMD want to respond with a powerful tessellation unit, that is good in my books (which they are doing if you haven't noticed). This means the PC buyer is getting graphically better games than they would of.

This is what fair competition is all about. Physx is not about fair competition as AMD don't have free access to this. Tessellation however is free and a big improvement for all PC gamers.

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Good point. I do agree. BUT, as you can see, ATI (legacy woo!) is improving with Barts, and hopefully Cayman too. That is why the repeated mantra of many people was that first gen DX11 hardware is just DX10 with lip service to functionality.

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Matyrdom

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(Guys, he thinks he's a matyr but in reality he's the village idiot)

Also, good job responding to my last post, which, aside from a few snide remarks, attacked only your arguments.

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... save for my lucid points, which NONE of you really have responded to.

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Amazing.

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Originally Posted by cegras

Good point. I do agree. BUT, as you can see, ATI (legacy woo!) is improving with Barts, and hopefully Cayman too. That is why the repeated mantra of many people was that first gen DX11 hardware is just DX10 with lip service to functionality.

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Hasn't this always been the case with any new generation of card. How many people are loving the DX10 capabilities of the 8800 series :)

The biggest problem with PC gaming is the consoles. I'm all for PC manufacturers giving, us the PC gamer, more than a console version. As long as their competitors can do this too, then I'm all for it (competition is a wonderful thing :) )

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

I see, another nvidia hater. Well, you've got plenty of company.

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It appears to me that you see what you want to see regardless of any kind of reality.

Hate is a very negative emotion and life is far too short. However, I do dislike any corporate entity that buys favour. Nvidia have and do make great hardware which in the past I have been proud to own. As a corporate entity like so many others, their business practices leave a lot to be desired.

I won't comment further, I learned not to piss into the wind a long time ago.

I'll just sit back now with my popcorn.

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Originally Posted by Motiv

Hasn't this always been the case with any new generation of card. How many people are loving the DX10 capabilities of the 8800 series :)

The biggest problem with PC gaming is the consoles. I'm all for PC manufacturers giving, us the PC gamer, more than a console version. As long as their competitors can do this too, then I'm all for it (competition is a wonderful thing :) )

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True. Anyways, I only joined in to defend Manicdan.

Stupid discussions ... :shakes:

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Originally Posted by cegras

It's good ... for people who buy nvidia. Hum.

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Yep, I think that's the point. If you have a competitive advantage you push that advantage. Have you guys never taken an introductory business or economics class?

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Yep, I think that's the point. If you have a competitive advantage you push that advantage. Have you guys never taken an introductory business or economics class?

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Everything should be the same. Companies shouldn't be able to get advantages over one another or charge different prices.

Oh right, I forgot the first rule of business strategy is to not seek any advantages over your competition cause then the people who don't buy your products will think it's unfair. Silly me! :)

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Originally Posted by ElSel10

Everything should be the same. Companies shouldn't be able to get advantages over one another or charge different prices.

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Yes they should it's called competition. I under cut the prices charged by my competitors to get business. I can do this because I am not greedy and have low overheads.

I don't bribe the manufacturers of the tools I use to produce a tool that better suits the way I work to the detriment of my competitors. I would consider that unfair business practice, I reckon my competitors would too.

its like being ok with intel paying system builders to sell only intel on their mainstream and high end systems leaving amd only in budget boxes. paying suppliers of a product to selectively isolate your product to work better or excluse of others is plain cheating.

now if its just about getting their logo in the game thats another story advertising is advertising.

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Originally Posted by s1nykuL

I don't bribe the manufacturers of the tools I use to produce a tool that better suits the way I work to the detriment of my competitors. I would consider that unfair business practice, I reckon my competitors would too.

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Originally Posted by Dimitriman

paying suppliers of a product to selectively isolate your product to work better or excluse of others is plain cheating.

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I don't know if these poor analogies are just an attempt to demonize nVidia or if you guys really misunderstand the situation. If Crytek employs a level of tessellation that can take advantage of nVidia's hardware it's not to the "detriment" of AMD. That's like saying a piece of software that can submit useful work for four threads is to the detriment of a dual core CPU just because a quad core CPU would be faster.

Can someone explain why limiting tessellation workloads to whatever AMD cards can handle is a good idea? Note I'm not talking about overuse with no benefit here. I don't understand this notion that any tessellation workload that takes advantage of Fermi's geometry engine is somehow unfair to AMD and their customers.

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Originally Posted by Motiv

it is good. AMD are not excluded from tessellation, and tessellation is certainly a good improvement for PC gaming.

AMD did little with the tessellation engine on early DX11 cards; there was no need as there were no DX11 games. Nvidia architecture allows for better tessellation, and they are promoting this through paying for game designers to use it.

Now if AMD want to respond with a powerful tessellation unit, that is good in my books (which they are doing if you haven't noticed). This means the PC buyer is getting graphically better games than they would of.

This is what fair competition is all about. Physx is not about fair competition as AMD don't have free access to this. Tessellation however is free and a big improvement for all PC gamers.

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First Tesselation need to be used for bring a better graphics environnement. not for cripple the fps and look ugly .. there's a good balance to keep between tesselation and other graphics cost part..... most you increase the Tesselation, most you will need to decrease the quality of other graphics parts for maintain acceptable FPS( shadow, lights, AA, or the details of the object ).. you can't take a game who normally run @ 60fps and magically use Tesselation and have the same fps .... ... it will run @ 30fps, if you think 30fps is not acceptable, or you decrease the tesselation level from 4 to 2 or you decrease the quality of other parts ...

Second you are wrong if you think Nvidia think to the gamers, they think only to the buyers ... And they absolutely don't care how the game look, or is good, or even of boost the pc games industry ... all they want is review who can make them sell more cards.

in 1 year, you will get more games released, and developper will treat Tesselation like other features, if it bring something we use it, if it bring nothing to the quality, we don't use it. If you want to get more realism on wall, you make it for looking more realist, you don't put stones or brick with extreme dimension just for show tesselation is used.. ( look Unigine Extreme tesselation, you think the stones look realist ? )...

I don't think Crytek who have allways been on the first to use the new "technology" who was released ( DX10. DX10.1 ) need Nvidia for anything .. Specially cause they sell the CryEngine's and they want to be on top.

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

I don't know if these poor analogies are just an attempt to demonize nVidia or if you guys really misunderstand the situation. If Crytek employs a level of tessellation that can take advantage of nVidia's hardware it's not to the "detriment" of AMD. That's like saying a piece of software that can submit useful work for four threads is to the detriment of a dual core CPU just because a quad core CPU would be faster.

Can someone explain why limiting tessellation workloads to whatever AMD cards can handle is a good idea? Note I'm not talking about overuse with no benefit here. I don't understand this notion that any tessellation workload that takes advantage of Fermi's geometry engine is somehow unfair to AMD and their customers.

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and you know for a fact this is what will happen? they will simply but a slider that will go up to extreme tesselation and call it a day? or will they actually code their software tailor made to nvidia hardware and cuda leaving amd owners with their cards poorly optimized?
Believe me nvidia has an upper hand now with tesselation but if cayman really brings 3x the tesselation power of cypress as many sources point out, it wont be such a black and white win as people claim.

as for demonizing nvidia - get real. just because you like that company doesnt automatically give jhh a halo and make him a saint. this is a business practice discussion and just as you would happily go flame amd for optimizing af, nvidia will earn its criticism if it pays for fermi only optimizations in crysis.

having very high tesselation would be a good thing for all regardless if amd can keep up or not. having fermi optimized tesselation would be an attempt at making tesselation in crysis 2 proprietary.

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Originally Posted by Dimitriman

having very high tesselation would be a good thing for all regardless if amd can keep up or not.

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Thank you, glad you see that as well.

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having fermi optimized tesselation would be an attempt at making tesselation in crysis 2 proprietary.

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There's no such thing as "Fermi optimized tessellation". It's a standard DX11 feature with standard APIs. As for the rest of your post well it seems to be filled with things you think/hope/expect evil nVidia to do. I'll wait till we actually see what Crytek is working on before getting into all of that.

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Thank you, glad you see that as well.



There's no such thing as "Fermi optimized tessellation". It's a standard DX11 feature with standard APIs. As for the rest of your post well it seems to be filled with things you think/hope/expect evil nVidia to do. I'll wait till we actually see what Crytek is working on before getting into all of that.

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sure wait and see is fine. again though its not calling evils - but you cant deny that game makers can purposively make their game run better on 1 card than another. it has happened before and i find it cheating no matter if its amd or nvidia.

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Thank you, glad you see that as well.



There's no such thing as "Fermi optimized tessellation". It's a standard DX11 feature with standard APIs. As for the rest of your post well it seems to be filled with things you think/hope/expect evil nVidia to do. I'll wait till we actually see what Crytek is working on before getting into all of that.

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Apparently nvidia sees fit to include and take away features from DX libraries at will. Hint: Ubisoft.

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Originally Posted by Dimitriman

sure wait and see is fine. again though its not calling evils - but you cant deny that game makers can purposively make their game run better on 1 card than another. it has happened before and i find it cheating no matter if its amd or nvidia.

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Yes, it's possible to do so on purpose. It's also highly possible for it to happen depending on what algorithms or rendering techniques a developer chooses. AMDs and nVidia's architectures are quite different if you haven't noticed.

We just have to wait and see how this turns out. But it's understandable that people are skeptical of Nvidia's motives etc. considering what has happened in the past. Personally I think it gives a black eye to PC gaming and turns people off, and might just drive them to throw their hands in the air and buy a PS3 or Xbox. I know I've felt that way to an extent.

I should be able to just buy a game and play it without worrying about back room shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Carbon_Unit

We just have to wait and see how this turns out. But it's understandable that people are skeptical of Nvidia's motives etc. considering what has happened in the past. Personally I think it gives a black eye to PC gaming and turns people off, and might just drive them to throw their hands in the air and buy a PS3 or Xbox. I know I've felt that way to an extent.

I should be able to just buy a game and play it without worrying about back room shenanigans.

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Exactly, I'm not sure what these "tesselation optimizations" are but if intentionally or unintentionally cripple performance on AMD cards it HURTS pc gaming. This is why ppl buy consoles, they're simple and they just work. Phsyx etc just make pc gaming more complicated and more niche in the process, which means it doesn't pay off to start new PC only IPs, which means we get crappy ports and the cycle just feeds on itself.

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Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Yes, it's possible to do so on purpose. It's also highly possible for it to happen depending on what algorithms or rendering techniques a developer chooses. AMDs and nVidia's architectures are quite different if you haven't noticed.

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Exactly, Could it be that $2m will influence Cryteks choice of algorithm?

If Nvidia get Crysis 2 in 580 boxes and a splash screen logo for their 2 mil no problem. All well and good to Nvidia, fair play. But if this 2 mil does influence how the game is coded then that's a different story altogether. Call me s1nykul but I don't think Nvidia will give $2m to Crytek to make code changes that will benefit ATI.

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Originally Posted by SiliconDoc

Let's face it, NVidia and the developer already have this figured. They know there are a certain number of raving red fanboys that under no circumstances would be caught dead saying a kind word about NVidia, and would also, given any public opportunity, avoid any TWIMTBP game, or at least screech publicly they would never buy it.

So NVidia and developer figure the non fanboys just shrug their shoulders and buy it anyway, even if they have an ATI card. Maybe the developer doesn't want raging fanboys buying their game, because those types complain and moan a lot about the game with conspiracy theories concerning their cards competitor. They probably don't want the nasty emails and grief. So, if fanboys don't buy it, they are happy.

Next, NVidia figures those looking for a videocard likely want to play Crysis 2, so it's likely that future purchasers that see your attitude decide they will buy an NVidia card so they can play CRYSIS 2 at maximum speed. More sales for NVidia that way. So complaining is good for NVidia.

Not only that, everyone who has an NVidia card already wants to buy it now that it's NVidia friendly. The installed Crysis 2 playable NVidia card base is what, 5 times larger than ATI's ? Something like that. So they WIN, period.

Your only hope is that everyone else that already hates NVidia as much as you do doesn't buy Crysis 2, which is probably not going to happen anyway, as the link angry monkey avatar guy showed - it was all NVidia TWIMTBP on the 1st Crysis, and it apparently sold like crazy for a long, long time.

Finally, they figure, like any sane human being or corporate person (I bet that drives you mad that NVidia is a corporate person) would figure, if they had an ATI card and it ran Crysis 2, they'd buy it anyway because there are a thousand other TWIMTBP games with massive NVidia dollars and programmers work pumped into them, and their ATI cards run those games anyway. In other words, they're banking on sanity in the general populace.

So, although it sounds all protesty, and all hopefully that you can help stab a big knife in NVidia's back because "they screwed you" (according to you), it's much more likely that ATI will make sure the puniest of ATI cards can make a stab at running Crysis 2, although all of them only on the reduced tessellation textures they are limited by, anyway.

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Perhaps the only valid ATI card owner whine is: " Dangit ! NVidia did it again, they delayed another game I was drooling to play, Crysis 2, and all they're doing is pumping up the tessellation and my ATI can't do that worth a crap anyway ! - So I'm waiting for no good reason ! "

Yeah, now that maybe is a valid complaint. That complaint I wouldn't complain about.:up:

Ok, I'm done cross examining.

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Whoa holy :banana::banana::banana::banana: batman. :rofl:

Well i still stick to my desicion of not buying a game thats being optimized for other hardware than i bought. Thats why i think its sucky of the developer to do stuff like this. I dont want to buy different hardware because the developers of games optimizes for 1 piece of hardware, and not the other.
The developer should make games for the PC. Be it with nvidia or ATI, amd or intel.

This could possibly give the consoles another +, which i dont like at all. But at least you know that a game made for PS3 will run great. Not the case with crysis 2 it seems. At least for me as a mad rageing, anti-corporate, ATI fanboy lol :p

Lets hope they bundle the game with all 580. If the game is not ready yet, they should put a activation-code in the box. It will be a good deal for everybody.