"Grouper" first look

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grayskull

Before you go off into a rampage and start blaming the Southbridge for everything, you need to understand a few things. The reference design doesn't suffer from poor LAN performance, nor poor SATA performance. It also overclocks easily over 280 MHz. A proper implementation and correct testing procedures will achieve the performance levels as reported by Anandtech. There was obviously something wrong with the TechReport review. Either it was the user who wasn't setting the board up correctly, or some other problem with the motherboard.

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This is not a rampage, only a simple opinion. As I have stated before, I am also one of those that is highly anticipating the release of this motherboard. However, I do see that some work (in my opinion) has to be done on this Sapphire board in particular before its retail channels. Additionally, I also noted that I was speaking soley based on the board samples that have been (p)reviewed, so I will save my final judgement for an available sample.

Before you go name calling, you need to re-read my posts as I was very careful in what I said. Like many here, I am very much looking forward to testing one of these boards, but I have my own opinions on the matter, too.

Lastly, I do feel as if there we some inconsistencies with the TR review, namely becasue they were only able to manage a 245HTT clock on the DFI NF4 Ultra-D (which is just downright abysmal). This and a few other things led me to believe that the testing methodology perhaps could have been a little better.

The point here is simple: I have reserved my final judgement on these boards, but I have exercised my right to comment on what has set forth for me. So far we have a few things here: Anandtech offered a very glowing review, and TR's review was a bit less generous. Instead of shooting me for my opinions, I suggest that you and your people focus on bringing these boards out sometime this year. I think that I speak for myself and many others when I say that our credit cards have been ready for the Grouper board for quite some time.

Next time, don't shoot the messenger. Your quarrel should be with those who reviewed the board, not me.

deception``

I have to take your side deception, but Grayskull probably wasn't trying to be as confrontational as you may have thought he was.

Now where can I get Crossfire edition of Radeon to get this thing working?? :cool:

http://www.muropaketti.com/artikkeli...ut/halibut.jpg

Just kidding, this is being showed in IDF Fall 2005 here in San Francisco (Not by ATI).

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About grouper, I've heard absolutely nothing about Sapphire and the samples. They propably let few sites to review the board to get some more time (and publicity).... They really did a nice job and used Anand to promote the board and made them to give an empty "promise" about Grouper availability (5th of August).

About Crossfire, ATI is saying "in few weeks". Although they said the same in the beginning of June. Well, we'll see.. I'm definitely looking forward to bench it (with R520 I hope) and see how well it does against my current GeForce 7800 GTX score (16724).

I hope the TR review was off, but they definitely had issues with the ethernet and USB functionality on this board. I look forward to more reviews so we can sort this all out. Regardless this board is LATE.

D

you all need to remember this is a reference design, its not DFI making their own version or Asus etc, this is ATI developing a reference thats about the best reference board there has been.

I have had the pleasure of testing Sis , Nvidia, intel and many other reference design boards and they were far more buggy than this, infact why do you think they leave overclocking out the bios on these boards?

They are launching halibut to showcase crossfire soon, the board in the pic above is halibut but is an earlier build from the looks of it.

this is a sapphire, not a reference design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by don_vercetti

this is a sapphire, not a reference design.

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I'd rather trust bigtoe's word on this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by don_vercetti

this is a sapphire, not a reference design.

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His point is that the Sapphire board is based on the reference design. Despite this, the fact remains that there is still room for improvement based on what we have seen.

Grayskull, I will edit my previous comment and say that perhaps it is not ATI's SouthBridge, but Sapphire's implementation of it that is causing these less-than-stellar connectivity issues; nonetheless, we all hope that these kinks will be ironed out in the final retail (whenever that my come).

deception``

Sapphire is developing the reference design, Don. So the first half of your statement is right while the second half is wrong.

There is ALWAYS room for improvement, I'll be the first one to sing that song. Even if you are the leader of the pack, you always need to be thinking of ways to keep in front.

Just so that it's clear, the onboard LAN and Silicon Image 3132 is connected to the Northbridge, not the Southbridge. The Southbridge has nothing to do with these interfaces on a Grouper reference design. This is why I am saying that the Southbridge is unjustly getting a bad rap here.

As for the devices connected to the Northbridge, I can tell you with 100% confidence that the poor performance that Techreport achieved is due to not enabling a performance feature. I also know that the limited overclocking is again due to not enabling the correct options in CMOS.

I point to the Anandtech review because I know for certain Wesley sets his boards up correctly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deception``

His point is that the Sapphire board is based on the reference design. Despite this, the fact remains that there is still room for improvement based on what we have seen.

Grayskull, I will edit my previous comment and say that perhaps it is not ATI's SouthBridge, but Sapphire's implementation of it that is causing these less-than-stellar connectivity issues; nonetheless, we all hope that these kinks will be ironed out in the final retail (whenever that my come).

deception``

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Thanks Grayskull. I think it's cool that an ATI rep regularly comes on here to straighten us all out with the true scoop.

Along the same line, I wonder if Sapphire is considering a support forum like DFI Street? That may rekindle my interest in the Gouper or Halibut if they do. :p:

bigtoe?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xenolith

Thanks Grayskull. I think it's cool that an ATI rep regularly

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Yes I also agree. If only nVidia/intel (and the many others) would do the same :(

Big ad of Grouper and quotes from Anandtech article on ATI's website. The only thing they forgot to quote was the supposed availability on 5th of August :)

http://www.ati.com/buy/promotions/sa...obo/index.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xenolith

Thanks Grayskull. I think it's cool that an ATI rep regularly comes on here to straighten us all out with the true scoop.

Along the same line, I wonder if Sapphire is considering a support forum like DFI Street? That may rekindle my interest in the Gouper or Halibut if they do. :p:

bigtoe?

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if they do decide on a forum please use vBulletin :D

they cant even decide on a release date...let them work on that first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grayskull

As for the devices connected to the Northbridge, I can tell you with 100% confidence that the poor performance that Techreport achieved is due to not enabling a performance feature. I also know that the limited overclocking is again due to not enabling the correct options in CMOS.

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Grayskull, could / would you please expound on this "performance feature" / "CMOS options" that were or were not used in the Techreport preview as opposed to the Anand one?

I find it strange that ATI would not ensure the authors of such previews were not made aware of the proper performance settings for the new chipset, unless of coarse ATI wanted a less than stellar preview.

Well it was the race noboby but me knew about would my 8rda+ die off capacitor - itis first or would the sapphire grouper be released first the epox bet the sapphire ( although i don't think they'd brag on that)
as a canuk i'm still giving ati a chance though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xenolith

Along the same line, I wonder if Sapphire is considering a support forum like DFI Street? That may rekindle my interest in the Gouper or Halibut if they do. :p:

bigtoe?

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They do have a forum but it's pretty much useless with no company reps present .
Admins even have to email Sapphire to request any forum changes since they have very little they are able to do.... :rolleyes:

Sapphire Forums

Any news on when its shipping.........its already the end of August :slap:

Better be here soon, I'm getting itchy.

Arriving Late September 2005


That's now the official word at OcUK, for the Crossfire board. Grouper is still mid semptember, but i doubt they'll make it.

Another review:

http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews...lld19JRD0xNTEw

Hmmm....

this is the board originally poster by bigtoe:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=31687


It is very different from(pic stolen from the above Hexus review.)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=36430



I don't care about costs, or anything; the ommisions are enough for me to say it looks like I'm not buying one. :slapass:

After all I really prefer to wait an extra month or two and get a stable board rather than a pile of crap full of bugs... Let them make it perfect, in the end that is what we want, don't we.

Arent the mobos already made and supposedly packaged........how are they gona tune / debug thousands of mobos individually...... :confused:
I think they are jus witholding shipping........its the Bios that will have to be refined further :fact: Its still sumtin that can be bought while
awaiting new Bioses IMO...... :stick:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cadaveca

I don't care about costs, or anything; the ommisions are enough for me to say it looks like I'm not buying one. :slapass:

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all i see are the lack of onboard graphics and the lack of the LED's....

whats the big deal about that?

and i have no idea as to why sapphire would send these out for review, no way they are stockpiling them, as if they were defective they wouldnt be making more until the defect is fixed, so it seems to me that sapphire gave reviewers a cherrypicked board and hoped that they would have the main ones fixed in time for release.... stupid move if thats true because i think they turned more people off of this product then they gained... if it was available at review i couldnt even imagine how well it would have sold...

now if it doesnt release before the DFI Crossfire board i really cant see a single person buying one for the rumored price... basically what im saying is, if this is more then say $120, i dont see a single person going for it if there are alternatives like a crossfire DFI out.

today a lot of reviewgroups got the grouper board. so we can look forward to a couple of reviews.

but unfortunately there exist also a few problems like the new BIOS "DE8 0819" which is very buggy, it works only with 2T timings and sapphire integrated a kind of flashingprotection so its not possible to flash an older bios version.

when can we expect a new bios and is there a trick to disable the bios protection

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloxxd

today a lot of reviewgroups got the grouper board. so we can look forward to a couple of reviews.

but unfortunately there exist also a few problems like the new BIOS "DE8 0819" which is very buggy, it works only with 2T timings and sapphire integrated a kind of flashingprotection so its not possible to flash an older bios version.

when can we expect a new bios and is there a trick to disable the bios protection

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there has always been that lock. its just called using forceflash... its on awdflash and winflash ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revv23

all i see are the lack of onboard graphics and the lack of the LED's....

whats the big deal about that?

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big deal is that no onboard means different chipset, and not the same board AT ALL. no onbaord means RX480, not RS480, as posted earlier. I had interest in the RS480 only.

check the bios shot from the first board, posted by bigtoe:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=31690
i see RS480 there.... so, different chipset explain the differnce between the orignal board in this thread, and it's clocks, and the ones reviewer's have. It's no more than the MSI RX480 board with a new southbridge, PWM design, and PCB...but the most vital compontent...the chipset...is not the same. Might as well put an nforce3 chip in an nforce4 board...it's jsut the same.


Buying this product based on anything bigtoe has posted, or even comparisions, are null and void, if you ask me. Sapphire have made a big nono. :slapass:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dippyskoodlez

there has always been that lock. its just called using forceflash... its on awdflash and winflash ;)

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thanks ... i hope sapphire will fix that bios bugs as soon as possible. I think we can expect a new bios on Friday

Exists a hardwaremonitoring tool yet ? - to check the cpu temperature in windows

try systool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cadaveca

try systool.

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doesnt work

http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/6665/45dk.jpg

330 htt is fine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cadaveca

big deal is that no onboard means different chipset, and not the same board AT ALL. no onbaord means RX480, not RS480, as posted earlier. I had interest in the RS480 only.

check the bios shot from the first board, posted by bigtoe:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...chmentid=31690
i see RS480 there.... so, different chipset explain the differnce between the orignal board in this thread, and it's clocks, and the ones reviewer's have. It's no more than the MSI RX480 board with a new southbridge, PWM design, and PCB...but the most vital compontent...the chipset...is not the same. Might as well put an nforce3 chip in an nforce4 board...it's jsut the same.


Buying this product based on anything bigtoe has posted, or even comparisions, are null and void, if you ask me. Sapphire have made a big nono. :slapass:

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uhh the reviewed boards were on RX480... they changed chipsets to lower price. it the same chipset without onboard graphics...

Yes, but as a system builder, not everyone needs an additional videocard, and onboard graphics makes mass-builds much easier and affordable. Onboard video means less components and drivers to install, and generally lower power requirements, and therefore, noise and heat. This board, with onboard video, would make many a HTPC builder happy too. But hey, that side of the market doesn't matter, and no they don't need performance whatsoever :rolleyes: You forget that the people that make those sort of decisions are generally enthusiasts themselves...


:stick:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloxxd

doesnt work

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build 531 is supposed to work, according to the changelog. LoL...but maybe that's for the real grouper boards. :D
:clap:

:toast:

I would add some benchmarking here but my board is back at ATI having some minor alterations made. Development continues on both the single slot and dual crossfire slot reference boards as does bios development although Sapphire may be doing their own builds now.

My reference board has the onboard video, as far as I know the sapphire should have the post code reader but not the onboard video. kinda confusing I know.

I have the crossfire boards here although i don't have crossfire video cards :(, essentially the crossfire and single slot boards overclock exactly the same as they are based off the same basic pcb design except for the chipset and dual vidoe card area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigtoe

Development continues on both the single slot and dual crossfire slot reference boards as does bios development although Sapphire may be doing their own builds now.

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I don't know if that's good news or bad news, but at least it's news. :toast:

@bigtoe which version of the xFire board do you have ? - Halibut or http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatal...hire_AMDCF.jpg (I dont know the codename)

when the board with RD480 works as fine as the grouper one - Halibut (the board for enthusiasts :rolleyes: ) is dead :eek:

Whats better to release this sooner, then release a revamped/working version months later (like The DFI 4)or wait a few weeks more for the real deal.

I know which one I would sooner have, a computer I can switch off and on :slapass:

AAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
iiiiiiiiiissssssss ssssssssssooooooooooo sssssslllllllllllooooooooowwwwwwww

The Booth I am workin in @ Comex 2005 has a DFI Crossfire sample board on static display.......looks good :D

looks like DFI has something out:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=246445

but for $359.00 , they can keep it! :slap:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Camel

looks like DFI has something out:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=246445

but for $359.00 , they can keep it! :slap:

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:shock2:

However, since even DFI's website doesn't mention a single word on it, I'd say it is an interesting method how Zipzoomfly defines preorders or the item came up on their site by a database accident or something like that.

here is the board i have.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=36522&stc=1

Its the ATI reference board, its just like the grouper in that it has the same overclocking features but it does crossfire.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=36523&stc=1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Camel

looks like DFI has something out:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...uctCode=246445

but for $359.00 , they can keep it! :slap:

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Its in stock.. someone get one :slobber: If they don't have it, they gonna be in trouble.. their site says in stock :slapass:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigtoe

here is the board i have.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=36522&stc=1

Its the ATI reference board, its just like the grouper in that it has the same overclocking features but it does crossfire.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=36523&stc=1

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Hey Tony, I notice that has active cooling on the northbridge....Is that something you've rigged or is it stock?

I ask because I thought Grouper was passively cooled?

Thanks for the continued input by the way :toast:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madpete

Hey Tony, I notice that has active cooling on the northbridge....Is that something you've rigged or is it stock?

I ask because I thought Grouper was passively cooled?

Thanks for the continued input by the way :toast:

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It came like that as i expressed concerns the chipset was a little toasty on another board i tested.Some of the chipsets run real cool, some warm it all depends on yield i suppose, they all run fast though ;)

Also it looks like someone has picked up the base design for this board, tweaked it a little and is going to produce it ;), i can't say who at this time but it is exciting :)

Ok cool, thanks.

You got me wondering who that is now.... :p:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dippyskoodlez

Its in stock.. someone get one :slobber: If they don't have it, they gonna be in trouble.. their site says in stock :slapass:

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IMO:

after all the "fun" ive had with my Ultra-D...

DFI could sell 24k gold for $1 / Oz and i wouldnt buy from them!

(well, since i know they would go bankrupt doing the above, i guess i would help them do that)

so Tony, an OCZ mobo? :banana:

nice sunny day here so i took a couple of pics outside for you.Only on my snappy 5mp camera though.

front and back.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=36524&stc=1
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...id=36525&stc=1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Camel

IMO:

after all the "fun" ive had with my Ultra-D...

DFI could sell 24k gold for $1 / Oz and i wouldnt buy from them!

(well, since i know they would go bankrupt doing the above, i guess i would help them do that)

so Tony, an OCZ mobo? :banana:

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I can't tell you just yet, as soon as i can I will ;)

wink wink, nudge nudge, know what i mean? know what i mean?

nice :)

:YIPPIE:

just get it (word) out B4 i (we) get other ones (mobos) first. :nono:

:toast:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Camel

wink wink, nudge nudge, know what i mean? know what i mean?

nice :)

:YIPPIE:

just get it (word) out B4 i (we) get other ones (mobos) first. :nono:

:toast:

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So... What's it like? ;)
seriously. looks nice. I do not like the prices, though. I was tihinking about getting one, but if the prices do not drop, i won't. It is expensive enough as it is here in europe :rolleyes:
I dont like the whit one, actually. But whatever. i dont use windows in my case. And i dont really think the black one is any better. Ok, a little, but it is going to cost more..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SlackeR

So... What's it like? ;)
seriously. looks nice. I do not like the prices, though. I was tihinking about getting one, but if the prices do not drop, i won't. It is expensive enough as it is here in europe :rolleyes:
I dont like the whit one, actually. But whatever. i dont use windows in my case. And i dont really think the black one is any better. Ok, a little, but it is going to cost more..

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I just want performance, stability and reliability, and if i have to pay a little extra for it then so be it. And no doubt that here in the UK the price will be high (we always get screwed) but if the product is good enough I dont mind so much.

Working with the DFI NF4 has taught me a new found respect for stability, due to the complete absense of it on their mainboards. :p:

P.S Tony, do you have any benchies of the Sapphires you could share with us at this stage?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigtoe

It came like that as i expressed concerns the chipset was a little toasty on another board i tested.Some of the chipsets run real cool, some warm it all depends on yield i suppose, they all run fast though ;)

Also it looks like someone has picked up the base design for this board, tweaked it a little and is going to produce it ;), i can't say who at this time but it is exciting :)

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Maybe OCZ? :p:

What is that in your upper 16x slot?

That board looks awesome....but now you have me curious about this next board.

Whatever is best at the end of October is what I'm getting.

how much longer do I have to wait?

What is the deal with all these reports of usb issues? Any of these new boards solve this yet?

Huh, X-bit labs has put up a review of the Grouper and they had one board going tits up during the tests because of a failed capacitor in the CPU voltage regulator unit and it took the CPU with it :stick:
Now this is scary and is the worst news about this board.

X-bit's review

:O awesome mobo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LowRun

Huh, X-bit labs has put up a review of the Grouper and they had one board going tits up during the tests because of a failed capacitor in the CPU voltage regulator unit and it took the CPU with it :stick:
Now this is scary and is the worst news about this board.

X-bit's review

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The 1-14 and 1-19 bios files for the DFI NF4 are cpu killers luckily it only killed my cpu's and not the general publics, thats why i had the bios removed and updated all those months ago. Boards dying is nothing new and many do die while on review just as ram does and cpu's do.

I wouldn't worry, i have had over 7 boards here with zero issues and i push boards a lot harder than Xbit do trust me ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vapb400

What is that in your upper 16x slot?

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If you want all 16 lanes at 1 pcie slot this is how you do it on this board

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xgman

What is the deal with all these reports of usb issues? Any of these new boards solve this yet?

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USB performance is a little slow, and there is no integrated SATA2 in the SB.
BUT
IDE performance is stunning as is sound and SATA1, they are the only issues

last point is OCZ are not making the board..i wish they were honestly but a decission was made to concentrate away from motherboards a while back.

You should see s PR next week with who is making it, till then i can't say a word.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigtoe

The 1-14 and 1-19 bios files for the DFI NF4 are cpu killers luckily it only killed my cpu's and not the general publics, thats why i had the bios removed and updated all those moths ago. boards dying is nothing new and many do die while on review just as ram does and cpu's do.

I wouldn't worry, i have had over 7 boards here with zero issues and i push boards a lot harder than Xbit do trust me ;)

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Well, mobos tend to die a little too much as of lately, that's why i am regarding Grouper with great hope and was badly scared by X-bit's experiment, anyway, i hope you're right and the board is as reliable as can be.
Thanks for the infos you bring time after time.

maybe Bigtoes press release next week will bring hope back up. The mobo death due to caps brings back memory of the old days with bulging caps. It is something to worry about. I doubt there are that many boards out there for review. even if 1 out of 10 dies, thats a pretty big ratio. If they sell a million of these things, thats a 100k people with dead mobos and cpus. How piss would someone with a dead FX57 or the future fx59 be? No reason why they couldnt have used all sanyos or nichicon. Those pennies they saved will make them pay big time in the future with tons of RMAs. It only shows inconsistent quality and drives away users. Also its not like one of the brand names failed. It is the el cheapo caps that failed. So it is scary indeed. Now if only someone would test out the DFI crossfire...

I give props to Xbitlabs for being forthcoming with this.

Well We all know what happens when a manufacturer uses sanyo oscon and rubycon caps. All the money is spent on reliability and bios engineering goes out the window *cough* abit *cough*

Hmm on that crossfire it looks to have 2 sanyo oscon caps at the regulator area( purple ones ) what brand are the other caps to the right and left of those bigtoe? that is if your at liberty to say.

actually abit's engineering isnt all that great either. I had two of its AN8 boards die on me.

Those purple caps look G-Luxon to me, they seem not to be good stuff.

well, that's dissapointing news. :shrug:

no CPU temp monitoring? (this can't be right!)
higher cpu utilization by the network controller and the usb controllers.
not all the capacitors are of the same quality?
no bootup diagnostics LEDs?

and that's just the issues i care about, others might care about the poor sustained usb 2.0 speeds and so on.


I was looking forward to this board too (well, the crossfire one). :/

Overall impression is, seems like they are trying to cut costs to introduce the board at a competetive price to the DFI NF4 boards.

I'll wait for the DFI CF review to make up my mind. But so far leaning towards the DFI NF4 SLI-D. :( God I hate nVidia videocards! :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madpete

I just want performance, stability and reliability, and if i have to pay a little extra for it then so be it. And no doubt that here in the UK the price will be high (we always get screwed) but if the product is good enough I dont mind so much.

Working with the DFI NF4 has taught me a new found respect for stability, due to the complete absense of it on their mainboards. :p:

P.S Tony, do you have any benchies of the Sapphires you could share with us at this stage?

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Well i would too. but the difference we have seen till now is ridiculous.
And in Denmark we pay 25% VAT in stead of 17%, plus our prices are always a bit higher due to lower demand and less competition.
Anyways, i am not getting anything yet, so i have some time to see how the different boards perform, and where prices will end up.

low speed usb , no SataII , agrhh , wth ATI was doing in 9 months when they introduced this pure board in January :slapass:

I bet the price of ATI board is higher than DFI NF4 , and due to those lacking performance , i will not buy ATI board until they get better

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xs64

low speed usb , no SataII , agrhh , wth ATI was doing in 9 months when they introduced this pure board in January :slapass:

I bet the price of ATI board is higher than DFI NF4 , and due to those lacking performance , i will not buy ATI board until they get better

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Those fixes would be great, but nevertheless they don't represent a deal killer for a lot of people around here who are ready to try another chipset. The desire for a change may not necessarily be because they have a problem with their current NF4 (all the NF* series has been terrific for me) rather they sense much OC fun to be had in the new ATI chipset. For me there is a bonus in supporting competition in the marketplace. Especially now sone Nvidia is so throughly dominating the enthusiast market.

The only issue you raise that really registers with me is the idea that these boards will cost more than a premium NF4 mobo. I remain, as always a cheap b@stard. :D

cost isn't my concern, I want it to be great but if they don't step up soon..
Forget 'em...
I Don't have time to screw around with half ass products...

Looks like some more clarifications are needed....the reference design specifies only Nichicon (black) and Sanyo (purple) caps in the cpu power delivery and memory power delivery sections. All these caps are rated to 105C and of the highest quality. It seems the Sapphire implementation is different.

We have built countless numbers of reference boards and I've never seen one fail as described by xbit labs...even ones running under cascade coolers and ridiculous Vcore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReelMonza

Those purple caps look G-Luxon to me, they seem not to be good stuff.

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so great, the good reliable board is the one that we are unable to buy...

The Grouper/Halibut reference designs obviously have CPU temperature reporting capability. In fact, the design is superior than any other that I've seen. It uses a high quality standalone device that has an operating range of -55C to 150C and high accuracy. This is a significant improvement over most board that just use the superIO. This was done for all the subzero cooler users and at the request of XS members during the original poll on what features you all want.

If Xbitlabs had contacted Sapphire or ATi on this issue they would have been told that the sbios on the sample board is not the most recent and that a new one would be sent over with this feature enabled.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaxT

well, that's dissapointing news. :shrug:

no CPU temp monitoring? (this can't be right!)
higher cpu utilization by the network controller and the usb controllers.
not all the capacitors are of the same quality?
no bootup diagnostics LEDs?

and that's just the issues i care about, others might care about the poor sustained usb 2.0 speeds and so on.


I was looking forward to this board too (well, the crossfire one). :/

Overall impression is, seems like they are trying to cut costs to introduce the board at a competetive price to the DFI NF4 boards.

I'll wait for the DFI CF review to make up my mind. But so far leaning towards the DFI NF4 SLI-D. :( God I hate nVidia videocards! :(

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Will ATI ask sapphire nicely to not use crappy CAPS?? I would pay 10 bucks more if it means not killing my CPU. Or I could just save the 180 bucks and not buy the Sapphire board. :)

hell I would pay $50 if I knew they only used the best caps and resistors available...

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All in all, Sapphire mainboard is not any better than nForce4 based overclocker’s mainboards. It is just much more expensive. That’s all.

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-Ilya Gavrichenkov

I am getting so tired of all the hype, delays and promises. What has it been now? 2 out of three reviews I have read say this board isn't cutting the mustard!?

First Sapphire tosses out the IGP, now this?! DAMN IT! they have stripped the original design to save money, yet it somehow costs more than the competition while offering less?

2+2 still = 4. no?

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Originally Posted by Grayskull

Looks like some more clarifications are needed....the reference design specifies only Nichicon (black) and Sanyo (purple) caps in the cpu power delivery and memory power delivery sections. All these caps are rated to 105C and of the highest quality. It seems the Sapphire implementation is different.

We have built countless numbers of reference boards and I've never seen one fail as described by xbit labs...even ones running under cascade coolers and ridiculous Vcore.

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After months of waiting you have no idea how disapointing that is to hear, I can't believe / understand why sapphire have done that. I don't care about minor usb issues, I understand that the bios is still under development etc but I do care greatly about quality. If there are using cheap caps then that undermines the whole design and purpose of the board. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grayskull

the reference design specifies only Nichicon (black) and Sanyo (purple) caps in the cpu power delivery and memory power delivery sections. All these caps are rated to 105C and of the highest quality. It seems the Sapphire implementation is different.

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Well, thanks for clarifying cos' that puts Sapphire out of the equation for me, will have to wait for the new contender bigtoe mentionned and hope it will do better than Sapphire :rolleyes:

I'm alittle disappointed personally.

I would need a PCI and/or PCI-E slot for a HDTV tuner, sound card, PPU at the very least, as well as having 2 x 16 Lane PCI-E slots (1 for GFX card), 1 for math co-processor if is priced under $1500.

Then maybe also an I-RAM.

Also the USB performance is disappointing amonst other things. Too bad, I guess I'll stick with my buggy Ultra-D with its F'D up Network till M2 socket mobo's come out.

I was all over these boards when this thread first started. But now I'm with the above, I'll probably stick with my nF4 DFI. Really sucks too because I was so ready to get rid of this board.

It was a nice try by ATI/Sapphire, but you kind of shot yourself in the foot. If these boards would of started rolling out around the 15th (as originally stated) of last month bug free then they would of been something to talk about.

I dont know how great this ATI board in overclocking is , but the great board means it must have a good performance ( usb , network , ide , sata ...... ) and then plus great Oc support .

All of us who watching this thread at the beginning hoped ATI and Sapphire will get better than the "buggy" DFI NF4 , and after 9 months ATI shows their poor performance chip , that is pretty funny . Now i watch this thread for knowing the "buggy" of ATI chipset , not for hope getting a great board than my DFI NF4

And btw , i'm using my DFI NF4 for 9 months and it is still rock , nothing to complain about the performance , some bug are known and they are almost fixed , that's how cool DFI did for user

But i wish ATI can fix soon :toast:

Best regard

cant really say its ATI's fault. ATI specified quality caps, Sapphire decided to use crap. The peripheral issue is ATI's fault. I THINK they insisted on using their Southbridge instead of using ULi's where it is 100% and works great. Still, since Sapphire is ATI's oem/board partner, ATI should have more of a control over what goes out the door since Sapphire pretty much represents ATI.

I am tired of hype and half ass construction...
If a company just made a very good product with just the best parts..
They would be loved by all overclockers...
Hell I would pay $400 for a board that would allow me to play WZ21 with all the mods on and at max settings...
I would probably have to spend atleast $500 on a new graphics card but hey I want to see the Drazon Mod in full detail...

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Originally Posted by nn_step

I am tired of hype and half ass construction...
If a company just made a very good product with just the best parts..
They would be loved by all overclockers...
Hell I would pay $400 for a board that would allow me to play WZ21 with all the mods on and at max settings...
I would probably have to spend atleast $500 on a new graphics card but hey I want to see the Drazon Mod in full detail...

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thats where the problem is-

"most overclockers doesn't represent the market.

Selling 200 $500 boards Vs selling 15,000 $250 boards is quite a difference.. :(

I'm sure if we put the engineers to it, they could make some very very impressive overclocking stuff, however, they are constantly constrained because of marketing.

Granted, yea, they do target the enthusiast crowd, but very very few people are willing to shell out $200 for a motherboard.... :stick:

Not everyone has $500 for a mobo... heck, my PC was almost $700 total...

Its all about finding the right balance between cost to make, and features... some companys do it right, some screw it up pretty bad... and its begining to look like sapphires going to the bad category if they keep the prices that high :(

this thread has suddenly got very negative!

Let's wait until one of us has got our hands on a retail sapphire board, until we pass judgement on it. It's about the only way we can be really sure.

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Originally Posted by don_vercetti

this thread has suddenly got very negative!

Let's wait until one of us has got our hands on a retail sapphire board, until we pass judgement on it. It's about the only way we can be really sure.

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http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/Gruper/

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Sapphire is targeting to sell the board at around $169, which is certainly not cheap, but high-quality components have its price.

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They didn't keep the ATI logo, dumped the integrated video, and still costs a ton... :slapass:

I'll be taking a look at DFI's x-fire mobo, unless theres a decent competitor price wise, and component wise. Atleast it'll match my ultra-D. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Revv23

so great, the good reliable board is the one that we are unable to buy...

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Looks like it... :confused: Maybe the ATI powered DFIs will be the ones to get.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dippyskoodlez

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Sapphire/Gruper/

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yeah i saw that, but i still say wait until it comes into retail. And for a start, as has been said, they only managed to get a DFI to 245mhz, so something is up with there methodology on that count.

regarding DFI Ati; hasn't that always been the way?

The Xbitlabs review raised a possible issue with poor quality capacitors leading to boards failing. Looks like it may not be the stability king we were looking for.

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They used electrolytic capacitors from three manufacturers: SANYO, Nichicon and TEAPO. The first two names have been long known as high-quality component makers, however, the last one used to deliver capacitors of not very reliable quality and not very long life-time. Today TEAPO claims that there are no problems with the quality of their electronic components any more. However, during our stress-tests one of Sapphire PURE Innovation PI-A9RX480 mainboard failed for this particular reason: the capacitor dies when the board was running with a Venice based CPU overclocked to 2.8GHz. So, I would doubt the absolute reliability of the processor voltage regulator on this mainboard.

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Obviously got to wait until it actually goes retail (now mid september @ Ocuk), but the signs arent brilliant atm.

G

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master_G

The Xbitlabs review raised a possible issue with poor quality capacitors leading to boards failing. Looks like it may not be the stability king we were looking for.

Obviously got to wait until it actually goes retail (now mid september @ Ocuk), but the signs arent brilliant atm.

G

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Hehe, we've been debating this for two pages now, wanted to give you the "Welcome to last week" smiley but was affraid you got upset :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master_G

The Xbitlabs review raised a possible issue with poor quality capacitors leading to boards failing. Looks like it may not be the stability king we were looking for.

Obviously got to wait until it actually goes retail (now mid september @ Ocuk), but the signs arent brilliant atm.

G

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agreed if they dump the crap caps..
I might buy it.. But they have 30 Days left to get it to the market..
if they want my money...

30 days? screw that, they can keep the boards by then. I'm running happily on my Asus A8N-E. Just see sig. 1.55vcore is good enough. Due to its crappy heatspreader, increasing vcore is just going to cause more heat and stability issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LowRun

Hehe, we've been debating this for two pages now, wanted to give you the "Welcome to last week" smiley but was affraid you got upset :D

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Lol, you could go for it, would be totally true, i have been on holiday for the past 8 days so i am a week behind, have spent the past day reading around trying to catch up. I read a few posts up but didnt get to the caps bit.
:am: :lastweek: :p:

G

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LowRun

Well, thanks for clarifying cos' that puts Sapphire out of the equation for me, will have to wait for the new contender bigtoe mentioned and hope it will do better than Sapphire :rolleyes:

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my thoughts too...

i will not be putting my $1k CPU (FX-57) in a mobo with crap caps! :nono:

Tony (bigtoe),
any thoughts/comments? you havent posted since this "crap cap" info has come out...
do you know what caps this "mystery manufacturer" will use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe Camel

i will not be putting my $1k CPU (FX-57) in a mobo with crap caps! :nono:

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Yup! I consider the Motherboard to be the most important part of the computer (don't shoot me) it is the glue that holds all parts and is resposible for all the parts communicating properly, it is the very foundation of the system.

Swapping MB's is not something as eaisily done as a video card or stick of ram or CPU or soundcard or.... you get the idea.

My current system is so old I'm embarrassed to tell you what it is :( let me just tell you I purchased an ALI based MB from ASUS based on a THG review eons ago, turned out that chipset had timming / power issues with AGP.

I had and still run a Voodoo3 3000 in it because thats the only card that will actually run in this damned MB! no nVidia or ATI card Iv'e ever put in it would run, in 3d anyway. By the time I realized this board was an absolute POS it was too late the CPU's were no longer being sold and I could't afford to buy the 'new' system that was obviously required.

My point is the MB, not any other component is imho MUCH more important than any other component in the system. Sorry for the rant but right now i am pissed! I have been waiting for years to upgrade this damn thing and when I'm strung along the marketing machine BS I get uptight.

^^^ IMO, the PSU is the most import "quality" component for a stable [xtreme-ly] overclocked system.

But the motherboard is a very close second... :toast:

...followed by the memory ... and don't forget, a good CPU doesn't hurt... neither does a good h/f or watercooler... oh man :eek:

Guess my money is going towards dfi's version of grouper now or that other mystery one.... twiddle.