GTX Corrosion

Printable View

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

11-21-2007, 09:40 PM
Waterlogged

Quote:

Originally Posted by [XC] riptide

Druid.... when I said Anodize it was a suggestive alternative to Plating. AS a manu. process. If it can be done is the question?

No, anodizing is by far, inferior to plating.
11-21-2007, 10:18 PM
nikhsub1

A collection of past Swiftech posts (Gabe and OPPainter) regarding the GTX and corrosion from this thread: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...=136661&page=1

I'm highlighting my favorite part in red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Nickel/Zinc cobalt plated Aluminum:

We provide the MIL and ASTM specs on the plating of these housings. why hasn't anyone bothered to google these specs?

Please, let's review the facts (in this case the specs), before a hasty judgement is passed.

The treatment we give these parts is Military grade, and it is now being used by many other industries, including of course the Military. It's expensive, but well worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

here is the plating treatment sequence :

Wash/degrease
Caustic Etch
Acid Etch
De-oxydizer
Zincate primer
Electroless Nickel plating 12 micron
Zinc-cobalt plating 6 micron
Black die

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

I could justify this choice with 3 pages of technical explanations, but in final analysis: because I liked it! It's that simple.

And since I always put my money were my mouth is, the block is covered by a 5 year warranty.

We have been criticized in the past because we don't follow the bling trends (plexi tops etc..). I wanted to make something really beautiful, not bling, beautiful. So, while I do understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I also know that the proud owners of this block will be tempted to keep their case opened, just so that they can keep admiring it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OPPAINTER

I don't know if this was mentioned before or not, but the fact is that the big wig engineers (smart guys) :D at Intel told Swiftech how to coat the aluminum. I'm pretty sure they knew what they where talking about. Then again, they are only INTEL :D

OPP

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

The quality of plating is defined by specifications. At equal specifications, the quality of a plated flute will be exactly the same as a that of a plated water-block. The cost of plating a musical instrument will be much higher simply because of the much larger surface area to plate.

Frankly, I don't know if manufacturers of musical instruments publish their plating specifications. After all, musicians might not be as interested in the manufacturing process as they are in the musical characteristics of their instrument. Conversely, our audience is composed of engineers and technically oriented people who need industry standard references (ASTM, MilSpec) to evaluate our manufacturing quality standards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

We already have a Delrin top: it's the Apogee GT. As to its performance, well do the Math: Naekuh himself has verified his numbers up and now down versus the competition, and we have verified that the GT is only ~1C off the GTX at 100Watts and 1.5GPM. So it clearly tells you were the GT is located performance wise compared to the competition; it's made of Delrin, and it's average street price is $10 to $15 less than competition.

What is most distressing to me is the fact that people in this forum do not trust our data. Yet, this data always end up being verified over time, despite the relentless efforts of the anti-swiftech crowd. I could see not trusting the new kid on the block, but we have been in business for 7 years, and published professional data for what? close to 5 years now? If our numbers were skewed, people would know it after so much time. The only thing we don't publish is competitive data, which doesn't mean that we don't conduct competitive testing in-house. We simply chose not to create controversy by publishing it. So we know were our blocks are on the performance curve, at the tenth of the degree Celsius, and let's just say that we feel very comfortable about it. I also think that the backplate we are about to release will indeed bring both the GT and the GTX a mounting repeatability that will definitely allow all users to exploit the true potential of these blocks.

Back to the GTX and the plating issue, we made a mistake several years ago with anodized blocks. But everybody learns from their mistakes. I know we have, and as a result I am completely confident with the process that we are using now. The fact that you and a few others don't feel comfortable with it is a result of bad past experiences, and I understand it. But progress is made precisely by making mistakes, learning from them, and growing from there. Those who remain stuck in the old ways do not grow: they stagnate and end up falling behind the pace of technology.

Frankly the chances of corrosion in these blocks versus say the chances of machined acrylic tops cracking are thousands to 1. Yet, you guys buy acrylic top blocks (one piece VGA blocks come to mind) like mad. Doesn't matter that theyr'e being recalled. Doesn't matter that some blocks don't come with oring grooves and users have to JB Weld the fittings.. But when Swiftech tells you that the Storm is outdated, or that we use state-of-the-art plating, you chose not to believe it. Fine, what can I say. Just remember one thing if any: WE gave water-block base bowing to the world, not a mere artifact resulting from a manufacturing process, but a conscious decision that we made to incorporate this technology in our offerings based on the knowledge developped from testing. Is bowing the way we do it now the end of the line? Not by a long shot. Right now, it indicates a certain road to follow: hydraulic performance is reaching a plateau, and work needs to be done on other aspects.

The fact that a few of you are putting pressure on us to make a Delrin top (forget brass) for this block is one thing. And maybe we will in the future.. after all if it can sell a few hundred more water-blocks, why would I be against it? But the objective reality is simple: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current process that we use to plate the GTX, period.
11-21-2007, 10:29 PM
situman

Man the above is harsh, but facts are facts. What's spoken cannot be taken back. I don't see the significance of the bowing of the base. It uses a thicker o-ring for godsakes and that was after the Fuzion beat the crap out of the non-bowed GTX (if I recall correctly).
11-22-2007, 04:49 AM
septim

the facts are back...
11-22-2007, 05:35 AM
Xilikon

The red highlight is exactly what I remembered about his declarations when I read the big thread during my research for the best waterblock. That's why I said here and on the other that this is a problem if Gabe said it can hold well with plating and corrosion cases pop up contradicting his claims...

the weird thing is that at first he wanted to go with performance and simplicity but listened to the ppl wanting bling. Here is what he didn't get is that we can get blingy with a copper top or cheaper with a delrin top to please 2 crowd. Copper can be nickel plated or painted (top only) to suit any needs.
11-22-2007, 10:29 AM
ZL1Killa

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliG

I don't know about worth every penny, it should have been included in the first place:shakes:

the customer shouldn't have to pay because swiftech decided to go on the cheap

WHY IN THE SAM HELL IS EVERYTHING CHEAP AS :banana::banana::banana::banana: AND BUILT LIKE :banana::banana::banana::banana: THESE DAYS!!!!!!!!!!!
11-22-2007, 03:49 PM
Waterlogged

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

Gabe what is the mil spec # so the croud can read the data/process involved.

They are (and always have been), listed on Swiftech's site, in the "Specifications" portion for the GTX.
11-22-2007, 07:39 PM
IanY

This is verbatim communication, but in public forum, so I will share with all of you.

I'm no lacky, so take these comments and interpret them whatever way you wish.

Regarding glycol, or lack thereof:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe

yes this customer is admitedly running what he calls tap/demineralized water with no additive.

since when do we run only water in our cooling loops? all water-cooling systems must use an anti-corrosion/anti-fungal additive. algae alone will grow in a loop so fast that it will degrade the system in a matter of weeks.

people who say "I don't care that the guy is using pure water, swiftech should have known", might as well say "I don't care that the guy is using chloridric acid, Swiftech should have known."

Even distilled water used alone is unsafe, and will grow algea, which in term will promote mineralization and allow corrosion.

people have to start taking responsibility for their mistakes.

Comments regarding XS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe

as I expected, reading the responses to my post at XS is hopeless. like "I've been using distilled water for 1 1/2 yr without additives in my system without any problems..." what this user doesn't say is how often he drained his system to exchange water-blocks. this doesn't make any sense. I refuse to talk to such biased individuals, fueling controversy.. useless, or even worse: counterproductive.

Further remarks:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe

Well I posted anyways, and look at the responses..

"I have been using pure distilled water for 1.5yr no problem". But he omitted to say that he is using a pure silver block (silver being a biocide), which apparently is one of 250 ever made, and telling everyone else, yes go ahead use pure distilled water!

My primary point is you shouldn't use pure distilled water without additives.

Got a beef? Take the war to the intended recipient. Don't shoot the messenger, because the messenger may fire back with a bazooka.
11-22-2007, 07:44 PM
IanY

This was the initial response to my request for comment:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe

What do you want me to say? That we have sold thousands of these blocks, and seen no RMA to this date? The only point these guys are trying to make is that oxydation can occur, irrespective of the circumstances. Can your gas tank explode in your car?

You know, this is really a pity. We are working on new blocks, and we are questioning aluminum as a solution because a few vociferous individuals cry wolf, when the reality is that we have no problems. In the end, these people will be driving the price of the products up for the majority.

This was the comment about accountability:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe

The majority of the people are not dumb, and just because there are a few dummies out there does not mean that we have to make products just for them. There are protocols to respect in any technical environment.

Just the messenger.

DILLIGAFF ?
11-22-2007, 07:52 PM
Waterlogged

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

MIL-C-26074E grade B.pdf Grade B - 0.0005-inch minimum layer

ASTM-B840-99 CLASS 1

TYPE A - COLORLESS
GRADE 1 - .00023

TYPE B - YELLOW CHROMATE
GRADE 2 - .00046

TYPE C - BRONZE CHROMATE
GRADE 3 - .00070

hmmm very thin when you get to class 6......microns

You might want to re-evaluate your thoughts about that. My math tells me that Grade 6 should be almost .0012 thick, if each Grade is indeed a .00023 step.
11-22-2007, 09:24 PM
Waterlogged

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptCrunch

bet you wont see that if sawed the gtx top in half

If that's the case, there's no way Swiftech should be claiming that the top is plated according to that Spec.

I don't have a GTX (nor will I) so I can't say exactly how thick each layer of plating is. Personally, I've been warning ppl about the plating since it came out and I was over @ DD's forums. Something about using zinc (even if it is mixed with another metal) just didn't sit right with me, being a sacrificial metal in some anti-corrosion systems. :shrug:
12-20-2007, 11:18 AM
ZL1Killa

so how do you go about fixing this corrosion? or does it only happen with certain coolants?
12-20-2007, 11:49 AM
NaeKuh

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZL1Killa

so how do you go about fixing this corrosion? or does it only happen with certain coolants?

WOW talk about thread revival.

three easy ways to fight this:

1. if your using straight distilled, you need periodic flushes, like every 3-6months. 6 Months might be pushing it.
2. Use additives with some type of anti corrosion agent. Etyl Gly. is not an anti corrosive agent, its more of a biocide.
3. Get the GTX top gabe released because everyone complained and whinned about it. its 40 dollars but you never have to worry about a threadl ike this in your system ever.
12-20-2007, 12:11 PM
Kayin

There's no way in hell that's mil spec. Even my old (1930s era) trumpets had more plating than that in heavy wear areas (on the piston valves themselves.)

The rhetoric, hubris and out and out dog-stubborn bulls*** in this thread is amazing. In fact, it's enough to make sure I do two things.

1. Be sure I use silver in my loop, possibly to the point of silverplating blocks. I know full well its biocidal properties, and nikhsub1's recommendation seals the deal.

2. Under no circumstances will I purchase or recommend Swiftech to my customers, after the idiocy I have seen presented here. Gabe, whatever you know about waterblock design, you have shown to lack about the usage of the products, as well as seem to wish to reject all intelligent discussion, dismissing it as FUD or lack of knowledge. Nikhsub1 has more knowledge than most of us put together, and you insinuate that he is a fool and not even in full knowledge of the up/downtime of his loop. Having watercooled from the time of the Maze2 forward, I can remember other times that this occurred-I seem to remember Swiftech selling anodized blocks and AL rads before, way back when-and it bit your ass then, too. Even AC has dropped the Al and seems to be making some really top-level stuff-so when you decide to join the 21st century, drop us a line.

I watched this thread for a long, long time before posting. Petra, Nikhsub, Waterlogged, I appreciate your work here and elsewhere.

I got new power tools for early Christmas. I'm gonna get back to making my own case. I have WAYYYY too much invested in that project to let it alone for long...
12-26-2007, 05:28 PM
ZL1Killa

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaeKuh

WOW talk about thread revival.

three easy ways to fight this:

1. if your using straight distilled, you need periodic flushes, like every 3-6months. 6 Months might be pushing it.
2. Use additives with some type of anti corrosion agent. Etyl Alcho. is not an anti corrosive agent, its more of a biocide.
3. Get the GTX top gabe released because everyone complained and whinned about it. its 40 dollars but you never have to worry about a threadl ike this in your system ever.

LOL!!! sorry, but I was looking into getting one of these, and lapping my 6400BE cpu

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page