I seriously doubt AMD would waste the time and money doing something as risky as laser cutting the core. Look at those cut bridges on the old AXPs and tell me how well that would work on the core....
Nah.
Printable View
I seriously doubt AMD would waste the time and money doing something as risky as laser cutting the core. Look at those cut bridges on the old AXPs and tell me how well that would work on the core....
Nah.
nn_step
What do you plan to do?
He'll cover the pins in dust :D ;)
Okay I updated my sig. If theres anything you need... just ask. So long as you can explain what I have to do. :slap: :)
Hahaha... Word!Quote:
Originally Posted by nweibley
reprogram the chip...Quote:
Originally Posted by TiN_EOF
OK. Do you plan to do this with JTAG Tools and JTAG programmator connected to that pins on CPU? What BSDL do you want to use?
I was thinking this one http://www.amd.com/us-en/Connectivit...5E8677,00.html
Do you think it will work?
^^ AMD Am486DX 3volt processor IBIS models. :D
Is there any chance that info applies to the AMD64? :confused:
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daved+
hahaha :banana:Quote:
Originally Posted by KoHaN69
that might be a reason why I fried a proc...
So you guys find out how to unlock a 3000+ yet?
It hasn't been figured out yet because the chips aren't jtag locked they are laser locked. Jtag programming gone wrong would likely leave the chip unuseable. Failed laser cutting would just leave it unlocked. The odds a laser might have misfired or that there was garbage in the way of the cut are high indeed. The odds that the jtag programming was perfect in every way except that the chip was unlocked are unlikely. We've all seen messed up code.
Occam's Razor
one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything
Paraphrased
Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simplest.
Paraphrased even more simply
The most likely explanation is usually the correct one.
Flame me all you like, but do consider what I said. If I thought there was hope for a moment I would call every yahoo I could blackmail at AMD to give me the data.
Anyhow... continue on guys, maybe you will discover something interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly n Grey
aHA!! told u had sometihng with lasercutting to do!
u tell em gray!
That was exciting at first, but now its just getting pathetic.
Give up on it, but put the unlocked 3000+ in a museum or something.
f-ing pessimists :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by Flanker
I still have my hopes on the guys that are trying to get to it thru JTAG.
Here you have an interactive guide to changing Vcore, multiplier & FSB-Sense of AthlonXP via pinmod:
http://www.ocinside.de/go_e.html?/ht...md_pinmod.html
It can be useful to find out the corrispondence between pinout & Lxx bridges in AthlonXP:
http://fab51.com/cpu/barton/athlon-e23.html
If we find the pinout datasheet of the AthlonXP we can find the name of the pins involved in the pinmod and try to find the same ones in the Athlon64 pinout...
It's just an idea... :)
Remember that everything was RIGHT because at first it was not unlocked. :nono:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly n Grey
Only after Pirs tried another CPU for two weeks and put this between ashtray and mousepad, and then tried it again, it was unlocked. So IMO locking was DONE and CPU was locked and then something happend :confused:
So it's not like laser missed what it was supposed to cut...
Will pencil mod do the trick :)
It might be best to start a new thread for this post as not many are going to sort threw every page and see your post.
No offense, but Pirs experience is ancedotal, not scientific. There are too many factors in there and I think it was unlocked when he got it whether he realized it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref
Your statements to the contrary are pretty firm considering you have absolutely no proof either of your theory.
As I stated, this is my belief, believe what you like. I just think my explanation more likely given the evidence at hand.
This is not a flame, don't treat it as one.
Cheers
he needs to look in the retail box to see if there was a golden ticket in it
:rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by goodcooper
My statements are based on conversation with Pirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugly n Grey
Of course everything's possible and there's no proof about anything ... but you know you wouldn't think that unlocked venice is possible :)
I asked him about that again and you can read part of our conversation. :fact:
(conversation was translated to English by me - sorry for my English :help: )
-------------------------------------------------
Ref (08:51 PM) :
Are you absolutely sure that your CPU wasn't unlocked from the beginning?
Pirs (08:51 PM) :
I'm not 100% sure, however i think i would have noticed that, because I never keep multiplier on "auto", but I "force" it
Ref (08:51 PM) :
so you haven't noticed that before and after you used it again you noticed that immeidately right?
Pirs (08:52 PM) :
I never thought about something like that before, only after I put my Venice in again I had to change the multi .... and I saw it goes up to 25x :-)
Ref (08:52 PM) :
and have you changed the multi when it was supposed to be locked, was there anything more than 9x?
Pirs (08:53 PM) :
yes, it was locked...I always give the highest multi, e.g. 9x
Pirs (08:54 PM) :
I think I would have noticed it in the beginning, but I noticed it only after I swapped my SD
-------------------------------------------------
Im sory but i didn´t understood, you are going to continue this investigation ( with other members) in a new bewsite, of yours ?Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrazy
Who is "we", I would donate to the cause but not to someone with 4 posts to this site.
Why anouther site for this?
And, why you for handling money and not someone who has been posting and trying to solve this earlier on in the thread?
A previous thread discussing money and donations was deleted as no one had bothered to ask permission from the owners for posting it. If you want to keep this thread here and alive, I suggest you not go to that topic. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but it is forum policy. I have already edited posts here discussing the sale of this CPU (also against the forum rules) in order to keep this thread alive.
@Ref, your English is quite good, I do get your point however I simply think there's a good chance it may be a dead end. I applaud your efforts and have followed the thread avidly, so don't mistake skepticism for a lack of appreciation of the effort or thought put into this. By all means continue investigating, that's truly the only way to know.
Regards
UnG
Grey, I've read your post about something being laser locked because JTAG programming could go wrong:
JTAG programming is a very easy thing to do, it's just like flashing a EEPROM, in the extremly small chance it were to completely screw up you could simply try again. Lasercutting is expensive and extremly complex, you can't lasercut inside a core there would be visible traces.
Also, it is very very very easy they have one pin connected directly to one of the JTAG leads, all it takes is a simple flow of current say 25 amps @ 1.5 volt across that one circuit to render it useless on the outside. They could even have another pin that connects to the unburned end to fix broken CPUs if for some reason the CPU needs reprogramming. You could never ever find that pin because it isn't connected to anything on the outside (could even be one of the ground pins).
This is the way Intel has been locking their chips for years, a high current low voltage surge lockes the CPU by disconnecting the programmable part from the outside world.
Could somebody confirm their JTAG interface is doing anything at all?
Even if the JTAG interface were to be working you would still have to have the right protocolls to flash it (as I explained before)
JTAG is designed to be simple, however it is only an interface, you need to know the specs of whatever is connected to it to make it work.
In simple terms:
It's like having a RS232 datasheet and trying to get a serial mouse to work. There is a big gap between those two.
I have a 754 A64 here on my desk in front of me, I'll measure the JTAG pins to see if those are indeed connected.
Edit:
Since VID is unique per CPU core type, that could be hardwired. (Not relevant, just a remark)
i don't understand why we couldn't just compare a 3700+ to an FX to get the same results
what i mean is, comparing this mistake to a normal 3000+ will get us just as far, won't it?
After measuring I've found the TRST_L pin not connected to the CPU.
This pin is vital to activate the JTAG interface, normally after power-up this needs to be low for between 5-10 cycles on TCK in order to activate the JTAG interface. If this is the pin they burned (and internally linked to VSS via a pull-down resistor)
If the TRST_L pin on the JTAG interface is pulled down all JTAG activity is disabled.
Normally when this pin is connected you could pull it up for operation latching it down to enable JTAG operations.
IF my theory is correct reprogramming the CPU without the knowledge of a hidden TRST_L pin (if exists) is simply impossible.
Could somebody please confirm that the TRST_L pin is not connected?
However IEEE 1149.1 standard specifies that TRST_L pin is optional, but why does AMD specify it on their datasheet if it is not used?
Also the TCK pin seems to be connected directly to ground which is something I haven't seen before.
I hope the TRST_L pin isn't connected because it is not used. But still the TCK pin being connected to ground is very strange.
Also: I would like to point this out to anybody who is doing anything that has something remotely related to this:
There is NO reason whatsover to think the JTAG connector has anything to do with the multiplier. AMD has been putting JTAG connectors on their chips (not only cpus) forever. Also Intel has been putting JTAG connectors onto their chips forever and that has never proven to lead to multiplier settings.
AMD has 1000 different ways of programming chips with settings and CPU strings, it can be done via any combination of pins we don't know about. Also it can be done with any protocol and at any voltage. Also there are a lot of ways they could disconnect whatever is needed to program the chips from the outside world (even with very simple and cheap methods, it could even be part of the programming cycle).
So the chance of this working is about 0.000001%, but still it's fun to experiment.
I would ask everybody to not post here unless you have a really brilliant idea or some test results / new specs. It is turning into wild speculations and theories which can be proven incorrect within seconds.
I myself do not believe the JTAG connector has anything to do with the multiplier settings.
thecrazy, I propose you are to be banned. Setting up a website for this research is just great (except pretty useless since we only need one capable person of testing it and saying if there was any response from the JTAG interface)
Asking for money however is a very different thing, you do realise that actually unlocking the CPUs would be a bad thing for AMD and that by asking people for money to do this is actually asking people to give money to hurt AMD...
Also somebody with 5 posts and not having all the knowledge about the subject sound to me like somebody trying to get a bit of easy money from the overclockers here at this forum. You have no proof that the money is actually going to research into unlocking the CPUs or what kind of research this is.
I personally think this is a dead end, but still worth exploring. However there is no money needed to experiment with JTAG, you can solder a cable for 2 dollars and the software is GPL.
Also I asked to not further waste this thread with pointless discussions which is exactly what you seem to intend to do.
Also: I don't know the laws where you come from or where the server is located, but I think you can be sued for collecting money to hurt AMD.
Besides until you have permission from the admin you shouldn't be discussing you're idea. That kinda defeats the purpose of asking for permission.
You seem to think that the JTAG port 'discovery' is something great, however as stated before JTAG ports have been around for years.
nope it was my last winchester 3200+ chip..Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrazy
now all I have left is a couple venice, a 3000+ winne and my X2
Ahw don't take it too hard, just think long and hard about what you intend to do and how it will affect not only people that want to unlock these CPUs but also the rest of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrazy
In the mean time: :toast: to you too.
I think this post shows wisdom and maturity beyond his post count, my hat's off to you good sir :toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorry
did you miss the part where he said it'll be his last post :slapass: so rude :slap:
thecrazy is not banned, thorry is not banned, no one is banned but the conversation has taken a turn for the worst. I will politely ask you gentleman to return to topic. Those who choose can post in the thread, but please be aware you should read backwards a while before posting or your fellow members may scorn you. In fact if you have posted OT in the past 24 hours, why not delete your stuff and make this thread look clean?
Thanks for your response Thorry, I understand what JTAG programming is. In fact I have reverse engineered several programs from popular automotive products. I did not have to discover an unknown protocol first however.
Whether or not there are hardlocks in place is unknown, I am simply commenting that the most simple explanation is usually more valid than the most complex. Were I AMD, I would hardlock my chips but I'm not and any theory other than mine is valid.
UnG
Very true, however I do not think lasercutting has anything to do with it since there are easier ways to hardlock it.
Also there is still no proof that the JTAG interface has anything to do with the multiplier, but on the very small chance that there is a connection we should explore this option.
I don't know what kind of chip you had te reverse engineer but a chip like a CPU is a bit more complex. The JTAG interface is used in debugging and testing (this is actually it's main function). All the circuits inside the chip are connected to the JTAG interface and you need to know the exact shift register data in order to be able to talk to one specific chip.
Also you can use the JTAG to read and write in the memory via the memory controller, if you end up reading from there you will get a lot of data which isn't usefull. The JTAG interface can also be used as a (re)programming interface. I use it myself to recover PDAs with broken firmware. Via the JTAG interface I can flash it.
However as said, I have the shift-register data for a lot of PDAs and therefor I can program them. If I haven't got those I can't really do anything at all with them. The same is true for the Athlon 64 chips. A PDA can be reverse engineered because they are mostly made up of standard components and manufacturers tend to use the same for similar series of PDAs.
A CPU however is very complex, like I said it's like trying to get a serial mouse to work with only a RS232 datasheet. Not impossible but really hard and a high-luck factor.
Is there anybody who has gotten anything out of the JTAG interface yet? Also since TCK seems to be connected directly to GND (VSS) does the CPU short-circuit when a clock is connected?
Is the JTAG way the last chance or there are other options? Pinmodding is unusefull?
Another question about JTAG (very OT): with a jtag interface is it possible to upload a modded firmware in a PSP (Playstation Portable) ?
It seems like the JTAG way is indeed the only chance, pinmodding does not do anything.
If a PSP has a JTAG interface the chance is very big that it could be flashed that way.
Thanks, Thorry! Now we have only to cross fingers that Athlon64s were not hardlocked...
Ttt :d
AgainQuote:
Originally Posted by IvanAndreevich
Umm. This is freaking WEIRD. When I got home today, my computer was dead. I left it on when I left for work and it was dead and would not power up when I got home.
Since the system would not even turn over, I got a new PSU. It didn't fix the problem. I got an identical replacement board from Microcenter (AOpen NF4 Ultra) and that solved my problem. System would start again! But when I would exit the BIOS and restart, it would just freeze. I would have to reset the CCMOS just to get back into the BIOS again.
When I went into the BIOS it had some weird letters by the CPU multiplier. So I tried to reload the BIOS from EEPROM. Finally the system was working and rebooting OK and I could boot into Windows.
BUT.....NOW MY VENICE 3200+ 0531 IS UNLOCKED! It was not unlocked before...:banana:
What's the max multi? Got any screen shots?
Additional system info?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocker
THe max shown to me by ClockGen is 25x. Weird thing is that it also shows me a -1x multiplier after that. Screen shots coming in about 30 minutes. This is a fresh install and I need to reinstall PS and figure out what my webspace password is again. :-P
You can host your SSs at www.imageshack.us if you like. And Paint can be used to resize.
Here's a ClockGen screenshot.
Hope I got that link thing right I have never used that service before.
System Specs:
Venice 3200+ Week 0531 from Ewiz
AOpen nCK804Ua-LFS
2x 1GB OCZ Platinum
CheapAss x300 PCIe card (untill 7800GT comes down more)
Bt878 TV Tuner (ATi TV Wonder)
2x 7K250 160GB SATA
Welp, I'd say we have unlocked chip #2 on our hands here! Any inkling as to how it happened?
wow it seems like AMD is really f :banana: :banana: :banana: ing up with their locked chips and creating unlocked ones
No idea. I just know I was pissed because the system was dead when I got home. I want to know why it died. I was overclocking with a memory divider before. It was a really mild overclock though (2.4ghz). I kept it at default voltage and it was prime stable. I even had CoolNQuiet running on it when I left so it should not have been a heat issue.
Incidentally, CoolNQuiet DOESN'T WORK ANY MORE.
When I try to launch the AMD Power Moniter, it says...
http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/2...monitor9nf.gif
Something tells me I should run Prime95 to test this thing... :stick:
Imageshack is cool!!!!
My clockgen lets me select different multipliers that wont work. I've tried x10, and only crashed my system as a result. My bios wont let me go over x9.
I want my CoolNQuiet to work. Anyone want to trade me for the unlocked venice I have here? Of course, I cannot make any guarantees...
My Heat is under ClockerXP.
CxP
Could you post a CPUZ validation link with a higher multi pls?
we want a cpuz screen not clockgen ;)
everyone can see those multi but won't work :D
anyway if it does well yer damn lucky :)
In my DFI NF4 i can change the C&Q Max Fid to 13.5 what does this mean?
Normally it's on AUTO.But after a BSOD Bios shows me 13.5.
Try to set it in BIOS, boot windows and validate CPU-Z :)
When you say 'Validate' with CPU Z. Do you mean that I should set the multiplier in the BIOS and then run CPU Z after boot up? Then, just show a screen shot of CPU-Z?
Thanks,
CxP
Here's the CPUZ Screen shot. I thought this was 'validation' but now I know it's not! Validation is coming tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref
http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/3971/cpuzval1ts.gif
Whoa nice :D another instance unlocked cpu, this is defenitily possible to do it seems.
Now think hard, what do both these situations have in common?
this si 100% insane
i am restarting now to check if mine is unlocked also ;)
Can we hope that an a64 will demand less voltage to be stable at for example 2800 (14*200) as at 2800 (311*9) if it's unlocked?
Wait a sec ... Where is x86-64 from CPU-Z ????Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocker
That's NOT validation...Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocker
To validate is to go to CPU-Z's last tab "About", click Validation and then Save validation file.
Then you need fill in this form : http://valid.x86-secret.com/
and give it your CVF file...
Then give us a link for the validation which will be given to you and that's it :)
example of validated link: http://valid.x86-secret.com/show_oc.php?id=11253
Darnet. Thanks for the info. I'll have to do that when I get home from work.
CxP
:coffee:
Clocker you can use RMClock instead for CnQ
Clocker can I put my venice 3000+ cpu in your dead motherboard :)
I think somehow these motherboard might be the reason the cpu gets unlocked. I'm sure Pirs's the first unlock cpu was installed on a defective motherboard.
Lets see what Pirs and Clocker have in common NF4 Ultra motherboards?
maybe cool n quiet or divider play a part in it.
I was running my CPU at default voltage (1.4v) with a 240Mhz FSB and 0.83 memory divider (so I was running ram at ~200Mhz). HTT multiplier was 4x.
WIth CnQ running, the CPU was running at 1200Mhz and 1.1v according to the AMD program. CnQ was running when I left the house and when I got back the system was dead.
Is that stressing anything other than the CPU ('cause of higher clock speed)? Does the above config stress the NF4 chipset? I was using a Zalman passive heatsink on the NF4 chipset. I'm doing that now too but I have a little 40mm fan on it just in case....
CxP
I want to place my 330htt 3000+ E6 in there to release mutliplier so I reach 3300mhz or 3600 on air! :explode:
At many places, they say to DON'T use Cool N Quiet on overclocked system.. Could it be that C N' Q and multiplier lock/limit are not doing "like" they should. Ok please now , I want a bad bios corruption too and I think I 'll play with Cool N Quiet tonight :coffee:
Anyone care to give me some feedback on the below... ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocker
No that's not stressful, but it doesn't always work. For Cool and Quiet to work CORRECTLY , everything pretty much needs to be at stock. The program can't really deal with out of spec.
Maybe overclocking with CnQ is a factor to unlocking .... :stick:
i think that amd is screwing up their locks, if not at least one amd funguy in the world would had got an unlocked cpu by casuality, i mean why its happening now and not before, those are new processors.
i guess someone in amd its going to get his balls cut off
Sory about my english i did´t used it since almost last year
Cool and quite is controlled from bios right? Bios taking control of the chips speed and multi, maybe when the system is overclocked, Q&Q screws up and messing up with the multis while trying to get the chip to the speeds it wants and some home has a permanat effect on the cpu, cause all the multi's to be released.
In short, it uses a glitch or bug in the software in effect hacking the chip threw this exploit and unlocking it.
Maybe we should mod the Q&Q part of the bios to use multis that are not avaliable on the current cpu and see if it can implement them :D
:toast:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocker
*Wishes his 3200+ was completely unlocked*
Heh, cool...I'm still waiting for HW :)
But tomorrow I will play with CNQ. I always used it off before...maybe is the key.
hmmmmmmmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by TiN_EOF
i really doubt it and i really hope its so easy
:clap:
damn tha's crazy .. my cpu date is 0512 me thinks i should set fsb to 240 with c&q enabled :D
Ok guys I just found this maybe it can help. Hey tin_eof have you seen this?
http://www.sandpile.org/ia32/cpuid.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocker
Could burning up MOBO be a key to this too? In addition to the C&Q Overclock.
Ouch. UPS and Fedex might clean up on all the RMAs. :p:
Went back to look at PIRS post don't see where he had MOBO burn-out or problem.
I also just found this. You guys may have seen it but give a look
http://www.amd.com/us-en/assets/cont...docs/26569.pdf
Hey guys,
Just a little thought for those of you out their who know a little more than me abt CPUs.
My chain of thought:
How does CnQ work?
By software?
If so, wht does the software do?
We know the software has access to the multipliers of the chip (its how CnQ works, right ;))
So I think it far to say tht CnQ can PROGRAMITICALLY change values within the CPU.
The first thing I would do is,
try to decompile the CnQ program AMD uses and study to see how CnQ works
I think this could be a key to working out how to re-program these locked CPU's. Now could someone in the know make this happen
De-compile the software!!
heheheeee
ROLF :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :p:Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoled
Hey Dino u got me confused,Quote:
Originally Posted by dinos22
you chuckling with the spelling or the idea?
cuz programatically is not a word but tha's okay
what about the other modles of amd chips that don't support c&q? how would those unlock???
what was the idea againQuote:
Originally Posted by mongoled
Did Clocker's cpu magically lose its x86_64 registers?
interesting thought mongoled but im pretty sure the multi would be locked on-chip otherwise mobo manufacturers could just make a hacked version
Erm, ok I spelt the word wrong :slap: but to sayQuote:
Originally Posted by i found nemo
PROGRAMMATICALLY is not a word is wrong
Well the discussion at hand is abt A64 CPUs which from wht I understand ALL support CnQ (someone please correct me if wrong abt this).
Yes,Quote:
Originally Posted by the_chad
you r right, i didnt think of it this way, but maybe AMD has prophibited this action. I was just trying to look at things from a logical point of view, I dont think it should be too hard (will take some time ofcourse) for someone who has experience in low-level programming to at least take a look at how CnQ works
Hey guys. When i flashed my Bios to 1.A on my neo2 i overclocked the hell outa my Winnie to its point of death (2.5 in my case lol) but i left CnQ active by mistake, only reason i noticed is cus my SPi times Sucked. Im gonna go and check on my cpu now. I had dividers and all sorts running, the same as clocker
Hm...
As I understand nobody know how did their CPU's get unlocked, but in every case the common thing was Enabled CnQ.
I enabled it too, play with FID, VID, and CPU Load level, but nothing happens yet. It is still x9 max.
So describe as detailed as possible, what did you do before you cpu free multi.?
This screenshot shows some very interesting things! :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocker
Stepping : 2
Revision : ???
x86-64 : ???
Clocker, could you try to run any 64-bit OS, e.g. W64 or Linux 64b if it works?
Also, could you post your CPU-Z dump please? (at stock)